PLEASE help me: How hard do you push your child?

[JenniferB]

I thought the same thing (I'm addressing your first comment) - then I joined this forum and saw the long list of subjects in everyone's siggy: Example - DS 4 FIAR, BJU Science, Abeka Social Studies, HWT, ETC, LLATL, Guitar Lessons, Piano Lessons, Latin, French, Choir, Voice Lessons, Private Art class, and on and on.... And I thought, Good grief! I better catch up to these people or my daughter will fall behind!

 

I have met a couple of homeschooling moms but their daughters were older than mine. The mothers seemed so incredibly relaxed; I was like, How can you be so relaxed about this?!?! One mom only used two items to teach her daughter: Workbooks from Sam's Club and old videos of Schoolhouse Rock!!! :confused:

 

Jessie,

 

Oh I cracked up FOTFL when I read your description of someone's sig line! Oh, that's so funny, I'm still laughing! Then, compare that to the mom who only uses Sam's Club workbooks and Schoolhouse Rock videos! What a hoot! I'm just busting up. Aren't we mothers hilarious? I'm gong to try to read all the comments eventually (haven't yet). I'm sure I don't have anything new to say, except maybe, that you crack me up!

 

:smilielol5:

[kalanamak]

 

Wow ... reading two hours every evening sounds like heaven. We are nowhere near that. I am about to collapse from exhaustion. I think we need to rearrange our schedule to read more! We used to read about an hour a day. I miss that. :(

 

You need to enlist another person to run those little tykes about HARD in a park or swimming pool for an hour or two, while you re-coup.

Then, curl up in bed or the on the couch an hour before bedtime and go as long as you can.

[Lovedtodeath]

I also get even more worked up because my 3 y.o. son is running around the house making noise and distracting us while we're trying to homeschool. I've received different advice: Offer him work to do (yeah right - he's a Wiggly Willy), Ignore him, Send him off to preschool, Put him in front of the TV, Give him toys to play with quietly - but you know, none of this is working and I end up yelling at him and my daughter (because he's made me so tense that I snap at her).

 

:grouphug: I did not even notice this at first. If your sig had the same ages as mine I would be worried that I had posted this under another name. We go through the exact same thing! Usually, I just give up trying to do school for that day (today was one of those). Or at least wait a while b4 trying again.

[Lovedtodeath]

Did you read my thread on sig lines?

 

We used to get an hour a day in of reading aloud. It has gotten harder and we generally only get 20-30 minutes now.

[Ellie]

We just started homeschooling about two weeks ago. I was so optimistic and excited. Then I mentioned to my husband's cousin that we are homeschooling and she said, "Oh, I know a couple who tried that with their kindergarten-age kids. Then the kids didn't pass the kindergarten test at school so the parents had to send them on to public schools."

Oh please. Your dh's cousin is completely clueless. I don't believe for an instant that that's what really happened. You shouldn't believe it, either.

 

OK, so now I am a wreck. My state (NC) demands testing every year for homeschooled children, and I now am terrified that my daughter will fail a test and the state will make me send her to public schools! So this morning she was not understanding a math concept and I fussed at her and told her she would have to go away if she did not pay attention! (I know, that was harsh, but I was really worked up at the time.) I am really losing my mind over this issue. I don't want to fail! :sad:

:chillpill:

I know you've already been told this, but NC doesn't require testing until a child is 7, and there is no requirement for children to test at any certain percentile.

 

Furthermore, you'd have to be a real dunce to "fail." And if I hear that you've told your dd she'll have to go away if she doesn't pay attention, I'll have to come over there!:auto:

 

I also get even more worked up because my 3 y.o. son is running around the house making noise and distracting us while we're trying to homeschool. I've received different advice: Offer him work to do (yeah right - he's a Wiggly Willy), Ignore him, Send him off to preschool, Put him in front of the TV, Give him toys to play with quietly - but you know, none of this is working and I end up yelling at him and my daughter (because he's made me so tense that I snap at her).

 

As you can see, I need help. Please, someone! :crying:

 

You have little bitty dc. You're worrying way too much, girlfriend. With such young dc, you should be reading to them and letting them play most of the day. Read this article by Dr. Raymond Moore. Relax. Everything is fine.

[RootAnn]

I feel compelled to add my voice to the many. When they are so young, any "school" you do should be FUN. I had two goals when my oldest was a K'er - help her to learn to read and have her be able to sit still for 30 minutes. The spring of that year, I went to the "K" information meeting at the local public school. I had started her a year earlier than she would have been allowed to go because of her late birthday (November). I left feeling extremely confident that I had covered everything necessary for her to be ready to start public school first grade. (Not that we were planning on doing that. It was my self-check.)

 

We didn't do a formal K-level math program. We just played with coins, did dot-the-dots, and sometimes passed a ball around on the floor counting by ones to see how high we could go. Otherwise, we did a lot of reading.

 

I have an almost-three year old who was for several months the bane of my homeschooling life! She is much better, although she still wants her share of Mom's attention! Please, please, please - don't look at your youngster's noise as an interruption. Take it as an opportunity to chase him down (perhaps pretending to be an ogre or a dog) and tickle him. Give him a hug. :grouphug: Scoop him up and offer to play blocks with him for awhile. None of these will stop him from making lots of noise and causing chaos in your mind. But, it will be a much nicer memory for him than that of your voice snapping at him. [i admit snapping too often and not following my own advice enough. But one can always strive for this!]

 

Have FUN. All too soon (although it doesn't feel that way right now!), you will be "buckling down" for serious academic work. Relax. Less is more.

 

And now, I think I'll print this out to remind myself about this tomorrow when I want my five year old K'er to figure out that "12" means "twelve" and not "two-teen." :tongue_smilie:

[stripe]

And find the documentary "Touch of Greatness." I just checked it out from my library. It's a documentary about a public school teacher from the 1950s/60s who taught things like Shakespeare with such enthusiasm and love, and the kids loved it. There's some great footage in there. He was a huge advocate of play.

 

And seriously -- consider what I said about your "vegetables" comment. You don't want to put her off nutritious food, either!

[MitchellMom]

Jessie,

 

Oh I cracked up FOTFL when I read your description of someone's sig line! Oh, that's so funny, I'm still laughing! Then, compare that to the mom who only uses Sam's Club workbooks and Schoolhouse Rock videos! What a hoot! I'm just busting up. Aren't we mothers hilarious? I'm gong to try to read all the comments eventually (haven't yet). I'm sure I don't have anything new to say, except maybe, that you crack me up!

