Awkward question around current events

[Terabith]

I’m not sure if this belongs on the politics board, but I think it might be okay here.  And I really, really am not sure how to ask this in a way that might not be offensive, so please help me if I do this wrong.  I’m trying to learn.  
 

Of course Israel has to defend themselves against this current atrocity and Hamas is a horrible terrorist.  What is going on over there is beyond horrific.  But I am wondering…what the heck were we thinking?

The Jews absolutely, 100% needed and deserved a homeland after the horrific atrocities of World War 2.  And I know they wanted their historic homeland. But how could the United Nations (and honestly largely the United States) just give them this land where other people were living?  I know that is what colonialism is, but this wasn’t that long ago.  We knew that colonialism was a bad idea.  And we just awarded a country by fiat and expected everyone to go along with it?  
 

If we had awarded a Jewish homeland out of Germany, say, I could see the justice. But I truly don’t understand.  I never had modern history or even got much past the Civil War when I was in school, and I sent my kids to school the year before we would have studied modern history, so I have some huge gaps in my historical understanding.  But it just seems staggeringly arrogant and odd that we did that.  Is there something that I am missing?  It seems to me like things like what are currently happening are inevitable given the daily lives of the Palestinians. (Who are obviously very different from the terrorist group conducting this war)

[kbutton]

So, are you asking for sources to learn about the history of the area? (Trying to keep it on the rails for you, lol!)

[Terabith]

Just now, kbutton said:

So, are you asking for sources to learn about the history of the area? (Trying to keep it on the rails for you, lol!)

I would love to have sources. But also I’m just wondering if there is a short synopsis that would help me understand what the thinking around it was?  

[Ting Tang]

I agree that it is hard to understand.  I tried to read about the agreement made and we read a bit last year, but I still do not have the answer.  The worst part is the terrorizing of ordinary civilians happening right now by Hamas.  Maybe someone else will chime in.  I don't see why we can't discuss it.  I know many have empathy for Palestine and are more vocal about it these days, and many side with Israel.  And then there are those of us who think it is all horrible what happens to ordinary people caught in this conflict on both sides.  

[Heartstrings]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

he Jews absolutely, 100% needed and deserved a homeland after the horrific atrocities of World War 2.  And I know they wanted their historic homeland. But how could the United Nations (and honestly largely the United States) just give them this land where other people were living?  I know that is what colonialism is, but this wasn’t that long ago.  We knew that colonialism was a bad idea.  And we just awarded a country by fiat and expected everyone to go along with it?

I have nothing to add but I’ve always had this exact same question.  Just as a lay person it seems poorly thought out and I’ve never gotten an explanation that made any sense to me what so ever.    So you aren’t alone in not understanding.   

Edited October 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Zoo Keeper]

I found this article from the BBC helpful...it uses maps to help explain... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

I found this article from the BBC helpful...it uses maps to help explain... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567

I think the opening paragraph lays out the parts I don’t fully understand, and just smacks of what I can only call arrogance.  
 

“The land which would become Israel was for centuries part of the Turkish-ruled Ottoman Empire. After World War One and the collapse of the empire, territory known as Palestine - the portion of which west of the River Jordan was also known as the land of Israel by Jews - was marked out and assigned to Britain to administer by the victorious allied powers (soon after endorsed by the League of Nations). The terms of the mandate entrusted Britain with establishing in Palestine "a national home for the Jewish people", so long as doing so did not prejudice the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities there.”

 

 

Why was Britain in charge of it? Why in this location? Did they really expect the people being kicked out to just be ok with it?   All of what’s happening today seems like it was predictable or that it would take much more force and violence to enforce than it seems like they anticipated.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Terabith]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the opening paragraph lays out the parts I don’t fully understand, and just smacks of what I can only call arrogance.  
 

“The land which would become Israel was for centuries part of the Turkish-ruled Ottoman Empire. After World War One and the collapse of the empire, territory known as Palestine - the portion of which west of the River Jordan was also known as the land of Israel by Jews - was marked out and assigned to Britain to administer by the victorious allied powers (soon after endorsed by the League of Nations). The terms of the mandate entrusted Britain with establishing in Palestine "a national home for the Jewish people", so long as doing so did not prejudice the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities there.”

