Classically Done...Thinking Charlotte Mason...

[FloridaMomTo5]

I thought we were a 'classical' family when it comes to which method of education suited us, however I'm starting to see that it is not the method for us. I'm thinking that Charlotte Mason might be a better approach. To any of you practicing Charlotte Mason out there... Am I right that in some aspects the classical method blends with the CM method? Some use of the trivium etc.

 

This might be the wrong venue to ask, but have any of you switched from classical to CM? If so can you give your advice on making the switch?

 

My oldest is 4th grade, and I have not been a true blue 'classical' approach mama so it shouldn't be too difficult, but any advice would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

[Macrina]

We use some CM in our Classical approach. For example we wait longer on formal grammar, we expect less writing and more narration for a little longer amount of time, though we start narration sooner then CM suggests. Right now we are doing less memorization at the moment, but honestly I thinking we have been more CM and are leaning more Classical as time goes on! lol! I think those are some of the biggest differences...Oh, CM doesn't care about Latin, as long as there is some language learning.

[Donna A.]

Have you ever looked at My Father's World? It's a blend of classical and CM, probably leaning more to the CM side than classical. Although some would say it's not CM "enough", but it works for me. I like the balance of "a little bit of everything". It's something I'd do on my own if I didn't have MFW already done for me, because I don't hold to any one person's philosophy of education, as there are pros and cons to every one. The most importance aspect for our family is the biblical worldview... the rest are just tools to accomplish the goal. :001_smile:

 

http://www.mfwbooks.com/philos.htm

[FloridaMomTo5]

Have you ever looked at My Father's World? It's a blend of classical and CM, probably leaning more to the CM side than classical. Although some would say it's not CM "enough", but it works for me.

 

Donna,

Do you think it is adequate for the older children? Most of the people I know who have used MFW say that they discontinue after the first few years of education. Why do you suppose this is?

[~blessedmom~]

I started MFW with an older child, and I think if you follow their suggestions it works just fine. If you just use the "straight curriculum" you might feel it lacking in some areas (for older students), but that's where you would use Progeny Press, Apologia science, and maybe more directed book basket books, for example.

 

I personally love the blend of CM and classical, and as I read somewhere the other day (can't remember exactly....newborn in the house!!)--it helps me to keep in perspective that I am trying to prepare them for Heaven and not Harvard.

[Donna A.]

Donna,

Do you think it is adequate for the older children? Most of the people I know who have used MFW say that they discontinue after the first few years of education. Why do you suppose this is?

 

It *seems* as if a lot of people quit after doing Adventures or ECC before they even get to the history cycle itself. Most classical people perceive MFW as being too "light". The younger years are very much CM style (or maybe even Ruth Beechick) with more hands-on and short lessons, and then the program "grows" with the child. Each year builds upon the previous year, as deeper reading, more writing and research assignments are added, and the content of the material itself is directed toward more mature students. I think there are a lot of people who don't even get to that stuff.

 

The other thing I've seen is that MFW is often compared with something more "classical" such as TOG or TWTM. If that's the case, then MFW is never going to "measure up", because it simply isn't classical in that sense. I think it all depends on what your goals are for your children, your family (as a whole), and what your definition of "classical" means. This can vary widely even among those who call themselves classical homeschoolers.

 

Oh, and one other observation... One of those that MFW is often compared with is Sonlight, which assigns TONS of books to be read in a week's and year's time. MFW doesn't do that. They have TONS of books listed in the Book Basket in the back of the TMs, but those are optional, to be done as time and interest allow. The scheduled readings are minimized to just the bare essentials for those families who simply don't have the time or the money to buy and do "required" reading of a cartful of books. That could be perceived as too "light". But as a MFW user, if we have a deeper interest in a particular topic, we can go to the Book Basket and either purchase or obtain from the library all the extra books and videos we want. (Most of the TMs contain 400+ optional resources, ALL of which have been pre-read by the author and/or her family.) However, when life is very hectic and time is short, it's good to know that we can get the essentials without a lot of frustration or feeling like we didn't complete what was assigned.

 

I have no qualms whatsoever about doing MFW with my 7th grader. There's some aspect of MFW that makes it a good perfect fit for each of my children, despite the age gaps and personality differences. Are they all alike? No. Do I do everything the same with each of my children? No. And that's as it should be. It did take me some time to figure this out, but that was ME, not the curriculum.

 

I always like to suggest that a person who's considering MFW go to their website, print off all the sample lessons for every year, and then read through them in order. This gives somewhat of a "bird's eye view" for what you'd be studying each year, and how it builds upon itself. Also, give the office a call if you have any specific questions that you just can't find the answers to. They're really wonderful to talk with, and will walk you through the whole thing.

 

The other thing to understand about MFW is that it's very biblically focused. It really is somewhat of a "discipleship" curriculum as much as a "history" curriculum. In MFW, you'll see that you really can't separate history and Bible as separate academic subjects. Science can be separated out a little easier, if you didn't want to do their science, but they have an awesome plan for that, too. Be sure to take a look at that as you're reading through the sample lessons from the website. Check and see if they're coming to a convention near you, too. Getting your hands on the material is the best way to really *see* it.

 

FYI: "Cadam" on this board uses MFW in a more classical way than we do. If you're interested in how, you might do a search for some of her posts.

[Amie]

Here is a great article by Susan Wise Bauer comparing Classical with Charlotte Mason's methods: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/charlottemason.html

 

You will find quite a few people on this board who blend CM with Classical.

[FloridaMomTo5]

Donna,

WOW!! Thank you for that very thorough review. I had not heard all those things about MFW until your post. Thanks, and they will be at my convention in April so I will definitely pay closer attention to them (as in the past I have just walked past the booth).

 

It's nice to hear moms like you talk about the difficult process you've gone through discovering what type of different educational needs your children have. It is definitely a frustration that I'm noticing we all face, but so often feel alone in.

 

Thanks again,

Beth

[Mom22ns]

I would have to admit to not being a true classical person. I am really quite eclectic if the truth be told. I love the CM concept, but I don't always think it is quite demanding enough. I don't follow a true classical approach (I don't teach latin and never will :D), however, I love many of the same curriculum approaches that are used by classical homeschoolers. I am a great believer in combining the best of more than one style. I will be using sonlight core 100 next year with my then 7th grader which says I obviously like some CM, but I think all my other subjects would have to fit closer to a classical approach and we are very rigorous doing a 7 hour school day with lots of writing (my sons weakness so we spend extra time there).