 

:smilielol5:

 

Glad I made someone laugh! :D

 

You need to enlist another person to run those little tykes about HARD in a park or swimming pool for an hour or two, while you re-coup.

Then, curl up in bed or the on the couch an hour before bedtime and go as long as you can.

 

There is no one to help ... my husband works three jobs so on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays we do not see him at all.

 

 

Did you read my thread on sig lines?

 

We used to get an hour a day in of reading aloud. It has gotten harder and we generally only get 20-30 minutes now.

 

I read some of the thread ... I need to go back and read the rest - thanks!

 

Not when you are 4. It isn't hard to make school fun at this age. There isn't any reason at. all. that she needs to be working at school. She can learn all of the skills you want her to learn with games and songs. She should just think she is playing with mom, nothing more.

 

At 7 yo my dd still says she loves math (most of the time) because we only did it when she wanted to and we kept it fun. School is a positive thing for her still. She doesn't always love it ad now she is learning to work a little even if she doesn't want to, but never ever force book work on a preschooler. You don't want to burn her out before she is even compulsory school age! Use the book as a guide to tell you what to cover but come up with games to teach the skills.

 

One other thing, most of those tests only cover math and basic LA. We never have things like history or science on the tests. What would be the point since every school and district does something different for content areas?

 

I guess I worry because, for example, our math yesterday had apples on paper divided in half. My dd had to draw seeds in the apple, some on one side, some on the other, then write the number of seeds she had drawn beneath each side of the apple and then add them. She kept forgetting what to do (though I know she knows how to add!) and I was so frustrated. I was thinking, "What if the state test demands that she adds this way and she can't remember how to do it, and they think she doesn't know how to add when she really does?!" This was stressing me out!

[Haiku]

She just doesn't want to work hard sometimes, which irritates me.

 

Of course she doesn't. She's four. Why does a four year old need to know any math? For a test she'll take in three years? Imo, it's not worth the stress now. I say this gently, but lighten up. Your daughter will thank you for it, and in a few years, you will look back on this thread and laugh.

 

If you are at the point of threatening to send your daughter away because she's not getting the math concept you are trying to teach, I'd immediately stop all academics. Just let her be four. You can ease back into when she is in Kindergarten. Four is not K age, no matter how bright she is. I didn't even do K with my daughter (who is now six and in first grade). We are 20 weeks into our school year and she is reading independently and adding in the hundreds. My attitude is, why waste time on something that is hard/developmentally inappropriate for a young child when that same thing will come much more easily when they are older and developmentally ready?

 

Tara

[Tiramisu]

I've skimmed a lot of the responses, so this may have been said already.

 

I have four children and have been homeschooling for only a short time, but I did work with my kids at home before we started homeschooling. There are others much more knowledgeable and experienced than I, but I will put in my two cents...

 

The biggest thing I've learned--and it's taken three kids learning to read and do math to get there--is that we can push and push, and it can take lots of time, effort, and frustration to cover a little ground. Or, we can see our young dc's struggling with something that they might not be developmentally ready for, we can back off and go back to it a month or two later and check again. Eventually, they hit a point when they seem to make tremendous strides without me doing much of anything because they are simply developmentally ready. When that happens, I am awed at the leaps and bound they can make in a very short time.

 

I sympathize with you so much. I really remember my level of frustration with my first and second. Knowing what I do now, I wish I could go back to that time, give them a hug and put away the book when they had obviously had enough. It would have been better for all of us.

 

HTH!

[MitchellMom]

Of course she doesn't. She's four. Why does a four year old need to know any math? For a test she'll take in three years? Imo, it's not worth the stress now. I say this gently, but lighten up. Your daughter will thank you for it, and in a few years, you will look back on this thread and laugh.

 

If you are at the point of threatening to send your daughter away because she's not getting the math concept you are trying to teach, I'd immediately stop all academics. Just let her be four. You can ease back into when she is in Kindergarten. Four is not K age, no matter how bright she is. I didn't even do K with my daughter (who is now six and in first grade). We are 20 weeks into our school year and she is reading independently and adding in the hundreds. My attitude is, why waste time on something that is hard/developmentally inappropriate for a young child when that same thing will come much more easily when they are older and developmentally ready?

 

Tara

 

 

Oh, please let me clarify: I did not threaten to send her away! I told her she would have to go to public school. :( Meaning, I'm so scared that if she fails the state test, the state will make her go to public school! I did not tell her that *I* would send her away. Does that make sense? I hope so!!!

[Haiku]

Apparently I misunderstood you. Your original post said,

 

told her she would have to go away

.

 

I understand now, but I would still recommend stopping academics if you are this stressed out about it.

 

Tara

[stripe]

Oh, please let me clarify: I did not threaten to send her away! I told her she would have to go to public school. :( Meaning, I'm so scared that if she fails the state test, the state will make her go to public school! I did not tell her that *I* would send her away. Does that make sense? I hope so!!!

 

All of this stress and nervousness is based on someone who doesn't homeschool saying she knows someone whose child didn't "perform" adequately on a state test after a year at home and was compelled to send the child to public school. In other words, it's an unsubstantiated rumor of someone else's failure. Several people have pointed out that your state doesn't have compulsory school at kindergarten age, and also that the testing may just be to put in your own file and produce on request. I think you need very much to inform yourself from reputable sources about the laws in your state, in addition to reevaluating your approach.

[stripe]

In the next three years you can slowly change school time from all fun to fun and interesting work and if the work increases appropriately for her developmental stage she will still have a positive outlook about school, even when there is a lot more work and less play in the later years.

 

Really good reminder for all of us -- I wonder if you honestly embrace the idea of your child's learning as being fun for her? I keep asking this because I found your "vegetable" comment so striking. My take: Neither vegetables nor learning should be suffered through. One of the reasons homeschooling seems like a good fit for my children is that they are active. So the idea of plopping them down all day long in front of workbooks and expecting them to be quiet, just isn't quite what I have in mind...But it's a hard image to get rid of as education. Is it for you?

[Haiku]

:grouphug: The point is though that you are doing a first grade math book with a preschooler. STOP IT!

