Overuse of “Narcissist”

[heartlikealion]

19 minutes ago, Slache said:

@pitterpatter Many people are physically, emotionally and sexually abused, but only a rare few act like that. It's a reason, not an excuse.

 

1/3. I wouldn’t care that a rare few. https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html

[pitterpatter]

Yes, I know. I just meant that I can understand why someone who endured years of childhood abuse themselves might be inclined to act out in certain ways. (Particularly when no one rescued or helped them.) Combine that with comorbidities, and well, I do have empathy for them. I can understand while not condoning.

14 minutes ago, Slache said:

@pitterpatter Many people are physically, emotionally and sexually abused, but only a rare few act like that. It's a reason, not an excuse.

 

[heartlikealion]

38 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Gardenmom5 and others have spoken many truths. I don't have much to add that isn't reiterating what they've already said. All I know is that I am currently undergoing emotional abuse from three different people (and three different personalities). One from a relationship that wasn't even originally mine but is greatly impacting another person in my life that I love. It has spilled over onto me. While all three relationships are distinct and separate, they're also kind of oddly connected in my life. None of them are overtly focused on me (or, at least, I'm not the sole object of or root reason for the abuse), but the abuse is such that it has completely taken over and destroyed my life. Over the past month, I have finally allowed myself to call it all abuse. Because it is. It's really messed up stuff. Being able to armchair diagnose and understand that these relationships are not normal, has been freeing. I am not out of any of it, but I'm feeling empowered at the moment, which is the difference between being any to cope and not. I don't like playing games. So, I will always lose against these people. I don't like having to analyze every freaking interaction I have with these people. It is impossible for me to stay even a half-step ahead, so I spend a lot of time in damage control. But understanding that I'm being played, helps. (What's funny/not so funny is that I already knew I was being played in one of these relationships and thought I had it under control. I thought I was ahead. Nope, I was royally getting my butted kicked.)

What kind of makes it all worse is that all three of these people were either sexually, physically, and/or emotionally abused themselves. I can understand why they are who they are. And, I feel empathy for them. (I'm finding that it is impossible for me to hate anyone.) But, I'm also trying to mitigate what's happening to me. Ultimately, I hope the one relationship disappears, the second improves with therapy (because I very much want and need this person in my life), and the third, well that one isn't going away or improving until he/she passes away.

I don't even know why I'm writing this. I think that maybe if you're reading this thread and wondering whether you are in an emotionally abusive relationship, that the alarm bells have probably been ringing for quite a while. I want you to realize that it's okay to research and armchair diagnose. Emotional abuse is real, and it's destructive. If you are finding it difficult to cope, there's a reason for it. Knowledge truly is power.

Thank you for sharing. 
If anyone reading this thread wants some extra resources feel free to PM me. Mostly book recommendations but I went through 3 online courses for related issues. 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I just don’t get why you stay there. What an ass. But maybe you don’t directly deal with him many hours of the day. And I dunno I guess I’d be talking to payroll about my wages rather than dealing with him if at all possible. 

Some people are more experienced/willing to handle a jerk than others.  It does take understanding how to push back.
It took dh ten years to understand I wasn't exaggerating about my grandmother, because she couldn't manipulate him and he was completely unaffected by her mind games.  He found her dreadfully boring, and she couldn't manipulate him - so they basically avoided each other.

Part of that was from jobs he'd been in where he had to deal with a lot of higher ups who were "jerks" - and he'd learned how to handle them.

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

But she works in a lawyer’s office so I’m thinking maybe this firm has a couple employees for this. I don’t know. I have worked at both kinds of jobs.  

with the advent of online law libraries - it has made it much easier for solo practices.  We've a friend who quit his large firm because he could share space with other lawyers who also wanted to be independent.  He sent a letter to all of his clients that he was leaving, and dropping his rates.  They all went with him, since he was now "cheaper" - and he took home more money than when he was in "large firm".

2 hours ago, Quill said:

  But now we’ve come full circle from my OP, because I believe most people who are jerks are just jerks and are not NPD, even if they do have certain traits like that. My boss does not have NPD, but he has and displays some narcissist traits from time to time. And so, early on, I realized how I responded to him was going to matter. I can see that, the same traits that make a person a successful sole practitioner of law are traits that can be used manipulatively on others. 

 

Here’s another example Re: my boss. My boss will not pay for a cleaning service. He is too cheap to do it. But he made quite a bit of hay about assuming I would clean. (You know, cause I’m a “girl”…🧐) He just dropped hints about it constantly. I knew he was trying to manipulate me into becoming the office cleaning lady, but, other than keeping my specific areas presentable, I do not clean. And I 100% never clean the mens room. I don’t go in there. 
 

Eventually, he mostly stopped dropping hints to try to get me to be the cleaning lady. But he does act huffy about it sometimes when he deins to finally run a duster or vacuum through the office. 😄

Dh found higher ups/ceo's etc. tend to be "jerks".  it's the mindset of the competition of those jobs to succeed.  

I wouldn't even listen to the whines about him having to clean - he can always hire someone to do it.