 

 

Why was Britain in charge of it? Why in this location? Did they really expect the people being kicked out to just be ok with it?   All of what’s happening today seems like it was predictable or that it would take much more force and violence to enforce than it seems like they anticipated.  

Exactly.  That's what I don't understand.  It seems so predictable. And also this part:  "The plan was accepted by Palestine's Jewish leadership but rejected by Arab leaders."

So then they just go ahead with it, and are shocked that there's an immediate war? 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Terabith

[prairiewindmomma]

One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate  might be helpful.

Palestine had been part of the Ottoman Empire. With its decline and as punishment post WWI, under the Sykes-Picot agreement, Britain and France and Bolshevik Russia divied up spheres of influence. 

[Melissa Louise]

Going by yesterday's WTM discussion, this does belong in politics, unless you are literally just asking for sources for books by subject experts etc.

The other thread was locked.

As a bonus, if you discuss in politics, you won't attract our resident holocaust denier/Nazi.

However, I won't be reporting the thread. It's an extremely complex area of history, however, and I really hope it doesn't veer into falsehood and anti-Semitic tropes.

(I may be sensitive - men in a suburb 2 min from here were out celebrating Hamas' great victory with fireworks, pro-Palestinian marches went ahead last night with police warning Jewish people to stay home,  people burning Israeli flag at the Opera House, man arrested for carrying an Israeli flag etc).

I do think it's interesting to compare how soon people were 'asking questions about context' after Bataclan, for example, or Manchester. There's always context. Be careful it doesn't become more about blaming the victims. 

Blood barely dry in this particular terrorist massacre. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

I'm not being rude, but if people actually haven't studied much history, Khan Academy has free resources that give an overview of how, for example, the Middle East ended up where it is today.

Not talking about this thread, but I am struck by the lack of historical literacy among many - many, many people seem to believe that there has long been a nation-state called Palestine, and that Jews came and invaded this land and are now settler-colonialists. That's not correct.

ETA I think this is why history study is so important. We understand the past to better understand the present. Khan is good, it really is. I'd go back to ancient history and work my way through the history of the region from there.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Terabith]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

I do think it's interesting to compare how soon people were 'asking questions about context' after Bataclan, for example, or Manchester. There's always context. Be careful it doesn't become more about blaming the victims. 

Blood barely dry in this particular terrorist massacre. 

Currently googling Bataclan and Manchester.  Honestly never heard of them.  I mean, I knew Manchester was a city in England?  

I also didn't know Khan had anything other than math and SAT prep.  I should have figured they did though.  

[Terabith]

Oh, I did know about the Paris attacks, just didn't know it was the Bataclan music venue.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

Currently googling Bataclan and Manchester.  Honestly never heard of them.  I mean, I knew Manchester was a city in England?  

I also didn't know Khan had anything other than math and SAT prep.  I should have figured they did though.  

Two terrorist massacres that also took place at music events.

 

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not being rude, but if people actually haven't studied much history, Khan Academy has free resources that give an overview of how, for example, the Middle East ended up where it is today.

Not talking about this thread, but I am struck by the lack of historical literacy among many - many, many people seem to believe that there has long been a nation-state called Palestine, and that Jews came and invaded this land and are now settler-colonialists. That's not correct.

I understand the basic historical machinations.   I’ve just never fully understood why they thought it was such a great idea, or how they ever thought a peaceful resolution would come from it.  A bunch of supposedly smart people just sort of said “nah, it’ll be fine, what could go wrong?” and we’re still living with it.  I don’t think Khan Academy is going to be able to explain that.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Two terrorist massacres that also took place at music events.

 

Never heard of them either.  🤷‍♀️   

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I understand the basic historical machinations.   I’ve just never fully understood why they thought it was such a great idea, or how they ever thought a peaceful resolution would come from it.  A bunch of supposedly smart people just sort of said “nah, it’ll be fine, what could go wrong?” and we’re still living with it.  

What do you think they should have done instead?

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Never heard of them either.  🤷‍♀️   

Perhaps I ought to have used Pulse attack as a comparator for Re'im.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

What do you think they should have done instead?

 

 

 

I’ve thought about that and I honestly don’t know, but it seems predictable that never ending war would be the result if this.  At the very least this particular plan seems not great in hindsight.  
 

Maybe this was the best option, but should have been approached slower or differently ? I don’t know, and feel limited in discussing it here instead of on the Politics bard.  

