Where in the Trivium to start for a 10 yo with ADHD and developmental delays

[LeslieF]

My son is 9yo, but will be 10 when we start our first year of homeschooling. He's only gone to public school and its been awful to say the least. His ADHD comes with a 2-year developmental delay (emotional development, not intellectual), difficulties with arithmetic, severe aversion to writing (avoidance/hiding, meltdowns), but a sincere love for reading. He reads at a 5th - 6th grade level, BUT his reading comprehension skills are below 4th grade. He loves art / drawing (wants to be a graphic designer, a game developer, notorious graffiti artist, and cartoonist!)  As I read The Well-Trained Mind, I'm at a loss on how he fits into the trivium.  If he stayed in public school, he'd be going into 5th grade in the Fall, but academically he's not at a 5th grade level for anything. Not sure what level he's at, but I'm always given neon-colored notices a week before school breaks saying he is not meeting grade standards for applied mathematics, reading comprehension, writing / composition or social skills.  

I initially started cobbling together a Charlotte Mason-styled curriculum and schedule, but it felt disjointed and fluffy.  I want him to develop a rigorous intellect, even if we have to go at a snail's pace. As a 5th grader he'd be at the beginning of the Logic stage, but with his emotional immaturity (7 yo per his dev pediatrician) and without the foundations of the Grammar stage instruction, I don't think he'd be able to cope. Since he knows how to read, but struggles with reading comprehension when asked questions about grade-level material, it seems like the first part of the Grammar stage would be too easy. BUT I do want to fill in any gaps so he can enter the Logic stage "soon". 

This is getting long. Sorry! Any guidance would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[Meriwether]

My best advice is to meet your child where he is academically and not worry about his age at this point. He'll learn best that way and it will be less frustrating to both of you. In other words, adapt the pedagogy to the child and not the child to the pedagogy.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that you answered your own question. He’s not ready for logic stage so start with grammar stage. Btw- you can always add some logic stage type questions as he gets ready for them. 

[caffeineandbooks]

You might like to take a look at Simply Classical: A Beautiful Education for Any Child.  Cheryl Swope talks about classical education for kids who don't fit the boxes.

[EKS]

The whole grammar, logic, and rhetoric stage thing is made up.  Just use resources and teaching methods that work for your son and don't worry about "stages."

[wendyroo]

I would also take the school's assessments of his skills and challenges with a grain of salt.

 - Maybe he is weak in "applied mathematics", or maybe they were asking him to apply mathematics to situations he couldn't relate to.

 - Maybe he is weak in reading comprehension, or maybe they were asking stupid questions about what color the character's shoes were instead of giving your son the opportunity to tell them about all the things he did comprehend in his reading.

 - Maybe he is weak in composition, or maybe their expectations were wildly age-inappropriate.

 - Maybe his social skills are weak, or maybe a classroom setting just isn't where his social skills shine, and he will do better in small groups for shorter times.

I have four kids with severe ADHD and other special needs. They require a tremendous amount of accommodation - homeschooling them is a constant dance of research, experimentation, and tweaking. But, over the years, all of their traits that schools would have labeled as struggles and deficits, we have been able to turn into positives. They might not act or think or socialize like their neurotypical peers, but with time and support we've been able to help them find their own ways to thrive in the world.

[LeslieF]

18 hours ago, caffeineandbooks said:

You might like to take a look at Simply Classical: A Beautiful Education for Any Child.  Cheryl Swope talks about classical education for kids who don't fit the boxes.

Thank you for this suggestion! I just ordered it from Amazon this AM. Looking forward to the read. I've just finished the Grammar Stage section of The Well Trained Mind and now I'm very excited to see how its pedagogy (am I using this word correctly?! lol.) compares to Simply Classical.  

[LeslieF]

17 hours ago, EKS said:

The whole grammar, logic, and rhetoric stage thing is made up.  Just use resources and teaching methods that work for your son and don't worry about "stages."

A rebel in our midst! lol I love it! My inner life can be quite chaotic and so I'm attracted to well-established order.  I agree that I will need to figure out how to redesign this tower to suit my son's climbing. Its gonna be a deep dive into the ocean of pedagogical nerdery for Professor Mommy it seems. 🙂

[HomeAgain]

How do I reach him?

That was the biggest question when my oldest was young.  How do I give him the education I want to give him AND honor his whole being/needs as a person?

There was a quote that ended up being on my youngest's notebook for the longest time:

May my hands work with care,

My heart work with love,

And my mind work with attention

It was a reminder than when these three things are not happening, learning was hard.  There were so many lessons that we adapted and changed to give a classical course of study to a bouncy boy:

Activities and stories were hand in hand.  If hands were working, we were discussing or I was giving the information.

Well illustrated books were our friends

If it could be hands on, it was.  Even grammar was fully hands on, and I swear if I had learned about oral punctuation techniques, I would have done that too.

Attention periods were kept short.  Anything that required a large amount of concentration was a developed skill.  We started with 2-3 minutes, then 5, then 7....working our way up but always having a stopping point.

Routines and clear expectations were extremely necessary.

 

You begin wherever a skill needs to be taught, and slowly work up from there.  It doesn't matter what a book says a child should do at X age, if your child needs help getting there or is past it, you adjust your expectations to their needs.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The trivium is an observation of child mental development, but it isn't as neat and tidy as it seems in books.  And it can be described using different terms and by looking at different aspects of child development.  I found it helpful in teaching but more as a guide than anything.  It describes how your child interacts with ideas - starting from a very concrete understanding and then going to a more sophisticated questioning and then into a more creative synthesis of various types of ideas put together. 

But we never totally leave the former levels behind.  We will always need to understand things at a concrete level before going on to higher levels of understanding and interaction.  Your son will need the basic building blocks (or "grammar") of a subject especially if he has holes in his understanding of the subject or is just needing more time to absorb it.  But as he understands those basics he might already be able to answer some deeper questions too.  In reading this might move from concrete questions about what a character is doing to answering questions about why the character is doing it.  In math, it might mean learning the basics of computation but then applying it in word problems that deal with everyday scenarios.  The point is that we can't do the higher level thinking or problems until we have an understanding of the basics.  But stretching to try some higher level thinking now and then can be fun and even surprising. 

[wendyroo]

35 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But we never totally leave the former levels behind.  We will always need to understand things at a concrete level before going on to higher levels of understanding and interaction.

I think of learning information like a wave washing onto the beach.

It starts shallow and gentle. The first time my kids encounter a concept, I introduce it at a grammar stage level, no matter how old the child is. We talk about definitions and vocabulary. For instance, I introduce perimeter when my kids are 5 or 6 at Christmas time when I am hanging lights around a window. We discover that a linear string of lights can be bent around a rectangle, and that if we take the lights back down we can measure how long of a line it takes to go "all the way around".