 

:iagree:

 

You said you read that Saxon 1 can be done with a kindergartner. I wouldn't know, as we don't use Saxon. It's fine if some people can use Saxon 1 with a kindergartner. But your daughter is not a kindergartner. Perhaps you are thinking of her as one, but she's not. Four year olds are not in kindergarten. Don't expect first grade work from a 4 year old. You are setting yourself and, most importantly, your daughter up for failure if you do this. Look at all the tizzy that apple seeds have caused you! :001_smile:

 

Tara

[Lovedtodeath]

:iagree:

 

You said you read that Saxon 1 can be done with a kindergartner. I wouldn't know, as we don't use Saxon. It's fine if some people can use Saxon 1 with a kindergartner. But your daughter is not a kindergartner. Perhaps you are thinking of her as one, but she's not. Four year olds are not in kindergarten. Don't expect first grade work from a 4 year old. You are setting yourself and, most importantly, your daughter up for failure if you do this. Look at all the tizzy that apple seeds have caused you! :001_smile:

 

Tara

 

I made the same mistake... expecting a higher level from my DD. Those are the parts of the sig thread that I wanted you to get. I think Saxon is a great program. If you want to use it that's great! Put it away for a year... then pull it out when she is an advanced K5.

 

It is not just the age that is an issue either. I kept pushing SL and I asked for help on here... "How do you get your kids to do SL?" The answer? It is not a good fit for her right now, so stop trying!!

[AuntPol]

:iagree:

 

It's fine if some people can use Saxon 1 with a kindergartner. But your daughter is not a kindergartner. Perhaps you are thinking of her as one, but she's not. Four year olds are not in kindergarten. Don't expect first grade work from a 4 year old. You are setting yourself and, most importantly, your daughter up for failure if you do this. Look at all the tizzy that apple seeds have caused you! :001_smile:

 

Tara

 

I so agree

 

I am a Charlotte Mason follower and here is what Pre-K and K should be (IMHO)

 

1. To recite, beautifully, 6 easy poems and hymns

Note -The word "easy" -this is nursery rhymes and "Jesus Loves Me" type of easy. One every few months or so.

2. to recite, perfectly and beautifully, a parable and a psalm

Again something easy from Sunday School or an aesop fable and a song depending on your beliefs. This is also more of a latter K year thing (IMHO)

3. to add and subtract numbers up to 10, with dominoes or counters

You do this with Cheerios, Fruit Loops, Gummy Bears, M&M's, plastic animals, etc. while playing and cooking and living life.

 

*Make patterned fruit loop necklaces, sort and count everything, listen to math songs, make your own counting books with stickers. There is no need to buy math for anyone below 6.

 

4. to read--what and how much, will depend on what we are told of the child

Note it doesn't mean they need to be reading War and Peace or even reading "well". Learn the alphabet, watch letter factory and word factory, play starfall every few weeks and when ready start OPGTR or 100 EZ. If she's not ready, put away for a few weeks and return. Shorten lessons or turn a lesson into a game. I wrote letters on the driveway with chalk and we had fun jumping from letter to letter.

 

5. to copy in print-hand from a book

Handwriting without Tears or something simple -no more than 5 minutes a day. This is letters then words and then short sentences not paragraphs!

 

6. to know the points of the compass with relation to their own home, where the sun rises and sets, and the way the wind blows

7. to describe the boundries of their own home

8. to describe any lake, river, pond, island etc. within easy reach

All this is done by going on nature walks and neighborhood walks and CASUALLY discussing things.

 

9. to tell quite accurately (however shortly) 3 stories from Bible history, 3 from early English, and 3 from early Roman history (my note here, we may want to substitute early American for early English!)

 

Quite simply have her tell back short pictures that you read to her. Most of the stories could be holiday oriented

Bible -Christmas, Easter, Passover (plus stories like Noah's Ark, etc)

Early American -Columbus, Thanksgiving, Independence Day

Early Roman-St. Patrick (he was a Roman British Citizen), Valentine's Day (Valentine was Roman)

 

10. to be able to describe 3 walks and 3 views

11. to mount in a scrap book a dozen common wildflowers, with leaves (one every week); to name these, describe them in their own words, and say where they found them.

12. to do the same with leaves and flowers of 6 forest trees

13. to know 6 birds by song, colour and shape

 

Again, nature walks and start collections for wild flowers and leaves. Build a bird feeder together and look at the birds.

 

 

14. to send in certain Kindergarten or other handiwork, as directed

 

Make Christmas ornaments, cards, nature crafts, decorate cookies, color and draw, make nature collages, etc.

 

15. to tell three stories about their own "pets"--rabbit, dog or cat.

 

Play with your pet -walk the dog, make dog biscuits, cat toys, point an interesting thing about the pet. Go to Pet Smart and look at different breeds

 

16. to name 20 common objects in French, and say a dozen little sentences

 

Learn some songs in language of your choice.

 

17. to sing one hymn, one French song, and one English song

 

Learn more songs lol

 

18. to keep a caterpillar and tell the life-story of a butterfly from his own observations.

 

Always a favorite around here!!

 

And goodness, you don't need to do every subject everyday at this age. One day go on a nature walk, another day do a math game, another day cook, another sing songs while swinging at the park. If you do more than one thing a day, definitely don't do them back to back!!!!

 

 

BTW -I am in NC too. My dd is in public school. 40% of her grade failed both portions of the EOG and 20% more failed another portion. EVERY one of those kids were promoted to the next grade. Trust me, NC has more to worry about than one homeschooled child not passing!

[Haiku]

K5

 

Not picking on you, LTD, but I don't even like the terms K4 and K5. To me, that just encourages people to think that K should be two years and that 4 year olds should be able to do K-level work. When I see "K4," I always wonder why people think four year olds need to be in K-anything.

 

Tara

[Guest]

I haven't read all of the replies, but I hope you've received some encouragement!

 

Just wanted to add that we are doing Saxon K this year and absolutely love it. At first, I was frustrated if ds didn't grasp a concept. (Not with him, just not sure what to do or how to teach it differently.) Then, I realized how the spiral method works - you will go over that concept many times throughout the year and you'll be shocked - by the second, third time - they got it, no problem!

[Guest]

I wanted to come back and add some of the best advice I've gotten on here, re: littles. It was actually a question posed to me: WHY would you spend so much time teaching a younger child something that an older child will grasp in a fraction of that time?