1dd was head of tech at a small company for a few years.  She had HUGE messes to clean up when she got there as (at least) the two previous tech heads were incompetent.  One mess was people had left - and the company was STILL paying for their cell phones. the landline system also went down a minimum of once a week.  (just fixing the phone situation saved about $70K a year).  She sent out emails to all the people who were SUPPOSED to have cell phones (mostly c-levels, but a few others - and they only made up part of the list of active phone numbers).  There was no record of what number belonged to whom - so she wanted to know their phone numbers to get it recorded and make sure those numbers had uninterrupted service. . . . The CEO couldn't be bothered to respond to her.  So - his phone got turned off.🤣 (it was turned back on within an hour of him letting her know his phone number.)  He didn't ignore her again when she sent out such queries.  (she had the landline system fixed and working properly within three months.  It was a super mess.)

But if someone is in that position - they have to be able to push back.  She had many "discussions" about what could be done within their budget and what they wanted that was NOT remotely within their budget. . . . . (and the company had been taken over by germans - and they wanted to do things the way they did in Germany, which weren't even legal here. . . .)

[gardenmom5]

There are business tactics that most people never see, and yeah - you can push back.  Dh started in banking.  A local (then dominant) bank wanted more money from their bond traders.  Their bond traders said "the clients are ours". - and as a group, picked up their client lists and walked across the street to a different bank.  The first bank was then OUT of the bond trading business forever (it eventually got bought er - bailed - out by a bigger bank).

[sweet2ndchance]

30 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

with the advent of online law libraries - it has made it much easier for solo practices.

Yup. This. I've dealt with court systems and lawyers in 3 different states for over 10 years now. Solo practices and partnerships are becoming much more the norm. They make far more money when they do not have to hire extra employees to do payroll or HR. Or in Quill's case, a cleaning lady lol.

[heartlikealion]

The lawyers I had were a mix. One was at his own firm then joined another. The first had her own place but clearly needed to hire more people or an answering service. Lol I couldn’t tell you if any of them had an HR person. One office that blended kept their separate secretaries but I’d have to go through the main line and request to be transferred. Once they merged they had to reserve the conference room they used to have full freedom to. I really couldn’t tell what was better or worse. I imagined it was done to save on rent, but have no idea. By the time I took the GAL a check he’d merged with a group as well. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Yup. This. I've dealt with court systems and lawyers in 3 different states for over 10 years now. Solo practices and partnerships are becoming much more the norm. They make far more money when they do not have to hire extra employees to do payroll or HR. Or in Quill's case, a cleaning lady lol.

or pay a percentage of their earnings to senior partners. . . . 

[heartlikealion]

27 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

or pay a percentage of their earnings to senior partners. . . . 

When I dropped off my check the secretary (?) and paralegal (?) said something to each other about having to calculate what part of the check the lawyer got and what part the firm got. That’s why I’m not totally sure if they are winning or losing by merging lol I’m just glad I’m not a lawyer. The money doesn’t seem worth it. 

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

When I dropped off my check the secretary (?) and paralegal (?) said something to each other about having to calculate what part of the check the lawyer got and what part the firm got. That’s why I’m not totally sure if they are winning or losing by merging lol I’m just glad I’m not a lawyer. The money doesn’t seem worth it. 

It depends how it is set up.  My friend shared office space and overhead bills - they did NOT share their own profits.

 

[Melissa Louise]

This comment is more for Quill, I guess, as the thread owner. 

I've been thinking about why I believe the over-inflation of terms like 'NPD' or 'Cluster B's' in the culture at large ( not directed at any individual poster in this thread) is bothersome, and perhaps even harmful, and it really isn't so much to do with ethics of diagnosis. 

I think it's because, ultimately, focusing on the harming other in any fixed way, is time not spent focusing on the only thing we can actually heal - ourselves.

It's honestly irrelevant to.me what diagnoses my two most hurtful, harmful people would have if they came to the attention of a psychiatrist.

That's actually their business, and really, nothing to do with me. What's to do with me is the effect of their behaviour on my own personality and psyche, and how I deal with/heal that.

A label (which is all a diagnosis is, really) doesn't really have much, if anything, to add to that process.

Because I am an individual, and the action on me of person with X diagnosis is likely to be unique to me, my history, my context. 

Diagnoses are valuable only so far as they guide treatment - and the only diagnoses or case formulations we ever need to worry about our our own, of those of a minor or other person in our care. 

 

[Carrie12345]

11 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

This comment is more for Quill, I guess, as the thread owner. 

I've been thinking about why I believe the over-inflation of terms like 'NPD' or 'Cluster B's' in the culture at large ( not directed at any individual poster in this thread) is bothersome, and perhaps even harmful, and it really isn't so much to do with ethics of diagnosis. 

I think it's because, ultimately, focusing on the harming other in any fixed way, is time not spent focusing on the only thing we can actually heal - ourselves.

It's honestly irrelevant to.me what diagnoses my two most hurtful, harmful people would have if they came to the attention of a psychiatrist.

That's actually their business, and really, nothing to do with me. What's to do with me is the effect of their behaviour on my own personality and psyche, and how I deal with/heal that.

A label (which is all a diagnosis is, really) doesn't really have much, if anything, to add to that process.

Because I am an individual, and the action on me of person with X diagnosis is likely to be unique to me, my history, my context. 

Diagnoses are valuable only so far as they guide treatment - and the only diagnoses or case formulations we ever need to worry about our our own, of those of a minor or other person in our care. 

 

That’s a perfectly legit viewpoint.

Not to toss around the buzzword “empath” 😉 , but as a sort of empath “fixer”, the unofficial “validation” of a condition/disorder/what have you was extremely helpful to me for transitioning from questioning what I could have, should have, would have done to help to accepting that there was/is nothing I can do to help. And that’s what “allowed” me to focus on myself and heal.

