What would you do?/autism in girls/HELP

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

My daughter is almost 12 and almost certainly undiagnosed high functioning autism but hasn’t shown a lot of characteristics until the last two years.  It so far hasn’t affected her daily life and female diagnosis here is almost impossible because no one grasps how girls present. We’ve had a couple instances over the years, I’ve posted about some of them, where her social skills gap led to issues. And here we go again.

Today is the first day of spring break. She told me she was scheduling emails to send to her class throughout the week. I didn’t ask questions because I know her classmates frequently send encouraging emails to each other.

But. She thought it would be hilarious to pretend she was hacked and write an email including information on each student. Things like siblings and vacations. Some of it, honestly, was kind of hurtful(like adding the name of her best friend’s dog and saying what kind of a name is that).  She included snarky comments about herself and I know her well enough to know she thinks it was funny. Two parents and a teacher have texted me screenshots.

But it isn’t funny, not to anyone other than her. I am not interested in punishment because this girl couldn’t actually hurt a fly and I know it’s a social skills mismatch that I need to address through educating her.  I can handle teaching her the social skills explicitly, but I also am autistic and would not have understood this at her age either(why wouldn’t they think it’s funny? Obviously they know me and know what I really think! Why would they ever think it was real?).  I don’t want to blame an undiagnosed autism to other people either but the school is a private Christian school that will view this as bullying.  
I am at a work event but need to talk to her tonight. Please help. I’m so out of my depth.

The good news is I am moving back to our old house and can move schools if need be back to the public school she was beloved in.  I know that’s catastrophizing but I know the school she is in is likely to blow this way out of proportion.

Edited April 21 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[AmandaVT]

You could approach it as an unexpected behavior and then reinforce the types of emails that the kids would appreciate. 

Spell out that she could have scared the kids with her emails and, depending on her ability to see things from others' perspectives, you could either do some role-playing or tell her why the emails weren't seen as funny by her classmates. 

Thinking of similar conversations I've had at school with students, something like: "Tiggy, I love that you were trying to make your classmates laugh, but your emails could have scared them. They may have thought you really were hacked and a stranger was sharing their personal information online. That is scary. Let's think of another type of email you could send that would be funny."  And then suggest a couple of options. 

 

I can brainstorm more too if this is at all helpful!

[gardenmom5]

According to dueling's pediatric neurologist - who did a lot with neurodiverse . . . it's *very* common for things to be below the radar in childhood, and then hit the wall during puberty

all you can do is try to figure out a way to explain how hurtful her comments were in a way she might be able to understand.  which can be so . . . not obvious.

I very recently found a YT channel "Autism from the inside".  He did discus girls and ASD.  He also talked about the differences between ASD and ADHD (often, not always, comorbid.)
not sure which video it was - but he was talking about a "sensory sound" headphone with exercises than, supposedly, can also help with neuro pathways to improve social skills.  It's something I plan to take a closer look at, but really only head about it a couple hours ago.

[Lecka]

I am not saying to do a punishment, but I think a consequence or a formal apology process could be worth considering.

 

If she has no idea why people are upset after explanation, or if she says things like “who cares since they are wrong” (like — she didn’t mean it that way, so they are wrong to take it that way), then I think a consequence would be worth doing.  Like — “well, that is your opinion, but that’s not what we think as parents.”  A natural consequence could be something like she has to have someone check her email for a while.  It doesn’t have to be something big or “punishment”-like, it can be “we are taking this seriously as parents, it’s not just going away.”  
 

If she is horrified that she has messed up but she has no idea what she has done wrong, I think a formal apology process of some kind, like writing a letter or email, could help with spelling out “here’s what happened” and also help her feel like she has tried to make it right and can expect people to appreciate this.  I think this could help a lot if she is going to feel anxious about going back to school and seeing everyone.  Plus teach her how to apologize or make restitution as she is getting older.  