Next it swells and gets deep. Once my kids are proficient at addition, they can go deep into the whys and hows of perimeter. They are ready to think logically about it to realize that rectangle perimeters can be found by adding two adjacent sides and doubling. They can be challenged to design the biggest enclosure that uses a set amount of fencing.

Finally, the wave is mostly passed (and the child is deep in learning about a new topic), and the last remnant of the first wave is spend reviewing the concept at a deep "rhetoric" level as it can be tied into new learning. Long before I introduce pi, I challenge kids to find the perimeter of a circle and defend whatever (imperfect) method they use. Because rhetoric level math isn't doing really hard math that you have been taught, but solving problems using methods you have never been taught.

So, my kids are working at all the levels at the same time in different topics. My 7 year old is still at the grammar level of writing strong, diverse sentences. She is at the logic stage of working with perimeter. And she is at the rhetoric stage of color mixing/theory, having learned the terminology, experimented with the whys and hows, and now fiercely defending her proposition that pink should be considered the third primary color and red simply a shade of pink rather than the other way around. 😄

[Jean in Newcastle]

23 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I think of learning information like a wave washing onto the beach.

It starts shallow and gentle. The first time my kids encounter a concept, I introduce it at a grammar stage level, no matter how old the child is. We talk about definitions and vocabulary. For instance, I introduce perimeter when my kids are 5 or 6 at Christmas time when I am hanging lights around a window. We discover that a linear string of lights can be bent around a rectangle, and that if we take the lights back down we can measure how long of a line it takes to go "all the way around".

Next it swells and gets deep. Once my kids are proficient at addition, they can go deep into the whys and hows of perimeter. They are ready to think logically about it to realize that rectangle perimeters can be found by adding two adjacent sides and doubling. They can be challenged to design the biggest enclosure that uses a set amount of fencing.

Finally, the wave is mostly passed (and the child is deep in learning about a new topic), and the last remnant of the first wave is spend reviewing the concept at a deep "rhetoric" level as it can be tied into new learning. Long before I introduce pi, I challenge kids to find the perimeter of a circle and defend whatever (imperfect) method they use. Because rhetoric level math isn't doing really hard math that you have been taught, but solving problems using methods you have never been taught.

So, my kids are working at all the levels at the same time in different topics. My 7 year old is still at the grammar level of writing strong, diverse sentences. She is at the logic stage of working with perimeter. And she is at the rhetoric stage of color mixing/theory, having learned the terminology, experimented with the whys and hows, and now fiercely defending her proposition that pink should be considered the third primary color and red simply a shade of pink rather than the other way around. 😄

While I agree on many levels, I will say though that in a strict sense as defined by those who came up with the trivium (at least as I understand it), some higher levels of thinking are truly developmental and can’t happen until the actual brain has matured to a point where it can move beyond more concrete levels of thinking. The easiest example is that of a baby who doesn’t yet have the capacity for object permanence. You can do all the games of peekaboo as you want, but he’s not going to truly understand that an object is still there until his brain can make that connection. 

[Storygirl]

Welcome to the WTM boards! I wanted to invite you to also post over on the Learning Challenges board with questions.

We did the opposite and put our kids in school after homeschooling, so my son with ADHD and other developmental issues, including autism and NVLD, started going to school in fifth grade. He's graduating in a few weeks. It's been a long and difficult road.

I'm going to echo what others have said -- teach the child you have, instead of trying to teach a program or philosophy, because the goal is for him to learn and grow. As you work with him in homeschooling, you will discover more things about his learning style and will be able to adapt to help him. Over time, while homeschooling my four kids, I had to change a lot about my approach, in order to meet my kids' needs, and that was hard for me, because I was invested in trying to make my philosophy work for my kids, and when it didn't, it was frustrating, and I had to reconfigure my approach. Read widely about homeschooling, of course! But commit to finding the best resources for your child, instead of the resources that someone else has chosen for generic children.

My one DS has disabilities in the areas of math and reading comprehension, so parts of your post rang bells for me. If you would like more specific advice about methods that other WTM boardies have used to help their kids with similar issues, you can read through past threads on the Learning Challenges board, and you are welcome to post questions of your own there about recommended curricula, accommodations, and what people have learned about disabilities. Another possible source of information for you can be his school records, especially if he has an IEP, as well as any testing that you've had done privately. Sometimes there are clues or information in the evaluation scores that can give you ideas about how to proceed with teaching him.

[Nm.]

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Edited April 16, 2023 by Lovinglife123

[PeterPan]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

I do want to fill in any gaps so he can enter the Logic stage "soon". 

You have this sort of backwards. You're going to stay at the level he functions at till he functions at the next level. Because he has delays (like my ds, who is described as "not more than 2 years delayed" with a gifted IQ), he may stay at that grammar stage quite a bit longer. He may become more analytical or questioning in areas he's particularly engaged in, but overall he may really need that extra time at that stage. It's not something *you* do to the dc but that the *dc* naturally develops into. My ds naturally started arguing and going into logic stage on his own this year, age 14. What you might expect at 12 happened at 14. You just hang with them and teach them where they are.

Also, the gaps he may be more about language development (narrative, metalinguistics, etc.), executive function, social thinking, etc. rather than content knowledge. WTM, Charlotte Mason, all these systems encourage you to focus on FOUNDATIONS of narrative language, etc. They aren't about content but these foundational skills. The issue is that the narrative language methods in more general ed approaches might not be *detailed* enough to deal with the challenges of kids with developmental delays, severe ADHD, etc. For those situations, you need specialized testing and specialized materials.

You're going to sort this out by trial and error. At this point some private evals, if you're open to them, might give you more information to work with him and save you some mistakes. What I would *not* buy into is thinking that any program or approach (CM vs. WTM, SL vs Timberdoodle, whatever) will be magical. It might be or he might do better with therapy materials targeted to his challenges. Same goal either way (narrative language, metalinguistics, social thinking, EF, etc.) but more detailed intervention.

Here's a free video. Long, but a good start on understanding narrative language. Also https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology

 

[PeterPan]

On 4/12/2023 at 2:46 PM, LeslieF said:

Its gonna be a deep dive into the ocean of pedagogical nerdery for Professor Mommy it seems. 🙂

It's not worth your time. Move on to evals and actual intervention. You need better methods and those aren't going to come by looking at what is done with kids who are dealing with his issues.

[PeterPan]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

He reads at a 5th - 6th grade level, BUT his reading comprehension skills are below 4th grade.

Have you had detailed private SLP evals to determine why this is going on? 

vocabulary

syntax/syntactical complexity

metalinguistics

social thinking

attention

hyperlexia (reading beyond comprehension)

Your library might have Word Callers by Cartwright. Not everything will apply, but it will start you thinking in terms of how *language* and language processing affect reading.