 

I love these boards and the great information I glean here. I do think you can combine styles and I do think even someone with a true CM heart can take a more classical approach in certain subjects or at certain times in a child's life. Either way, there is still much to learn here.

 

Debbie

[Jami]

I love the CM concept, but I don't always think it is quite demanding enough.

 

Have you read CM's original works Debbie? Or looked at the exams for what she expected children to know at age 9 or 12? CM, like classical education, seems to be defined or applied differently. As I read CM through a classical (classical languages, Great Books, educating for virtue) lens, I firmly believe Miss Mason *was* a classical educator. What else would she have known for true education at her time? Certainly she makes some changes based on her own observations and philosophy, like holding off on Latin until after age 9, as opposed to the younger ages more common at that time. I honestly don't see the huge dichotomy between the two approaches that some seem to. But that's because I don't understand CM to be particularly "laid back" or not demanding in the original writings and intent.

[HiddenJewel]

Wasn't CM a classical educator?

[Donna A.]

Have you read CM's original works Debbie? Or looked at the exams for what she expected children to know at age 9 or 12? CM, like classical education, seems to be defined or applied differently. As I read CM through a classical (classical languages, Great Books, educating for virtue) lens, I firmly believe Miss Mason *was* a classical educator. What else would she have known for true education at her time? Certainly she makes some changes based on her own observations and philosophy, like holding off on Latin until after age 9, as opposed to the younger ages more common at that time. I honestly don't see the huge dichotomy between the two approaches that some seem to. But that's because I don't understand CM to be particularly "laid back" or not demanding in the original writings and intent.

 

No, Miss Mason wasn't laid back at all! Many of us today may use many aspects of her philosophy in a somewhat laid back way, but she was NOT. I think the Ambleside curriculum reflects that. That's why I added in my post above that the younger years of MFW might be even be sort of Ruth Beechick style, because Miss Mason didn't do a lot of hands-on. Well, none, actually, during their morning academic time. Lessons were short, but very focused. Hands-on lessons in Miss Mason's schools consisted of outdoor nature studies, and many different kinds of handicrafts that could be used in real life.

[katilac]

Have you read CM's original works Debbie? Or looked at the exams for what she expected children to know at age 9 or 12? CM, like classical education, seems to be defined or applied differently. As I read CM through a classical (classical languages, Great Books, educating for virtue) lens, I firmly believe Miss Mason *was* a classical educator. What else would she have known for true education at her time? Certainly she makes some changes based on her own observations and philosophy, like holding off on Latin until after age 9, as opposed to the younger ages more common at that time. I honestly don't see the huge dichotomy between the two approaches that some seem to. But that's because I don't understand CM to be particularly "laid back" or not demanding in the original writings and intent.

 

:iagree:

 

I think many people regard CM incorrectly. Much of what comes to mind when we think "CM" really refers more to very young children, not older students.

 

I'm going from memory here, but students in the middle or certainly the upper grades did not have 15 minute lessons, and their afternoons weren't 'free' - - rather, they were free from what we might think of as book work or seat work. They were expected to spend a full morning on book work, with afternoons devoted to active but productive things like nature walks, music practice, etc.

 

The two things that do spring to mind as ongoing differences are the emphasis that CM puts on nature study and living books. The emphasis that SWB applies to 'story' in her SOTW history books is stressed in all subjects. It's a great approach - - we are currently reading "Jack's Insects," and I think they are likely to remember just as much as if we were working through a science text.

 

Keep in mind, though, that these differences are certainly not contrary to classical or WTM methods. It's just that WTM does not put the emphasis on them that CM does.

[Spock]

 

I think many people regard CM incorrectly. Much of what comes to mind when we think "CM" really refers more to very young children, not older students.

 

I'm going from memory here, but students in the middle or certainly the upper grades did not have 15 minute lessons, and their afternoons weren't 'free' - - rather, they were free from what we might think of as book work or seat work. They were expected to spend a full morning on book work, with afternoons devoted to active but productive things like nature walks, music practice, etc.

 

.

 

This is correct. I have been using mostly a CM approach for the past 3-4 years, and have read the 3 main volumes of CM's own writings as well as some books based on her approach. I have found that she recommends a much more rigorous approach than many of her adherents propose. (For example, many users of Ambleside Online delay written narrations until 10-12 years old, while CM suggests transitioning into them around age 8.)

 

For ages 6-8, CM recommends the well-known 15 minute lessons, copywork, and oral narrations. French was also taught at this level, along with basic subjects like arithmetic and learning to read.

 

However, for 9-12 year olds lessons increased to 20-30 minutes in most subjects, and students added written narrations, dictation, German, and Latin to the continuing oral narrations and copywork. Grammar was usually begun at some point during these years. Students were also expected to read most of their own books by this time (books like the unabridged Oliver Twist, Robinson Crusoe, and Shakespeare).

 

Students aged 13-18 had lessons averaging 45 minutes, and moved on to even more complex classics. They continued studies in French, Latin, and German, and added Italian. They also studied algebra and geometry, as well as continuing studies in history, nature, and science. Writing instruction was first introduced at this level, and very lightly.

 

I use a mixture of Ambleside Online and WTM, using WTM especially for language arts (writing, grammar, spelling) and for science. However, CM's own recommendations for upper levels are very similar to the ones in TWTM. (In fact, many of the book choices are the same.)

[hmschooling]

I have found myself in your shoes! And now I'm happy as can be after finding the perfect balance of Classical and CM. I use Heart of Dakota and add in some picture study (just got Go Fish For Art cards), some music study, and a foreign language (latin so far, looking for the next one). I'm using two levels of HOD right now and LOVE LOVE LOVE it! SHe has just begun her 4yr history cycle as well, with the first level available and the next 3 coming out one per year. It currently covers Pre-K up to 9th grade (if you use the last 8th grade guide and add geography and use the right level LA/Math it makes for a great freshman year!)

 

She does a great job of short lessons for the youngers, and building up in each guide to longer lessons and increased independence. It's wonderful! I will NEVER change from HOD. I have tried so so many curriculums and this one is just perfect for us.

 

She does use many of the Cathy Duffy's Top Picks and some well known WTM recommendations....Rod and Staff Grammar, Singapore Math, etc...but you still have freedom to use your own math, LA, phonics, to make it just right for you without messing up the flow of the whole thing. You can also combine kids or use seperate levels without over extending yourself. Her reading program IS a C.D. Top Pick!