 

If she is horrified and totally gets it now that it has happened, or very quickly with the slightest explanation, that’s when I would try to not focus on it too much and move on, possibly sending a low-key email or possibly apologizing in some other way.  Would it be better then if she waited and apologized when school was back, or would she be really anxious, etc.  Whatever is easier on her.  
 

All the time kids mess up and didn’t do it on purpose and honestly didn’t know better.  I think it’s a good opportunity to have a learning experience.  
 

I hope this school is not the way you fear, if it is that seems like a recipe for disaster.  It might be.  I hope things can go smoothly.  Surely other kids do childish things, too!  Hopefully it’s not something where there’s favoritism and labels.  (Edit:  I mean labels like “the bad kid”)
 

This does sound really upsetting, but I hope things will work out as smoothly as possible!  
 

If people overreact or are mean to her, I hope you advocate for her!  Or let her know you have her back, or build her up.  But I hope people can treat it like a mistake to learn from and move on!  

Edited April 21 by Lecka

[Ausmumof3]

I think this kind of thing is quite common at this age… kids see other kids do stuff that’s a bit out there or unexpected and get positive attention and laughs for it, so then they want to try it themselves but don’t understand what behaviour is a little bit funny or quirky and what’s a solid boundary. And context matters a lot.

One of my tutor kids got in trouble for something like this recently. She did get a couple of days of reflection but because it was atypical behaviour for her and they were able to discuss and she understood why it was wrong and apologised it didn’t go further than that. She does have a diagnosis though which helps.

[Loesje22000]

DC and DH are here both ‘somewhere on the spectrum’ in our household.

When dc hit puberty we explicitly used DHs experience to explain how to navigate as an neurodivergent adult in a neurotypical world. It bond them very much together, knowing they were not alone in this world full of aliens :). And yes there is a lot to teach explicitely. 
 

I was used as interpretor / bridge to the neurotypical world.

[Lecka]

This is some self-reflection… I have little parenting experience with a child who beats herself up for making a mistake.  If that is going on here, I have little to offer.  
 

I have seen times and had it happen myself, where it’s assumed kids are so embarrassed and maybe it’s also a very awkward situation as well, and so people move on or gloss over things, and honestly if the child is not aware of something going wrong and why, it’s a missed learning experience.  I do think, if it’s clear something is missing that needs to be responded to, but the situation is not one to dwell on, then the issue that’s been identified can be addressed over time in the future, without tying it back to “remember when that thing happened.”  It can be something that’s addressed by teaching or supervision.  
 

What I have the most personal experience with:  is someone whose own personal logic says “this isn’t a big deal,” and continues to think that even when there is evidence showing other people think it’s a big deal.  Then I think it can be appropriate to stay on it, in a way I would think would be harmful to someone “beating herself up.”  
 

I think it’s a reasonable goal to think, if as an adult somebody wants to make unconventional choices, they should at least understand how those choices might affect them.  I am really saddened by the scenario:  “I am going to make my unconventional choices and there’s nothing wrong with that…..” which I think is true…. Tied with “I don’t understand why I am experiencing certain consequences” that to me are clearly tied to certain unconventional choices or personality traits (the kind that could be changed if someone knew *why* they might want to change them, but why change them with no idea they are leading to unwanted personal challenges…).  
 

Because there’s a lot of this one in my family, I am seriously willing to be blunt and not blow things over.  I still make mistakes where I realize I did not realize the big picture and then adjust later, like I didn’t realize my child’s thought process or I didn’t make sense of the information in a way I did later.  
 

But if there is a “I beat myself up, I was not emotionally supported” parent, and they have a child who is just not beating him/herself up at all, in fact the opposite, I think that’s particularly hard.  
 

I also think it’s particularly hard when parents aren’t aware of all the social norms and expectations themselves, and so they don’t provide feedback.   
 

Then I think it can be a Godsend if there is a teacher like Amanda VT who can talk to the child!!!!!!!!  And/or if there is a plan the school thinks would be good to address things!!!!!!