Before that, in multiple cases, I did sometimes take a step away, but I always gave 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes more chances in case someone had turned over a new leaf or had just one request that could possibly make a world of difference.  I needed “evidence” to convince myself that that would simply never be true. Getting burned over and over apparently wasn’t enough for me.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

This comment is more for Quill, I guess, as the thread owner. 

I've been thinking about why I believe the over-inflation of terms like 'NPD' or 'Cluster B's' in the culture at large ( not directed at any individual poster in this thread) is bothersome, and perhaps even harmful, and it really isn't so much to do with ethics of diagnosis. 

I think it's because, ultimately, focusing on the harming other in any fixed way, is time not spent focusing on the only thing we can actually heal - ourselves.

It's honestly irrelevant to.me what diagnoses my two most hurtful, harmful people would have if they came to the attention of a psychiatrist.

That's actually their business, and really, nothing to do with me. What's to do with me is the effect of their behaviour on my own personality and psyche, and how I deal with/heal that.

A label (which is all a diagnosis is, really) doesn't really have much, if anything, to add to that process.

Because I am an individual, and the action on me of person with X diagnosis is likely to be unique to me, my history, my context. 

Diagnoses are valuable only so far as they guide treatment - and the only diagnoses or case formulations we ever need to worry about our our own, of those of a minor or other person in our care. 

 

I'd worked on healing for years before I learned about NPD/cluster-bs. I'd made progress - but there were things that simply did not make sense and I was stuck - until I learned about them.  It was puzzle pieces falling into place. I found being able to identify WHY she did what she did to be very helpful in my healing.  Part of letting go of the hurt she caused me -what understanding her, being able to see the whole person as it were.  the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of her. 

To understand that she wasn't going to change, not even a little bit. that everything was, and always would be - about her.  No matter how much it *wasn't* about her. . .   that no matter how much we might have wanted her to be a nurturing support - she was *incapable* of being that. It gave me understanding I needed that it wasn't my fault she rejected me.

[pitterpatter]

Yes! I'm not sure anyone can truly understand unless they've walked a similar path. Imagine being trapped in a psychological thriller. You know those moments where you're brain just can wrap itself around what just happened? That's what life can be like when you're interacting with people with these personality disorders. Over time, the effects of the mind games build up and you either start to think you're crazy or you mentally break trying to resist it all (kind of the same thing, really, I guess). I knew my entire life that something was off about this person, but finally allowing myself to accept and name the disorder, it's like seeing the world for the first time.

For what it's worth, my other parent had an official diagnosis of either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia (doctors were undecided), most likely induced by lesions on the brain caused by a devastating neurological/physical disease. This parent did some obvious "crazy" things, but I never felt abused by this parent. I never felt scared of or was harmed by this parent in any way. (Honestly, looking back, my NPD parent did some horrible, hurtful things to this parent. Makes me wonder whether the true stressor for this parent's mental illness maybe actually wasn't the physical disease after all.)

PS - My grandmother often told me that I should keep a journal of all the stuff I went through with my bipolar/schizophrenic parent. That it would make a good book one day. To help other kids/people in similar situations. She was right in a sense, but boy did she get the wrong parent.

 

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'd worked on healing for years before I learned about NPD/cluster-bs. I'd made progress - but there were things that simply did not make sense and I was stuck - until I learned about them.  It was puzzle pieces falling into place. I found being able to identify WHY she did what she did to be very helpful in my healing.  Part of letting go of the hurt she caused me -what understanding her, being able to see the whole person as it were.  the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of her. 

To understand that she wasn't going to change, not even a little bit. that everything was, and always would be - about her.  No matter how much it *wasn't* about her. . .   that no matter how much we might have wanted her to be a nurturing support - she was *incapable* of being that. It gave me understanding I needed that it wasn't my fault she rejected me.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by pitterpatter

[heartlikealion]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Diagnoses are valuable only so far as they guide treatment - and the only diagnoses or case formulations we ever need to worry about our our own, of those of a minor or other person in our care. 

I respectfully disagree. That’s like saying I don’t need to know what animal (pet for the sake of this analogy) I have except for the vet’s interactions with it. No, I also benefit. Maybe I won’t have the same expectations with the cat vs dog. You know? Otherwise I might spend years wondering why my cat won’t play fetch. And to distance myself we can say I pet sit so I interact with it sometimes but don’t live with it. It still matters to me as I interact with it fairly regularly.

I agree with others that for some of us it matters. It helps us move forward. As a Catholic I used to feel great guilt over even considering divorce. Oh I just need to try harder. No. I was hitting myself against a wall. 

I wish I could remember the guy’s name but there’s a video link where this guy talks about how abuse victims are often given unhelpful advice in counseling and from church pastors by being told to do homework when they’ve already been doing 90% of the work. Then they leave the session and are faced with more homework and their abuser might not do anything. 

That’s how I often feel. Like people are saying don’t forget your role in this. And I want to scream I’ve been working on myself — he hasn’t. Like I should make a sign that says “no sh!t, Sherlock” to hold up every time. 

Anyway yes it greatly matters to many of us. If you don’t like the animal analogy then everyone in class got a puzzle but ours didn’t come with the right pieces and well-meaning bystanders are saying you just need to give it time. Nope. 

