JAWM ...derailed careers etc

[chiguirre]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:22 PM, Quill said:

Not that I think any young people would listen to me or ask for my advice on the subject, but if they did, I would recommend either never putting a career on hold to raise kids, or at least keep up with your certifications/industry knowledge and rejoin within 7 years or so. I would not recommend SAHM and homeschooling for two-three decades to…really, anyone. The level of disadvantage it *potentially* creates is not ideal. I sometimes wish someone had explained that to me better all those years ago instead of constantly blowing sunshine up my butt about how rewarding it was to be a SAHM and homeschooling mom. I was deep in Dr. Laura land, constantly congratulating myself for being “my kids’ mom”, without ever fully understanding that dr Laura’s gig was unicorny enough to be quite hypocritical. 
 

 

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree whole heartedly! The "you can have it all" messaging is damaging. The pie in the sky, it will all work out in the end, messaging is a disservice. The Leave it Beaver ideas have to go because reality does not match them. So many women have been crushed, especially those divorced by the primary bread winner of the family, by being sold this snake oil. The number of women know who are facing a horrific future of barely an adequate shelter, barely enough food on the table if not full on food insecurity, facing homelessness in their elder years, is astronomical because they gave up their career building opportunities for the SAHM gig only to be divorced in the mid-forties, early fifties by husbands moving on to greener pastures, and taking all their earning power, the family health insurance, you name it with them. This is exponentially worse now because the house gets sold and split 50/50, but since she had low earning potential, she cannot afford housing in the current market, but he takes his high income with him, his high credit rating, and his half of the proceeds making it possible for him to buy another home, or to rent a decent abode in a decent neighborhood. Even if there are minors and he is paying child support, he is paying a lot less than even half of what it takes for his children to be cared for which means in essence his income goes up, and hers goes down dramatically.

I'm not bitter about the loss of my career because I was not a Dr. Laura acolyte. I knew what I was giving up, but there was literally no other choice because finding childcare for kids on the spectrum is basically impossible. Nobody wants to deal with a kid who is constantly tantrumming and hurting their caregiver. There no are residential options for small kids, even if they injure you. You, the parent and almost always the mom, are stuck.

I'll be a full time caregiver for another 15 or 20 years between caring for my sons (who are much, much more mellow now but whose program and work schedules wouldn't allow me to commit to even a 4 hour shift so volunteering is not going to happen) and maybe grandchildren (so that my dd doesn't face this conundrum.) I'll have put in a full 40 years of caregiving and won't have my own social security to show for it. I'll have my dh's but really I've worked long, hard, thankless hours and I'm just a dependent.

Going into the SAHM gig I warned dh that if he cheated on me or divorced me, I would refuse to take custody of the kids and he would have to deal with the goat rodeo of our home life. Frankly, dh was actively afraid of being left alone with the kids (this was not some weird, flaky thing, they were really that difficult) so this was a very serious deterrent to leaving me high and dry. Most women won't have to deal with this level of exhaustion but the credible threat that the man will have to deal with sick days, finding childcare, getting up in the middle of the night, helping with homework, buying all the supplies for the costume or diorama that's due tomorrow, etc. should be used more frequently by women imho to avoid getting screwed in a divorce. 

[Clarita]

16 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Most women won't have to deal with this level of exhaustion but the credible threat that the man will have to deal with sick days, finding childcare, getting up in the middle of the night, helping with homework, buying all the supplies for the costume or diorama that's due tomorrow, etc. should be used more frequently by women imho to avoid getting screwed in a divorce. 

My dad never sought a divorce from my mom because of the fear she would no longer handle things on the home front for him. Kind of weird he was so afraid of this when he only had one kid and by all accounts an easy one. My mom would absolutely give him full custody; I would be the one fighting for my mom to have some custody of me. 

