Settling my father's very small estate.

[Ting Tang]

I come from a dysfunctional family, and my parents divorced quite some time ago.  My father just passed away, and he left very little.  I'm estimating $20,000 in cash and $20,000 in stock plus a small checking account for daily life.  When my father died, my brother and his wife took his computer and was able to access it all.  My father told me my brother and I were beneficiaries on his accounts.

It was my brother's idea to have a visitation with viewing, and he told me it was about $9800.  I never saw a bill, but he signed his name to the contract.  I never said I didn't want a viewing, which did increase the price, but in my mind I knew I couldn't say anything if my brother felt it was important to see my dad again.  

Anyway, my husband and I are not rich with four kids, but we are comfortable.  My brother is married, and though I know they are not well off, I thought they were getting by.  My brother said our dad had enough in his accounts to cover the funeral.  My well-off aunt and her husband ended up sending my brother a $10,000 check to cover the costs.

A few days after the funeral, my brother told me they used the money to catch up on car payments, etc.  He said money was coming into his business to replace it.  Then the story changed.  He was then going to use my dad's money to pay the funeral home.  He said he had 30 days.  Well, that date has passed.  And he recently told me he "did nothing" yet with anything.  So...if you're following me...if he has done nothing with the accounts, then the funeral home hasn't been paid.

I really wanted to pay my aunt half of it back from my dad's money, but I'm growing skeptical.  Could my brother be using my dad's accounts since he has access and whatnot?  I've not told my aunt anything.  I haven't gotten a death certificate.  I'm afraid to cause a problem if things are getting taken care of...  Now my dad had an apartment and should have gotten a security deposit back.  Where is that money?  My brother pulled money out of my dad's checking somehow to make sure no more payments could come out of that after death---not sure where that is.  

I'm guessing I won't see a penny of that money.  My husband and I are okay with that.  My husband just wants to make sure we aren't paying twice on a funeral between my aunt and us.

My aunt and uncle said they didn't want to be repaid.  I suppose we could go into our own funds and pay her back.  My dad's mom is still alive, too, and both she and my aunt couldn't come due to their health---but they didn't think it was wise to spend this money and said my dad wouldn't have wanted that.  I know my brother struggles in life, and sometimes I feel sorry for him. He had cancer, which I'm sure didn't help their finances when he couldn't work, but I'm just wondering what I should do at this point.  Nothing? 

 

[TechWife]

Did your father have a will? If not, and he left that much $ there are legalities to jump through and state laws that determine what happens to his assets. Whether or not there is a will, you might want to call an attorney to find out how to proceed. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by TechWife

[DawnM]

The only way you are going to know for sure is to bring everything to light and ask for receipts and bank statements.   It sounds like he is hoping to just take it all and not share.   I wouldn't be ok with that, but if you are, that is certainly your choice.

All of this should be open and available for you to see.   This is a reason I am glad I was an only child.   I dread when DH's mom passes away.  His sister is greedy and I think she is the POA over the account.   

[Laura Corin]

55 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Did your father have a will? If not, and he left that much $ there are legalities to jump through and state laws that determine what happens to his assets. Whether or not there is a will, you might want to call an attorney to find out how to proceed. 

I don't know if it's the same there, but my mum's assets all had to be declared by the executors, who were then legally responsible for documenting the distribution. 

[marbel]

I was the executor of my mom's will. The lawyer I worked with strongly emphasized my fiduciary responsibility to the other beneficiaries of her estate. As DawnM said, it's up to you if you are OK with your brother taking it all, but you are well within your rights to ask questions. I am not sure of this, but your brother may have accessed the bank accounts illegally. Just because he had the password doesn't mean he is entitled to access the funds.

ETA if he was co-owner of the accounts it might be different. But my memory of working in banking, and my own experience as executor tells me the accounts should be frozen upon death of an owner. May vary by state law of course! 

Edited January 1 by marbel

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I don't know if it's the same there, but my mum's assets all had to be declared by the executors, who were then legally responsible for documenting the distribution. 