[Indigo Blue]

Are these just labels? Do psychiatric/psychological diagnoses differ from other medical diagnoses such as arthritis? Are they more subjective? Does this mean they are meaningless and irrelevant? Genuine questions and food for thought. 

[heartlikealion]

7 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Are these just labels? Do psychiatric/psychological diagnoses differ from other medical diagnoses such as arthritis? Are they more subjective? Does this mean they are meaningless and irrelevant? Genuine questions and food for thought. 

I do think they are more subjective. The Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case seemed to have differing views. I do believe I had OCD and the psychiatrist said no after what? Just a conversation and maybe an intake form? 

When I had my son tested for ADHD the psychologist said he’d let me decide if the “H” was part of it. So he left with a diagnosis of ADHD inattentive type. Most of his hyper activeness has waned. 

I don’t think they are meaningless. I just think several are more prone to being inaccurate. However, even with physical issues you can be misdiagnosed. 

[heartlikealion]

To clarify, they don’t use the term “ADD” officially anymore. So they say “inattentive type.”

[Indigo Blue]

16 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

My grandmother often told me that I should keep a journal of all the stuff I went through with my bipolar/schizophrenic parent. That it would make a good book one day. To help other kids/people in similar situations.

A book like this would be interesting and helpful. I wish I could transfer a lifetime of experiences to the pages of a book. Not for sympathy but just to show what it’s like. Lots of books written by professionals give examples and snippets from their patients. It would be interesting to have a whole chapter book that accurately conveys all the insidiousness, in contrast to the more overt abuse that we can see. I would have so much to say about how toxicity can permeate an entire family, affecting the lives of children, then choice of spouses, then grandchildren, etc. A poisoned well that keeps repeating and spreading. 

[gardenmom5]

23 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I respectfully disagree. That’s like saying I don’t need to know what animal (pet for the sake of this analogy) I have except for the vet’s interactions with it. No, I also benefit. Maybe I won’t have the same expectations with the cat vs dog. You know? Otherwise I might spend years wondering why my cat won’t play fetch. And to distance myself we can say I pet sit so I interact with it sometimes but don’t live with it. It still matters to me as I interact with it fairly regularly.

I agree with others that for some of us it matters. It helps us move forward. As a Catholic I used to feel great guilt over even considering divorce. Oh I just need to try harder. No. I was hitting myself against a wall. 

I wish I could remember the guy’s name but there’s a video link where this guy talks about how abuse victims are often given unhelpful advice in counseling and from church pastors by being told to do homework when they’ve already been doing 90% of the work. Then they leave the session and are faced with more homework and their abuser might not do anything. 

That’s how I often feel. Like people are saying don’t forget your role in this. And I want to scream I’ve been working on myself — he hasn’t. Like I should make a sign that says “no sh!t, Sherlock” to hold up every time. 

Anyway yes it greatly matters to many of us. If you don’t like the animal analogy then everyone in class got a puzzle but ours didn’t come with the right pieces and well-meaning bystanders are saying you just need to give it time. Nope. 

Or even a Jack Russell Terrier vs a hound.  They're both dogs - right???   But only a super naive person would have the same expectations for each.   

And yeah - the people who don't understand, but are all like "you need to stop being judgmental" . . . . it feels like victim blaming when we've had to struggle to even come to understand we're NOT crazy!  And anyone who has never said "I'm not crazy" while bursting into tears of relief -  . . . . . . doesn't understand.

18 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Are these just labels? Do psychiatric/psychological diagnoses differ from other medical diagnoses such as arthritis? Are they more subjective? Does this mean they are meaningless and irrelevant? Genuine questions and food for thought. 

Anything that doesn't have standard lab tests - is subjective.  And there are a host of physical disorders that are diagnosed by eliminating things by lab testing to narrow down the possibilities.  Then there is the disagreement among professionals as to what those lines are . . . .   
 
 Dr Ramani posted this today - about the difference between narcissism and NPD

5 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

To clarify, they don’t use the term “ADD” officially anymore. So they say “inattentive type.”

They do use ADHD - inattentive type is ONE subtype.  there are three subtypes.

inattentive

hyperative/impulsive

combined

[Indigo Blue]

6 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

And yeah - the people who don't understand, but are all like "you need to stop being judgmental" . . . . it feels like victim blaming when we've had to struggle to even come to understand we're NOT crazy! 

Yes. 

[pitterpatter]

Yes, I wish I would have kept a journal now. I've forgotten (or blocked) so much. But, I would have to have had adult perspective to have understood what I needed to record then. And, I didn't understand about the NPD parent. I thought that parent was just overprotective, hot tempered, and liked to yell and make fun of people a lot. I know I didn't like how this parent made me feel at the time, but I didn't understand what was actually going on.

My sibling was greatly affected too. And, my NPD parent has destroyed his/her live-in partner too. (My other parent died years ago.) This parent's abuse toward them is way more obvious than my own. Other family members have noticed these past several years. Their abuse is more like instant gratification while mine is a slow burn. (I don't stand for the overt crap. But, when I try to protect the other two, I get whammied. Then, it's a painful path back to status quo.)

8 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

A book like this would be interesting and helpful. I wish I could transfer a lifetime of experiences to the pages of a book. Not for sympathy but just to show what it’s like. Lots of books written by professionals give examples and snippets from their patients. It would be interesting to have a whole chapter book that accurately conveys all the insidiousness, in contrast to the more overt abuse that we can see. I would have so much to say about how toxicity can permeate an entire family, affecting the lives of children, then choice of spouses, then grandchildren, etc. A poisoned well that keeps repeating and spreading. 