[Faith-manor]

The threat of having to deal with that which they do not want to deal is ineffective on a lot of men. They have to care so deeply for their kids above themselves that they want to replicate what mom does. Sadly, most men who cheat, have a mid life crisis and chase fantasies, etc. do not care for their kids more than themselves or they would have controlled themselves to begin with. They won't make costumes, care two hoots about dioramas, will not oversee homework, will not answer their phones when the school calls, will stick their kids on the bus to school sick, and will feed them junk food. I watched my own brother refuse to stop chasing tail, then get 50/50 custody when she finally couldn't take it anymore and filed for divorce. He promptly sat on his a$$ and did exactly nothing for his kids. Nothing. They ate chocolate donuts for breakfast followed by a can of Mountain Dew, he did less than nothing when it came to school, could not even be bothered to provide properly sized clothing, and he refused to answer his phone at work if it was the school calling. My nephews were feral in his care. So many times my mother ended up taking care of sick grandkids whom the school released to her even though they didn't have permission to do so just to get kids with strep and stuff out of there. I have seen so many men do this. I known quite a few who just ran off, out of state, and refused to see their kids again so they couldn't be bothered with parenting, and all the while being s.o.b's about paying child support which was a pathetically low amount leaving their kids in poverty.

People who do not want to parent, do not step up to the plate and actually parent just because there was a divorce. Parents who truly care about their kids' well being do not bust up their marriages unless the mom is not a good person, and he actively wants to single parent. I do know a man who did that. His wife was abusive, and he got his ducks in a row so he could prove she was unfit, won sole custody, and worked his butt off as a single parent to provide, parent, and raise responsible, well adjusted young adults.

[scholastica]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Aged care here is a shambles. Understaffed, underpaid, over-medicated, abuse and neglect rife. 

Similar problems in a lot of places here. 

[EmilyGF]

So, I went back to work part time in January for a huge variety of reasons. I joked to the IT guy that everyone was COVID quitting, and I was COVID quitting the SAHM gig. 

When I was deciding whether to take the job or not, one of DH's reasons for me to take it was to "be a good example for our daughters." I feel like I had very rigid thinking as a young person, but I think many young people do. My mom had worked in daycare for a long time and had always talked about how horrible it was. Most of the women I knew growing up who worked full time were divorced or getting divorced. I didn't really have any examples of successful women in successful marriages. 

One thing I'm doing proactively is having my kids explore more careers purposefully. As a woman who was exceptionally good at math, I felt it was almost my duty to be an engineer. Frankly, I hated it, but I did make good money straight out of college. OTOH, it isn't a good job for taking years off. My goal is for my kids to have jobs that actually fit them somewhat so that they aren't excited to quit and to choose careers with more flexibility, or at least to be aware of the flexibility or lack thereof going in.

Looking back, though, it is hard to say what I'd give up in order to have kept working. I could have put off kids a few years or had a nanny, which probably would have been the best possibility. However, DH wouldn't have the career he has now if we hadn't moved all the time early on. And my job now is totally enabled by DH's job being stable and flexible. 

Who knows?

Emily

[elegantlion]

10 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

 

One thing I'm doing proactively is having my kids explore more careers purposefully. As a woman who was exceptionally good at math, I felt it was almost my duty to be an engineer. Frankly, I hated it, but I did make good money straight out of college. OTOH, it isn't a good job for taking years off. My goal is for my kids to have jobs that actually fit them somewhat so that they aren't excited to quit and to choose careers with more flexibility, or at least to be aware of the flexibility or lack thereof going in.

 

This is one thing that bothers me about my own upbringing. I cannot for the life of me ever remember my parents talking to me about having a career. The one career I wanted, they could not help me attain, no one was helping me- and I needed guidance. My mom became an adult in the 50s, so her idea of vanity, livelihood, and family all revolved around having a hard-working, responsible spouse. Thankfully, my dad was just those things; they had a great relationship. She never pinpointed that her own contributions and strengths were just as valuable as the working spouse. She worked to put herself through high school and left her small town for the "big city" at a young age. She had a career - more labeled as just a job - before she quit working when she got married. 

As a teen, I think my mindset was more about finding the right man to create a team- found a few wrong ones ;p. I did not have the belief that I could thrive in my own career. I did have some work successes before I quit to be a SAHM, but it was always a job taken by happenstance, not a real choice of career. Older me would certainly have some different advice for younger me. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

One thing I'm doing proactively is having my kids explore more careers purposefully. As a woman who was exceptionally good at math, I felt it was almost my duty to be an engineer. Frankly, I hated it, but I did make good money straight out of college. OTOH, it isn't a good job for taking years off. My goal is for my kids to have jobs that actually fit them somewhat so that they aren't excited to quit and to choose careers with more flexibility, or at least to be aware of the flexibility or lack thereof going in.