 

This person's intention was for me to put off schooling to a later time. While I didn't take that advice, I loved the concept of the question and have it constantly in the back of my mind. At our kids' ages, I do believe any kind of learning should be fun. Anytime I see that our school is starting to go down the "No Fun" road, I ask myself that person's question and figure out how to get us on the "Fun" road again. Why stress? They will pick it up eventually! Sometimes, this means that when we do workbooks, my son and I do them together: all of the sudden, it's not stressful anymore. It becomas a bonding time where we are doing something educational. He does learn through those times, I am amazed at how much. When we do our math, we make it playtime and include little sister in playing with the manipulatives.

 

Oops, gotta go clean up PB&J....{{{Hugs}}}

[Renee in NC]

Just to clarify:

 

Raleigh does not get a copy of your dd's test results unless you send them to them. I never have.

 

You do not have to test until the child is 7. It doesn't have to be in the spring, fall, or any other specified time - just sometime before she turns EIGHT!

[Garga]

Find a local homeschool group person to talk to. I live in PA which is the 2nd most strict state in the union (after NY).

 

My kids have to be tested, BUT it's all just jumping through hoops. If they fail miserably the state CANNOT force them to go to public school.

 

Find out the laws in your state. Find out the ramifications of passing or failing the tests. There might not be any ramifications.

[MitchellMom]

Really good reminder for all of us -- I wonder if you honestly embrace the idea of your child's learning as being fun for her? I keep asking this because I found your "vegetable" comment so striking. My take: Neither vegetables nor learning should be suffered through. One of the reasons homeschooling seems like a good fit for my children is that they are active. So the idea of plopping them down all day long in front of workbooks and expecting them to be quiet, just isn't quite what I have in mind...But it's a hard image to get rid of as education. Is it for you?

 

Yes, it is hard ... I taught kindergarten and first grade so I admit totally to being stuck in that mindset. Never thought of it before....

 

3. to add and subtract numbers up to 10, with dominoes or counters

 

 

I know CM says this, but the state of NC says children have to know numbers up to 30....

 

I haven't read all of the replies, but I hope you've received some encouragement!

 

Just wanted to add that we are doing Saxon K this year and absolutely love it. At first, I was frustrated if ds didn't grasp a concept. (Not with him, just not sure what to do or how to teach it differently.) Then, I realized how the spiral method works - you will go over that concept many times throughout the year and you'll be shocked - by the second, third time - they got it, no problem!

 

You are right on this last part ... we sat down to draw apples and seeds this morning. She got it, no problem!!:)

[hischool]

I'm a newbie too and we're only afterschooling.

 

I push my child as much as possible. My motto is "pushing without tears" :D.

 

I really think there are more pushers than people will openly admit.

 

On the other hand, it maybe the curriculum that you're using doesn't fit your dd. I have the same experience. I change curriculum a couple times and I found that sometimes, the grass is really greener!

[Renee in NC]

I know CM says this, but the state of NC says children have to know numbers up to 30....

 

The state of NC does not control what you do or do not do with your child. They have ZERO control over the content or standards of your private school. Yes, NC state math standards call for dc in K to count to 30, but that doesn't mean that your daughter has to. NO child in NC is required to do this because K is NOT mandatory. There is no manadatory passing of anything even for dc in ps K until THIRD grade (with the first required pass on an EOG.) Even then, it is arbitrary - my oldest did not pass the Reading EOG in 5th grade, but they passed him anyway.

 

It doesn't matter now anyway because your daughter is not in K - she did not meet the state cutoff of August 31 for turning 5. She would not be allowed in K in a public school.

[Lovedtodeath]

Mitchell Mom,

 

Going through this thread you may feel like you are getting picked on, or that the people who are replying are the Charlotte Mason/Unschoolers and not the true Classical Schoolers. (That is what I thought when I got almost the same advice not so long ago.) Well, I started out pushing more, and I started out believing my DD was capable of 2nd grade work, and I started out with a loaded schedule and more rigorous curriculum. Many of us did. We have learned that it just doesn't work, and there really is little point because as they get older and hit developemental milestones they catch up and exceed so quickly. Really, many of us have been through the exact same situation and we have learned from it, and we are not picking on you or judging you in any way.

 

I so agree

 

I am a Charlotte Mason follower and here is what Pre-K and K should be (IMHO)

 

It is believed that these are achievements to be obtained at some point by the time a child is 6... In other words, before they turn 7. Their was some discussion of this at amblesideonline.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[Renee in NC]

Well, I started out pushing more, and I started out believing my DD was capable of 2nd grade work, and I started out with a loaded schedule and more rigorous curriculum. Many of us did. We have learned that it just doesn't work, and there really is little point because as they get older and hit developemental milestones they catch up and exceed so quickly. Really, many of us have been through the exact same situation and we have learned from it, and we are not picking on you or judging you in any way.

 

 

I did the same with my now 10yo and then went to far the other way with his brother. I hope to hit a good middle ground with the next 4!

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Mitchell Mom,

 

Going through this thread you may feel like you are getting picked on, or that the people who are replying are the Charlotte Mason/Unschoolers and not the true Classical Schoolers. (That is what I thought when I got almost the same advice not so long ago.) Well, I started out pushing more, and I started out believing my DD was capable of 2nd grade work, and I started out with a loaded schedule and more rigorous curriculum. Many of us did. We have learned that it just doesn't work, and there really is little point because as they get older and hit developemental milestones they catch up and exceed so quickly. Really, many of us have been through the exact same situation and we have learned from it, and we are not picking on you or judging you in any way.

 

Yes, as a lurker coming out of my shell more and more, it seems to me that whenever anyone comes on asking about plans for Kinder at age 4 and how is this schedule for Pre-K or Kinder or early elementary for that matter, the sages are here. They're not trying to burst bubbles and they don't think you're an idiot. They are mostly just people who have been there and done that and truly want to help newbies relax and enjoy the ride more than they did in the beginning.

 

Just my obvservation...

 

Kristina

[Renee in NC]

Yes, as a lurker coming out of my shell more and more, it seems to me that whenever anyone comes on asking about plans for Kinder at age 4 and how is this schedule for Pre-K or Kinder or early elementary for that matter, the sages are here. They're not trying to burst bubbles and they don't think you're an idiot. They are mostly just people who have been there and done that and truly want to help newbies relax and enjoy the ride more than they did in the beginning.

 

Just my obvservation...

 

Kristina

 

And 5 years ago, I thought, "They don't know what they are talking about! My ds is capable of so much more!"