[heartlikealion]

19 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Or even a Jack Russell Terrier vs a hound.  They're both dogs - right???   But only a super naive person would have the same expectations for each.   

And yeah - the people who don't understand, but are all like "you need to stop being judgmental" . . . . it feels like victim blaming when we've had to struggle to even come to understand we're NOT crazy!  And anyone who has never said "I'm not crazy" while bursting into tears of relief -  . . . . . . doesn't understand.

Anything that doesn't have standard lab tests - is subjective.  And there are a host of physical disorders that are diagnosed by eliminating things by lab testing to narrow down the possibilities.  Then there is the disagreement among professionals as to what those lines are . . . .   
 
 Dr Ramani posted this today - about the difference between narcissism and NPD

They do use ADHD - inattentive type is ONE subtype.  there are three subtypes.

inattentive

hyperative/impulsive

combined

My bad. I just meant he left with the label “ADHD inattentive type” as opposed to “ADD.” 

[Carrie12345]

53 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Are these just labels? Do psychiatric/psychological diagnoses differ from other medical diagnoses such as arthritis? Are they more subjective? Does this mean they are meaningless and irrelevant? Genuine questions and food for thought. 

Many are very subjective. Like I said, I have a relative who has one doctor say bi-polar and another doctor say borderline personality. For *my purposes, does it truly matter? No. But professional opinion validating my almost lifetime of experience helps me to know I haven’t imagined the toxicity, and that it’s on me to avoid it.

Despite a strong family history, I am feeling like ASD is acting like a big catch all for many things these days. That’s partly why one of my kids hasn’t had an eval; we just work on and adapt to individual behaviors or issues, same as the diagnosed kid.
And the fact that the term ASD gives little to no information about the individual diagnosed with ASD. To be accommodating or therapeutic, one must know WHICH traits present, how they present, and how the individual manages best.

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

Despite a strong family history, I am feeling like ASD is acting like a big catch all for many things these days. That’s partly why one of my kids hasn’t had an eval; we just work on and adapt to individual behaviors or issues, same as the diagnosed kid.
And the fact that the term ASD gives little to no information about the individual diagnosed with ASD. To be accommodating or therapeutic, one must know WHICH traits present, how they present, and how the individual manages best.

There are researchers who work with ASD who think it is actually a host of related disorders, not just one with different degrees of affect.

i.e. There are more than twenty different genes found to be related - but (just like any other gene linked health issue) - that doesn't mean someone with one or more genes will be affected.

1ds and 1dd got formal diagnosis because it opened up support options that were closed without a formal diagnosis.

[heartlikealion]

I have a healthy (or maybe unhealthy) level of skepticism with doctors that don't specialize in something but will give their opinion based on what they know to be true. I had a nurse practitioner tell us that ds didn't have ADHD. I had a child psychologist say there's no way ds could have APD because of how he scored on some bit on a language test. Both were wrong according to professionals in those areas... though ds still thinks he's been misdiagnosed. And I guess I'll never really know. I really wanted to pursue ASD testing, but there was so much pushback from my son and ex that I let it go. Sometimes labels are good for various reasons and other times people let them affect their self esteem and see no benefits in them. "Oh great, now I have this label" or "will I have to now disclose this?" etc. 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Are these just labels? Do psychiatric/psychological diagnoses differ from other medical diagnoses such as arthritis? Are they more subjective? Does this mean they are meaningless and irrelevant? Genuine questions and food for thought. 

Definitely more subjective and I think more misdiagnoses. People get misdiagnosed with medical conditions (or more often missed) as well, but there are many medical conditions that have objective tests. I have an extended family member who has had a revolving list of mental health diagnoses such that I have no idea at this point how they are actually classified (to be fair, this particular person has had a fair number of medical diagnoses like that as well. To the point I’ve often wondered if the big one being missed by professionals is hypochondria. I don’t think it’s malingering with this particular person though.)

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

There are researchers who work with ASD who think it is actually a host of related disorders, not just one with different degrees of affect.

i.e. There are more than twenty different genes found to be related - but (just like any other gene linked health issue) - that doesn't mean someone with one or more genes will be affected.

1ds and 1dd got formal diagnosis because it opened up support options that were closed without a formal diagnosis.

Makes sense.
I had a very hard time trying to get ds support for EF issues for long term projects, despite a formal, thorough, expensive, hospital-based child development institute.  (And then the school’s own evals.) Had he required more time on tests, his school would have provided that. Sigh.
Otoh, my niece gets accommodations for extreme sensory issues, which is awesome. Ds didn’t need that.

Same dx. Very different support needs.

[Guest]

@Melissa Louise I agree with every word of your post. 
 

@gardenmom5 I enjoyed that video just fine but to me, it amounts to the same thing. Whether someone means “diagnosable with NPD” or *merely* displays narcissistic behaviors is not meaningful to me; it’s the propensity I see of people to call any regular asshole a “narcissist” that bugs me. In the video, she lists a whole bunch of characteristics - lack of empathy, envy, need for adulation, etc. - and that a person needs to have all or most of these consistently to be called a narcissist. That is why I say this label is being thrown around; I don’t think *everybody* who acts like a jerk is a Narcissist. In fact, I think *most* are not, which goes back to my assertion that true narcissism is pretty rare. 
 