It is really difficult to predict a child's career path because so many factors go into it. (ETA it is impossible to predict how the workplace and labor market are shifting. For example, nobody could have anticipated the huge growth in work-at-home opportunities and flexibility that grew out of the pandemic. )
My DD who is equally talented at humanities and math chose to major both in physics and an in interdisciplinary humanities degree. Only during her junior summer internship at a national lab did she realize that she did not want to be a researcher. She ended up working in career services for a major university and then did a masters program in computer science while working, and is now a software developer. Each of her degrees would have given her a variety of careers to choose from, and the external factors of location, work place culture, and pandemic shaped what was desirable and viable. We would never have expected her to love coding as much as she does. The career office job has given her a resume and additional skill set that the degrees alone did not.

My conclusion from my parenting experience is that the only thing that is never wasted and that nobody can take away from you is education. It gives you so much more flexibility and options, even after parenting breaks. If we want to life-proof our daughters, have them get as broad an education as possible. That opens avenues we cannot predict.

Edited November 2, 2022 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

Emily, there is a big tech employee shortage right now, and there are programs for reentry for women with STEM backgrounds who have been off for years and years raising children.  I have a friend with a math background who got an internship like that at a FAANG firm and is now employed full time.  She had been out of the work force for at least 15-20 years.

https://www.womenbacktowork.org/

[vonfirmath]

"The cat once known as Roland"

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

,,,However, DH wouldn't have the career he has now if we hadn't moved all the time early on. And my job now is totally enabled by DH's job being stable and flexible. 

Corporate moves for my dh’s company is what really killed my career. I could have gone back when the kids hit elementary school aside from the fact that each move took me farther away from the professional network I had built. No way to successfully stay in on a part time basis during early childhood years without those contacts. 

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

My conclusion from my parenting experience is that the only thing that is never wasted and that nobody can take away from you is education. It gives you so much more flexibility and options, even after parenting breaks. If we want to life-proof our daughters, have them get as broad an education as possible. That opens avenues we cannot predict.

We always were told get the strictest, best education you can, and I don't regret that.

But... I have so many friends who feel they choose the wrong major. Right now, I'm thinking of a majorly extroverted friend who studied chemistry and was just dying when she was in lab. She ended up getting a masters in education and is an awesome high school chemistry teacher. 

DD16 had been talking about studying chemistry but is the most extroverted person I know. I didn't want her to be miserable like my friend and looking at career tests has given her visions of directions she could take that let her do some chemistry without having to spend years alone behind the lab bench. 

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

But... I have so many friends who feel they choose the wrong major. Right now, I'm thinking of a majorly extroverted friend who studied chemistry and was just dying when she was in lab. She ended up getting a masters in education and is an awesome high school chemistry teacher. 

DD16 had been talking about studying chemistry but is the most extroverted person I know. I didn't want her to be miserable like my friend and looking at career tests has given her visions of directions she could take that let her do some chemistry without having to spend years alone behind the lab bench. 

Agree. But major does not completely decide career - with most majors, it is possible to craft a career path that takes these traits into account.
I am that person, too. For years I wondered why I never had the same passion for physics research as my DH, and I chalked it up to being not the same level of genius - until I started teaching, found that much more fulfilling, and learned about personality types and discovered that with my extreme extroversion, I needed a job here I was surrounded by people. 

This is another thing we made sure our kids were educated about: their own personalities, and what features they needed to look for in their careers. (It still puzzles me that my extremely extroverted DD who was miserable in her solitary lab seems to be thriving and happy as a work-from-home software developer whose main interactions are online).

[wintermom]

Women really need to be thoughtful and realistic about planning out their lives, and start young - high school at least. I also think it's important for girls to receive good advice from other women who have a broad range of experiences, both in workplaces, and with families as well as single (widowed or divorced). 

My mom's mom was an uneducated, new immigrant, young wife and mother of 3 when her husband was killed in a motor vehicle collision. Through her experiences learning to cope on her own, she drilled into my mother a few excellent pieces of advice which my mother took and passed on to me:

- Get as much education and work experience completed as you can while you are young, single and no children. Plan to be financially independent from the start of adulthood.

- When you do do get married and/or have a family, don't give up all your means of being financially independent. You may need it in the future.

- Try to build a trusted support structure of family and/or friends around you. They will be valuable in good times and bad.

Even if all of these haven't occurred, having a few of them in place will make things easier in life, when challenges arise.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

21 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Agree. But major does not completely decide career - with most majors, it is possible to craft a career path that takes these traits into account.