 

http://www.heartofdakota.com

[LizzyBee]

Have you read CM's original works Debbie? Or looked at the exams for what she expected children to know at age 9 or 12? CM, like classical education, seems to be defined or applied differently. As I read CM through a classical (classical languages, Great Books, educating for virtue) lens, I firmly believe Miss Mason *was* a classical educator. What else would she have known for true education at her time? Certainly she makes some changes based on her own observations and philosophy, like holding off on Latin until after age 9, as opposed to the younger ages more common at that time. I honestly don't see the huge dichotomy between the two approaches that some seem to. But that's because I don't understand CM to be particularly "laid back" or not demanding in the original writings and intent.

 

:iagree: One of the founders of the Ambleside Online website has said that The Latin Centered Curriculum is the best application of CM that she's found in any modern homeschool books.

[Donna A.]

:iagree: One of the founders of the Ambleside Online website has said that The Latin Centered Curriculum is the best application of CM that she's found in any modern homeschool books.

 

Interesting! I was thinking very similarly today while I was on the treadmill and reading the chapter about Dickens in A Charlotte Mason Companion. :D

[Caroline4kids]

:iagree: One of the founders of the Ambleside Online website has said that The Latin Centered Curriculum is the best application of CM that she's found in any modern homeschool books.

 

:party:

 

I am so happy to hear that. I just was re-reading the LCC today after reading volumes 1 and 6 of Charlotte's writing over the weekend. I was so engrossed I couldn't put them down.:001_smile:

 

Anyway, I came to the conclusion today that LCC is very CM when compared to her original writings. Savoring a great book and studying latin grammar were a focal point of her curriculum during the "read to learn" stage.

 

I believe she differed on her approach to formal compostion, but in the later educational years I doubt she was light in her expectations.

 

It's nice to affirm the two can be blended. I have been having a bit of a problem keeping up my read aloud schedule.:tongue_smilie:

[Greta]

One of the founders of the Ambleside Online website has said that The Latin Centered Curriculum is the best application of CM that she's found in any modern homeschool books.

 

Wow, that's very interesting! I've been doing a lot of soul-searching and re-evaluating of my homeschooling recently (finding out my dd has ADD and listening to some John Taylor Gatto lectures were the inspirations behind this). I was reading Penny Gardener's guide to CM education, and I was thinking how the approach (thinking particularly of the art of narration) was not broad but deep, like the multum non multa principle that Drew talks about in LCC! I could see CM/LCC being tremendously beneficial for my dd and possibly other kids with ADD because it encourages such deep and focused attention on fewer worthy things, rather than a superficial attention divided among a lot of different topics.

 

I am enjoying Penny Gardner's guide, and I also have Karen Andreola's book (read it several years ago, but probably need a refresher). What else could the CM gurus out there recommend for me? :) Should I buckle down and read Mason's original works? I hate to admit it, but I tried once and found the task a bit daunting, and gave up. Might order the second edition of LCC too.

 

ETA: I'm also curious if there is an active online forum for discussion of CM education. I like the format of a message board, but if there's not a good one for CM, could anyone recommend a really good active Yahoo group?

Edited April 13, 2009 by GretaLynne

[LoveBaby]

ETA: I'm also curious if there is an active online forum for discussion of CM education. I like the format of a message board, but if there's not a good one for CM, could anyone recommend a really good active Yahoo group?

 

I haven't found an active message board to discuss CM education. I've thought about starting one, but dont' have the time or the know-how to do so. Ambleside Online has a very active yahoo group. Lots of really great mama's who've been there done that with their families using CM methods, so it's a wealth of information.

 

I just read LCC for the 2nd time this weekend, too and am trying to put it into a workable plan for our family. I might start a post regarding others thoughts on the same!

[Greta]

I haven't found an active message board to discuss CM education. I've thought about starting one, but dont' have the time or the know-how to do so. Ambleside Online has a very active yahoo group. Lots of really great mama's who've been there done that with their families using CM methods, so it's a wealth of information.

 

Thanks! I'll look for that. Would love to help you get a message board started, but I'm afraid I don't have the know-how either!

 

I just read LCC for the 2nd time this weekend, too and am trying to put it into a workable plan for our family. I might start a post regarding others thoughts on the same!

 

Sounds good!

[Stephanie/MO]

approach once we hit 6th grade. My kids have such a wide learning curve (many have read late) that classical was tough in the earlier grades.

Blessings,

Stephanie

[hmschooling]

We use a classically flavored, very CM curriculum that we LOVE!

 

http://www.heartofdakota.com

 

I'd talk it up some more here, but I'm short on time. I'll never switch from HOD! It's amazing! You'll have the best source of info by coming to the HOD boards where they are always ready to answer any questions you might have :001_smile:

[SilverMoon]

We use a pretty nice blend of classical and Charlotte Mason. Our roots are classical, and we've adopted many CM techniques/suggestions over time. I suggest you not subscribe fully to any one method or style of homeschooling, and do what suits your family best.:)

[SheWillFly]

I never really saw CM as a departure from classical education. Miss Mason was a classical educator. We are doing a blend of WTM and CM. It allows us to take what we feel are the strongest point of both and apply them to what we feel is the best fit for our children. I think when it comes to my youngest I will be exclusively CM because his needs are slightly different than my girls.

[Guest]

Silvermoon, would you mind elaborating on what ya'll do? I am curious.

[Ummto4]

We're using Ambleside Online (year 1 and some 0.5) for my first grade son. We are going to finish off year 1 next year when he's second grade.

 

I don't know why people often think CM is laid back/not rigorous because I think AO curriculum IS demanding. It really has a good effect on my son's language capability, though. His comprehension and story-telling skills increase a lot. Mind you, he's a language-delayed child.

 

I sometimes ask him to just make up stories and he is capable in retelling classic stories with different endings/different characters, etc. I sometimes also ask him to tell him a particular story from a different point of view and he can do it well. I'm so glad with his language development.

