Hive thoughts: CC, Sunday School

[Pawz4me]

47 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

They’re a fringe and that’s where they belong. 

Except in some areas of the country it's not fringe. It's the majority, or at least seems to be. I'm judging that by the other flags, symbols, and stickers I see displayed along with the Gadsden flag in my area. I will readily concede that the majority may use it differently in other areas of the country, but a majority benign use or intent is NOT what I perceive in my area.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

2. Right now a group/movement of Americans who are anti-government have decided this flag with its inherent revolutionary connotation is a good one to carry as part of their movement. 

I think it is is more anti government than racist as for as its implication - BUT right now those who are anti government (to the point of revolution) are also often racist. But I don't think the flag itself is meant to symbolize racism even within those groups

I agree.   It’s a “movement” that brings several different groups and ideaologues together, all having different motivation and goals.  There is significant overlap with the racists and the anti government types.  I don’t think the country envisioned by the anti government types is a place of racial diversity and equity, even if racism isn’t their primary goal.   It’s hard to talk in generalities about such a loosely organized coalition. 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Except in some areas of the country it's not fringe. It's the majority, or at least seems to be. I'm judging that by the other flags, symbols, and stickers I see displayed along with the Gadsden flag in my area. I will readily concede that the majority may use it differently in other areas of the country, but a majority benign use or intent is NOT what I perceive in my area.

Absolutely.   While the ones actually in a militia might be fringe, they have a lot of sympathy and support at home.   I’m glad that that’s a foreign concept for some people.  I wish I lived where that was true.  

[KSera]

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, that was what I thought, too.  I was confused by the comment about Tea Party in the 70's.  I lived in the DC area in the 70's and in 2009.  I am not sure when Obamacare was enacted, but there was a very large peaceful Tea Party march to the Capitol then.  

I corrected that in a follow up post way back. I was giving a quick overview and meant to say Libertarians in the 70s and Tea Party in the early 2000s. 

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Absolutely.   While the ones actually in a militia might be fringe, they have a lot of sympathy and support at home.   I’m glad that that’s a foreign concept for some people.  I wish I lived where that was true.  

This is correct. We have sheriffs in my state that give full support of these groups, and refuse to arrest them when they break weapons laws, violate parole, commit domestic violence, make death threats. Public support from key people puts fringe, radicals in power.

[QueenCat]

21 hours ago, Lecka said:

For other churches, they don’t really know what they are going to do when their pastor leaves.  

UMC churches do not conduct searches for a pastor. Pastors are assigned by the district. The district also determines when it's time for a pastor to move to a new congregation. Usually, they stay for 3-5 years. 

[Ting Tang]

The flag's history dates back to the Revolutionary War.  Even the bad guys will misuse the American flag, so I wouldn't worry about the one man.  He might have good or bad intentions.  I always hope a true Christian has good intentions.

Politics aside, I would worry more about being a part of a church that doesn't align with my beliefs, and there can be so many differences within the realms of Christianity.  I think your whole family should be comfortable in your church home.  I'm sorry if I missed it, but I would definitely discuss it with your child.  If she is faithful, she should be comfortable engaging with the congregation in which she is a member.  There are many churches that are probably better for conservatives, and there are probably some that are better for liberals.  And probably lots of in-betweens.  I understand you chose to stay, despite the decision.  I am pretty conservative myself, but personally, I have no issue with gay people getting married.  I grew up with a gay uncle, and he has always had the same partner, and they made a very good life together.  I guess I think you can be conservative and gay.  Conservative is just a set of values to me that means you live respectfully.  If you're gay and you get married, you commit yourself to your spouse and whatever marriage is supposed to be...  It's not always who you vote for. So if your church isn't for that, and your child may one day marry someone of the same gender, I might consider that. Sorry, I didn't read the comments! 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Ting Tang

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Except in some areas of the country it's not fringe. It's the majority, or at least seems to be. I'm judging that by the other flags, symbols, and stickers I see displayed along with the Gadsden flag in my area. I will readily concede that the majority may use it differently in other areas of the country, but a majority benign use or intent is NOT what I perceive in my area.

Yeah, when the guy across the street from me at the old house put up a Gadsden flag post 2016 election, it wasn't because he was a revolutionary war buff. I'm not even sure he could pronounce revolutionary, or would know which war that was. 

[Lecka]

For the disaffiliated UMC churches — that are used to having an assigned pastor from the district — they won’t have an assigned pastor anymore so it will be something new.  
 