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

a sincere love for reading

What does he like to read? What works well? Whatever you do, do more of what is working well!!! It sounds really obvious, but I always need to remind myself of this and maybe you need to also. You want an intentional % of his day to go WELL and be strength driven. I was going over my ds' IEP with the team, and I swear it's ENTIRELY deficit driven. When I asked how a placement at their school would work to his strengths and what they would do during the day that taught to his strengths, they looked at me totally bug-eyed and suggested he could go into AP classes, snort. Not reality. Complex kids are complex, lol.

Anyways, I love hearing that your ds loves reading and was just suggesting you ponder this a minute, appreciate it, think about how to lean in on it or protect it or make space for it. It's probably the #1 thing you can do is just DO NO HARM, kwim? Do some good with some intervention and DO NO HARM along the way and they'll come out sort of whole and balanced, hopefully. It's hard. It's at least my goal.

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

notorious graffiti artist, and cartoonist!

Complete and total aside, but you realize how BIG graffiti is as a thing around the world? Everywhere you'd want to go, you can find graffiti and do graffiti tours. Seriously. Don't buy curriculum--travel!! You can use what he's into and *chain* from it to the other things you want to cover. 

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

schedule, but it felt disjointed and fluffy. 

You might need to gauge how likely he is to follow a list you give him vs. collaborating on a list together vs. dragging a mule vs. unschooling. I'm not where you should be, just saying rubber hits the road is what busts up good theories. 

On 4/10/2023 at 6:21 PM, LeslieF said:

avoidance/hiding, meltdowns

You are probably going to see some of this at home if you haven't yet. How has that been going?

Fwiw, I never think it's overkill to do OTHER things together that give you street cred, habits of behavior, behavior regulation skills, etc. that allow you to begin to *weave in* some academics. You can alternate less preferred, more preferred, use games, work toward goals, whatever you want. 

Conversely, even if the dc had a full IEP and experienced professionals and was in a really sweet spot, they could still have this issue. Interoception has been a HUGE help for us in that regard. 

Well good luck. Sounds like you're doing a great job trying to get things in order. 🙂

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

It's not worth your time. Move on to evals and actual intervention. You need better methods and those aren't going to come by looking at what is done with kids who are dealing with his issues.

Perhaps you meant to say “those aren’t going to come by looking at what is done with kids who are NOT dealing with his issues “?  

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Perhaps you meant to say “those aren’t going to come by looking at what is done with kids who are NOT dealing with his issues “?  

Yup, my brain is a little tired lately. ... I knew I had written it oddly and was too tired to check/correct.

Edited April 17, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

I could expand on it though if you want. What we don't realize is that intervention and therapy sort of merge on language/reading comprehension issues in the ps. So my ds has IEP goals that could be serviced by an SLP or an intervention specialist. However if we don't recognize those are goals that require specialized services, then we could think those are things we ought to be able to accomplish with gen ed approaches/materials, which just isn't the case. 

So by not wasting your time, I'm saying don't blame the wrong thing and waste your time thinking it's your fault or that a magic this or that will solve it. We have to call the duck a duck so we can get into the loop of intervention that is at the level that meets our kids' needs. There's this common misunderstanding or assumption that kids with developmental delays or ASD1 or this or that who are verbal "don't" have language issues, which just isn't the case. It takes highly *specialized testing* to flesh out the language challenges of high IQ verbal kids who are having unexpected difficulties. Potentially the ps doesn't even own the tests and many SLPs will not, which can delay you in getting better explanations.

So wasting your time is putting gen ed tools at something that needs specialized instruction or therapy level materials. That's it. Same goals, much more thorough approach in how to get there. Sorta like teaching with OG vs. teaching with any random reading program. Both ways kids read, both have the same goal, but OG is going to leave nothing to assumption and go into all the details and catch the things the other programs could gloss through with assumptions. This is exactly the case with narrative language, metalinguistics, reading comprehension, etc. We have tiers of intervention and therapy materials and we shouldn't dilly dally in very generic homeschool materials if our kids need to step up. We might not even realize these materials exist and we just think we're targeting the goals (which we are) and then wonder why it's such a slog and not going as well as we hoped.

[LeslieF]

19 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I could expand on it though if you want. What we don't realize is that intervention and therapy sort of merge on language/reading comprehension issues in the ps. So my ds has IEP goals that could be serviced by an SLP or an intervention specialist. However if we don't recognize those are goals that require specialized services, then we could think those are things we ought to be able to accomplish with gen ed approaches/materials, which just isn't the case. 

So by not wasting your time, I'm saying don't blame the wrong thing and waste your time thinking it's your fault or that a magic this or that will solve it. We have to call the duck a duck so we can get into the loop of intervention that is at the level that meets our kids' needs. There's this common misunderstanding or assumption that kids with developmental delays or ASD1 or this or that who are verbal "don't" have language issues, which just isn't the case. It takes highly *specialized testing* to flesh out the language challenges of high IQ verbal kids who are having unexpected difficulties. Potentially the ps doesn't even own the tests and many SLPs will not, which can delay you in getting better explanations.

So wasting your time is putting gen ed tools at something that needs specialized instruction or therapy level materials. That's it. Same goals, much more thorough approach in how to get there. Sorta like teaching with OG vs. teaching with any random reading program. Both ways kids read, both have the same goal, but OG is going to leave nothing to assumption and go into all the details and catch the things the other programs could gloss through with assumptions. This is exactly the case with narrative language, metalinguistics, reading comprehension, etc. We have tiers of intervention and therapy materials and we shouldn't dilly dally in very generic homeschool materials if our kids need to step up. We might not even realize these materials exist and we just think we're targeting the goals (which we are) and then wonder why it's such a slog and not going as well as we hoped.

Thanks so much for your in-depth responses. I'm reading everyone's input and its very helpful and encouraging. As a part of his triennial IEP review, the district did a PsychoEducational eval.  Reading through it, it seems like she is just saying that due to his inattentiveness he struggles with comprehending what he reads. With math, she just suggested we find a list that has the words associated with each operation so he can understand what is needed in a word problem as well as practice with fractions. With writing, she confirmed that he has alot of ideas but is unable to hold the words in his head long enough to get them down on paper. I'm hoping copywork and dictation in Writing with Ease will help with that. As I look over each subject to cover, it looks like ALOT. I know people say you don't have to do all of the things, but I don't see what can be skipped without issues later on. I'm hoping short sessions for each subject will keep him from being overloaded. We've got Math, History, Science, Literature, Writing, Grammar, Spelling, Vocabulary, Reading, Geography. Its not all of it every day, but it still looks like alot when I lay out  my little sticky notes lol. 

Looking forward to getting into it so we can start figuring out what works. 