 

Now onto the classical stuff. Although CM did not necessarily prescribe to three stages of learning, she did teach Latin. In fact, her twelve year old students weree taught Latin, German and French. She also taught history chronologically although with AO, the rotation happpens every 6 years. Talk about savoring history. :001_smile:

[Caroline4kids]

Wow, that's very interesting! I've been doing a lot of soul-searching and re-evaluating of my homeschooling recently (finding out my dd has ADD and listening to some John Taylor Gatto lectures were the inspirations behind this). I was reading Penny Gardener's guide to CM education, and I was thinking how the approach (thinking particularly of the art of narration) was not broad but deep, like the multum non multa principle that Drew talks about in LCC! I could see CM/LCC being tremendously beneficial for my dd and possibly other kids with ADD because it encourages such deep and focused attention on fewer worthy things, rather than a superficial attention divided among a lot of different topics.

 

I am enjoying Penny Gardner's guide, and I also have Karen Andreola's book (read it several years ago, but probably need a refresher). What else could the CM gurus out there recommend for me? :) Should I buckle down and read Mason's original works? I hate to admit it, but I tried once and found the task a bit daunting, and gave up. Might order the second edition of LCC too.

 

ETA: I'm also curious if there is an active online forum for discussion of CM education. I like the format of a message board, but if there's not a good one for CM, could anyone recommend a really good active Yahoo group?

 

I finally read the volumes and they are not as daunting as I thought they would be. Her language can be tough I'll admit, but she also has some very down-to-earth stories that are pretty easy to get the gist of. I just read volumes 1 and 6. The first covers her philosophy and the 6th (which was written 40 years later) really shows how it was honed over those years.

 

I wish I had read them years ago because every other book is an interpretation of her works. I gleaned so much more of the "big picture" by just buckling down and doing it.

[Mommyfaithe]

OH...It just drives me absolutely NUTS when I hear CM described as "light." OY VEY!!!! I could only HOPE to give my children a Charlotee Mason Classical Education...but alas...I am a mom who cooks and cleans and works full time too. I don't have a nanny dedicated to tutoring my students, so they get the best I can give them...which is a CM education to the best of my ability. CM didn't believe in drill and kill...she believed in listen and learn it the first time...or "it is so sad...poor you missed out on a really good story. I guess you will listen better next time." She DID belive in fact drill...a combination of phonics AND sight reading, memory recitation, reading the "classics" in their full form early...Shakespeare, Plutarch, Greek Myths, etc. in short sessions stretched out so the student could THINK about the stories they were reading.

 

I think CM is classical and effective. It is tolerated well by children (although AO recommends NOT starting on a full curriculum until your child is at least 6 which I agree with.) BUT, children were expected to be able to read, answer sums, recite Bibke passages, tell Aesop fables, recognize plants, landmarks etc in their home area, (see attainments of a child of 6.) Therefore, it is my feeling that younger children were taught during teachable moments. There must have been a lesson time in the nursery as well. I love reading how CM taught children to read. She would spend the day teaching them all their letters with blocks...and found the child that took 2 days quite slow. LOL.....

 

I could go on and on! PLEASE..read CM's own writings. Don't take someone else's interpretation and watering down of her ideas as CM. The books are thick and dense wiith ideas. They are great summer teacher training. I read a volume or 2 each summer (as well as my old falling apart WTM) to get me ready for fall. I learn new things each year.

 

enjoy~~

Faithe

[Amber in AUS]

OH...It just drives me absolutely NUTS when I hear CM described as "light." OY VEY!!!! I could only HOPE to give my children a Charlotee Mason Classical Education...but alas...I am a mom who cooks and cleans and works full time too. I don't have a nanny dedicated to tutoring my students, so they get the best I can give them...which is a CM education to the best of my ability. CM didn't believe in drill and kill...she believed in listen and learn it the first time...or "it is so sad...poor you missed out on a really good story. I guess you will listen better next time." She DID belive in fact drill...a combination of phonics AND sight reading, memory recitation, reading the "classics" in their full form early...Shakespeare, Plutarch, Greek Myths, etc. in short sessions stretched out so the student could THINK about the stories they were reading.

 

I think CM is classical and effective. It is tolerated well by children (although AO recommends NOT starting on a full curriculum until your child is at least 6 which I agree with.) BUT, children were expected to be able to read, answer sums, recite Bibke passages, tell Aesop fables, recognize plants, landmarks etc in their home area, (see attainments of a child of 6.) Therefore, it is my feeling that younger children were taught during teachable moments. There must have been a lesson time in the nursery as well. I love reading how CM taught children to read. She would spend the day teaching them all their letters with blocks...and found the child that took 2 days quite slow. LOL.....

 

I could go on and on! PLEASE..read CM's own writings. Don't take someone else's interpretation and watering down of her ideas as CM. The books are thick and dense wiith ideas. They are great summer teacher training. I read a volume or 2 each summer (as well as my old falling apart WTM) to get me ready for fall. I learn new things each year.

 

enjoy~~

Faithe

 

Great post, thanks!!

[Greta]

PLEASE..read CM's own writings. Don't take someone else's interpretation and watering down of her ideas as CM. The books are thick and dense wiith ideas. They are great summer teacher training. I read a volume or 2 each summer (as well as my old falling apart WTM) to get me ready for fall. I learn new things each year.

 

enjoy~~

Faithe

 

Ooh, summer teacher training. I like that idea!

[stripe]

I finally read vol 1 and 6, and I was surprised by a few things and totally disagreed with others, but I found other suggestions of hers to be very inspiring and broad-minded. And I got much more out of vol 6 than vol 1.

 

As an example, I don't understand (since she doesn't really say) how the English students who speak French for 1 hr a week, speak it fluently with complete understanding. I also found her discussion of mathematics to be dismissive, at best (her view seems to be that there is no real purpose for anyone but specialists to know more math than to get by, and she did not have very imaginative teaching strategies, and seemed to find math textbooks to be perfectly adequate). My reaction brought to mind SWB's discussion of science in her article about CM and classical.

 

The trouble I have with some people who discuss CM is a sort of fawning bordering on worship where you must embrace the entirety of her suggestions on all aspects of your life instead of "just" following a curriculum, as if it is a faith rather than an educational approach. Which is why I was turned off by the Ambleside type approach and message groups.

 

I love to see CM brought to the 21st century. I don't think it is at all rooted in the Victorian era, so I am downright tired of CM-style things with the "cherubic" style drawings of young British children, the outright rejection of any book written in the last 50 years, and so forth.

[Donna A.]

As an example, I don't understand (since she doesn't really say) how the English students who speak French for 1 hr a week, speak it fluently with complete understanding.