 

I know better now. Not that small children aren't capable, but that we don't have to push quite so much to get to the same place we would have gotten otherwise.

 

I commend the OP that she is worried about her dd's character and reluctance to do hard things, but a little hard is fine - too hard and it can backfire (ask me how I know!:tongue_smilie:)

[MitchellMom]

The state of NC does not control what you do or do not do with your child. They have ZERO control over the content or standards of your private school. Yes, NC state math standards call for dc in K to count to 30, but that doesn't mean that your daughter has to. NO child in NC is required to do this because K is NOT mandatory. There is no manadatory passing of anything even for dc in ps K until THIRD grade (with the first required pass on an EOG.) Even then, it is arbitrary - my oldest did not pass the Reading EOG in 5th grade, but they passed him anyway.

 

It doesn't matter now anyway because your daughter is not in K - she did not meet the state cutoff of August 31 for turning 5. She would not be allowed in K in a public school.

 

She can count past 30 and recognize her numbers that high ... I was just pointing it out.... Not that it matters anyway. :) If it's not mandatory, then why do teachers around here make such a big deal out of it?...

 

 

Mitchell Mom,

 

Going through this thread you may feel like you are getting picked on, or that the people who are replying are the Charlotte Mason/Unschoolers and not the true Classical Schoolers. (That is what I thought when I got almost the same advice not so long ago.) Well, I started out pushing more, and I started out believing my DD was capable of 2nd grade work, and I started out with a loaded schedule and more rigorous curriculum. Many of us did. We have learned that it just doesn't work, and there really is little point because as they get older and hit developemental milestones they catch up and exceed so quickly. Really, many of us have been through the exact same situation and we have learned from it, and we are not picking on you or judging you in any way.

 

Thank you for saying that - it's sweet of you!

 

And 5 years ago, I thought, "They don't know what they are talking about! My ds is capable of so much more!"

 

I know better now. Not that small children aren't capable, but that we don't have to push quite so much to get to the same place we would have gotten otherwise.

 

I commend the OP that she is worried about her dd's character and reluctance to do hard things, but a little hard is fine - too hard and it can backfire (ask me how I know!:tongue_smilie:)

 

I definitely don't want it to backfire. On top of everything else, I'm terrified of making her not like school.

 

ANOTHER thing I meant to mention in my original post: CM said to never repeat directions or stories twice - she said to read things only once and never repeat it because otherwise we are encouraging our children to be lazy listeners. So one of the biggest deals with the apples was that she needed me to repeat the directions sometimes and I was like, "No! I can't repeat the directions because then that will make you a lazy listener!" :tongue_smilie: How "literally" should we take what CM says?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

[Mommy22alyns]

ANOTHER thing I meant to mention in my original post: CM said to never repeat directions or stories twice - she said to read things only once and never repeat it because otherwise we are encouraging our children to be lazy listeners. So one of the biggest deals with the apples was that she needed me to repeat the directions sometimes and I was like, "No! I can't repeat the directions because then that will make you a lazy listener!" :tongue_smilie: How "literally" should we take what CM says?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

 

 

School your daughter. Meet her where she is. Prep her beforehand, tell her you need her "listening ears," but don't be a slave to any method, curriculum, book, person, etc. The best thing about homeschooling is that we get to teach our kids how they learn best and meet them where they are at.

 

Jessie, I'm tempted to tell you to take your Christmas break starting now! :001_smile: :grouphug: ;)

 

And PS - don't be terrified of anything. Haven't you been "teaching" your kids since birth? Yes you have. Naming it doesn't change it that much.

[MitchellMom]

School your daughter. Meet her where she is. Prep her beforehand, tell her you need her "listening ears," but don't be a slave to any method, curriculum, book, person, etc. The best thing about homeschooling is that we get to teach our kids how they learn best and meet them where they are at.

 

Jessie, I'm tempted to tell you to take your Christmas break starting now! :001_smile: :grouphug: ;)

 

And PS - don't be terrified of anything. Haven't you been "teaching" your kids since birth? Yes you have. Naming it doesn't change it that much.

 

I actually took a little break today from math and did it very casually - and enjoyed it much more! So did my dd! Your last statement is profound - you are right: Naming it doesn't change anything. I guess I'm just terrified that someone will come and tell me I am not doing good enough.

[Angel]

I don't know your reasons for homeschooling, but one of my biggies is being able to teach my dc at their own pace and schedule. I could care less what the state of Ohio says are appropriate standards for my dd's. They will learn at an individual pace. The beauty of being HOMEschooled. If you were a teacher, then I can understand your struggle to "break" from the mold. As a school teacher did you always agree with the standards that your kids were supposed to learn in school? I know my ps teacher cousin does not.

 

It really seems as if you are set on teaching you dd whatever advice you hear here. I wonder if you've asked yourself "why" you want your 4.5 yo doing 1st grade math or any other heavy curriculum? Is it because she can? Is it because of these standards you are hearing? Is it because you are so excited about beginning homeschool? Is it because you want to say that your 4.5 yo is doing 1st grade work? Or some other reason. I ask because I had a dd who began school 8 weeks before she turned 5. She was smart. She tested out fine. She could do it. Now at 14, she is a very young 9th grader and she is scheduled to graduate at 17. I never would have thought of that at almost 5yo. I regret not giving her that extra year. Your dd has so many years of formal education ahead of her. Let her be a kid a little while longer.

[Tonia]

CM said to never repeat directions or stories twice - she said to read things only once and never repeat it because otherwise we are encouraging our children to be lazy listeners. So one of the biggest deals with the apples was that she needed me to repeat the directions sometimes and I was like, "No! I can't repeat the directions because then that will make you a lazy listener!" :tongue_smilie: How "literally" should we take what CM says?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

 

Charlotte Mason did not start school with a child before age six. Before that the focus was listening and habit formation (and the list of attainments for a child of six years old). In that context, teaching a child to listen the first time is a good thing. But you are trying to apply that method to schoolwork with a four year old child, which she would not have advocated.