One woman, in telling me her STBX is a narcissist gave the example that, here she is, trying to work out childcare for their babies and her dh comes home *WITH A PUPPY!* Yup! He really got a puppy with no regard for the fact that she’s losing her mind over Childcare. 
 

Is this jerky behavior? Absolutely! Is it narcissism? No. 
 

Im also personally dealing with someone who constantly calls her STBX a narcissist, while she herself has several definitely narcissistic traits. I don’t know the STBX, so I have no idea how much narcissism he displays on a regular basis, but I have had many interactions with her and I have distinctly noticed several things she does herself that fit that personality type. 
 

I don’t know…for me, the most important thing for me to really get through my head was that I was not responsible for *anyone else’s* happiness/behavior/choices. (I mean adults mostly; minor children may be something of a different story.) I did not need to prevent someone from being angry or disappointed or unhappy or sad or lonely or anything. It was very freeing when I learned I could choose what I was going to do and if it made someone unhappy/mad/whatever then…oh well. You own your feelings and I’ll own mine. That was the thing that has made my life exponentially better. 

[pitterpatter]

Actually, the puppy thing could definitely be an instance of abuse. You'd have to know their life story and how it fits into the bigger picture. Think how a puppy restricts your time and freedom. How much stress it can cause, especially when the victim likes animals and wants it to have a good life. Had this happen with a kitten a couple of months ago with a loved one who is being abused. It has been a HUGE stressor in that person's life. I'm not going to explain, but it keeps that person from seeing his/her child and other people that person loves.

[sweet2ndchance]

My ex brought home a puppy when I was already overwhelmed with kids. More than once. It would not even be on my radar to call that abuse, much less narcissism. Immature? Selfish? An asshole move? Absolutely. But it is not narcissism to be a jerk to your significant other. Now he also made himself the victim when I said no to the puppy that he expected me to take care of when I didn't want the responsibility. That's where we start treading toward emotional and verbal abuse territory but from Quill's point of view, it sounds like this woman thought the incident was proof enough.

Other than making the lawyer aware of the kind of behavior to expect, I'm not even sure what these women that come into Quill's office hope to achieve with the allegations of narcissism. It was told to me over and over again that unless I had a firm case of abuse toward the children, it made no difference how he treated me. Now that was 10 years ago in a state that I later learned is a "father's rights" state. Maybe things have changed but I doubt it.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Actually, the puppy thing could definitely be an instance of abuse. You'd have to know their life story and how it fits into the bigger picture. Think how a puppy restricts your time and freedom. How much stress it can cause, especially when the victim likes animals and wants it to have a good life. Had this happen with a kitten a couple of months ago with a loved one who is being abused. It has been a HUGE stressor in that person's life. I'm not going to explain, but it keeps that person from seeing his/her child and other people that person loves.

As I said: jerky behavior. I would be furious with dh if he brought home a puppy right now. And he would hear my anger about it for sure because I think committing to an animal is a huge responsibility; it is up there with having or adopting a child IMO. So yes, I would be *furious*! But! If that is the best example someone can give, it seems flimsy. I usually trust people to lead with their top three instances of intolerable behavior and this does not make it to “narcissist” to me.*

*With the caveat that I am playing odds; I could be wrong; she could be embarrassed and so didn’t give a good example - I could be wrong. I recognize that. I’m just making an observation based on what I see and typically expect. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

@Melissa Louise I agree with every word of your post. 
 

@gardenmom5 I enjoyed that video just fine but to me, it amounts to the same thing. Whether someone means “diagnosable with NPD” or *merely* displays narcissistic behaviors is not meaningful to me; it’s the propensity I see of people to call any regular asshole a “narcissist” that bugs me. In the video, she lists a whole bunch of characteristics - lack of empathy, envy, need for adulation, etc. - and that a person needs to have all or most of these consistently to be called a narcissist. That is why I say this label is being thrown around; I don’t think *everybody* who acts like a jerk is a Narcissist. In fact, I think *most* are not, which goes back to my assertion that true narcissism is pretty rare. 
 

One woman, in telling me her STBX is a narcissist gave the example that, here she is, trying to work out childcare for their babies and her dh comes home *WITH A PUPPY!* Yup! He really got a puppy with no regard for the fact that she’s losing her mind over Childcare. 
 

Is this jerky behavior? Absolutely! Is it narcissism? No. 
 

Im also personally dealing with someone who constantly calls her STBX a narcissist, while she herself has several definitely narcissistic traits. I don’t know the STBX, so I have no idea how much narcissism he displays on a regular basis, but I have had many interactions with her and I have distinctly noticed several things she does herself that fit that personality type. 
 

I don’t know…for me, the most important thing for me to really get through my head was that I was not responsible for *anyone else’s* happiness/behavior/choices. (I mean adults mostly; minor children may be something of a different story.) I did not need to prevent someone from being angry or disappointed or unhappy or sad or lonely or anything. It was very freeing when I learned I could choose what I was going to do and if it made someone unhappy/mad/whatever then…oh well. You own your feelings and I’ll own mine. That was the thing that has made my life exponentially better. 

Yes and yes,  the puppy thing…..maybe it was not even jerky behavior…maybe just clueless. Maybe he was trying to do something sweet for his kids.    Who knows.  But I sure would not diagnose anyone over that story.  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

 

Other than making the lawyer aware of the kind of behavior to expect, I'm not even sure what these women that come into Quill's office hope to achieve with the allegations of narcissism. It was told to me over and over again that unless I had a firm case of abuse toward the children, it made no difference how he treated me. Now that was 10 years ago in a state that I later learned is a "father's rights" state. Maybe things have changed but I doubt it.