IEE summary:

ADD/ADHD
Attention – Performance is within the Below Average range and a psychological processing disorder was 
identified in this area of functioning. Attention processing is the ability to maintain focus and attention to a 
task. This may include the student’s ability to selectively attend, detect relevant stimuli among irrelevant 
ones, and resist responding to distractors. There appears to be variability between scores and 
performances, meaning he exhibits difficulty performing consistently across assessment measures or 
consistently on tasks that have similar demands. Additionally, based on teacher interview, observations, 
and parent report X exhibits difficulty paying attention during academic tasks, sustaining and shifting 
attention/focus, encoding and retrieving information from working or short-term memory, ignoring 
distractions, and completing tasks in a timely manner.

FINDINGS
The results of this evaluation indicate that X exhibits a heightened alertness to environmental stimuli that 
results in limited alertness with respect to environment that is due to chronic or acute health problems, and 
adversely affects his educational performance. 

Review of records, interviews, observations and rating scales as well as examiner observations indicate that 
X can be restless and impulsive and has difficulties with sustaining attention, following through on 
instructions, planning, giving close attention to details and starting and finishing assignments without 
assistance and on-going prompting. Many Inattentive and/or hyperactive-impulsive symptoms were present 
early in life (prior to age 12 years) he has exhibited inattention and motor restless behaviors, documented 
since kindergarten. He meets this criterion.
Both parent and teacher endorsed elevated ratings on the Inattention/Hyperactivity scales and elevated or 
at-risk concerns on the Attention Problems scales.

Suggested areas of goal development include: on sustained attention, compliance with adult directions, 
He continues to require the interventions which are offered in his current IEP, 

Reading Support: As reading comprehension is an identified weakness, other modalities should be 
considered for support. Use of reading paired with playing a recording is helpful. Some apps which might 
appropriately provide this: Audible, Google Play and others. 
• Work on building grade level and above, “banks/lists” of vocabulary so that reading Is easier and 
familiar
• Use cognitive effort when reading items. Eg use a highlighter, mark in the margins, make sticky 
notes, dog-ear pages. (rather than passive reading).
o Discuss (chat) with adult or peer about the reading. Pre-read: discuss the concept of the 
reading or the background to get student “thinking and primed” for what he will read.
• Always have a reading book or item (a preferred topic about a hobby or video game, for instance, 
even if a blog) that is in use. The more leisure, enjoyed reading occurs, the easier academic 
reading becomes.

Behavior Support: have daily scores or ratings that are shared with parent. Have rewards contingent 
upon behavior rating. Continue with 1 on 1. Consider that other students with similar attention problems 
may also be disruptive and thus compounding X’s attention and hyperactivity problems.
Continuously update/add to behavior plan and reinforcement tools.

Math Support: Learn to “unpack” word problems. Identify which words and phrases signal which 
operations to use. Eg “If Ted earned $42 on Thursday and only $36 on Friday,” what was the difference in 
pay? (here, “DIFFERENCE” signals ‘use subtraction.’ Obtain a list of such signaling phrases, for x, +, -, 
division etc.
• Also Gain a head-start on calculations with fractions, eg, adding, subtracting, reducing, 
multiplying fractions. This will go a long way for middle school and beyond.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

I'm hoping copywork and dictation in Writing with Ease will help with that.

Or be torture. If you want to work on working memory, why not do it a pleasant way instead of connecting it to academics and making those hard and unpleasant too? His ability to have complex thoughts probably FAR exceeds his ability to hold his thoughts or organize them. The usual accommodations for ADHD and its impacts on writing are dictation (speech to text), mindmapping software, tech, tech, tech. Inspiration software is AMAZING and you will find it is inexpensive and straightforward to use. It can accommodate simple to complex projects.

If you need to work on narrative language, sure work on it. But just to do scads of dictation and narration with a 10, well you can but I'd be careful. Maybe learn about narrative language first by reading the link I gave you, come fully up to speed, know exactly where he is at in his narrative language development. If multiple areas are disabilities/weaknesses you can use tech to support those while working to his STRENGTHS. 

You're going to have a very brief window of goodwill from him and after that you'll be on the receiving end of frustration. That's what I'm suggesting you avoid.

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

Its not all of it every day, but it still looks like alot when I lay out  my little sticky notes

You don't have to do all those year round either. Pick 3-4 things to work on and save some things for a different semester. Seriously. Set him up for SUCCESS. What does he LIKE to do? Whatever he likes to do, do that year round. What can be rotated? At that age, I often did science in a block during the summer, art in a month in May, etc. You DO NOT need to do everything year round. Decide some things you'll do with a lick and a promise, knowing you have next year to maybe put an emphasis on them. You are misunderstanding what you're reading (WTM, state standards, whatever) if you think you're required to do everything equally well and in equal amounts. NO ONE does that.

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

Suggested areas of goal development include: on sustained attention, compliance with adult directions

Are you aware of him having compliance issues? Have you been on the receiving end of this? I mentioned this above, but you really do not want to get in a sort of adversarial position where you're making demands (do this, do that) and he's pushing back (non-compliance for whatever reason). What you WANT is both people on the same side, with you facilitating and him being aware and saying what he can do collaboratively. Imagine pulling a donkey (what you don't want) vs. walking through the park with your friend (what it may need to look like).

When you get really stressed with this list of "but we have to do this and this because WTM or the state says so and if we don't we're not doing it RIGHT" I guarantee you it's going to backfire. When I had private psych evals with my dd years ago, I went through every single subject with the psych and said how should I do this, how should I do that.. And the guy, for every single thing, said GO OUT OF THE BOX. So I will say this to you because the school psych can't say it and the school system can't do it. GO OUT OF THE BOX. 

Throw away the box, throw away all those stickies of must dos. Seriously.

Then LOOK AT YOUR KID. Ask what he's good at and what he likes. Think about what goes well in your day or in your interactions together. Then think about how you could *extend* that knowledge to make it a slightly more educational interaction that targets a goal. For instance, if he likes you reading to him, could you get some library books on topics that hit some of your academic goals? He's 10, not in college. Look at the Picture Book a Day movement and join a FB group for it and get ideas!!! That is EXACTLY how I taught my ds at that age and it totally, totally works. You can hit geography, history, social thinking, reading comprehension, narrative language, art, so many things, really well chosen picture books. Nonadversarial, just you reading him some interesting picture books while he plays legos or works on his projects. It really can be that simple!

Now you can do that with curriculum if you find something that you think he'd ENJOY, sure. A whole bunch of your goals could be hit with one carefully chosen spine. I've been reading my ds a book on the history of Great Britain to prepare for a trip and he has to summarize in 2-3 sentences the reading with the elements we're targeting with our narrative language work. Totally kicks his butt, totally challenging, and mostly stress free. Cost $5 btw. Curriculum is overrated. 

