I'm discouraged over my ds's attitude (long). Encouragement needed, please!

[Janna]

I could really use that missing instruction manual for parents.

 

My 7yo ds really has dh and me baffled. We just don't know what to do. We're trying to understand his attitude so we can steer him in the right direction. Part of me thinks he's angry, but I have no clue what he could be angry about, except that he's a middle child. I mean, honestly, he has everything he could want or need and he has a family who loves him immensely. I have to keep in mind his age, but it's difficult because he acts so much older.

 

To him, everything is "not fair". He doesn't understand what fair means, but I know there are a lot of adults who don't understand it either. He can't seem to think beyond himself - he's very selfish and thinks he alone is deserving of everything. He likes to go to extremes when he's upset. For instance, if he's in trouble for something and is sent to his room, he will scream, "Fine! Then I'm not having breakfast, lunch or dinner EVER AGAIN!" and then slams his door.:confused: It's funny, and it always makes me laugh when he goes to extremes that have nothing to do with anything, but at the same time, it's disturbing.

 

He takes advantage of his sister, telling her what to do, when and how to do it. And she takes it. We have talked to her over and over again about her need to stand up for herself, or at the very least to get one of us when he's bullying (and yes, I think that's what it has become), but she just doesn't want to. She thinks we need to show people mercy and she remembers the golden rule. I see a future of being married to an abusive person sometimes, to be honest. We explain to her that it's helping him to continue to act that way - that without meaning to, she's enabling him to treat her poorly. She understands that when we talk to her, but it doesn't change the way she reacts when he's bossy.

 

About a week ago, we had gotten a lot of snow. The first major snowfall of the season for us. Ds was sick, so he had to stay inside, but dd and dh were outside. Dh was shoveling and dd was making a snowman and his "wife". All day long, ds was bemoaning the fact that it wasn't fair that she was outside and he was inside. I asked him if it would be fair of me to tell her to come inside just because he couldn't be outside? He said "no, but still, it's not fair", and then proceeded to "negotiate" with me (which I hate, don't ever fall for, and don't know why he thinks he can do this): "Fine! I'll stay inside, but then I get to watch movies all day long and she can't!" or "Fine! I'll stay inside, but then when she comes in, she can't go outside ever again!" It's ridiculous.

 

So two days ago, ds was better, but dd was sick. Lo and behold, dd had to stay inside while ds was outside! Did this click with him? Not only did it NOT click with him, but he proceeded to march over to her snowman and snowwoman and destroy them. This is like 5 days after the fact! So when he came in, all cold and wet, dh made him go back outside and build her a new snowman and snowwoman. He cried and cried and threw a fit and said "that isn't fair!" but we didn't back down. He made them, but poorly and with anger.

 

Yesterday, I took ds and dd to run some errands with me while dh stayed home with sick baby. They got a sucker at Trader Joes (because they found the monkey...does your Trade Joes do that?) and ds asked if he could have the sucker right then. I said, "no, you need to wait. We're going home and having dinner and then you may have it". He was all mad and asked why and I told him that he had just had a cookie and didn't need the sucker right now. He needed to wait, end of story. All the way home he talked about his sucker and when he could have it. So we get home and I immediately start on dinner. About 10 min. later ds walks up to me holding a toy gumball "machine" that belonged to dd from last Easter. He says to me, "Mom, I don't know why I did this, but I ate the last gumball in here." I said, "Was it yours?" (Because he got an identical one for Easter) He said, "No, it was (sister's name)." I asked, "Did she give it to you?" "No." I said, "Did you ask her for it?" He says, "no". I said, "How did you get it then?" He says, "I went in her room and took it." Turns out he had barged in her room, had found it and told his sister he was going to eat it. She had said, "no, please don't." And he did anyway. So I told him he could not have his sucker, but needed to give it to his sister as well as an apology. Oh. My. Word. You would have thought it was the end of the world. "Not my SUCKER!!!!!!! That's not FAIR!" And then he proceeds to say, "Fine, I'll give her my sucker, but then she has to give me something of hers." :confused::confused::confused:

 

Just now, as a final example, ds was on the computer. Dh called to him, said he wanted to show him something. As ds was coming down the stairs he says to his dad, "What! Can't you see I'm in the middle of doing something!?" He was immediately sent to him room, where he currently is, crying because it's not fair that he's in there.

 

I am completly dumbfounded. I seriously don't know what would cause him to have this kind of attitude. No one else in our family has this attitude. Dh and I didn't have this when we were kids. There's no way it would have been tolerated even for a moment. But I don't know in what way we have tolerated it, and moreover, I don't know what the best way of letting him know it's NOT tolerated is. There is a quote from James Dobson that says, "If a child is spoiling for a fight, you ought not disappoint him." We are there, but I don't know the best way to "fight" and show him we win, esp. because he is already so controlling. He's only 7yo! Again, we're stupified.

 

If you have any encouragement or gently spoken wisdom/guidence/BTDT examples I could really use it. Thanks.

[Ria]

I think the main problem is that you have allowed him to "negotiate," whine, and wheedle after he's been given a directive or answer, and it's become a habit. You need to let your no mean no, period.