Not holding myself up as an exemplar, because if I had it to do over I would likely choose a different educational path. However, my degree is in English, with emphasis in creative writing. The entire time I was in school, everyone I spoke to assumed I would wind up doing something related to publishing or, most likely, teach. And, although I flirted with both of those things over the years, for most of my pre-kids career I was a technical writer, which led me to teach myself how to do some programming. 

Now several years post-homeschooling, I'm an instructional design manager developing online course materials focusing mostly on workplace safety.  So, yeah, kind of loosely related to teaching, but -- although I rely on skills I learned earning that English degree every day -- not at all what anyone would have anticipated I would wind up doing, largely because this specific job didn't exist when I was choosing a major.

[saw]

13 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The threat of having to deal with that which they do not want to deal is ineffective on a lot of men. They have to care so deeply for their kids above themselves that they want to replicate what mom does. Sadly, most men who cheat, have a mid life crisis and chase fantasies, etc. do not care for their kids more than themselves or they would have controlled themselves to begin with. They won't make costumes, care two hoots about dioramas, will not oversee homework, will not answer their phones when the school calls, will stick their kids on the bus to school sick, and will feed them junk food. I watched my own brother refuse to stop chasing tail, then get 50/50 custody when she finally couldn't take it anymore and filed for divorce. He promptly sat on his a$$ and did exactly nothing for his kids. Nothing. They ate chocolate donuts for breakfast followed by a can of Mountain Dew, he did less than nothing when it came to school, could not even be bothered to provide properly sized clothing, and he refused to answer his phone at work if it was the school calling. My nephews were feral in his care. So many times my mother ended up taking care of sick grandkids whom the school released to her even though they didn't have permission to do so just to get kids with strep and stuff out of there.

 

When I tried to get xh to be more involved with the kids (like attend concerts, help with schooling, pay attention to them), he just didn't. Finally he said to me that we just had different parenting styles, and that his was more laissez faire and therefore equally valid. Not so. I still remember years ago when I was married and had to go away for a night for one child's event and intended to leave the other two (around age 12) with their dad. They were so upset at the prospect that I called a friend to take them for the weekend instead. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, saw said:

When I tried to get xh to be more involved with the kids (like attend concerts, help with schooling, pay attention to them), he just didn't. Finally he said to me that we just had different parenting styles, and that his was more laissez faire and therefore equally valid. Not so. I still remember years ago when I was married and had to go away for a night for one child's event and intended to leave the other two (around age 12) with their dad. They were so upset at the prospect that I called a friend to take them for the weekend instead. 

I am so sorry. And yes, lazy was his parenting style. Not acceptable. But, there is just no way to make a lazy parent step up. Sigh.

[EmilyGF]

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Emily, there is a big tech employee shortage right now, and there are programs for reentry for women with STEM backgrounds who have been off for years and years raising children.  I have a friend with a math background who got an internship like that at a FAANG firm and is now employed full time.  She had been out of the work force for at least 15-20 years.

https://www.womenbacktowork.org/

Thanks for the link! I think my plan at this point is to keep on homeschooling until DS10 goes to high school; so 3.5 more years. Then he and dd-now-6 will likely go to B&M private school. In the meantime, I am working on project management and data analysis experience. I think I want to go into educational project management within EdTech with an expertise in data analysis. The part-time job I have right now sets me up very well for that while allowing me to homeschool for a few more years. I may take some MBA classes part-time starting next year through my work and focus on the math-y side of things.

Emily

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Thanks for the link! I think my plan at this point is to keep on homeschooling until DS10 goes to high school; so 3.5 more years. Then he and dd-now-6 will likely go to B&M private school. In the meantime, I am working on project management and data analysis experience. I think I want to go into educational project management within EdTech with an expertise in data analysis. The part-time job I have right now sets me up very well for that while allowing me to homeschool for a few more years. I may take some MBA classes part-time starting next year through my work and focus on the math-y side of things.

Emily

That sounds like a solid plan to prep to pivot in any number of directions.

I would just suggest that you stay open to doing project management in tech rather than in education.  It seems very possible that it would pay considerably better, and both career paths can have good benefits packages.  Education jobs tend to pay into a pension system that is heavily loaded toward longevity points, while tech vesting schedules are often just 3-5 years, so if you don't have time for a super long career you might do a lot better financially in tech.