The other thing that works well with my ds is workbooks that can be done a single page at a time, which helps with attention and anxiety. If you're wanting something sequential to work through skills, a workbook (for grammar, for math) can be brilliant.

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

Have rewards contingent 
upon behavior rating.

Do rewards work with him? Kids are kind of funny with rewards and sometimes at home we end up needing to be more authentic about what motivates people. I don't know your ds, but I'm just saying that whole dynamic of what motivates them, how they communicate their frustration, etc is all going to come to a head and fall on YOU.

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

Reading Support: As reading comprehension is an identified weakness, other modalities should be 
considered for support. Use of reading paired with playing a recording is helpful. Some apps which might 
appropriately provide this: Audible, Google Play and others. 
• Work on building grade level and above, “banks/lists” of vocabulary so that reading Is easier and 
familiar
• Use cognitive effort when reading items. Eg use a highlighter, mark in the margins, make sticky 
notes, dog-ear pages. (rather than passive reading).
o Discuss (chat) with adult or peer about the reading. Pre-read: discuss the concept of the 
reading or the background to get student “thinking and primed” for what he will read.
• Always have a reading book or item (a preferred topic about a hobby or video game, for instance, 
even if a blog) that is in use. The more leisure, enjoyed reading occurs, the easier academic 
reading becomes.

These are pretty standard things to suggest. If they don't seem to be enough, then you can pursue private SLP evals.

1 hour ago, LeslieF said:

Math Support: Learn to “unpack” word problems. Identify which words and phrases signal which 
operations to use. Eg “If Ted earned $42 on Thursday and only $36 on Friday,” what was the difference in 
pay? (here, “DIFFERENCE” signals ‘use subtraction.’ Obtain a list of such signaling phrases, for x, +, -, 
division etc.
• Also Gain a head-start on calculations with fractions, eg, adding, subtracting, reducing, 
multiplying fractions. This will go a long way for middle school and beyond.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Evan Moor has some really terrific Daily Math Word Problems books (grade leveled) that have been great for my ds. They allow you to give him one page at a time with just a few things on the page ,which makes it less intimidating. I also had a workbook I found somewhere (I forget the publisher) that actually went through that language of math connection.

I'll just go out on a limb here and say that if this psych's eval is completely explaining the situation, then ADHD meds might help immensely. Sometimes these kids have more going on than was captured in the evals, because ps evals tend to be pretty brief. You might consider talking with your ped about meds just to see what would happen. I'm not saying it's the most fun journey or unstressful, but they can be exceptionally helpful for some kids. And if it doesn't go well, that's information too.

There's a lot more you'll probably end up learning about with time. Go gently and work together and you'll figure it out. 🙂

Edited April 18, 2023 by PeterPan

[prairiewindmomma]

Writing with Ease is not a great fit for kids with ADHD. BTDT, my kids with ADHD call it “Writing with Tears” as a spin-off name hinting at the popular writing program “Handwriting Without Tears” which we also used.

Honestly and sincerely, first and foremost, address the ADHD. My  two kids with it, who are now a teen and adult respectively, describe trying to do school without their meds as being deaf and trying to lipread someone across the room. It’s just a much deeper struggle to even do school let alone do it at their actual capacity. Reading, math beyond simple multiplication and division, writing—all of those things require sustained attention.  For my kids with ADHD, it really blew up for them around age 10 when schoolwork and social situations required more of them.

[Renai]

8 hours ago, LeslieF said:

With writing, she confirmed that he has alot of ideas but is unable to hold the words in his head long enough to get them down on paper. I'm hoping copywork and dictation in Writing with Ease will help with that.

 

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Or be torture. If you want to work on working memory, why not do it a pleasant way instead of connecting it to academics and making those hard and unpleasant too? His ability to have complex thoughts probably FAR exceeds his ability to hold his thoughts or organize them. The usual accommodations for ADHD and its impacts on writing are dictation (speech to text), mindmapping software, tech, tech, tech. 

 

Speech to text is your friend. He has the ideas, and will probably be able to speak them a lot faster than writing. I remember when my oldest was introduced to it in middle school. It was a game-changer. I've used it with my youngest (now 6th grade) for her endless storytelling (and the fact that she seemed allergic to a pencil),  then go back with some (not all, usually ones she wants to clean up) and work on grammar, wording, organization, the usual editing things. We also use this for nonfiction, and learning to narrate the main ideas and details.  Since she is dyslexic, Language Arts is centered on reading and spelling, but editing brings in grammar and vocabulary so we don't even have separate curriculum for that right now. Some things may need to be consolidated and used for more than one purpose, or it will become overwhelming for the both of you.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

“Writing with Tears”

Love this! 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think that it's wrong to plan.  But just be aware that kids don't always follow the plan.  Sometimes we can guide them closer to the plan but sometimes the plan just doesn't fit them as much as we desperately want it to.  If you can, see if you can get used materials to try, then it doesn't hurt so much if you have to get rid of it and go back to the drawing board.  Remember that this is your child and he's unique.  (Some kids do fit in the box that curriculum writers were writing for, but some like mine, didn't.  And they are doing just fine now that they've graduated from homeschool.  It wasn't always easy but I was able to tailor their education to their needs as well as to their interests and that helped a lot.  That's something that you can't get in a brick-and-mortar setting.  So remember that homeschooling does have some strengths that can't be found elsewhere and play to those strengths.  (There are also some weaknesses but there are ways around those.) 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Jean in Newcastle
left out a word

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Love this! 

 

The program worked well with my NT/non LD kids, especially WWS1---but as a new homeschooler, trying to figure out teaching and materials, let alone kid---we had a lot of tears before I realized the key maxim of "teach the kid" rather than "do this workbook".

[LeslieF]

Thanks everyone for the continued advice and support!  The most recent responses have confirmed things I was already working out.

I've already found a speech to text mic (that was actually the first idea I had when I learned about narration and copywork). I knew he could and actually loves to sum up what he's read.  His thinking is a bit scattered and sentences come out in fragments as conversational language often does, but I  know that will change as we work.  I know he's going to love using tech to get his thoughts out and I'm way ahead of you on not expecting him to copy EVERYTHING he's said. 

As far as consolidating things, I'm hoping to use our History, Science or Literature reading to generate opportunities to narrate, do a bit of copywork and dictation, not necessarily have a separate "Writing" class time.

Buying used resources was my go-to, first because we're not exactly living the baller life lol and I figured some things wouldn't work well for us. The Story of the World books, First Language Lessons and Writing with Ease were all used from Thriftbooks or Amazon marketplace sellers. Its been a huge life-saver. I get the idea of not relying on curriculum, but I think I feel more confident knowing that I have resources to study and use as a guide as we figure things out.