 

Sit him down and tell him that from now on you will simply not tolerate any answer other than, "Yes, Mom" or "Yes, Dad." Tell him that the immediate result for any other answer will be going to his room for a half an hour. Make sure he understands this. Have him repeat it back to you. Then stick to your guns and send him to his room each and every time. For example, when you told him he could not go outside, you could have said, "And you may not talk about how unfair you think this is, or make any comments about your sister." If he says anything (I can watch movies and she can't, etc) send him immediately to his room. Eventually he'll put two and two together and shape up.

 

I think I'd go so far as to have him skip a meal if he slams the door and yells about them as you posted. You could tell him that during your talk, too.

 

It really sounds like you need to help this child understand that he is merely a child, not an adult on equal footing with you and your dh. Once you work on establishing that, you can work on how he treats your dd. He will come around, so don't get too discouraged. Chin up, girl!

 

Ria

Edited February 8, 2009 by Ria

[MyBlueLobsters]

First of all {{HUGS}} and then MORE {{HUGS}} Our middle child is 7 and a boy as well. He is the one who gives us the most troubles and struggles with anger. So I totally understand your frustration. Honestly, our middle son probably gets the 'short end of the stick' quite a bit. Our oldest is really outgoing and funny, people are always talking about how they love being around him. Then our youngest has Down Syndrome and gets lots of attention. Aiden sometimes does get stuck in the middle and can be ignored. My DH and I have really recently been talking about this because we are starting to notice the ways he gets 'jipped' if you will. One thing that made a HUGE difference in his attitude was going out one on one with one of us. We spent the evening out having ice cream, talking just about him, and even prying at why he gets so angry. He actually had legitiment points, some were not...but a few were things we found that DH and I could work on. We have noticed a big difference in his overall attitude just after making some parenting adjustments. My DH and I also saw that we were always getting on him and getting him in trouble when he did things wrong, but never complimented him for those times when he could have lost his temper and didn't. A little bit of positive reinforcement goes a long way.

 

I think a great place to start with him would be one of you taking him out...just the 2 of you and just trying to see what's going on in his head. That's just my suggestion. I'll be praying for you!!! :grouphug:

[MyBlueLobsters]

I wanted to add....my post above sounded like I think you should try to make everything 'fair' for him. That wasn't what I was trying to say. There are times in life where things happen and it isn't going to be fair, it's good to learn that as a child. However, DH and I were seeing things that we were doing that were causing Aiden undue anger, we were 'provoking him to wrath'. It wasn't on purpose, but it was happening. That was why I suggested going out with him and trying to see if maybe there were some big things that are upsetting him that cause him to be frustrated about everything. {{HUGS}}

[Sharon H in IL]

I cannot speak exactly to your situation, because I can't see into your house, so please don't take my post as if it were anything but a kindly suggestion.

 

Many, many times when a child is angry, he's asking for love. Not that his parents don't love him to bits, but so often a child doesn't catch the love we are sending out. Have you identified his love language? How he experiences love best? Spend a little time thinking of what actions or words spell love to your son. And make sure to invest the time and energy into showing your love in ways he can hear.

 

So I think Ria's suggestion is entirely reasonable. But it needs to be accompanied by a filling up a child's love tank, so he has the emotional resources to draw upon to feel good about himself as a good person, worthy of love. Then he will have the resources to show that love to others. People who don't feel good about themselves don't treat others well.

[SnowWhite]

Oh, boy, your son sounds familiar. I have a seven year old boy as well. Everything is always, NOT FAIR!

 

I love Emily's advice and I will also share a few ideas that have helped here.

 

I have made a big effort to be on ds's side with things. For example, when your dd could be outside and play and it "wasn't fair" because your ds was sick, what could you have done to make it up to him? Could you have had a special board game or movie time with just you and ds? I realize this is hard and takes a lot of time and effort from mom, but lots of times I find my ds just needs someone to be on his side. To be his buddy, to appreciate him, to cater to him just a little.

 

Here lately, dh has stepped in and made some adjustments to our house routines which have made a tremendous impact for the better. Our screen time is now extremely limited... one hour of video games to be played after 3pm and one educational cartoon at lunch, then no more till after 3pm. This has freed up our time and taken away some of my battles as teacher/mom. We now go downstairs for music/piano/prayer time right before school and that helps us get off on the right foot. I have also instituted specific recess times regardless of what we have accomplished so that ds has that to look forward to for toys, running outside or whatever. (9:45 for fifteen minutes, then 11 or 11:30 for 1.5 hours).

 

Most of all, I am trying to appreciate ds just a bit more. His little brother is the cuddly lovey dovey one, his mama's little boyfriend, and I realize I need to give the 7yo positive affirming attention as well, even though he is more prickly. So I ruffle up his hair, kiss him lightly on the cheek, tickle him in the ribs and laugh at his jokes. It helps to make our home happier.

Edited February 8, 2009 by SnowWhite

[Storm Bay]

You're not alone; some kids take a whole lot more work than others do. I have had this situation, and here's what's helped:

 

Let your yes be yes and your no be no. When he's older you can teach him that you will listen to his opinion if he gives it respectfully.

 

Life just isn't fair. My kids now know this. But sometimes they really mean something other than fair.

 

I have made a point of giving my middle child something she does that is all her own. This has been changing lately, but she's also 10, not 7.

 

I have dramatic children. I was a dramatic child. Somehow dramatic children manage to grow up, but the key is not letting that dramatic child rule the roost.