I think this is a key point.  No one really cares if your stbXH is a jerk or NPD. So why are they bringing it up? Sympathy? Justification for divorcing? Diversion from their own poor behavior?

Who knows?   
 

If you (collective you) have been raised up by an abusive parent or if you are living with an abusive mate or you have a young adult who is abusing you with cutting you off…..sure I get the need for explanation of bad behavior and to help yourself see you aren’t the problem.  But more important than a diagnosis is learning how to not be treated badly. I am not minimizing how difficult that is for some depending on the level of abuse, years of abuse etc.  

However, calling every abusive person, or jerk person NPD is not helpful. 

[pitterpatter]

It could just be an incident that really bothered her. On her mind a lot. It's been several months since the cat came into my loved one's life. That person broke down all over again about it just last week. Like serious mental anguish. The whole thing kept me up for two nights. It was a very well played form of abuse. I don't think the abuser has NPD, though. A different Cluster B.

Not saying it couldn't be just as you said, though. You just never truly know.

ETA - If the puppy story is part of an ongoing discussion of a particular lady from higher up in the thread, I missed it. I haven't been keeping up with the lawyer conversation. I missed some posts and never went back to catch up. So, just disregard me, if I'm totally missing something. 😁

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

As I said: jerky behavior. I would be furious with dh if he brought home a puppy right now. And he would hear my anger about it for sure because I think committing to an animal is a huge responsibility; it is up there with having or adopting a child IMO. So yes, I would be *furious*! But! If that is the best example someone can give, it seems flimsy. I usually trust people to lead with their top three instances of intolerable behavior and this does not make it to “narcissist” to me.*

*With the caveat that I am playing odds; I could be wrong; she could be embarrassed and so didn’t give a good example - I could be wrong. I recognize that. I’m just making an observation based on what I see and typically expect. 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by pitterpatter

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

ne woman, in telling me her STBX is a narcissist gave the example that, here she is, trying to work out childcare for their babies and her dh comes home *WITH A PUPPY!* Yup! He really got a puppy with no regard for the fact that she’s losing her mind over Childcare. 

I’m not going to try to pretend that this example “proves” NPD, because it doesn’t. But “good” narcs often leave few concrete examples to give without making someone look crazy and over reactive to others.  
It’s *possible that this is an example she finds most relatable.

Most of my relative’s behaviors were seemingly low level for years. To detail them would (and did) make me seem ridiculous. She didn’t suddenly become NPD when she started going for the throat; she was just trying to take back the control she lost when supply from her lower key manipulation was shut off. 

[Melissa Louise]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think this is a key point.  No one really cares if your stbXH is a jerk or NPD. So why are they bringing it up? Sympathy? Justification for divorcing? Diversion from their own poor behavior?

Who knows?   
 

If you (collective you) have been raised up by an abusive parent or if you are living with an abusive mate or you have a young adult who is abusing you with cutting you off…..sure I get the need for explanation of bad behavior and to help yourself see you aren’t the problem.  But more important than a diagnosis is learning how to not be treated badly. I am not minimizing how difficult that is for some depending on the level of abuse, years of abuse etc.  

However, calling every abusive person, or jerk person NPD is not helpful. 

You can live with this, and still find the diagnoses, assumed or other, of the abuser, is profoundly irrelevant in terms of your actual task, which is turning your attention towards your own healing. 

[Guest]

In Re: why do people tell me these things: 

I think oftentimes, the person wants to talk-process their own experience. This is true for diverse legal matters. Vehicle accident victims do it; people arrested for DUI do it; people who want a protective order against their neighbor do it; and of course, it happens in family law too. It is one reason I will interject questions to try to focus the person one how they specifically want us to help. The worst thing, which happened today, is when people do not want me to “interrupt” their monologue. They want me to “hear their side” of the story, which (sorry but…) wastes a heck-ton of my time while I miss four phone calls I needed to answer. It is something I actively plan to do better: not letting someone blab for forty minutes just as a verbal processing activity. 

[heartlikealion]

The question is did she call him a narcissist just because of the puppy example? Or she was just referring to him as one because of other reasons and that was just the latest annoying selfish thing he’d done? 

That alone would definitely not have me refer to anyone as a narcissist. Impulsive, selfish… sure. 

[heartlikealion]

How you deal with a narcissist in court is a whole topic. There are books and webinars. I’ve attended a couple and bought books on the topic. I even tried to join the One Mom’s Battle Facebook but drew the line when they asked for my court document numbers and stuff.

Maybe that’s why they brought it up??? I did not tell my lawyer’s secretary anything about my personal life. I did tell my lawyer stuff. I said I think he’s a narcissist. My therapist says he views things in terms of winning or losing. 

I was blown away when Xh agreed to a couple things in the settlement but also knew he maybe was just trying to get it over with. It doesn’t mean he was doing it to be nice. Who knows what was in his mind. He wasn’t prepared to pay for court I think. I was. But I wasn’t prepared to pay the judge’s standard child support figure. So it was in both our favors to sign a settlement. 