 

But with a flip side, if it’s not a good plan for the child, that’s not okay.  But I am a “glass half filled” person on this, I think a lot of people who work in schools are good at things like this, and it’s not their own child, and various things.  So I do hope you get good support from the school!  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

So I did use AmandaVT’s script, with some extra thrown in about why her best friend and some other kids found some of the snarky comments hurtful and not funny.  I also added in that what we see in sitcoms and movies that is funny on the screen doesn’t always translate to funny in the real world, because I suspect that’s some of what’s going on here. 
She was really upset when I explained why others were hurt or worried about this email.  She just thought it would be funny.  She did write an apology email letting everyone know she wasn’t actually hacked and just thought it would be funny.  I don’t know that she really fully grasped all of it but she did understand that it had hurt people’s feelings.

Her best friend’s feelings are really hurt and I told her she should call Her BFF and apologize over the phone today and not over email.  I’ve talked to the BFF’s mom and I don’t really know how this will go.

Autism is hard. She masked very well until about the age of ten, which I think is kind of typical for high functioning girls. I also know that her brother ticks all the stereotypical boxes but it was hard to get a diagnosis due to his verbal ability and high IQ, though we finally did after years of trying.  It would be even harder to get it for her.

Edited April 21 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[City Mouse]

It also sounds like this girl isn’t really ready to have unsupervised time with internet/ email.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

10 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

It also sounds like this girl isn’t really ready to have unsupervised time with internet/ email.  

It’s a school account. She set up the scheduled emails while at school. She doesn’t have access at home unless she’s using my laptop.

[KSera]

35 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

She masked very well until about the age of ten, which I think is kind of typical for high functioning girls. I also know that her brother ticks all the stereotypical boxes but it was hard to get a diagnosis due to his verbal ability and high IQ, though we finally did after years of trying.  It would be even harder to get it for her.

That was similar for my girls, except they were early teens. We were able to find someone experienced in recognizing autism in gifted girls. Perhaps you can find someone like that near you?

[Innisfree]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

That was similar for my girls, except they were early teens. We were able to find someone experienced in recognizing autism in gifted girls. Perhaps you can find someone like that near you?

Or, alternatively, just find the right person, wherever they are, and take a trip or two for evaluation appointments. We had to go out of town, though only a two hour drive. In my experience, getting the diagnosis has been important enough to justify a flight and an overnight stay. Early help, while the kid is either receptive or is young enough that you can mandate necessary intervention, can be critical. (In the OP’s case, it might not be critical; for us it was, and I’d hate for others to not consider the option of going where the diagnosis is available if it’s important for them. Actually having that diagnosis can make a big difference in the help that’s available for a child.)

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

We actually traveled three hours for my son’s diagnosis. I am not opposed to it, but my daughter is greatly opposed to receiving a diagnosis and I’m not sure we’d even get anywhere. And it would likely be a two year wait. 

I was diagnosed at 37.  But that person only evaluates adults.  We talk a lot about autism in my house and I think she recognizes that she’s neurodivergent, but life is hard enough at almost 12. 

[SanDiegoMom]

Autism aside, sometimes people just make stupid judgement calls, period. My husband is neurotypical, and as an adult in the military was surrounded by people playing practical jokes. He played one on me similar to the email situation -- I emailed my kid's Kindergarten teacher about a situation I was incredibly nervous about.  I found it very difficult to be the squeaky wheel at school and I had a lot of social anxiety. He created a fake email address from her and sent back a reply that was somewhat harsh, and that he thought for sure I would be able to tell was not from her.  I was devastated.  Even after he apologized profusely, it still hung over me as if she HAD written it.  It took a long time to shake! We laugh about it 1now 3 years later, but that is an example of how people still are finding the boundaries of what's acceptable even as adults!   

 

[Innisfree]

5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

We actually traveled three hours for my son’s diagnosis. I am not opposed to it, but my daughter is greatly opposed to receiving a diagnosis and I’m not sure we’d even get anywhere. And it would likely be a two year wait. 