MEDS are not an issue. I was reluctant in preschool when the developmental testing began, but once we entered elementary school I knew it was needed. It took a bit and dosages have had to be tweaked along the way, but he's been on meds for a while. Without them, he never would have been able to handle even a few minutes in a classroom. And yes, he can be very non-compliant lol. The eval notes were not a shock on that point. Expectations have to be made very clear and often repeated to keep him on track. The combination of boredom, being 9, and impulsivity that comes with ADHD is a messy sight to behold and a difficult situation to manage. The distractions in the classroom and the negative vibes from getting in trouble with the teacher everyday is a big part of why we decided to homeschool. 

Working together is not new as we always do reading (he reads his preferred book, then I do a read aloud of something a bit more challenging), Math games, art projects, coding activities, trips to the library, theatre (we saw Annie this year and plan to see Othello this Spring) during winter, spring and summer breaks. He thrives in a structured environment with a predictable schedule even if it involves non-preferred activities. We've had our blow ups and meltdowns and have learned to back off and / or loop back to try again when we feel more up to it.  My main concern was making sure I found the appropriate starting point for his studies now that I'm the one facilitating it all.  I didn't want to start too far back and it not be challenging enough, nor did I want to push work that was created for a fifth grader if it was too soon for him.  Now that I've begun to read through the teacher's guides, I'm starting to form in my mind how to integrate the skills practice with content subjects.  Its coming together slowly but surely.  Reading everyone's responses and being able to think out loud on these threads have helped immensely.  I'm confident that we will eventually settle into a groove.

[prairiewindmomma]

I am so relieved to hear you aren't opposed to meds or accepting a ADHD diagnosis.

FWIW, text to speech has been helpful here. So has the free browser add-on grammarly.

IMO, one of the key principles of classical education is thinking well.  Good writing comes from good thinking. IMO, public schools push writing on paper a bit early developmentally because they need to as a classroom control measure. For my ADHD kids, around ages 10-12, I use the socratic method of teaching a lot more than I use formal writing curricula.  The discussion questions in the SOTW activity guide are a great jumping off point. You can also look at the Well-Trained Mind guide for some additional ideas of how to make it come together.  We often used the sample material from WWE and then narrated without ever putting pencil to paper. I did require speaking in complete sentences, and for a time I would scribe the response. Text to speech is more helpful when a child can narrate properly in complete sentences. Otherwise, you are likely to end up with a lot of sentence fragments.

 

[LeslieF]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am so relieved to hear you aren't opposed to meds or accepting a ADHD diagnosis.

FWIW, text to speech has been helpful here. So has the free browser add-on grammarly.

IMO, one of the key principles of classical education is thinking well.  Good writing comes from good thinking. IMO, public schools push writing on paper a bit early developmentally because they need to as a classroom control measure. For my ADHD kids, around ages 10-12, I use the socratic method of teaching a lot more than I use formal writing curricula.  The discussion questions in the SOTW activity guide are a great jumping off point. You can also look at the Well-Trained Mind guide for some additional ideas of how to make it come together.  We often used the sample material from WWE and then narrated without ever putting pencil to paper. I did require speaking in complete sentences, and for a time I would scribe the response. Text to speech is more helpful when a child can narrate properly in complete sentences. Otherwise, you are likely to end up with a lot of sentence fragments.

 

Oh for suuuure, gurl! I was the one who insisted on an evaluation when we were in preschool, hanging from the rafters, jumping from the tables, and pulling down everything from the walls and shelves in the classroom!  I'm a big fan of testing and diagnosis, then massive reading up on the subject and grilling the doctors on all possible treatments. My 2 seconds long reservation with stimulants was due to how little my Boo Boo was and I knew eating would be an issue with uppers.  That said, you gotta do what you gotta do and I fought to have a behavioral aide assigned to him to make sure he stopped spinning long enough to eat. That was what feels like an eternity ago. Eating is not a problem now!  

Its funny you mention the Socratic method. I just found a used copy of Teaching the Classics which lays out how to do literary analysis using the Socratic method for all levels of reading.  I look forward to seeing what it's about as reading is a passion for him and I want to be able to gently encourage discussion in a developmentally-appropriate way.  

THANK YOU for reminding me about Grammarly. I was mulling over the challenge of cleaning up his narrations when we start using the text to speech so that we aren't reinforcing incorrect grammar when we use his words for copy work or dictation. That's gonna be a huge help.  

Your statement that good writing comes from good thinking echoes something I just read in the Writing With Ease instructor's manual.  SWB showed how sentence diagramming can reveal fuzzy thinking.  We probably have a ways to go before we get to diagramming, but hearing you say that made me feel like I'm on the right track.  There's a lot of shade being thrown at poor WWE, so not sure how it will work out, but you've gotta start somewhere with something!

Edited April 18, 2023 by LeslieF

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

I knew he could and actually loves to sum up what he's read.  His thinking is a bit scattered and sentences come out in fragments as conversational language often does, but I  know that will change as we work. 

Or you could get an SLP eval by someone who focuses on expressive language. It's really a lot to expect Mom to be the SLP, teacher, cheerleader, cookie maker, boo boo kisser, laundry washer, and more. It's OK TO ASK FOR HELP!!! ASK for help. Beg for help. Spit on anybody who tells you you should do it all. If a relative, spouse, grandparent, church person, friend, someone is standing in your way saying you're less than for asking for help, walk right around them and ASK FOR HELP.

What you just described should have gotten you SLP evals and SLP goals in the IEP. It's a problem of the system that they can run fast food tests that don't show the disability, tests that are KNOWN to have sensitivity issues (ie. they miss kids with higher IQs who have language challenges). It's not fair to him or you to put this burden on you to expect you to be an SLP or to expect him to somehow shape up and respond to methods that are NOT MEANT for kids in his situation.

If you bring in an SLP and get thorough evals, you get someone working alongside you. You get someone doing the heavylifting so it's not ONLY YOU. Let them do the ugly stuff. Seriously. 

I use 3 SLPs with my ds right now and would add a 4th if my ds had the behavioral regulation to tolerate it. I'm just suggesting you add *1*. 😁 

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

he's been on meds for a while. Without them, he never would have been able to handle even a few minutes in a classroom.

Good job!!!

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

The distractions in the classroom and the negative vibes from getting in trouble with the teacher everyday is a big part of why we decided to homeschool. 

I'm just messing with your brain here, but what would happen if we flipped this and said the non-compliance starts with the language issues? What you described for his language warrants evals. What happens when he gets in a classroom and is having language comprehension and language processing issues? You get behaviors and you get labeled as being non-compliant.

I would so start with language evals. Deep, like 6-8 hours. With someone who owns every expressive language test you've never heard of. None of this CELF, one test for two hours jazz. Ask them upfront what they might run after you tell them what is happening. Get somebody who BREATHES expressive language and will dig in.