 

Aside from that, my dd is enjoying school (she's a k'er) but it is all child led. I do not force her to do school at this age. And if either of us is getting frustrated it's time to back off. You've gotten lots of good advice from the ladies here, so take some time to evaluate your goals for your child.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Tonia

[Haiku]

CM had some fantastic ideas, and she has influenced my homeschooling. But you know what? I certainly repeat things to my kids. Especially to my son, for whom verbal and auditory processing are not his strong suit, getting an extra chance to hear something gives him more time to assimilate and reflect on it. I vary my tone, the pacing with which I say something, or which words I emphasize the second time through. I don't think I am encouraging my son to be a "lazy listener." This is the same kid who will sit for an hour to hear a story and be able to tell me in great detail what it was about. That, however, is because he has time to reflect on the story and see it in its whole. He struggles with very short directions, such as "Circle the picture that starts with 'fl'" precisely because it's so clipped. He has what, 3.5 seconds to hear it and then is expected to respond? That just doesn't work for him. And, there is a difference between paying attention and understanding something. A child might pay attention and hear your directions but not understand them. It doesn't benefit anyone to say, "Do this math because you need to learn math, but if you don't understand the directions I'm not going to repeat them for you because you have to learn to listen." That seems to be working at cross purposes.

 

And besides, Charlotte Mason doesn't advocate schooling a child until 6 or 7.

 

As someone else asked, I'd be very interested to know why you think that your 4 year old would benefit from a first grade curriculum.

 

Tara

[The Governess]

I started my dd4 with Singapore Earlybird math. It's a K math curriculum, and it isn't super challenging for her. But I think that sometimes it's important, especially at this age, for kids to have something that is easy for them to do. It helps build their confidence, it's more fun, and for a 4 year old, it keeps them from giving up or starting to hate a subject. Even if your dd tested into the grade 1 curriculum, it might be a good idea to start with K for that reason. If it's really easy for her, she'll probably finish it quickly and then you can move on to grade 1. But at least she won't dread the work because she feels like she can't understand it, even if she *could* understand it with enough effort.

 

:grouphug: I think the most important thing at this age is to help your dd LOVE learning. If she loves to learn, your job will be much easier in the long run. I strive to make school so enjoyable for dd4 that when I tell her it's school time she comes running to the table, happy and excited. So make school relaxed and fun, give your dd things to do that excite her and build her confidence and wait on things that she's not really interested in yet. You still have a LOT of time before you need to worry about anything, if you need to worry at all. :001_smile:

 

Think about this: In public school, your dd would be one of 30 in a classroom, with very little one-on-one time with a teacher. The teacher wouldn't be able to teach specifically to her learning style. You have a HUGE advantage at home because you only have two students to split your time between and you know your children better than any public school teacher would. And you can teach your children so much more than how to do well on a standardized test.

 

And as for my siggy: We do those things daily, but if dd4 starts losing interest, we pack everything up for the day. ;)

[Colleen in NS]

We just started homeschooling about two weeks ago. I was so optimistic and excited......I don't want to fail! :sad:

 

You are not going to fail!!!! :D :grouphug:

 

You've gotten a ton of good advice here, esp. about the legalities you are concerned about.

 

Home educating is so different from public school. My Mom taught in public schools for many years, and she is solidly supportive of homeschooling - 1000%. She thinks everyone should homeschool their kids, LOL! Anyway, if you were a teacher, I can understand why you'd be terrified and comparing and worried about what others think.

 

But the way you home educate is far different from the way public schools educate - you can't really compare. You just look at your own kids, figure out what skills and content you want them to learn (and I found WTM to be a great guide from which to work), and help them learn it at appropriate times (again, WTM is a great guide for me for this). It really is ultimately more efficient, AND, you don't have to push to see progress.

 

My dd was a fall baby, so when she wasn't officially 1st grade age yet, I had her doing 1st grade work. When she was registered the following year for 1st grade and I had her doing 2nd grade work, she started to "fall behind" in her work. I thought, "This is ridiculous, she's not 'behind,' she's officially in 1st grade, not 2nd!" So I backed up and everything smoothed out.

 

If you want to hear from a real veteran, get Jessie Wise's (who was also a teacher before homeschooling her kids) CD called If I Could Do It Over Again, available at Peace Hill Press. She's the co-author of WTM, and SWB's mother. She taught 3 kids at home, beginning in the SEVENTIES, and took them all the way through high school, and her kids have all done very well - these forums are just one small result of her efforts - yet look how many thousands of people they help. And her CD is one of the most encouraging talks I've ever listened to about homeschooling - she's so gentle, so encouraging, so practical, so calming to listen to. She (and my mother:D) are the cheerleaders of homeschoolers everywhere, saying "You can do it! You won't fail!"

 

BTW, about how literally you take Charlotte Mason's words.....we could all ask that about anyone we listen to about homeschooling (or parenting, or marriage, or anything else in life). It's good to get advice about these things, but we have to make our own decisions (and that's what makes it so scary, because then WE become responsible for what happens!:D). So, you get advice, carefully consider everything, make a decision, and live with it or change it (I'm preaching to myself here, too, LOL).

 

Good luck and remember, you will do just fine. Just heed the advice you've received here. And come back regularly for reassurance!! I do all the time!:D

[Lovedtodeath]

As someone else asked, I'd be very interested to know why you think that your 4 year old would benefit from a first grade curriculum.

 

She chose Saxon, gave her the placement test, and she placed into it.

 

In the spirit of supporting the OP, I can answer for myself that my initial homeschooling goal was to keep DD at least one grade level ahead. Why? Because that gives me leeway, if she starts to fall behind my schedule, it is okay, I have a year before we have to consider a different schooling method. Also because as a teacher it would give me bragging rights.:blushing: And, because she was able to complete MFW K before she turned 4 I assumed that it was my job to keep her progressing. A standstill was failure on my part as a teacher. I still struggle with that idea. Graduating and moving onto college at 16? A dream come true! I was certainly capable of it and would hate to waste my daughter's time on two more years of High School. You can go to college and still live at home; you can take correspondence courses. You can take two years for the ministry. There are many attractive options.

[MitchellMom]

I don't know your reasons for homeschooling, but one of my biggies is being able to teach my dc at their own pace and schedule. I could care less what the state of Ohio says are appropriate standards for my dd's. They will learn at an individual pace. The beauty of being HOMEschooled. If you were a teacher, then I can understand your struggle to "break" from the mold. As a school teacher did you always agree with the standards that your kids were supposed to learn in school? I know my ps teacher cousin does not.