 

Each of my dc has different needs. Yes, they all have the same basic needs for love, nurture, discipline, food, clothing, shelter, education. But they don't all need as many hugs, calories, consequences, etc.

 

A couple of good reads are The Six Point Plan for Raising Happy, Healthy Children and The Strong Willed Child. Another is How to Really Love Your Child. I have also found that adequate protein helps my dd's moods (not that I ever let them get away with poor behaviour if we are late for a meal) and that good, hard exercise can help. We also avoid artificial colours and flavours, corn syrup, etc. Does he get much physical outlet?

[LaxMom]

I could really use that missing instruction manual for parents.

 

My 7yo ds really has dh and me baffled. ...I mean, honestly, he has everything he could want or need ... He can't seem to think beyond himself - he's very selfish and thinks he alone is deserving of everything.

 

As usual, I agree wholeheartedly with what Ria said.

 

I would also point you to your own words. He's 7, wants for nothing, has a huge sense of entitlement and is willing to bully his way into having whatever he has deemed "rightly" his. He bullies his sister and that is not "negotiating", he is trying to bully you and your husband by wearing you down or being condescending.

 

I would address the bullying - give him tools to communicate what he wants and his feelings, but bullying gets immediate, non-negotiable negative consequences.

ds asked if he could have the sucker right then. I said, "no, you need to wait. We're going home and having dinner and then you may have it". He was all mad and asked why and I told him that he had just had a cookie and didn't need the sucker right now. He needed to wait, end of story. All the way home he talked about his sucker and when he could have it.

 

You told him once he had to wait. Why would you think you have to justify your initial decision the next time he asked? And then the talk all the way home that was, I assume, designed to annoy you into letting him have it? Once I have made it clear that the sucker is NOT going to be consumed until after supper, that's it. I do not justify my reasons. If it is brought up again (because, you know, multiple children like to take turns asking the same question, even though they were all present for it, and the answer, the first time) my standard reply is "asked and answered". If they want to pursue it, the sucker would be in the trash before we left the store. And the "offender" would NOT be invited to shop with me the next time. Even my 4-year-olds understand this and would tell you that "H (or Q) is shopping but I was not nice last time so I have to stay home." No fits, no melodrama. (Which is not to say that we don't have meltdowns or melodrama, because we do - they are, after all, 4.)

 

Your daughter is letting him walk all over her because you are modeling that behavior for her by engaging in his game. She probably just realizes what the outcome will be and takes the short route there by giving in.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

A friend has a middle son with the same behaviour. Unfortunately, he's now 12, almost 6' already and pretty much out of control.

My DD gave his sister a nice bracelet that she handmade. Well, within an hour, the boy took the scissors to the bracelet and cut it up. Was there any followup? no.

 

That boy has ADD with major lack of impulse control. Medication is to be considered in some cases.

[Barb_]

I'm throwing my hat in with Ria and Miss Crazyhouse:tongue_smilie:

 

I have a volatile son with a high-strung nature. He came right after the most easy-going and submissive of my daughters. Although she is 3.5 years older and stands a head taller, would you believe she's completely intimidated by her little brother?

 

When you are used to one system of parenting (as you use with a sweet-natured, compliant child), it is natural to feel completely blindsided on a regular basis by the more demanding, intense child. I wonder if you feel badly being 'harder' on your son than you are on your daughter and he picks up on that by pushing your buttons. Some children understand and respond to gentle reason, others only respect power. You have to deal with the hand you've been dealt. Contrary to what they insist (and your son screams from his room), children don't want to be treated as equals, they want to be treated as individuals. Your son is old enough to begin to learn that 'fair' does not mean the same as 'equitable'. Fair means everyone gets what he or she needs or deserves at that moment.

 

Barb

[MyBlueLobsters]

Another book I would suggest reading is "Shepherding a Child's Heart" by Ted Tripp. He talks a lot about not just changing the outward behavior, but the heart attitudes behind the behavior. Our church recently did the video series during Sunday School, and I sat and cried during the video when I realized that we were part of Aiden's problem....or at least not correcting it in the way that was best for him.

[Aggie]

I would also tomato-stake your ds. Just because dd takes the bossiness, doesn't give him the right to dish it out. He needs to learn how to communicate and play with her.

[Macrina]

Your ds sounds like what my 4yo ds could be like if we don't get the course changed. In our case he has been babied. His older sister is just like your dd too, very patient and loving towards him and he takes advantage of it. I have fond that he is a sensitive child with underlying health issues and food allergies which has been contributing to his behavior. When you don't feel well, you can easily take it out on people. That being said we see now how he has been coddled from the beginning because he was a fragile child and we are taking more no tolerance policies and holding him to higher standards. We are still figuring out which methods of "discipline" are most effective more him so it's trial and error, but we are on the right path. Bottom line, my ds has been spoiled.

 

My sympathies to you, mama, as you figure this all out. It takes courage to admit that something's not right and it's easy to beat yourself up about it, but you are doing the right thing, trying to fix it now.

[Rhonda in TX]

Your DS sounds just like my DS, who has Asperger's. They have this whole "theory of mind" thing going. They really do think it's all about them. They have difficulty empathizing. We have had similar incidents to your son's on a regular basis.