It’s the same here. If someone has a will, then they designate an executor in the will. If there isn’t a will, then usually a relative will petition the court to be declared the executor. The judge can grant the petition or can appoint someone else. The executor is responsible for “executing” the provisions of the will. Without a will, the executor is responsible for following the relevant state’s laws regarding settling any debt and distribution of any assets. 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My brother pulled money out of my dad's checking somehow to make sure no more payments could come out of that after death---not sure where that is.  

Its fraud though unless he is the joint account holder. If he is accessing your dad’s account by saved passwords on your dad’s computer, it is definitely fraud even if he is the only beneficiary. When my mom passed, my dad had to show the bank a copy of the death certificate and have my mom’s name removed from their joint accounts. 

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My brother said our dad had enough in his accounts to cover the funeral.  My well-off aunt and her husband ended up sending my brother a $10,000 check to cover the costs.

For my side of the family, the funeral expenses is taken from the estate if there wasn’t money set aside for funeral expenses. The money given by relatives and friends for the funeral offsets funeral expenses. Any money left goes firstly to the surviving spouse (if any, not divorced), then to the estate. 
 

When my mom passed, my dad paid $25k for funeral expenses out of their joint account. Whatever donations came for her funeral goes to my dad. For my dad, when the time comes, I would be paying first and then claiming from my dad’s estate. Since the decision is to have the same funeral package at the same funeral parlor as my mom, there would be no ambiguity on expenses when the time comes. 

[marbel]

18 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

For my side of the family, the funeral expenses is taken from the estate if there wasn’t money set aside for funeral expenses. The money given by relatives and friends for the funeral offsets funeral expenses. Any money left goes firstly to the surviving spouse (if any, not divorced), then to the estate. 
 

When my mom passed, my dad paid $25k for funeral expenses out of their joint account. Whatever donations came for her funeral goes to my dad. For my dad, when the time comes, I would be paying first and then claiming from my dad’s estate. Since the decision is to have the same funeral package at the same funeral parlor as my mom, there would be no ambiguity on expenses when the time comes. 

When my mother died, I paid the funeral expenses and then, as executor once I had access to the funds, I reimbursed myself. But I needed death cert to access the funds.

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, marbel said:

But I needed death cert to access the funds.

Same. I am the executor for both my parents and needed my mom’s death cert for my mom’s monies (not joint) to be distributed.

[Bootsie]

There isn't going to be a simple answer to the process which should be followed.,  What your brother can legally do will depend upon what the ownership of the accounts is; whether your father had a will (and what was in the will); and what state laws are in the state he resided in.  Funeral homes are used to working with these type of scenarios and would probably know whether your brother had the legal right to sign a contact that funds from the estate would be used for the funeral.  

[katilac]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but paying upfront for funerals is very much the norm. It would very surprising, ime, to have a net 30 funeral. 

Did your dad not have any life insurance at all? It's very common to bring the insurance policy in and sign a contract giving the insurance company permission to pay the funeral home X amount directly. 

Because there was a funeral, the death certificate has been filed, and you getting a copy of it makes no difference. 

I would google "settling an estate MY STATE" and get some information. I would want to know what the estate was versus guessing, and I would want it to be handled properly. 

In the end, I'd probably be okay with my sibling getting whatever money is left in these circumstances, but the funeral needs to come out of that. That is what would push me to get the details. It's also better for your brother to have to 'fess up now if he's doing things in a non-prescribed manner, rather than have it possibly become a much bigger deal down the road. It's one thing for you to be okay with not getting money, but 

Once you have a bit of insight into the process (which is a google search away), you need to just tell your brother that you need all pertinent information. Tell him it's important to follow the probate process, and thus someone needs to be named as executor. If your brother states that he is executor, then a will exists, and you want to see if. 

You and your brother would have equal standing to be executor if one is not named in a will. You could also choose the route of seeing if probate has been filed before asking your brother (if he hasn't done anything, then it hasn't, but you can verify). Actually, I somewhat change what I wrote above: ask your brother if there is a will first. If there is, obviously you want to see it. This will tell you if an executor is named. If none is named, I'd consider petitioning the courts to be executor so that you know it is done right. 