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not being rude, but if people actually haven't studied much history, Khan Academy has free resources that give an overview of how, for example, the Middle East ended up where it is today.

Not talking about this thread, but I am struck by the lack of historical literacy among many - many, many people seem to believe that there has long been a nation-state called Palestine, and that Jews came and invaded this land and are now settler-colonialists. That's not correct.

ETA I think this is why history study is so important. We understand the past to better understand the present. Khan is good, it really is. I'd go back to ancient history and work my way through the history of the region from there.

 

I have heard some of this history but not from one coherent place. In googling to find out what the region was like before the mandate, an encyclopedia is the best I can find.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine 
 

I haven’t read the whole entry, but it says that the region had no official status between Roman times and the mandate (but was part of Ottoman territory generally). 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

What do you think they should have done instead?

 

 

 

I honestly have no idea what they should have done.  It is entirely very possible that what they did absolutely was the best thing to do.  I really don't have any opinions on the matter, because I am aware that my ignorance is vast and that this is a topic with many, many, many layers.  And God knows the Jews absolutely needed a homeland after surviving extermination by the skin of their teeth.  I just have a lot of confusion and questions.   

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.facinghistory.org/

This is a good history site, aimed at secondary. I think you would like it, Terabith.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/world-history

https://www.oerproject.com/Origins-to-the-Present

https://www.oerproject.com/1200-to-the-Present

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’ve thought about that and I honestly don’t know, but it seems predictable that never ending war would be the result if this.  At the very least this particular plan seems not great in hindsight.  
 

Maybe this was the best option, but should have been approached slower or differently ? I don’t know, and feel limited in discussing it here instead of on the Politics bard.  

I think we need to remember, speaking of context, of the reasons why there may have been a rush to find security for Jews, post WW11.

 

 

[Terabith]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I think we need to remember, speaking of context, of the reasons why there may have been a rush to find security for Jews, post WW11.

 

 

Oh, for sure.  Massive need for safety.  

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think we need to remember, speaking of context, of the reasons why there may have been a rush to find security for Jews, post WW11.

 

 

If security was the goal then I’m not sure it was achieved.  Settling the Jews in the midst of historical enemies doesn’t scream SECURITY to me.   I’m sure security was a goal, but what about this location made them think it was meeting that goal, or could eventually meet that goal? 
 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I honestly have no idea what they should have done.  It is entirely very possible that what they did absolutely was the best thing to do.  I really don't have any opinions on the matter, because I am aware that my ignorance is vast and that this is a topic with many, many, many layers.  And God knows the Jews absolutely needed a homeland after surviving extermination by the skin of their teeth.  I just have a lot of confusion and questions.   

I honestly think that it's a good idea to do an overview of world history of the region before trying to understand the detailed complexity. It's hard enough to assess sources for bias with an overview, let alone without one.

I really like the links above. I also did not get a great history education (though I did study Modern History), and I have appreciated filling in many gaps over time using those resources and more. More and more I think we need to understand all antecedents. For example, if you don't know anything about the Ottomans (I didn't, for a long time), how can you know anything about, say, the birth of Turkey as a nation state?

There is a site I really like called Five Reads. They have experts recommend five books on a topic - a mix of fiction and non-fiction. That can be a really good supplement to history studies. There will be Five Reads on Israel-Palestinians, I'm sure.

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Oh, for sure.  Massive need for safety.  

Existential need for safety + massive failure of the West to grapple with their own antisemitism.

[BronzeTurtle]

It is not hard to believe that people don't know that much about this stuff.

The Manchester bombing was a major global news event that happened 6? years ago. A major American pop star was performing. And people don't remember it.

1948 and previous may as well be prehistoric.

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

If security was the goal then I’m not sure it was achieved.  Settling the Jews in the midst of historical enemies doesn’t scream SECURITY to me.   I’m sure security was a goal, but what about this location made them think it was meeting that goal, or could eventually meet that goal? 
 

 

The world is full of historical enemies of the Jews, sadly.

 

 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I honestly think that it's a good idea to do an overview of world history of the region before trying to understand the detailed complexity. It's hard enough to assess sources for bias with an overview, let alone without one.