 

I'm not saying this excuses the behavior. Not at all. We are constantly working with DS, and he has wonderful "breakthrough" moments. However, if this is the issue with your son, punishing will have no effect. He really doesn't see things the way you do.

[WTMindy]

It really sounds like, from your examples, that you are doing the hard work. I agree that this child should have no negotiation priviledges at this point. My son, who is now 10, is similar in that he is pretty strong willed and can often talk me into things (or out of things) before I even realized it has happened. So, I have had to work on this trait in ME. I will NOT let him negotiate with me on most things right now. I have told him this very thing. I told him that he gets his way by wearing my down and for a time he needs to practice obedience with a happy heart no matter what, without talking about it. I find I have to be SOOOO consistent. It is HARD work. He really needs this firm structure.

 

Now, about the fairness thing, I would tell him that the word "fair" is on an indefinite time-out. He is not allowed to use that word until a much later time when he understands the concept. It doesn't have to be a punitive thing. It could be that every time he says the word "fair" he has to go kiss him mother on the cheek or hug his sister. Or, it could be push-ups, or whatever you think might work with him.

 

And then remember that he is seven, and he is trying his best to figure this world out and he is trying to figure out the best way to get what he wants in life. So, give him grace as he is learning this. (This is a message to myself too!) Praise him when he does well. But most of all, be consisitent. Tell him what you expect in very specific words and then follow through!!

 

And pray!!!!!!! My son keeps me on my knees!!!!!!

[Catherine]

I agree both with Ria, and with others who've pointed out the need to make sure your love is heard and felt fully. The next oldest here is a boy, but it matters not-he is basically sweet natured and easygoing and the contrast is evident : \

 

I find that consistency is absolutely the only thing that has begun to turn him around. I learned about it on the Raising Godly Tomatoes website. I can't endorse everything I read there but what Elizabeth says about consistency, and what it looks like, is very useful IMO. Good luck. It can be so hard!

[Lovedtodeath]

GOYB parenting. Level one is about showing your love. Really think about this. Subtle messages mean the most. Do your eyes smile at him? Do you laugh at his silliness? Are ou happy that he has just walked into the room?

 

With the negotiating... that is my DD. I explain once, if I feel it is needed. Then I cut her off. No way is she even going to say it. I won't hear it. Raising Godly Tomatoes has also helped me to be more consistent, but we use standing in a corner and losing priveledges (usually as a natural part of the punishment, her game is turned off, or she misses out while DS and I have fun... etc.).

[katemary63]

I like this rule. When a child is given a direction, they are to obey "Right away, All the way AND in a Happy way." If ALL THREE components are not there, there is a consequence. This would address some of your son's behaviors. We use standing in a corner with a timer set. We use removing favorite toys or tv/ game time or time in bedroom or sitting on bed.

 

The most important aspect of this for you would be "in a happy way." It does not mean with a big fake smile on the child's face. It does mean no disrespect, no outbursts, no fits. He should know these terms and what they mean and if he argues or screams, you simply say, "Now that was not in a happy way. You can have 10 minutes in the corner." Or what ever. Any undue reaction to that would also be "not in a happy way" and garner more time. Any quiet obedience would bring rewards and minutes off.

 

I also agree with the poster who said the sucker would be in the trash if her son argued and whined about it. Honestly, I don't think your son believes that you will "make it hurt" so to speek by , for instance, throwing away the sucker. Why did he have that sucker by the time you got home would be my question. I can honestly say that my kids would never have spoken to me like that because they KNOW FOR A FACT that the sucker would have been in the trash and then some! "Make it hurt" early in the game and you will both be happier in the long run. Don't wait till things have mounted up so big. "Make it hurt" does NOT mean physical pain. It means to make sure he KNOWS that what he did, did NOT turn out well for him. It means that you figure out a way to make his own choices work in such a way that he regrets them immediatly and big time and thinks twice about doing the same thing next time.

 

For example: my dd7 likes to shop with me. There are times when she is allowed to pick something out ( candy, small toy, book, who knows). If she so much as squeeks about what she can or can not get on a particular shopping trip, she gets nothing. ( She is certainly allowed to ask a polite question. But no whining, complaining or negativity.) I set the peramiters, she picks something gratefully or she gets nothing. I would not yell, I would not spank, I would not even frown. I would just say, "Oh my, now I have to put this back. Maybe you'll be able to get something next time." This has been the way I have operated since day one. She NEVER SAYS A WORD other then, "Thanks mom!" We have a blast shopping together! We are BOTH happy because I have shown her the limits and she KNOWS I will enforce them and has learned that it is in her best interest to abide by them.

 

Some people will probably think this is a bit harsh. But I will tell you from experience, there are SOME children who simply must have this type of parenting or they will NOT be happy. My son is one. I never had to think this way with my oldest DD. She was naturally compliant. But when DS came along the whole ball game changed and I had to get smart - at least smarter then him! We had to quit "explaining" everything to him, quit "talking it all out" and simply lay down the law. A + B = C EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the only thing that worked.

 

Ps. He is 22 now and a joy, but still a pain in the butt! :lol:

Edited February 9, 2009 by katemary63

[Barb_]

Some people will probably think this is a bit harsh. But I will tell you from experience, there are SOME children who simply must have this type of parenting or they will NOT be happy. My son is one. I never had to think this way with my oldest DD. She was naturally compliant. But when DS came along the whole ball game changed and I had to get smart - at least smarter then him! We had to quit "explaining" everything to him, quit "talking it all out" and simply lay down the law. A + B = C EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the only thing that worked.