 

It really seems as if you are set on teaching you dd whatever advice you hear here. I wonder if you've asked yourself "why" you want your 4.5 yo doing 1st grade math or any other heavy curriculum? Is it because she can? Is it because of these standards you are hearing? Is it because you are so excited about beginning homeschool? Is it because you want to say that your 4.5 yo is doing 1st grade work? Or some other reason. I ask because I had a dd who began school 8 weeks before she turned 5. She was smart. She tested out fine. She could do it. Now at 14, she is a very young 9th grader and she is scheduled to graduate at 17. I never would have thought of that at almost 5yo. I regret not giving her that extra year. Your dd has so many years of formal education ahead of her. Let her be a kid a little while longer.

 

To answer your question about why I am using Saxon 1, it's because she placed into it. :)

 

Charlotte Mason did not start school with a child before age six. Before that the focus was listening and habit formation (and the list of attainments for a child of six years old). In that context, teaching a child to listen the first time is a good thing. But you are trying to apply that method to schoolwork with a four year old child, which she would not have advocated.

 

Aside from that, my dd is enjoying school (she's a k'er) but it is all child led. I do not force her to do school at this age. And if either of us is getting frustrated it's time to back off. You've gotten lots of good advice from the ladies here, so take some time to evaluate your goals for your child.

 

Good point about the age...

 

I started my dd4 with Singapore Earlybird math. It's a K math curriculum, and it isn't super challenging for her. But I think that sometimes it's important, especially at this age, for kids to have something that is easy for them to do. It helps build their confidence, it's more fun, and for a 4 year old, it keeps them from giving up or starting to hate a subject. Even if your dd tested into the grade 1 curriculum, it might be a good idea to start with K for that reason. If it's really easy for her, she'll probably finish it quickly and then you can move on to grade 1. But at least she won't dread the work because she feels like she can't understand it, even if she *could* understand it with enough effort.

 

:grouphug: I think the most important thing at this age is to help your dd LOVE learning. If she loves to learn, your job will be much easier in the long run. I strive to make school so enjoyable for dd4 that when I tell her it's school time she comes running to the table, happy and excited. So make school relaxed and fun, give your dd things to do that excite her and build her confidence and wait on things that she's not really interested in yet. You still have a LOT of time before you need to worry about anything, if you need to worry at all. :001_smile:

 

Think about this: In public school, your dd would be one of 30 in a classroom, with very little one-on-one time with a teacher. The teacher wouldn't be able to teach specifically to her learning style. You have a HUGE advantage at home because you only have two students to split your time between and you know your children better than any public school teacher would. And you can teach your children so much more than how to do well on a standardized test.

 

And as for my siggy: We do those things daily, but if dd4 starts losing interest, we pack everything up for the day. ;)

 

This is great - but okay, I look at your siggy and see ETC 3 for your 4 year old and almost started to hyperventilate. My daughter is behind! the voice in my mind panics. My daughter is behind! My daughter is behind!

 

She chose Saxon, gave her the placement test, and she placed into it.

 

In the spirit of supporting the OP, I can answer for myself that my initial homeschooling goal was to keep DD at least one grade level ahead. Why? Because that gives me leeway, if she starts to fall behind my schedule, it is okay, I have a year before we have to consider a different schooling method. Also because as a teacher it would give me bragging rights.:blushing: And, because she was able to complete MFW K before she turned 4 I assumed that it was my job to keep her progressing. A standstill was failure on my part as a teacher. I still struggle with that idea. Graduating and moving onto college at 16? A dream come true! I was certainly capable of it and would hate to waste my daughter's time on two more years of High School. You can go to college and still live at home; you can take correspondence courses. You can take two years for the ministry. There are many attractive options.

 

EXACTLY! I love having leeway! Thank you for putting it into words - I didn't quite know myself how to say it, but you said it so simply and perfectly! Thank you!

[Angel]

I know she placed into their 1st grade curriculum. I guess I didn't express myself clearly. My question was, why would you WANT to have a 4.5 yo DOING a 1st grade curriculum? (sorry I can't make the italics work, I'm really not shouting:)) What is the reasoning behind that. Maybe my questions should have been what are the reasons behind starting your 4.5 year old in school? That might have made more sense.

 

I just wanted to clarify. Didn't want anyone to think that I wasn't paying attention to the other threads;)

[Amber in AUS]

In support of the OP, and no i have not read this in its entirety, some kids just need more at 4.5. My DD for example has been borderline ADD/ADHD since she hit about 2.5 because her brain wasn't being appropriately stimulated. Now we have started doing some formal homeschooling stuff she is VERY well behaved and performing well above her peer group, not showing any ADD/ADHD traits because of the stimulation. She is working on a Grade 1 level for some things too and reading at about a G2 level. I will continue to stimulate her at whatever level is required regardless of grade level. Here in AUS she should not have even started pre-kinder yet because her birthday is after the cut off. Not 'doing' anything with her would have been a disaster for her and me. I showed the same traits as a child too.

 

I do recognise that all kids are different!! My DS for example prob wont be ready for anything formal until he is 4 or 5, maybe even 6. That's OK too, all kids are different.

[Haiku]

I look at your siggy and see ETC 3 for your 4 year old and almost started to hyperventilate. My daughter is behind! the voice in my mind panics. My daughter is behind! My daughter is behind!

 

She's not behind. one of my kids is in ETC 3 and will move into 4 in (probably) February. One of my kids is in ETC 2 and will move into 2 1/2 in (probably) March. They are both six. One reads fluently, one is still working on it.

 

You seem to be putting an enormous amount of pressure on yourself. I'm not sure whether anything we have said has made you feel better, but you have a long time to work out how homeschooling best works for you and your kids. Don't worry what other people are doing, and don't worry about some arbitrary state measures your kid "should" meet. You'll find your groove ... just try to enjoy the ride.

 

Tara

[The Governess]

This is great - but okay, I look at your siggy and see ETC 3 for your 4 year old and almost started to hyperventilate. My daughter is behind! the voice in my mind panics. My daughter is behind! My daughter is behind!

 

Your dd is NOT behind! My dd4 was just a crazy early reader. She learned how to read a couple months after her third birthday. And trust me, it has NOTHING to do with my teaching abilities - she gets all the credit for dragging hooked on phonics out, day after day after day. Dd2 is a completely different child and she hasn't shown the slightest interest in letters yet. I don't expect her to be an early reader, and I'm not concerned about it at all. She'll get there when she's ready. That's the perk of homeschooling, right? Each child can learn at their own pace, in the way that suits them best.