I was diagnosed at 37.  But that person only evaluates adults.  We talk a lot about autism in my house and I think she recognizes that she’s neurodivergent, but life is hard enough at almost 12. 

Understood. As I said, the diagnosis might not be necessary for her; you and probably she already understand a lot of what’s going on, and you’re already tied in to the autism community and know what help is available. I just always hate hearing people say that they can’t get a diagnosis because of geographic location. I was mostly writing for others reading along. 

Edited April 21 by Innisfree

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

33 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Understood. As I said, the diagnosis might not be necessary for her; you and probably she already understand a lot of what’s going on, and you’re already tied in to the autism community and know what help is available. I just always hate hearing people say that they can’t get a diagnosis because of geographic location. I was mostly writing for others reading along. 

I’ll be honest that it was really healing to hear that I have autism.  I really wish it was easier to get evaluated and a true diagnosis, especially for girls and women.

[KSera]

29 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I am not opposed to it, but my daughter is greatly opposed to receiving a diagnosis and I’m not sure we’d even get anywhere. And it would likely be a two year wait. 

This does make it much harder if she is opposed. I would take that into consideration at this point, while also being aware you might need it for services at some point. I never in a million years thought my kids would need any special services when they were that age, but things got much more difficult in young adulthood and the diagnoses were necessary for certain things. I’d be inclined to get on a waitlist somewhere, prior to high school at least, and then you have an appointment if needed. 

[Lecka]

It might be worth role-playing the phone conversation.

It might be worth writing out a template of things that might be said and what she could say.  

It might make her more nervous to do things like that, or it might be helpful.  You can see how she responds.  
 

I think if it doesn’t go as well as possible, there’s a lot of room to talk to her about you know she didn’t do it on purpose and she has made amends.  I think parent support is really important here, and so is a formal process.  I think it’s really difficult and it helps to show there can be a process with steps to take, it’s not a mystery.  
 

 

[SKL]

It might help to let her know that even for people who aren't autistic, it can be difficult to know what other people will find funny.

And as I've told my girls, just as a baseline, assume that anything personal will NOT be considered funny by the target (best friend or not).  Safe jokes are more along the lines of completely made-up stories about made-up characters, preferably animals or inanimate objects.  ("A dog, a cat, and a goat met along the road.")  Or sharing a favorite cartoon, joke book, or comedy story that she didn't write herself.

I agree with her giving an apology stating that she thought she was funny, realized it wasn't funny to everyone, and apologizes.

I agree with a more personal apology to the best friend who is offended.  In doing this, she should make sure she's actually taking responsibility and not saying essentially "I'm sorry you're so sensitive."  Maybe something along the lines of "I wish I hadn't sent it, but the reaction has taught me that I need to be better about seeing things from other people's point of view.  I'm really sorry, and I will try not to screw up again, but if I ever do, please tell me and I'll work harder on this.  Please know I would never purposefully hurt your feelings."

And then, a couple things - (1) don't demand forgiveness right away; let the other person work through these thoughts on their own schedule; and (2) you can't control the outcome.  Hopefully the friend will eventually be OK, but it's her decision to work through.

Edited April 21 by SKL

[katilac]

Am I the only one baffled at 11-yr-olds sending each other personal emails?

I don't know anyone under 30 who uses email outside of work. Kids that don't have phones message on a different device. 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

12 minutes ago, katilac said:

Am I the only one baffled at 11-yr-olds sending each other personal emails?

I don't know anyone under 30 who uses email outside of work. Kids that don't have phones message on a different device. 

 

It’s a small, religious school. I think there are less than 10 kids in her class and none have phones. She is the only one with a tablet though I think several must have laptops since they’ve seen the email. They have extensive email chains in school as the school Chromebook’s are all the tech that is allowed in school. Parents overall seem pretty anti screen which I appreciate in general lol.