 

Listen to the lady...look at the ages of those kids!

 

Barb

[Tree House Academy]

This sounds a LOT like my 9 year old. He is definitely not without heartache in his life...his dad and I divorced when he was 3 and he doesn't see his dad much. However, his attitude problems are SEVERE and really are only getting worse as time goes by. We are at a loss as to what to do next. :(

[Joanne]

Some people will probably think this is a bit harsh. But I will tell you from experience, there are SOME children who simply must have this type of parenting or they will NOT be happy. My son is one. I never had to think this way with my oldest DD. She was naturally compliant. But when DS came along the whole ball game changed and I had to get smart - at least smarter then him! We had to quit "explaining" everything to him, quit "talking it all out" and simply lay down the law. A + B = C EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the only thing that worked.

 

I am known as the "woman who doesn't spank or punish".

 

But I am also the Mom who wrote this:

 

http://goybparenting.com/?p=173

 

So, I completely agree with your paragraph.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks Joanne! I love your site, but I have problems locating things there.

[Tap]

Dd10 went through this when she was a little younger than your ds.

 

What worked for us, was reteaching how to act appropriately to disappointment.

 

Just to give an example:If dd had came into the room whining about the fairness of ds being outside while she was sick, this is how we handled it:

 

I immediately told dd to stop talking. Once she was quiet (often would take several-'stop talking and listen' comments from me) I would tell her, "your feelings are rational, your reaction is not". "I want to listen to you, and hear what you are feeling, but the way you are acting is not appropriate. The way your are acting is distracting me from listening to you. I can not help you if I can't listen to you." If you can get the child to calm down, then ask them to leave the room for one moment, and then return and ONLY say "mom, I need help"....then stop talking until they are acknowledged. Once they are able to do this, (it took a few tries the first few times, and she was sent back out of the room until she did it) stop, face the child, go to their level and have them explain, Calmly, how they feel. It will take a few reminders to keep them calm. Don't try to change the words they are using, just the tone of voice and demeanor. Once you can get the child to come to you calmly, and tell you how they are feeling, then you can start to work on how to handle each situation and give them examples of more appropriate ways to ask for what they need. In the above scenario, model something like "mom, I am sad that sis is outside. Is there something I can do that is fun too?" Each time, they come complaining, help them with new words and ways to ask for what they really want. Have them repeat it back to you, and then show them that you will react differently to them if they come and talk to you, instead of how they were acting before.

 

In a calm moment, away from a tense situation, I would show them how they are acting by acting out the situation yourself. Show them that if they come to you in 'action' (in a furry), it makes you 'react' to the 'action'. If they really want you to 'listen', they need to come to you with 'words'. This is what the above exercise can accomplish. Teaching them to approach you with words, not actions.

 

After you have a chance to diffuse the situation, then you can start working on the notion that not everything is fair, but that if they come to you with their feelings, you can sometimes help by giving other suggestions. It sounds like he needs to learn to make things more fair, by giving suggestions on how to even things out, instead of less fair, in making other people sit out activities. Maybe you can help him realize that he can have fun in a different way, instead of wanting to punish those who are doing what he wants to do.

 

 

Good luck,

It is soo hard to figure out each child's personalities and what each needs :0/

 

Tap

[katemary63]

Listen to the lady...look at the ages of those kids!

 

Barb

 

I can be slow sometime ( honestly!) , but I'm not quite getting what you mean by this? Can you explain?

[WTMCassandra]

I can be slow sometime ( honestly!) , but I'm not quite getting what you mean by this? Can you explain?

 

I think Barb means that since Katemary's children are basically grown, she has acquired true wisdom on her journey and knows whereof she speaks. :001_smile:

 

And I agree with Barb, BTW. I think Katemary's comments were very wise.

[katemary63]

Dd10 went through this when she was a little younger than your ds.

 

 

 

I

I would tell her, "your feelings are rational, your reaction is not". "I want to listen to you, and hear what you are feeling, but the way you are acting is not appropriate. The way your are acting is distracting me from listening to you. I can not help you if I can't listen to you." If you can get the child to calm down, then ask them to leave the room for one moment, and then return and ONLY say "mom, I need help"....then stop talking until they are acknowledged. Once they are able to do this, (it took a few tries the first few times, and she was sent back out of the room until she did it) stop, face the child, go to their level and have them explain, Calmly, how they feel. It will take a few reminders to keep them calm. Don't try to change the words they are using, just the tone of voice and demeanor. Once you can get the child to come to you calmly, and tell you how they are feeling, then you can start to work on how to handle each situation and give them examples of more appropriate ways to ask for what they need. In the above scenario, model something like "mom, I am sad that sis is outside. Is there something I can do that is fun too?" Each time, they come complaining, help them with new words and ways to ask for what they really want. Have them repeat it back to you, and then show them that you will react differently to them if they come and talk to you, instead of how they were acting before.

 

In a calm moment, away from a tense situation, I would show them how they are acting by acting out the situation yourself. Show them that if they come to you in 'action' (in a furry), it makes you 'react' to the 'action'. If they really want you to 'listen', they need to come to you with 'words'. This is what the above exercise can accomplish. Teaching them to approach you with words, not actions.