One webinar I attended (not a legal topic one but dealing with narcissists) they told me that the narcissist won’t give you something when you ask but when you say it doesn’t matter to you that’s when they’ll offer it. So basically knowing how they think you can get your way.  I know if I offer Xh help he’ll never take it. And yet acts surprised if I decline his. I know if I had just told him I didn’t care about this household item he would have probably given it to me lol I told him I wanted a dang bookmark and he said no then another time randomly gave it to me. Like it has to be on their terms, they have to be in control. 

That is relevant in court. Cruel and inhuman treatment is relevant in fault divorce. But most won’t be tangible evidence so you will have no grounds. And you definitely don’t need to say narcissist in court… just point out the facts, behaviors. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

ETA - If the puppy story is part of an ongoing discussion of a particular lady from higher up in the thread, I missed it. I haven't been keeping up with the lawyer conversation. I missed some posts and never went back to catch up. So, just disregard me, if I'm totally missing something.

No; I don’t give comprehensive stories that are all about one client; it’s too risky to possibly reveal something somebody knows or thinks they know. Sometimes I intentionally change irrelevant details, too, like maybe he actually bought a 10-ft Python and not a puppy. Or maybe it was the man who called and the wife actually bought the puppy. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I tell the stories but I may change some details so it doesn’t come back on me by some deranged stalker who thinks I’m talking about her case online. 

[Scarlett]

Today, I was thinking about  difficult people in my life. My XMIL. My XH.  Dh’s XW….her stupid affair spouse.   Those are all over now. No issues with any of them.

Dh has a very difficult older sister….but we just keep her at arms length

When we first moved here 10 years ago we were friends with a couple.  We had a lot of fun together.   Mexican night out with margaritas……just fun.  I got a along well with him…we texted and chatted. I have loooong experience in marriage and boundaries so I was always on high alert….making sure he always knew Dh was involved in all conversations. 

Dh’s long time friend had warned Dh about him when we first moved there. Something along the lines of ‘he is a freak, keep him away from your wife’.  Friend is not my favorite person, so I took it with a grain of salt.

Years went by…..I started to see things that made me go hmmm….far far too many things than I could type out here. One involved him covering up concerning behavior  of one of our boys.  Dh was very…um, stern to him about that.  But the suspicious behavior kept piling up until we just couldn’t take it.  We stopped hanging out with him and his wife completely. 
 

Last year I came into yet more information that pointed to his cheating. I told the wife about it….I did it in a way that made it impossible for the wife to lie in order to cover up for him. When she realized what I had done……she was enraged.  They left our congregation completely because they were being ‘persecuted’.  I have accepted that they are deeply sick and toxic people.  
 

All of that to say I can see that this man is dangerous and insidious. But here is my answer to that personally.  I stay away from him.  And that is really the answer for all of us.  
 

When people show you who they are…..believe them..  

[heartlikealion]

Stay away only works for some relationships. Most therapists will acknowledge that “no contact” is not always practical. Bosses, co-parents etc. 

Where no contact is not practical they often recommend gray rock… or the less known yellow rock. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Stay away only works for some relationships. Most therapists will acknowledge that “no contact” is not always practical. Bosses, co-parents etc. 

Where no contact is not practical they often recommend gray rock… or the less known yellow rock. 

What’s the yellow rock? Pee on a rock and throw it at their head? 😄

[Indigo Blue]

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Stay away only works for some relationships. Most therapists will acknowledge that “no contact” is not always practical. Bosses, co-parents etc. 

Where no contact is not practical they often recommend gray rock… or the less known yellow rock. 

It works for more relationships than you might think.  If a boss is a dangerous  NPD that would otherwise require no contact if he were not your boss than I would do all in my power to get a different job.  Co-parenting requires very little direct communication and email/text and a joint on line calendar is recommended for difficult situations.  
 

I have experience in both of these things….the manager  part as recently as a few months ago.  I would not say he was a NPD but he was definitely scary at times.

[Scarlett]

To me the most difficult are parents and adult children.  And spouses,  if children are involved and divorce could make things worse.  

[heartlikealion]

Yellow rock is less cold. 

I definitely would try to quit a job if my boss was that awful unless it was someone I seldom had to interact with and was otherwise happy there. 

The coparenting app failed to meet all our needs and I always forget to look at the app. Simple communication can be annoying (telling each other things related to the children) so I probably need to put more in writing. Told him on Sunday (because he had called the kids) that I was lending ds a lunch bag since ds left his in his locker Friday. Said you can return my lunch bag at high school open house Mon. Arrived with bag Sun night at drop off and he said, “what’s this?” - explained again - he said you never told me. 🙄 “I don’t want this.” So I took the bag and left. Ugh. Lol 

I realized late in the game that my MIL acted narcissistic. She couldn’t apologize or be wrong. She gaslit. It was hard for me to go no contact with her as it looked like I was a b*tch or the difficult family member. But she passed away last year and we’re divorced so it’s a non issue. But I’d say grandparents can be a tricky set to deal with depending on family dynamics and traditions. 

[Slache]

It had never dawned on me not to say please, thank you and hello. That's just rude. Grey rock is to prevent from giving feed and information, I don't see why being polite would be bad.

[Indigo Blue]

48 minutes ago, Slache said:

It had never dawned on me not to say please, thank you and hello. That's just rude. Grey rock is to prevent from giving feed and information, I don't see why being polite would be bad.

I never even heard of yellow rock until yesterday. I just dug that up from the Internets because I was curious. Huh. Now I know.