I told you my ds does hours and hours of SLP sessions a week. It took a while to get him paired with those people and get it built up to that. I suggest starting with one person and seeing if you can fund it at twice a week. Or buy SLP materials yourself to use with him. (I gave you a link to excellent stuff you can learn for free.) Work with the SLP to learn what you can do at home with him. You're on the right track, but work together, kwim? There are SLPs who specialize in reading who will sometimes take this on too. You just have to see what you can find. It takes time and frequency to build relationship, build rapport, and get them productive together.

To get that compliance up, you're going to have to be very HONEST with him about what is going on and what he needs. Or honest with yourself. He doesn't have a curriculum deficit. Homeschooling is not magical but RELATIONAL. When you're honest together and you see him as he is and you facilitate and bring him the tools he needs to succeed, it comes together. Sometimes it's a little firm, but not a lot. Firm backfires. Collaborative, facilitating, figuring out what the skill gap is and filling in that skill piece, that is what has worked here. My ds is somewhere between feral and mule frankly, but he can be a lot of fun to work with when he's fully engaged. The win is when he knows he feels well and has choices and is ready to sit down and work.

Interoception work has been the single biggest shift in our house. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/

She has a curriculum you can buy and do with him. You can't screw it up. It's not dependent on language levels and will have printables for almost any level he needs. HIGHLY recommend.

I'd suggest you do this, do the SOTW (which will be awesome), and do some playful math together. Do all that daily through the summer, only that. On Fridays make cookies and cook together. And every day as soon as the work is done go to the park or swim or do something outside that makes him feel good and motivates him. This brief plan will give you a *foundation* with some work habits, routines, positive experiences, and get that interoception/self-advocacy up.

Then in the fall you can see where things are at and what you've learned about him and add in a little more. Starting in the summer will help you keep it *low key*. If you don't want to do any academics, then just do the interoception. But a little bit is fine, just like 30-40 minutes a day, kwim? Don't do more than that. Don't try to start with narration and handwriting and all this other jazz. 

The other thing you're going to run into is the SLPs are going to want to do social. Keep hunting for a person who's very into expressive language and try to get them to work on it. Social is the low hanging fruit and I SWEAR every single SLP on the planet wants to work on it. Makes me made enough to spit. Expressive language matters. Interoception matters. Social is one more thing you do, not a replacement for those. It's why we use multiple SLPs because it lets me pigeon them and say yes you're really honestly working on this. None of this jack of all trades, I integrate everything junk. There is no servicing EVERYTHING by one SLP in 30 minutes a week and they know it. It takes lots of people, lots of perspectives, lots of hours. It's why you want to hire people, so he'll get a variety of ways of hitting the same thing. You'll work on narration and syntax one way and they'll work on it another and it will start to gel. We're better TOGETHER, when we ask for help.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

Working together is not new as we always do reading (he reads his preferred book, then I do a read aloud of something a bit more challenging), Math games, art projects, coding activities, trips to the library, theatre (we saw Annie this year and plan to see Othello this Spring) during winter, spring and summer breaks. He thrives in a structured environment with a predictable schedule even if it involves non-preferred activities. We've had our blow ups and meltdowns and have learned to back off and / or loop back to try again when we feel more up to it. 

I LOVE this!!! So, so good. You are doing SO awesome here. This is exactly where you want to be.

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

I'm starting to form in my mind how to integrate the skills practice with content subjects. 

You might think about whether working on an area of disability (syntax, narrative language, whatever) while at the same time working on something pleasurable (content) is what you want to do. It's ironic that the SLPs are told to do this in sessions while at the same time their own textbooks caution them AGAINST working on multiple things at once. 

So there is the idea of load and how many things are new/novel. If you're going to work on an area of disability, you might try to approach it with something that is sort of interesting but not too high value to you, something that you don't care if he decides to hate it.

If it's important to you that he LIKE SOTW, that might not be the tool to use to work on narrative language.

It's important to have enjoyable parts in your day, so sometimes you actually need to turn off therapy mom and just be fun. Or you HIRE the SLP to be the ugly one and let her work on narrative language and take the fall for that. That way you get to me nice mom who reads history and mummifies chickens.

One thing I've gotten REALLY PISSED about over the years is the tendency for the teaching mom in our house to be the one who does all the HARD STUFF and the non-teaching parent to come in and be the oh yeah and with me everything is FUN AND EASY AND JOYOUS. And after a while that's going to skew your relationship. I'm competent to be therapy mom but that doens't mean I want that to be the majority of our relationship. I hire it out more and more now because my time to be his MOM is short. And I'm exceptionally competent, with a background in linguistics and tons of training. I just can't be the bad guy all the time and the only one doing hard stuff or it gets really imbalanced.

Sermon over. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

There's a lot of shade being thrown at poor WWE,

Hey, almost everybody here has learned the hard way. 🤣 The WTM and classical education brought narrative language to the forefront of homeschooling, but the therapy/intervention world has since caught up. You can now get an SLP to run narrative language testing and they have multiple tools available. They even have norms for % grammatical utterances in the narratives. 

https://asha.figshare.com/articles/journal_contribution/Psychometric_properties_of_PGU_Guo_et_al_2019_/9630590?file=17387345

So you can start teaching him using traditional materials that are fast paced, not meant for intervention, and that have a pattern of frustrating kids with ADHD and disabilities. Or you could get an SLP eval for expressive language, narrative language, and ask them to tell you what you don't know.

If you try something that is too hard with a kid who gets easily frustrated, it's not going to go well. 

The more information you start with how about where he functions, where his language is, and what the holes and issues are, the better. Our ps DIDN'T EVEN OWN the tests to do the testing needed to show my ds' language disabilities!!! Do you hear me shouting? Do you know how AGGRAVATING this is?? It took so many tries for me finally to find the tests, beg the SLPs to buy them, beg them to run it. And then the ps SLP was like OH MY LANDS THAT WAS AMAZING DATA.

It's not like they're wanting to fail to identify, but they can't identify it without the tools. 

So you can go in blind and give it a whirl and hope for the best, or you can run more testing and start with information. I'm in the evals/labs camp every day of the week now because I've btdt too much. Some of the people here have met my ds, and he was pretty feral when he was young, much like you describe. 

Did you ever get retained reflexes integrated? If you didn't, you should do that. There's usually a language bump once you do that and it could get you to a better place. It takes a couple months of concerted work to get them identified and do the exercises to integrate them, but it calmed my ds from feral to someone you could work with. 