I really like the links above. I also did not get a great history education (though I did study Modern History), and I have appreciated filling in many gaps over time using those resources and more. More and more I think we need to understand all antecedents. For example, if you don't know anything about the Ottomans (I didn't, for a long time), how can you know anything about, say, the birth of Turkey as a nation state?

There is a site I really like called Five Reads. They have experts recommend five books on a topic - a mix of fiction and non-fiction. That can be a really good supplement to history studies. There will be Five Reads on Israel-Palestinians, I'm sure.

Oooohh, that sounds awesome!  Thank you!

[Heartstrings]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

It is not hard to believe that people don't know that much about this stuff.

The Manchester bombing was a major global news event that happened 6? years ago. A major American pop star was performing. And people don't remember it.

1948 and previous may as well be prehistoric.

There have been a lot of terrorism events globally in the past 20+ years, plus all sorts of other stuff.  We were at war, we have a new school shooting every few days, etc.  A terrorism event 6 years ago in another country is just not going to stick, any more than I expect people in Manchester to know what I mean if I say Columbine or Uvalde.   

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

It is not hard to believe that people don't know that much about this stuff.

The Manchester bombing was a major global news event that happened 6? years ago. A major American pop star was performing. And people don't remember it.

1948 and previous may as well be prehistoric.

I think it's really understandable people don't know much about the establishment of Israel as a modern nation state. History education is poor, generally, and I know from personal experience how many gaps I have. Many, so many.

I'm surprised people don't know about contemporary terror attacks, though. Bataclan interests me as a comparator - there was no hand-wringing about standing with the French people, or cities displaying the French flag etc. And yet, there is surely 'context' re Algeria. It is hard not to think that yet again, Israel is singled out as an exception to empathy.

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Oooohh, that sounds awesome!  Thank you!

You will see more books than you can responsibly buy 🙂 Just a heads  up!

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

There have been a lot of terrorism events globally in the past 20+ years, plus all sorts of other stuff.  We were at war, we have a new school shooting every few days, etc.  A terrorism event 6 years ago in another country is just not going to stick, any more than I expect people in Manchester to know what I mean if I say Columbine or Uvalde.   

But we would know.

'We' being university educated women with an interest in current affairs.

[Melissa Louise]

OK, banning myself now, or trying to - I tried to get back on track re history resources. Don't really trust myself not to be reactive given context here as above.

Hope you get some more good resources, Terabith.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's really understandable people don't know much about the establishment of Israel as a modern nation state. History education is poor, generally, and I know from personal experience how many gaps I have. Many, so many.

I'm surprised people don't know about contemporary terror attacks, though. Bataclan interests me as a comparator - there was no hand-wringing about standing with the French people, or cities displaying the French flag etc. And yet, there is surely 'context' re Algeria. It is hard not to think that yet again, Israel is singled out as an exception to empathy.

 

I’m sure that’s part of it, but Israel also dominates US politics and news in a way that puts it in the forefront of our minds.  Our congress people wear Stand with Israel pins, our politicians have to make statements about Israel during elections, Israel is a cornerstone of our national defense.  It’s a “very special relationship” in a way that France or Algeria just don’t come close to. 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's really understandable people don't know much about the establishment of Israel as a modern nation state. History education is poor, generally, and I know from personal experience how many gaps I have. Many, so many.

I'm surprised people don't know about contemporary terror attacks, though. Bataclan interests me as a comparator - there was no hand-wringing about standing with the French people, or cities displaying the French flag etc. And yet, there is surely 'context' re Algeria. It is hard not to think that yet again, Israel is singled out as an exception to empathy.

 

I have TONS of empathy for Israel.  Loads and loads.  

I just also have empathy for the other people, too?

[Melissa in Australia]

Not non fiction, but very informative of the history of the area throughout the centuries, The Source by James Mitchener 

[denarii]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

There is a site I really like called Five Reads. They have experts recommend five books on a topic - a mix of fiction and non-fiction. That can be a really good supplement to history studies. There will be Five Reads on Israel-Palestinians, I'm sure.

https://fivebooks.com/category/world/asia/middle-east/israel/

Incase anyone is interested in the site Melissa Louise mentioned. 

[Terabith]

Just now, denarii said:

https://fivebooks.com/category/world/asia/middle-east/israel/

Incase anyone is interested in the site Melissa Louise mentioned. 