 

After you have a chance to diffuse the situation, then you can start working on the notion that not everything is fair, but that if they come to you with their feelings, you can sometimes help by giving other suggestions. It sounds like he needs to learn to make things more fair, by giving suggestions on how to even things out, instead of less fair, in making other people sit out activities. Maybe you can help him realize that he can have fun in a different way, instead of wanting to punish those who are doing what he wants to do.

 

 

Tap

 

I understand what you are trying to do here and I think this is a good technique for SOME children and at a certain age. However, by age 7, IMHO, a child should be well beyond this. I would have done this kind of thing with a 3 or 4 year old. I think this woman's son KNOWS that his ranting and whining is rediculous and is simply using it as a tool to get something that he wants. ( even if it's a negative something)

[katemary63]

I think Barb means that since Katemary's children are basically grown, she has acquired true wisdom on her journey and knows whereof she speaks. :001_smile:

 

And I agree with Barb, BTW. I think Katemary's comments were very wise.

 

Ahhhh....that just went right over my head. Told you I could be slow! But thank you very much!

[Lovedtodeath]

I understand what you are trying to do here and I think this is a good technique for SOME children and at a certain age. However, by age 7, IMHO, a child should be well beyond this. I would have done this kind of thing with a 3 or 4 year old. I think this woman's son KNOWS that his ranting and whining is rediculous and is simply using it as a tool to get something that he wants. (even if it's a negative something)

I disagree. If he has not been taught like this before, then it needs to be taught. If I stop doing math with DD will I expect her to know division when she is ten just because most kids that age can do it? Will I expect her to do it without help at 9 b/c that is easier for me as her mother and it seemed to work for my mom, or the neighbor?

 

Further, as a person I want someone to hear me and show understanding when I am upset. Our children deserve no less. When I was a child I was punished for showing emotion, it helped my mom at the time, but it hasn't helped me as a wife or mother at all. Learning how to appropriately communicate emotions... that is something that will help a person for the rest of their life.

[Barb_]

I can be slow sometime ( honestly!) , but I'm not quite getting what you mean by this? Can you explain?

 

Experience, Dahling...you have gobs and gobs of experience :D

[Mommy22alyns]

Okay, how do you truly CUT the arguing and debating though? Do you just keep repeating yourself until they finally close their mouths and listen? And when you're giving a kid instructions, say, "Put on your shoes" and you hand them their shoes, but a minute later they're looking at a book with no shoes on... what then?

 

I guess I'm looking for the next step. (Oh, sorry to hijack!)

[Barb_]

Okay, how do you truly CUT the arguing and debating though? Do you just keep repeating yourself until they finally close their mouths and listen? And when you're giving a kid instructions, say, "Put on your shoes" and you hand them their shoes, but a minute later they're looking at a book with no shoes on... what then?

 

I guess I'm looking for the next step. (Oh, sorry to hijack!)

 

Boot camp. Address every single infraction calmly and rationally and make it uncomfortable. Make up your mind that establishing better habits in this area will be the main focus of your day for a period of time. Make a point of giving direction so that you may follow through. I'm sure you probably do everything you can to avoid directives right now because you dread the drama. Face it head on.

 

The problem with the shoes example above is that if you avoid directives until you absolutely have to go somewhere, you paint yourself into a corner. If they dawdle or ignore you, you are the only one who deals with the fallout by being late. Make sure the offender misses things he or she values instead.

 

Barb

 

Editing to add a little more...I use a lot of stock phrases. "No means no." "It's not up for discussion." On the flip side, I say what I mean and I mean what I say in other areas too. I don't make promises I can't keep. So that means I don't say we're going to the park later in day when I think we may be too busy or their behavior may deteriorate. I much prefer to surprise them with a park trip by saying, "Wow, it's a gorgeous day and you guys have worked hard this morning...let's finish this at the park." They know they can take me at my word.

 

By the time my guys are 4 or so, they don't even try to whine or negotiate or argue because they know it's fruitless.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[platosacademy]

I only have one ds, 10, but this is how I handled the whole "It's not fair" phase at 7. I have selective (extremely selective) hearing. I'm deaf when it comes to whining. And consistently deaf. Believe it or not, it will go away if you ignore it for a few minutes after saying "I don't hear whining."

 

Also sometimes I have to say "Who's the parent? Who's the child? Well, when you are a parent, you will have your own family rules. Now you have to deal with our family rules." When he feels bossy.

 

It's hard to be tough on our kids...believe me, but if you're consistent you can nip some of it in the bud. Like I said, I only have one right now. My sister who has three tries to make a special time for each of her children. She's the one who came up with the "I'm deaf when someone's whining" approach. It isn't perfect, but it did wipe out a lot of petty gumball type arguments.

[Janna]

 

When you are used to one system of parenting (as you use with a sweet-natured, compliant child), it is natural to feel completely blindsided on a regular basis by the more demanding, intense child. I wonder if you feel badly being 'harder' on your son than you are on your daughter and he picks up on that by pushing your buttons. Some children understand and respond to gentle reason, others only respect power. You have to deal with the hand you've been dealt. Contrary to what they insist (and your son screams from his room), children don't want to be treated as equals, they want to be treated as individuals. Your son is old enough to begin to learn that 'fair' does not mean the same as 'equitable'. Fair means everyone gets what he or she needs or deserves at that moment.