[PeterPan]

Haha, we're giving you a hard time. You're seeing him on the ground and you know what you're dealing with. It's very clear that you will be responsive and back off and reassess if things go awry. 😁

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, LeslieF said:

I look forward to seeing what it's about as reading is a passion for him and I want to be able to gently encourage discussion in a developmentally-appropriate way.  

We have a concept we talk about with learning to read before reading to learn. Language is sort of the same way, where we learn to use language before we use language to learn. Not exactly, but I'm just saying it's going to be a slog, if he has language issues, to expect him to use language over and over to process and interact. I'd be more likely to stick to *1* question only or to wait for him to try to discuss it with you. We NOW have those discussions because my DS IS READY. He comes to me and NEEDS to talk about things and is ready. 

You don't make things happen by pushing for them. Some of these books make people look like they were so enlightened and really sometimes it's more like the kid blossoms in an enriched environment and you're there faciliting and having the level of interaction they're ready to have.

[PeterPan]

Just absorb things, because eventually we're going to be gone and it's going to be *you* telling others how it went for you, what you learned. Then we'll just be your memories and cloud of inspiration. 🙂

[LeslieF]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

You don't make things happen by pushing for them. Some of these books make people look like they were so enlightened and really sometimes it's more like the kid blossoms in an enriched environment and you're there faciliting and having the level of interaction they're ready to have.

Oo. I like this. I'm definitely a go-getter. Its tough to pull back and let him develop. I have to fight the urge to get him there.  HOWEVER I really want to fill our atmosphere with opportunities for enrichment: fine art books, a variety of literature, a variety of musical styles, art supplies and musical instruments. He asked to learn the recorder so I got him a sweet wooden one. He practices nightly and even signed himself up for the school talent show. We were both nervous but I got him a Beethoven costume and he performed Ode to Joy. I was SO PROUD and it was his idea. I still can't believe it! lol. 

I'm rambling now but I heard what you said about SLP (which I had to google!) and I've reached out to our developmental pediatrician to see how to get an evaluation. We have Kaiser so we are kind of at the mercy of whatever they have. Out-of-pocket therapy will probably be too expensive, but I'm going back through your responses and pulling the links you've provided to see what I can grab and glean.  I started watching the youtube video you sent me yesterday while I was folding clothes and realized halfway through the towels that I would need to re-watch with a notepad.  Those ladies were going deep. 🙂 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

He asked to learn the recorder so I got him a sweet wooden one. He practices nightly and even signed himself up for the school talent show. We were both nervous but I got him a Beethoven costume and he performed Ode to Joy. I was SO PROUD and it was his idea. I still can't believe it! lol. 

He is SO adorable, oh my!!!

3 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

HOWEVER I really want to fill our atmosphere with opportunities for enrichment: fine art books, a variety of literature, a variety of musical styles, art supplies and musical instruments.

hub.lexile.com You can find books on anything at exactly his level. Take a book that already works for him, pop it in to get the lexile, then search for other books at that lexile. Using the lexile search engine to look amazing is my super power. 🤣

4 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

Kaiser

spit. We've had others here deal with Kaiser so I feel for you.

5 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

I started watching the youtube video you sent me yesterday while I was folding clothes and realized halfway through the towels that I would need to re-watch with a notepad.  Those ladies were going deep. 🙂

You're making my heart happy!! You're about to learn a TON. It will change how you look at him and interact with him and let you see him where he is. You're going to see why a curriculum like WWE is just a tool and be able to determine for yourself what to target. You will be able to use ANYTHING to work with him by the time you're done. I just picked up at the library a cute book of some kind of "weird animal stories from..." You don't have to kill his favorite topic, don't have to belabor it, and don't have to muddle him up by confounding his syntactical and narrative language levels. WWE tries to build working memory using syntactically complex material while claiming their building narrative but actually teaching summarizing. Did you get that? LOL

It's why you want the training in that video, so you can see why WWE might be fine for some kids and murder for others. You'll be able to separate those goals out and know exactly what syntactical level of material you want to use and know whether you're working on summarizing or a particular developmental stage of narration and whether you want to target working memory with that or want to do it with GAMES or something FUN!!!

It's like saying that because some kids can learn with a CVC/word family reading program that NO KID should need the more detailed instruction of OG/proper dyslexia instruction. Specialized instruction reduces assumptions, fills in holes, and allows us to know exactly what we're targeting and why. Some super bright kids have super funky holes. The SLPs for instance will assume that if vocabulary is intact that everything else with language is probably fine. For everyone but our kids, this is a fine assumption. But what happens when you have these crazy gifted/bright kids who can MEMORIZE things? They end up with funky holes.

And the way you find those funky holes and do really targeted intervention is by realizing every nuance. (developmental stages of narrative language development, whether you're narrating or summarizing, what the syntactical complexity is, what you're targeting when you work on that narration) He's probably going to have some amazing strengths and nuanced weaknesses you're trying to find. Blunt tools that make assumptions won't do for this. If the models in WWE fit, him, USE them!! Just use them smarter now with what you're learning. And if the models don't fit, use something else. Easy peasy. 🙂

[PeterPan]

51 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

enrichment:

Travel. Maybe not just yet because you need to get reflexes integrated and get him feeling a bit better. (As he feels better, the compliance will improve.) But yeah, travel. Every time we travel my ds comes back a new person, with new friends, new confidence, new skills. It has been revolutionary for him and shows us more holes to work on.

This is the kid who had meltdowns over a hotel tub not being his tub, ASD2. I never dreamed we'd get to do these amazing things. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, LeslieF said:

I'm definitely a go-getter

Or you're very intelligent and get bored. One child, even someone with challenges, is not going to take all the mental energy you have to give. Take up a hobby so you can have some detachment and stay balanced. Start grad school, work on a foreign language, volunteer, learn a skill, anything. As long as it's complex that it scratches YOUR intellectual needs so you don't drive your kid crazy.

I'm currently studying italian, relearning photography via youtube, and volunteering a few hours a week. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by PeterPan

[LeslieF]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Or you're very intelligent and get bored. One child, even someone with challenges, is not going to take all the mental energy you have to give. Take up a hobby so you can have some detachment and stay balanced. Start grad school, work on a foreign language, volunteer, learn a skill, anything. As long as it's complex that it scratches YOUR intellectual needs so you don't drive your kid crazy.

HAHAHAAAA! I'm no Will Hunting, but I definitely get bored. I worked full-time my entire adult life until last November. After decades of project management, the "stay at home" life is driving me crazy which is in turn driving the rest of the house crazy! lol. Man, you got me there.  I recently picked up a partial collection of Great Books (Brittanica) from a craigslist listing and am starting to read those. Its a bucket list item and i thought it would help with my own personal development.  Now its time to find people to discuss them with because NO ONE in my world is interested. lol. The old dead yt guys have fallen out of favor in my neck of the woods, but the bougie in me can't stay away. Thank God for the internet!