Requesting books from my local library right now!

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

I have TONS of empathy for Israel.  Loads and loads.  

I just also have empathy for the other people, too?

OK, well this just feels like fuel on the fire to me. I have explained that where I live, it is not the Jews who are safe on the streets, as per the police. That is the context in which I feel reactive. Suggesting that it's lack of compassion for Palestinian civilians is....OK. As I said, I'm out.

[Mama Geek]

I haven't been posting in a long time, but still read the boards.  I just figured out how to relog in because of this question.  I have gone through all of SWB history books over the years with dd and they really give you a pretty good idea of what has gone on in the past.  I have also read several of the Uncle Eric books after reading SWB books and that explains things as well.

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

OK, well this just feels like fuel on the fire to me. I have explained that where I live, it is not the Jews who are safe on the streets, as per the police. That is the context in which I feel reactive. Suggesting that it's lack of compassion for Palestinian civilians is....OK. As I said, I'm out.

Totally fair.  And I really, REALLY don't want to fan the fire.  I genuinely have tons of empathy for both sides, but if I had to pick a side, I'd pick Israel.  Jewish people have been persecuted for millenia and deserve every protection that is possible.  I just am genuinely curious about how the whole thing came about and what the thought process was.  

[Terabith]

13 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Not non fiction, but very informative of the history of the area throughout the centuries, The Source by James Mitchener 

I adore historically accurate fiction!  It really helps me understand, and it keeps my attention in a way nonfiction doesn't really, even when I'm genuinely interested in the subject.  Thank you!

[Grace Hopper]

37 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Not non fiction, but very informative of the history of the area throughout the centuries, The Source by James Mitchener 

How historically accurate is it? I understand Michener to be an excellent researcher, but do we know if he’s biased at all?

(I’ll look around and add links if I find answers to this)

[Corraleno]

35 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

It is not hard to believe that people don't know that much about this stuff.

The Manchester bombing was a major global news event that happened 6? years ago. A major American pop star was performing. And people don't remember it.

To be fair, I think if those events had been referred to as "the 2015 Paris terrorist attacks" and "the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert," almost everyone here would have understood the references. What I remember most about the 2015 attacks is that multiple ISIS groups hit several locations around Paris simultaneously, one of which was a theater, but I would not have remembered the specific name of the theater.  And while most people in the US would know about the bombing at the Ariana Grande concert, many may not remember the name of the city it happened in.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

If security was the goal then I’m not sure it was achieved.  Settling the Jews in the midst of historical enemies doesn’t scream SECURITY to me.   I’m sure security was a goal, but what about this location made them think it was meeting that goal, or could eventually meet that goal? 
 

 

Pretty sure the biblical history of the location was a big factor.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Pretty sure the biblical history of the location was a big factor.

I've never been sure how I felt about that.  

[SKL]

I remember the Paris and UK attacks but not by the venue name.  The US and other Western countries definitely showed solidarity at the time … actually more than I see now for Israel.

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

There have been a lot of terrorism events globally in the past 20+ years, plus all sorts of other stuff.  We were at war, we have a new school shooting every few days, etc.  A terrorism event 6 years ago in another country is just not going to stick, any more than I expect people in Manchester to know what I mean if I say Columbine or Uvalde.   

Maybe but a bunch of people I know in NA put french flags as their FB avatar when Bataclan happened, and the Ariana Grande concert thing was all over US and Canadian news for at least a week or two. Manchester was a big deal among young people too because of Ariana Grande. It would actually probably be the most well known of the two because of her (for better or worse on that front). Perhaps someone would remember doing that (changing their avatar) and not why, but that's sort of my point. In light of forgetting contemporary big events so quickly, it is not surprising that people don't know the complexity of ME relations and the establishment of Israel.

 

18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

To be fair, I think if those events had been referred to as "the 2015 Paris terrorist attacks" and "the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert," almost everyone here would have understood the references. What I remember most about the 2015 attacks is that multiple ISIS groups hit several locations around Paris simultaneously, one of which was a theater, but I would not have remembered the specific name of the theater.  And while most people in the US would know about the bombing at the Ariana Grande concert, many may not remember the name of the city it happened in.

Fair enough. they just seemed to be, at the time, very major international events that got people rallied in support of the victims. international news coverage for more than the standard 24hr cycle.