[Lovedtodeath]

Notice my sig? We are using MUS and ETC. Which levels you ask? There is a reason I don't put them.:tongue_smilie:

[MitchellMom]

I know she placed into their 1st grade curriculum. I guess I didn't express myself clearly. My question was, why would you WANT to have a 4.5 yo DOING a 1st grade curriculum? (sorry I can't make the italics work, I'm really not shouting:)) What is the reasoning behind that. Maybe my questions should have been what are the reasons behind starting your 4.5 year old in school? That might have made more sense.

 

I just wanted to clarify. Didn't want anyone to think that I wasn't paying attention to the other threads;)

 

 

Thank you - I see what you mean now. This is the way I see it: My daughter was ready to learn to read, but my mom kept telling me, "Why would you want to teach her to read?! What's she going to learn when she gets to kindergarten? She'll already know everything and will be bored!" So, I listened to my mother and waited to teach my daughter things that she was ready to know. Then one day I thought, "Wait. This is not right. My daughter wants to read, she is showing all of the readiness signs, why should I let the state of NC tell me when to teach my daughter to read? It's not fair to make her wait!" So, I started teaching her, and it's been great. I look at all academics that way ... if my child is ready to learn something, I am being unfair to her not teaching it to her. I guess I looked at the math that way, too. If she is ready for Saxon 1 and I don't provide the information to her, it's not fair to her.

 

Does this make sense?... I hope so.

 

Of course, I am sadly aware that I am not being fair to her by fussing at her, either. That's why I started this thread!... :(

[kbpaulie]

... and almost started to hyperventilate. My daughter is behind! the voice in my mind panics. My daughter is behind! My daughter is behind!

 

I have a 6 and 3 year old. I was contemplating homeschooling when the first turned about 2. I started to get all the library books I could on the topic. Read them and re-read them. I am a stresser (still am!). I've often said that the devil loves homeschool moms because we doubt ourselves so much and stress looking for THE PERFECT THING and ANSWER. Love your little children, let them be children, and enjoy homeschooling w/o the stressing. They'll all arrive at what they've intended to be. And in the meantime, many of us (myself included) need to stop giving fodder to the devil.

 

KB

[Colleen in NS]

I look at all academics that way ... if my child is ready to learn something, I am being unfair to her not teaching it to her.

 

Of course, I am sadly aware that I am not being fair to her by fussing at her, either. That's why I started this thread!... :(

 

This makes sense to me now....you were doing just fine by giving her what you thought she was ready for and she was enjoying, then you heard a comment that got you worried about testing, which indirectly affected your reaction to a math lesson today, right? If so, then know that we all have days like that. You'll get things worked out as you go along.

[MitchellMom]

This makes sense to me now....you were doing just fine by giving her what you thought she was ready for and she was enjoying, then you heard a comment that got you worried about testing, which indirectly affected your reaction to a math lesson today, right? If so, then know that we all have days like that. You'll get things worked out as you go along.

 

 

Yes, that's exactly right!!!

[Mad Jenny Flint]

I've been hsing now for nearly 9 years... I have an 8th grader and a 4th grader. We've used WTM the whole way through elementary grades and I am just now starting to branch out into other things in planning high school courses for my son.

 

I was very similar to you in level of panic during the early years. I, too, thought of homeschooling as something I was born to do. I took it very seriously. I still do. However, as my children grow, I also realize how very quickly the time passes. One of the reasons I began educating my children at home was because I wanted to be around them more during their young years, and to savor that time.

 

Looking back on our schooling when my son was little, the thing I regret the most is not doing more projects. Not taking more nature walks. Not playing more games. We did those things, but we could have done more without any adverse academic consequences. Could we have done more academics? Probably, but strangely I don't regret not doing more of that.

 

Now that my son is entering high school and the level of work is ramping up, there just isn't as much time to spend doing the things I wish we had done more of. I am better at managing my time, they are better at managing theirs, and we still do some fun things together. It just takes more creative time management- we don't have hours and hours like we did when they were little.

 

I hope my ramblings are making sense. Unless your children have a major learning issue, they will be up to state standards. TRUST ME. And, if they have a major learning issue and cannot do grade level work when they are the age to do that grade level, you will notice the issue and get the help you need. You are a dedicated and invested parent. Trust that.

 

You'll be fine. But, please, do relax. You'll be amazed at how much your kids learn without you micromanaging all that learning.

 

Best wishes to you!

[MitchellMom]

I've been hsing now for nearly 9 years... I have an 8th grader and a 4th grader. We've used WTM the whole way through elementary grades and I am just now starting to branch out into other things in planning high school courses for my son.

 

I was very similar to you in level of panic during the early years. I, too, thought of homeschooling as something I was born to do. I took it very seriously. I still do. However, as my children grow, I also realize how very quickly the time passes. One of the reasons I began educating my children at home was because I wanted to be around them more during their young years, and to savor that time.

 

Looking back on our schooling when my son was little, the thing I regret the most is not doing more projects. Not taking more nature walks. Not playing more games. We did those things, but we could have done more without any adverse academic consequences. Could we have done more academics? Probably, but strangely I don't regret not doing more of that.

 

Now that my son is entering high school and the level of work is ramping up, there just isn't as much time to spend doing the things I wish we had done more of. I am better at managing my time, they are better at managing theirs, and we still do some fun things together. It just takes more creative time management- we don't have hours and hours like we did when they were little.

 

I hope my ramblings are making sense. Unless your children have a major learning issue, they will be up to state standards. TRUST ME. And, if they have a major learning issue and cannot do grade level work when they are the age to do that grade level, you will notice the issue and get the help you need. You are a dedicated and invested parent. Trust that.

 

You'll be fine. But, please, do relax. You'll be amazed at how much your kids learn without you micromanaging all that learning.

 

Best wishes to you!

 

 

Oh Jenny, you have really helped me put things in perspective! Like you, one of the main reasons I am homeschooling is that I don't want the years to fly by without me really knowing my children. I remember reading a book on homeschooling in which the author said she recalled seeing parents cheering after they dropped off their children at school on the first day - saying things like "I'm free!" and "Finally, I can live my life again!" This is heartbreaking to me - imagine how those children would feel if they knew their parents said those things. I don't want to be like that. I want to enjoy my children while they are young. But with this recent anxiety, I have not been. Thank you for reminding me what is most important. :)