Edit:  I see it as a big issue because I’ve been in churches before that didn’t have an assigned pastor, and also didn’t have a younger pastor who was being groomed to take over and waiting in the wings.  Then — there’s some process to go through.  
 

But I think people who have always had an assigned pastor may not think of it as a new thing to figure out.  
 

Edit:  my understanding is also that if a church disaffiliates but the current pastor wants to stay with the UMC, they will be assigned to another church.  I’m not sure about that but it’s my impression, I guess.  

Edited August 31, 2023 by Lecka

[lauraw4321]

Our church had been exempt from the pastor rotation thing for awhile. The pastor we had when we joined was there for something like 20 years. Our new pastor (who led the disaffiliation charge) had been the lead pastor for probably 8 or so years. 

It's a big church, so I think they were able to have some of the "rules" not apply. We did have to pay a LOT of money to disaffiliate (and keep our campus).

[Danae]

17 minutes ago, Lecka said:

But I think people who have always had an assigned pastor may not think of it as a new thing to figure out.  
 

In fact there have been churches who didn’t realize that disaffiliating would mean they would not be appointed a new pastor.

it seems that there is a great deal of variation in how much information individual congregations have gotten about the details of what disaffiliation means before they vote.  Some people seem to be looking at it as a protest vote because they’re mad at the denomination and don’t realize how much work it will be to set up all the legalities of being an independent church.  And having to find their own pastor, and figure out pensions and health insurance, etc. 
 

23 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Edit:  my understanding is also that if a church disaffiliates but the current pastor wants to stay with the UMC, they will be assigned to another church.  I’m not sure about that but it’s my impression, I guess.  

That is correct.  

[TravelingChris]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:18 AM, Pawz4me said:

(Deleted text of original post -- I wanted to use an analogy that on second thought I just wasn't comfy with.)

In short -- I think it's more on the people who claim to use the Gadsden flag with benign intent to push back on the ones using it to signal other things than it is on the rest of us to assume benign intent, when our lived experience tells us that a significant portion of people using the symbol are not using it for benign reasons.

Sorry for the run on sentence!

Since I don't know any of the people who were there on Jan 6 or in Charlottesville, who exactly am I supposed to push back from? I bet the others who have a Gadsden flag here don't know any of those people too.  

[Pawz4me]

6 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Since I don't know any of the people who were there on Jan 6 or in Charlottesville, who exactly am I supposed to push back from? I bet the others who have a Gadsden flag here don't know any of those people too.  

It wouldn't be hard here. Someone using it for benign intent could easily look around and find a few of their neighbors--and probably members of their church--who need some 'splaining. 

[TravelingChris]

On 8/31/2023 at 1:35 PM, ktgrok said:

Yeah, when the guy across the street from me at the old house put up a Gadsden flag post 2016 election, it wasn't because he was a revolutionary war buff. I'm not even sure he could pronounce revolutionary, or would know which war that was. 

But what did it mean?  That he had an old Gadsden flag but couldn't afford a MAGA flag? 

Through all the Gadsden Flag hoopla recently, I found out that my state, along with 19 other states, some of which are blue states, have an optional Gadsden flag license plate.

AS to militias, again I don't know of any militias here, but then I live in a highly educated city and while guns are popular, nobody seems to see a need for a militia. 

[TravelingChris]

14 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It wouldn't be hard here. Someone using it for benign intent could easily look around and find a few of their neighbors--and probably members of their church--who need some 'splaining. 

I meant here like oin the Chat board.  

[Laura Corin]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:40 PM, Heartstrings said:

Of course it is.  But one group  has decided that they “own” patriotism and all of the symbols, making it troublesome for the rest of us.  

Here's another example. When I was growing up, most people in the UK would have avoided displaying the Union Flag (aka Union  Jack). At the time it had been co-opted by the far right and racist British Nationalist Party. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-london-uk-1st-june-2013-bnp-march-halted-by-a-large-group-of-anti-57023129.html

It was not pleasant to have the symbol twisted in this way, but it was more important to stand in solidarity with those threatened by the BNP by avoiding displaying the flag.

[lauraw4321]

Updates: We didn't go to Sunday School this Sunday because we had to drop a family member off at the airport. I spoke with oldest about the disaffiliation issue. She said that she's never been made to feel uncomfortable in church or youth group, but she isn't out there, so I don't know how/if/whether that would change things. She did mention that she talked with a friend who attends an ECLA church and how she likes their stance on things. For now she wants to stay, but knows that I value her and her faith more than any church. 

We're planning to try a different class next Sunday.