 

Barb

 

Thanks for this, Barb. It was very encouraging to me, and also very true. I have in the past, felt blindsided by having a son who could not be more different than my daughter. And I have, many times, lamented that I am harder on him - or at least that I can see where he *thinks* I am harder on him.

 

You're so right too, that kids want to be treated as individuals rather than equals. We are very aware of this and try very hard to act as such, but sometimes we fail. Thanks for the gentle reminder.

[Janna]

 

In a calm moment, away from a tense situation, I would show them how they are acting by acting out the situation yourself. Show them that if they come to you in 'action' (in a furry), it makes you 'react' to the 'action'. If they really want you to 'listen', they need to come to you with 'words'. This is what the above exercise can accomplish. Teaching them to approach you with words, not actions.

 

 

 

 

 

Tap

 

Thanks for all you said. I especially like this part -pointing out that we are reacting to the action rather than the words. I will remember this. I will say though, that I think this needs to wait another year or so - he's just not at a mentality to see it that way, kwim? He's still a little too young. If not by age, by mentality. But trust me, I will remember this. Thanks.

[Janna]

I told him that he gets his way by wearing my down and for a time he needs to practice obedience with a happy heart no matter what, without talking about it. I find I have to be SOOOO consistent. It is HARD work. He really needs this firm structure.

 

Oh, if I could only tell you how many times we have said this. But you're right. We're not consistent. Honestly, reading the responses here has shown dh and me (I have had him read the responses too) that where we *think* we're doing x,y,or z, we're either *not*, or we aren't doing it consistently when we think we are. It *is* so hard. Ugh.

 

Now, about the fairness thing, I would tell him that the word "fair" is on an indefinite time-out. He is not allowed to use that word until a much later time when he understands the concept. It doesn't have to be a punitive thing. It could be that every time he says the word "fair" he has to go kiss him mother on the cheek or hug his sister. Or, it could be push-ups, or whatever you think might work with him.

 

And then remember that he is seven, and he is trying his best to figure this world out and he is trying to figure out the best way to get what he wants in life. So, give him grace as he is learning this. (This is a message to myself too!) Praise him when he does well. But most of all, be consisitent. Tell him what you expect in very specific words and then follow through!!

 

And pray!!!!!!! My son keeps me on my knees!!!!!!

 

Yes, I will do all of these things. I think you're right that he should not be allowed to use the word "Fair" anymore. I mean, I have said, "I don't want to hear it" plenty of times, but he needs a sit down, during a calm moment, telling of this.

 

And praying - definitely! Dh and I pray together on a regular basis but he has said that we need to devote more time to praying specifically for our kids, about our kids and about our parenting.

[Janna]

Subtle messages mean the most. Do your eyes smile at him? Do you laugh at his silliness? Are ou happy that he has just walked into the room?

 

This is a good reminder to me, and makes me sad. I *know* that I need to consciously let him know that I'm happy he's around - the "smiling eyes" especially. But I have forgotten and that makes me so sad. Since reading this I have made sure that every time I see him, I give a big smile no matter what I'm doing, so he knows I'm happy to see him. I do consciously laugh at his silliness because it's so obvious all of the time that he needs that attention. The "smiling eyes" though has not been seen from him in a long time. Thanks for the reminder.

 

With the negotiating... that is my DD. I explain once, if I feel it is needed. Then I cut her off. No way is she even going to say it. I won't hear it. Raising Godly Tomatoes has also helped me to be more consistent, but we use standing in a corner and losing priveledges (usually as a natural part of the punishment, her game is turned off, or she misses out while DS and I have fun... etc.).

 

We have done this before - it's usually our standard recourse. But honestly, it almost makes him behave worse - at least towards his sister. If he has to go to his room, or be removed from the area in which the rest of us are, he knows his sister is still there and that infuriates him. Honestly, I can see where he feels hurt that he's "always" in trouble and she "never" is. I would hate that if I had had a sibling as compliant as my dd is.

 

He needs an outlet. Something that he can have for his own. Something that he *knows* when he does or has this "thing" it is completely his own. Something that only he can determine what the outcome will be. I know my dad has said that the best thing he parents did for him was to let him go fishing all by himself. He loved that time to just be by himself, his thoughts to himself, the ability to explore by himself and fish and accomplish a nice catch himself. He didn't start that until he was 10 and 7yo is just too young in my opinion. But something *like* that. I really do think he feels like he is in competition with her even though he's truly not. Sorry. I'm just thinking outloud here....Anyway, thanks for the reminder.

[Janna]

Honestly, I don't think your son believes that you will "make it hurt" so to speek by , for instance, throwing away the sucker. Why did he have that sucker by the time you got home would be my question. I can honestly say that my kids would never have spoken to me like that because they KNOW FOR A FACT that the sucker would have been in the trash and then some! "Make it hurt" early in the game and you will both be happier in the long run. Don't wait till things have mounted up so big. "Make it hurt" does NOT mean physical pain. It means to make sure he KNOWS that what he did, did NOT turn out well for him. It means that you figure out a way to make his own choices work in such a way that he regrets them immediatly and big time and thinks twice about doing the same thing next time.