 

My understanding of this was because in their culture and time period, most people did know and speak French fluently. Isn't it still true today that most native Europeans know at least 2-3 languages, partially if not fully? This wouldn't be so different than certain parts of America today where Spanish is used daily.

 

I also found her discussion of mathematics to be dismissive, at best (her view seems to be that there is no real purpose for anyone but specialists to know more math than to get by,

I think that was actually true at the time.

 

See "Research on the Teaching of Math" at: http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/research_on_teaching_math.php

[Donna A.]

The trouble I have with some people who discuss CM is a sort of fawning bordering on worship where you must embrace the entirety of her suggestions on all aspects of your life instead of "just" following a curriculum, as if it is a faith rather than an educational approach. Which is why I was turned off by the Ambleside type approach and message groups.

 

While this may be true for some people, isn't it just as true of some who "follow" SWB or Doug Wilson or Dorothy Sayers or name-your-favorite-educator/theologian/ancient philosopher?

 

I love to see CM brought to the 21st century. I don't think it is at all rooted in the Victorian era, so I am downright tired of CM-style things with the "cherubic" style drawings of young British children, the outright rejection of any book written in the last 50 years, and so forth.

I believe there are several modernized CM-style products on the market now. The Apologia Elementary science books, A Child's Geography, and English for the Thoughtful Child (more up-to-date in content than PLL and ILL, for example) are just a few off the top of my head. Simply Charlotte Mason and Tanglewood are two websites that I know of offhand that are more modernized than Ambleside. I think the comments stating that "Charlotte Mason wasn't an unschooler," and "Charlotte Mason didn't give a light education" are, in fact, in direct response to those who HAVE tried to make it more modern.... which seems to be exactly what you're asking for. ;)

[Caroline4kids]

 

I believe there are several modernized CM-style products on the market now. The Apologia Elementary science books, A Child's Geography, and English for the Thoughtful Child (more up-to-date in content than PLL and ILL, for example) are just a few off the top of my head. Simply Charlotte Mason and Tanglewood are two websites that I know of offhand that are more modernized than Ambleside. I think the comments stating that "Charlotte Mason wasn't an unschooler," and "Charlotte Mason didn't give a light education" are, in fact, in direct response to those who HAVE tried to make it more modern.... which seems to be exactly what you're asking for. ;)

 

I use the Simply Charlotte Mason organizer every day. I love that I can plug many modern living books into the organizer along with how I want the kids to execute the lesson.

 

I was turned off to CM for a while in the beginning because I wanted some more modern stories. Now I use her methods exclusively, but with Sonlight books and other treasures I find along the way.

[stripe]

My understanding of this was because in their culture and time period, most people did know and speak French fluently. Isn't it still true today that most native Europeans know at least 2-3 languages, partially if not fully?

I am not sure about that; maybe in Switzerland and Belgium, but I don't think most British people are today or were in the past. In her books she talks about her method for teaching young children French, which involved a governess type and teaching a few words a day, so I don't understand how leap to being bilingual was accomplished with older students. The section of the book is really vague.

 

Perhaps it is the case that some followers of Sayers/Socrates/whatever educational theorists are cultish, but I hadn't really seen anyone depict a particular lifestyle quite so much as some CM people. SWB does note this herself:

At least half of Karen Andreola’s book on Charlotte Mason methods is devoted to issues which aren’t strictly educational; discipline, preventing bickering, hand-crafts, making lace, mother culture, etc. These chapters certainly aren’t pro- or con- classical education.

[Caroline4kids]

 

Perhaps it is the case that some followers of Sayers/Socrates/whatever educational theorists are cultish, but I hadn't really seen anyone depict a particular lifestyle quite so much as some CM people. SWB does note this herself:

 

 

One of the reasons for this is that CM focused a great deal of her volumes on the foundation that allows for maximum learning to take place. If you haven't read the original volumes it is hard to understand this. The formation of habit, instant obedience, focused attention, etc are things that come out of the classroom proper and spill into daily life. Learning these skills preceded any formal lessons.

 

CM is a way of life before children start formal academics. These skills are then applied once formal education starts. It is hard to teach children who cannot focus on a lesson or who are slovenly. She incrementally showed parents how to lay a foundation for joyful learning.

 

SWB,Sayers/Socrates/ etc. do not touch on child rearing in their philosophies to the extent that CM does. That is why Andreola covered these things. CM is really a way of life.

 

I don't believe it is cultish, but it does play in to how I discipline and deal with my children. Maybe this broad range application can be misconstued by the casual observer. Reading her writings has helped me to understand them more, as people, and create a better environment for learning.

[dragons in the flower bed]

As an example, I don't understand (since she doesn't really say) how the English students who speak French for 1 hr a week, speak it fluently with complete understanding.

 

It's because the language is reinforced through the everyday experiences of any one living the wealthy British Victorian lifestyle (and even not wealthy). In some places nowadays, in the U.S., this is true of Spanish. My kids overhear Spanish on the neighborhood playground. Television characters speak both languages, or at least use a Spanish phrase now and then. We have many fluent relatives. Packages are labeled in English and Spanish. There are signs up in Spanish all over the place.

[Donna A.]

One of the reasons for this is that CM focused a great deal of her volumes on the foundation that allows for maximum learning to take place. If you haven't read the original volumes it is hard to understand this. The formation of habit, instant obedience, focused attention, etc are things that come out of the classroom proper and spill into daily life. Learning these skills preceded any formal lessons.

 

CM is a way of life before children start formal academics. These skills are then applied once formal education starts. It is hard to teach children who cannot focus on a lesson or who are slovenly. She incrementally showed parents how to lay a foundation for joyful learning.

 

SWB,Sayers/Socrates/ etc. do not touch on child rearing in their philosophies to the extent that CM does. That is why Andreola covered these things. CM is really a way of life.

 

I don't believe it is cultish, but it does play in to how I discipline and deal with my children. Maybe this broad range application can be misconstued by the casual observer. Reading her writings has helped me to understand them more, as people, and create a better environment for learning.

 

:iagree:

 

CM did deal with a lot more issues in the home -- relationships between parent and child, obedience, habit training, attentiveness, religious training, etc. -- than do the other educators mentioned. Note that Volumes 2, 4 and 5 of her 6-book series are titled:

 

"Parents and Children"

"Ourselves" and

"Formation of Character", respectively.