It doesn't sound like your brother is up to the task or being transparent about what is happening. If there is no will, I'd quietly file to be executor. You can tell him he handled the funeral so it makes sense for you to handle probate, and you will keep him informed. 

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all so much for weighing in. The other day he asked for some information from me, so it caused me to wonder if he was doing things on the straight and narrow after all.  But I do believe he was dishonest with my aunt, so it is hard to know.  My father did not have a will but did communicate with me about my brother and I being beneficiaries and to split whatever there was; also, he did not have life insurance.  

[TechWife]

22 hours ago, katilac said:

I'm not saying it's impossible, but paying upfront for funerals is very much the norm. It would very surprising, ime, to have a net 30 funeral. 

 

That amount is within the realm of normal for a modest funeral.

 

[Arcadia]

33 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

My father did not have a will but did communicate with me about my brother and I being beneficiaries and to split whatever there was

When we added our kids as beneficiaries to our bank accounts, the banks wanted their names and birthdates. We asked and the bank said that our kids would have to show up with the death certificate to claim. The stock brokerage firm would also require a death certificate for beneficiaries to claim. 
In your case, I would ask your brother to go to the bank and brokerage together and get everything done above board.

My late mom left $10k each to my brother and I from her personal account. His wife questioned the amount 🤦‍♀️ She forgot that most of the monies would go to my dad as the joint bank accounts holder. 

[BusyMom5]

It depends on how the accounts are set up at the bank and the brokerage.  If it's your dad only as owner, with both of you as beneficiaries, then it should have been frozen until you both show up with the death certificate.  If your Dad had your brother on there as a co-owner, then your brother has full rights to the money legally (at least he would here).  Do you have any idea how the accounts were set up?  If you question anything, call the bank and ask.  Call the brokerage and ask.  

[marbel]

1 minute ago, BusyMom5 said:

It depends on how the accounts are set up at the bank and the brokerage.  If it's your dad only as owner, with both of you as beneficiaries, then it should have been frozen until you both show up with the death certificate.  If your Dad had your brother on there as a co-owner, then your brother has full rights to the money legally (at least he would here).  Do you have any idea how the accounts were set up?  If you question anything, call the bank and ask.  Call the brokerage and ask.  

If she's not on the accounts, she won't get any information from the bank. I don't know about brokerage firms, but I assume they have the same responsibility for confidentiality as bank.  

[BusyMom5]

9 minutes ago, marbel said:

If she's not on the accounts, she won't get any information from the bank. I don't know about brokerage firms, but I assume they have the same responsibility for confidentiality as bank.  

Yes, but they may not know he is deceased!  If she alerts them, and brother isn't as owner, the accounts would be frozen. 

[Pippen]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

It depends on how the accounts are set up at the bank and the brokerage.  If it's your dad only as owner, with both of you as beneficiaries, then it should have been frozen until you both show up with the death certificate.  If your Dad had your brother on there as a co-owner, then your brother has full rights to the money legally (at least he would here).  Do you have any idea how the accounts were set up?  If you question anything, call the bank and ask.  Call the brokerage and ask.  

Even if there are beneficiaries listed, they wouldn't necessarily have access to the accounts, even with a death certificate and valid will. Only the executor that is appointed by the probate court would have access , and only after they have the appropriate documents granting them authority in hand. I was my mom's executor--as well as a beneficiary. The bank would answer questions about her account, such as amounts, bills that were paid, etc. But I couldn't transfer any funds or use her funds to pay any of her bills that weren't on autopay. 

My dad's situation was different as he died in a state where small estates (under $50,000 in assets and no real estate) didn't have to go through probate court. A valid will and death certificate was all that was needed for me to have access to his accounts as his executor. 

Edited January 4 by Pippen

[katilac]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:47 PM, TechWife said:

That amount is within the realm of normal for a modest funeral.

I didn't say anything about the cost of the funeral, but rather having 30 days to pay for it (net 30). 

That would be very unusual where I live, particularly for someone who likely has bad credit.