 

Hmm. This confuses me a little bit. I guess I feel like we *do* make it hurt. He was very upset that he had to give his sucker to his sister. He was very upset that he had to go back outside and build her snowman again. I mean, I feel like the consequences are appropriate and painful enough. With the sucker in the car, I ignored him until that wasn't working and had then said, "Stop talking about the sucker or it's going in the trash". So his talking about it "all the way home" wasn't entirely accurate. It was a good portion of the drive though. I was hoping that his being ignored would have stopped him. When it didn't I let him know he needed to stop *now*.

 

We have been known to take every single toy out of his room before, leaving his room completely bare except for his dresser and bed. We have been known to take a favorite toy away and either throw it away, put it in a garage sale, or make him give it away to someone in need. We have done all three of those before. I feel like we have made it "hurt". :confused:

 

For example: my dd7 likes to shop with me. There are times when she is allowed to pick something out ( candy, small toy, book, who knows). If she so much as squeeks about what she can or can not get on a particular shopping trip, she gets nothing. ( She is certainly allowed to ask a polite question. But no whining, complaining or negativity.) I set the peramiters, she picks something gratefully or she gets nothing. I would not yell, I would not spank, I would not even frown. I would just say, "Oh my, now I have to put this back. Maybe you'll be able to get something next time." This has been the way I have operated since day one. She NEVER SAYS A WORD other then, "Thanks mom!" We have a blast shopping together! We are BOTH happy because I have shown her the limits and she KNOWS I will enforce them and has learned that it is in her best interest to abide by them.

 

I set the rules for when we're out and shopping from the time they are very, very young. They know not to ask for stuff that has not been discussed beforehand. They know not to beg or throw fits. Consequently, we have always been able to go to a toy store and just "look around" and leave without buying anything and never a word about it.

 

We had to quit "explaining" everything to him, quit "talking it all out" and simply lay down the law. A + B = C EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the only thing that worked.

 

This has spoken volumes to me *and* dh. Too often we have "talked it out". This has been dh's main way of parenting and something that I have had to adapt to. My initial response is usually to be pretty harsh and to "lay down the law" so to speak. Because dh has never been a fan of that, I feel like that part of me has faded away and this "talking it out" has taken over. I have expressed this frustration to dh over and over again, thus some of the harsher punishments as listed above. But I am certain that ds can see our hesistency for one or the other and he plays off of that. your "equation" is *exactly* what needs to happen around here. I am absolutely certain of it. Dh sees it too. Now it's coming to an agreement on what "C" will be.

 

Thank you for your help!

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't know if these apply to you, but they did us, so just in case:

 

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/problems-olderchildren2.asp

 

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/problems-irritationwithchildren.asp

 

also:

 

The Fine Art of Lecturing

While most of our conversations are pleasant exchanges centered on how God's ways apply to each everyday situation, when our children do require verbal correcting, the tone of our conversation changes to a more formal lecture format to get our point across.

 

With small children we keep our "lectures" very short -- telling them what they did wrong and not to repeat it. As they grow, and as circumstances warrant, we do more questioning, instructing, and explaining -- always continuing until we feel there is understanding and agreement....

 

Elizabeth: The following four principles are key to effectual lecturing: 1. Discuss and lecture as needed, but never nag, whine, or attempt to manipulate with shame. 2. Carefully watch and read the heart of your listeners and KNOW WHEN TO QUIT. 3. After you sense genuine repentance, stop scolding and continue on in a gentle manner, with helpful instruction and love. 4. Do not end the session until peaceful harmony has been reestablished and your child has learned the lesson you wanted to teach.

 

As far as talking it out, I have had to know when to stop, because if I don't draw the line then I end up very frustrated, and that is not good for either of us.

[Janna]

First of all {{HUGS}} and then MORE {{HUGS}}

 

Thank you!:D

 

One thing that made a HUGE difference in his attitude was going out one on one with one of us. We spent the evening out having ice cream, talking just about him, and even prying at why he gets so angry. He actually had legitiment points, some were not...but a few were things we found that DH and I could work on.

You know what's amazing? We do this fairly often, but on the days that he gets the one on one time with us (and usually it's taking him somewhere fun or special) are the days when his behavior is the worst! I mean, he's excellent during the one on one time, but when he gets home, it's like he's a whole 'nother child! It makes us not want to do special things with him because the whole experience gets ruined when we get home! It's really amazing how consistent that is.

 

Now we have noticed that when there is one on one time because the other parent has taken the other two kids somewhere, leaving ds home with the opposite parent, his behavior just couldn't be more excellent. When he was a baby, he was extremely laid back. He literally didn't even cry when he was born, nor did he cry for his first bath in the hospital (consequently he got pneumonia which I think was from not getting all the gunk out of his lungs that crying would have done). He was a very quiet, serious baby all the way until he was about 3 or so. And then he just became this completely different child. We see that he feels in competition with his sister, which is why once he comes home, or she gets home, his behavior changes. I just don't know what to do about it.

 

My DH and I also saw that we were always getting on him and getting him in trouble when he did things wrong, but never complimented him for those times when he could have lost his temper and didn't. A little bit of positive reinforcement goes a long way.

 

We have felt this way also. That it has definitely been unbalanced in the negative vs. positive. We try to remember to praise him ("Good job not arguing with me about that!" or "Thank you for doing what I aksed immediately! That was so good of you!") but it's still unbalanced and a good reminder. Thanks.