[Mommyfaithe]

I finally read vol 1 and 6, and I was surprised by a few things and totally disagreed with others, but I found other suggestions of hers to be very inspiring and broad-minded. And I got much more out of vol 6 than vol 1.

 

As an example, I don't understand (since she doesn't really say) how the English students who speak French for 1 hr a week, speak it fluently with complete understanding. I also found her discussion of mathematics to be dismissive, at best (her view seems to be that there is no real purpose for anyone but specialists to know more math than to get by, and she did not have very imaginative teaching strategies, and seemed to find math textbooks to be perfectly adequate). My reaction brought to mind SWB's discussion of science in her article about CM and classical.

 

The trouble I have with some people who discuss CM is a sort of fawning bordering on worship where you must embrace the entirety of her suggestions on all aspects of your life instead of "just" following a curriculum, as if it is a faith rather than an educational approach. Which is why I was turned off by the Ambleside type approach and message groups.

 

I love to see CM brought to the 21st century. I don't think it is at all rooted in the Victorian era, so I am downright tired of CM-style things with the "cherubic" style drawings of young British children, the outright rejection of any book written in the last 50 years, and so forth.

 

 

I agree with you. I am not looking at CM with a Victorian attitude...I am not the syruppy type....nor am I sentimental for times where children worked in factories and women had no civil rights.... I think we have so many great advantages over the people of CM's era. We can bring the symphony home...play it on our DVD player ...in sensurround...on our flat screen tv. we can surf the net to take virtual field trips to Rome...or China...or the pyramids. We can read primary source documents at the press of a button...we can can view & study art, listen to music, read the classics, pull up a study guide if we are having trouble...find a discussion about the book in a web neighborhood and then blog about it. We are really BLESSED!!!

 

I do not understand the CM "lifestyle" or "worship" either. Seems to me that idolizing movie stars or educators, or whatever...people can get carried away especially if they are not self confident to stand up on their own and do their own thing. Herd instinct and all. I love CM and follow her closer than you do sort of cr@p. LOL :tongue_smilie: GAG!

 

That said, I think we can take CM's ideas (like Susan Bauers) and toss them around and come to some educational truths. History in cycles to build on past learning (6 year or 4 year?? Personnally I like 2 5 year with 1 year Geography for my littles and 1 year Missionary/ Chuch History for my olders.)

 

Latin, Logic, copywork/ Dictation...albeit debateable in its focus (handwriting or grammar/language study ala Beechick?)

 

Foreign languages..picture study...oral narration...written narration...music appreciation...

 

These are the "subjects" of an educated well rounded person. These are subjects that I would like my children to continue well into adulthood. I want my children to spend their lives being excited by new discoveries and basking in classics too. I want them to be able to listen to Handel's Messiah or Stravinski's Firebird Suite with the same enthusiasm they show when they listen to Queen or Frank Zappa or the Grateful Dead. I want them to fall in love with Rembrandt, Monet and Salvador Dali.

 

 

 

 

I am sure, if you ask Susan, (or Jessie for that matter,) if their educational ideas and theories all match the reality of "in the trenches" homeschooling, and I know that their ideas and discoveries of educational theory developes and changes as time goes on...hence the 3rd edition of the WTM. CM's ideas developed over the course of her lifetime and I am sure they would have continued to develope if she had lived longer. I know 14 years ago I had visions of prairie bonnets, McGuffey readers, poetry under the stars and dreamily reading literature to our hearts delight. UM...REALITY CHECK!!! My kids are definitely children of this century. I am a woman who likes some creature comforts and am not real good at subjection..LOL. We live in a time where mathematics is essential to higher learning, college is no longer optional if you want success, job security is nil, we do not have the affluence for nannies and boarding schools, nurseries with tutors while we march in the newest suffragette protest.

Our lifestyle and culture have changed dramatically over the past century or so, but CM's educational discoveries and developements can still be very relevant. Her insight into the brain and the mind of the child fascinate me. I giggle at some of her health suggestions.

 

When we read CM's work, it is important to place her in the culture in which she lives and try to find how that could translate into our own particular situations. We can't just toss the baby with the bath water and say...oh...she is so old fashioned and I am not...therefore her work in irrelevant to me.

 

For an example...when doing an artist study, I can use my desktop in the kitchen to display one work, my refrigerator can hang another, I can print bookmarks for my kiddoes with artist prints. We can watch a DVD about the artist. I have made book covers, stickers with my printer etc. She didn't have these tools...BUT I DO...and I can use her method of artist immersion using the tools of TODAY.

 

I need to run, but I will say it again..PLEASE ...read CM's books for yourself. Don't accept anyone else's rendition of what a CM education "should" look like as it seems they seem to me to be a basically watered down neo classical education. The exception is Ambleside online which has endeavored tirelessy to provide a curriculum as close to CM as possible, for FREE, using many books available for free. AO gives the framework for an excellent education with enough wiggle room to modernize and make it your own. I use many of the WTM's ideas along with AO...like the procedure for reading and summarizing books.

 

After reading CM...take a trip over to AO and feast on the many articles put out by the Parents Review magazine. Again...summer teacher training at its best...and again...it's free

[FO4UR]

I agree with you. I am not looking at CM with a Victorian attitude...I am not the syruppy type....nor am I sentimental for times where children worked in factories and women had no civil rights.... I think we have so many great advantages over the people of CM's era. We can bring the symphony home...play it on our DVD player ...in sensurround...on our flat screen tv. we can surf the net to take virtual field trips to Rome...or China...or the pyramids. We can read primary source documents at the press of a button...we can can view & study art, listen to music, read the classics, pull up a study guide if we are having trouble...find a discussion about the book in a web neighborhood and then blog about it. We are really BLESSED!!!

 

I do not understand the CM "lifestyle" or "worship" either. Seems to me that idolizing movie stars or educators, or whatever...people can get carried away especially if they are not self confident to stand up on their own and do their own thing. Herd instinct and all. I love CM and follow her closer than you do sort of cr@p. LOL :tongue_smilie: GAG!

 

That said, I think we can take CM's ideas (like Susan Bauers) and toss them around and come to some educational truths. History in cycles to build on past learning (6 year or 4 year?? Personnally I like 2 5 year with 1 year Geography for my littles and 1 year Missionary/ Chuch History for my olders.)

 

Latin, Logic, copywork/ Dictation...albeit debateable in its focus (handwriting or grammar/language study ala Beechick?)

 

Foreign languages..picture study...oral narration...written narration...music appreciation...

 

These are the "subjects" of an educated well rounded person. These are subjects that I would like my children to continue well into adulthood. I want my children to spend their lives being excited by new discoveries and basking in classics too. I want them to be able to listen to Handel's Messiah or Stravinski's Firebird Suite with the same enthusiasm they show when they listen to Queen or Frank Zappa or the Grateful Dead. I want them to fall in love with Rembrandt, Monet and Salvador Dali.

 

 

 

 

I am sure, if you ask Susan, (or Jessie for that matter,) if their educational ideas and theories all match the reality of "in the trenches" homeschooling, and I know that their ideas and discoveries of educational theory developes and changes as time goes on...hence the 3rd edition of the WTM. CM's ideas developed over the course of her lifetime and I am sure they would have continued to develope if she had lived longer. I know 14 years ago I had visions of prairie bonnets, McGuffey readers, poetry under the stars and dreamily reading literature to our hearts delight. UM...REALITY CHECK!!! My kids are definitely children of this century. I am a woman who likes some creature comforts and am not real good at subjection..LOL. We live in a time where mathematics is essential to higher learning, college is no longer optional if you want success, job security is nil, we do not have the affluence for nannies and boarding schools, nurseries with tutors while we march in the newest suffragette protest.

Our lifestyle and culture have changed dramatically over the past century or so, but CM's educational discoveries and developements can still be very relevant. Her insight into the brain and the mind of the child fascinate me. I giggle at some of her health suggestions.

 

When we read CM's work, it is important to place her in the culture in which she lives and try to find how that could translate into our own particular situations. We can't just toss the baby with the bath water and say...oh...she is so old fashioned and I am not...therefore her work in irrelevant to me.

 

For an example...when doing an artist study, I can use my desktop in the kitchen to display one work, my refrigerator can hang another, I can print bookmarks for my kiddoes with artist prints. We can watch a DVD about the artist. I have made book covers, stickers with my printer etc. She didn't have these tools...BUT I DO...and I can use her method of artist immersion using the tools of TODAY.

 

I need to run, but I will say it again..PLEASE ...read CM's books for yourself. Don't accept anyone else's rendition of what a CM education "should" look like as it seems they seem to me to be a basically watered down neo classical education. The exception is Ambleside online which has endeavored tirelessy to provide a curriculum as close to CM as possible, for FREE, using many books available for free. AO gives the framework for an excellent education with enough wiggle room to modernize and make it your own. I use many of the WTM's ideas along with AO...like the procedure for reading and summarizing books.

 

After reading CM...take a trip over to AO and feast on the many articles put out by the Parents Review magazine. Again...summer teacher training at its best...and again...it's free

 

Thanks for that post! :001_smile:

[stripe]

It's because the language is reinforced through the everyday experiences of any one living the wealthy British Victorian lifestyle (and even not wealthy). In some places nowadays, in the U.S., this is true of Spanish. My kids overhear Spanish on the neighborhood playground. Television characters speak both languages, or at least use a Spanish phrase now and then. We have many fluent relatives. Packages are labeled in English and Spanish. There are signs up in Spanish all over the place.

I am not an expert on the Victorian lifestyle, so I can't determine the ways that such people may have assimilated French, but one hour per week is not an ideal way to teach or reinforce a language. I'm all for short lessons and so forth, but modern research on bilingualism and language acquisition strongly shows that quantity really is important. The recent book Raising a Bilingual Child by Barbara Zurer Pearson is my favorite on this topic.

 

My kids are bilingual. I firmly believe that with only one hour per week of their other language, it will atrophy. (It's happened in the past but was regenerated.) I know that with much more than one hour per week, I am nowhere near fluent.

 

Originally Posted by Caroline4kids

One of the reasons for this is that CM focused a great deal of her volumes on the foundation that allows for maximum learning to take place. If you haven't read the original volumes it is hard to understand this.

Well, I have read them, as I previously stated. I don't agree with everything she says but I still think there are things to be gained from reading her and following some aspects of her educational philosophy.

 

There are people who are not Protestant Christians who follow her philosophy, for that matter, such as the Catholic founders of Mater Amabilis, as well as atheists, secular types, and people who are not Christian. There are surely other ways that someone can be "allowed" to benefit without the predictable commentary about anyone who dares to question the esteemed writings -- suggesting that if I disagree, I must not understand OR I must not have read, just sort of proves my point. That was why I distanced myself from CM people in the past. I found it cultish.

 

I reject the idea that we must only wear wool outergarments, we must turn down our bedsheets to air out the bed upon rising each morn, our babies must wear a cotton gown while we frollick outside during nature study, we must install a clothesline in the bedroom for airing out nightclothes, and we must comb our hair before breakfast in order to believe that a child is a person with dignity, and so forth. I think it is possible to separate some things out.

Edited April 16, 2009 by stripe

[mcconnellboys]

I always call myself eclectic because I've always combined elements of classical and CM styles. Sure, you can pick and choose whatever best suits your family, that's the beauty of homeschooling!

[Mommyfaithe]

>>>>Well, I have read them, as I previously stated. I don't agree with everything she says but I still think there are things to be gained from reading her and following some aspects of her educational philosophy.

 

There are people who are not Protestant Christians who follow her philosophy, for that matter, such as the Catholic founders of Mater Amabilis, as well as atheists, secular types, and people who are not Christian. There are surely other ways that someone can be "allowed" to benefit without the predictable commentary about anyone who dares to question the esteemed writings -- suggesting that if I disagree, I must not understand OR I must not have read, just sort of proves my point. That was why I distanced myself from CM people in the past. I found it cultish.

 

I reject the idea that we must only wear wool outergarments, we must turn down our bedsheets to air out the bed upon rising each morn, our babies must wear a cotton gown while we frollick outside during nature study, we must install a clothesline in the bedroom for airing out nightclothes, and we must comb our hair before breakfast in order to believe that a child is a person with dignity, and so forth. I think it is possible to separate some things out.

 

<<<<<<

 

 

LOL...I agree with you. The only thing that tick me off more than "CM is light," is the mistaken belief that i hold my opinions because I am somewhat misinformed. I have a TERRIBLE habit of questioning "esteemed" writings... I stay away from many homeschool groups because of that assumption.:D One group thinks I am too Christian..one not Christian enough. One group thinks I am too academic...the other that I am letting my kids fail....I am not out to please the herd, just get through this journey of life with some happiness and maybe some aquired wisdom to pass on. I think there is a lot of "cultish" or "herdish" behavior out there...and I agree that just because you find some of her theories out there...there is so much else to glean...eat the meat and spit out the bones ...so to speak.

 

And the health habits that made me laugh.....well...you pegged them!

Thanks for the giggle there....

 

But...just because there are some over-zealous CM fans doesn't mean you need to disregard the good parts. I think CM would have been the first to agree she didn't have it all figured out...and that she was living, observing and learning too.

 

Have a great night!

Faithe (who really needed to have an interesting conversation tonight after filling out all our financial aid paperwork for 2 students and finding out that we aren't getting any $$$$....sheesh!)

[Caroline4kids]

LOL...I agree with you. The only thing that tick me off more than "CM is light," is the mistaken belief that i hold my opinions because I am somewhat misinformed. I have a TERRIBLE habit of questioning "esteemed" writings... I stay away from many homeschool groups because of that assumption.:D One group thinks I am too Christian..one not Christian enough. One group thinks I am too academic...the other that I am letting my kids fail....I am not out to please the herd, just get through this journey of life with some happiness and maybe some aquired wisdom to pass on. I think there is a lot of "cultish" or "herdish" behavior out there...and I agree that just because you find some of her theories out there...there is so much else to glean...eat the meat and spit out the bones ...so to speak.

 

 

 

:iagree:

This speaks volumes. Everyone who reads her original works is going to get different things out of them and the degree to which they may employ those methods will differ. Some with hate it. That is ok, as with anything else, but it can cause strife if you are vocal about it.

 

Homeschool moms can occasionally be a catty bunch. No one likes people passing judgement on their enthusiasm for a particular method....or religion...or political party. It is a sensitive area. It is personal. We, probably more than most educators, weigh ever choice we make with a heavy heart. What we do matters intimately to us and our families.

 

I don't like the CM method being trashed because someone had a bad vibe or experience with someone claiming to use this method. Like most things, there are two sides to every story.

 

I agree with really reading the original works with a modern interpretation. The times change, but human nature doesn't and so many things are still applicable if you can process them through a modern lens.

[Caroline4kids]

II reject the idea that we must only wear wool outergarments, we must turn down our bedsheets to air out the bed upon rising each morn, our babies must wear a cotton gown while we frollick outside during nature study, we must install a clothesline in the bedroom for airing out nightclothes, and we must comb our hair before breakfast in order to believe that a child is a person with dignity, and so forth. I think it is possible to separate some things out.

 

I guess I've never met another CMer who actually did these things. The ladies I visit with just laugh and look at it as a neat commentary of the times. I love the Austen novels for the same reason.

 

Now if someone said you were not using her methods unless you did those things you mentioned---I would back away veeery slowly, and then run. :001_smile:

 

My farmhouse was built in 1870. It is a couple miles from the Walnut Grove of Little House fame and there is a dug out they lived in at the end of the driveway. It looks like any house would from that era--taken right from the pages of Laura's books. We modernized the house, but it still looks victorian from the outside. I have no intention of building fires to keep warm and butchering my own animals ( well, I'll get back to you on that with the current economic status...) in order to keep it authentic, but I can appreciate it's history and preserve the flavor of the farm.

 

I will do the CM method, but it is the high speed wireless and huge capacity washing machine variety.;)

[fivekiwis]

CW with WTM. This thread has been super helpful -- thanks! For me one of the nice things about being aware of different approaches to classical schooling is that if my aproach to home schooling doesn't fit EXACTLY with a certain method, then I don't have to feel like a failure:confused:. It's good to remember that there are many good paths to a good education. As others have been saying, flexibility and adaptability, as well as staying informed, are key. This thread has inspired me to read CM's writings! Thanks again!:)

[stripe]

I guess I've never met another CMer who actually did these things. The ladies I visit with just laugh and look at it as a neat commentary of the times. I love the Austen novels for the same reason.

 

Now if someone said you were not using her methods unless you did those things you mentioned---I would back away veeery slowly, and then run. :001_smile:

....

I will do the CM method, but it is the high speed wireless and huge capacity washing machine variety.;)

:) Me too. I have really enjoyed this thread. Like I said, I found many things inspiring about her writings, but other things just didn't seem relevant, and I'd hate to dump everything about her because "you're either with CM or against her!". (Reminds me of the morning beetles in "Grasshopper on the Road"!)

[Greta]

I need to run, but I will say it again..PLEASE ...read CM's books for yourself. Don't accept anyone else's rendition of what a CM education "should" look like as it seems they seem to me to be a basically watered down neo classical education. The exception is Ambleside online which has endeavored tirelessy to provide a curriculum as close to CM as possible, for FREE, using many books available for free. AO gives the framework for an excellent education with enough wiggle room to modernize and make it your own. I use many of the WTM's ideas along with AO...like the procedure for reading and summarizing books.

 

After reading CM...take a trip over to AO and feast on the many articles put out by the Parents Review magazine. Again...summer teacher training at its best...and again...it's free

 

I loved your whole post, well this whole conversation! I definitely will read CM herself, and I'll look at AO more closely as well. I've browsed it before, just looking for suggestions for good literature to read aloud to my daughter. But I'll look at it with more of an eye for using it as our curriculum. They may have articles about this already there (I need to go look) but would you have any advice for someone transitioning into CM and AO? Where to begin? My dd will be in 4th next year, and we've done a mostly WTM-style homeschool up until now, though with less emphasis on Language Arts than what SWB recommends, and more on art and science since that's where my dd's interests lie.

 

ETA: Also thinking of using Language Lessons for the Elementary Child from Queen's homeschool, and welcome any feedback on that.

[Caroline4kids]

 

ETA: Also thinking of using Language Lessons for the Elementary Child from Queen's homeschool, and welcome any feedback on that.

 

We use the Queen's Language Lessons and my 9, almost 10 year old, is using the book you mentioned above. It is very gentle and he likes it a lot. I also add studied dictation (Spelling Wisdom from Simply Charlotte Mason) and he writes a narration each week on something he enjoyed reading. I don't edit these yet. They are just for practice.

 

When my kids turn 10 I add in formal grammar, but Queen's has enough for now.

 

Oh, my kids LOVE the picture studies. It is really a unique thing for language arts.