S/O vaccination law suit

[City Mouse]

I haven’t seen that anyone as posted this yet. https://www.abqjournal.com/2438027/new-mexico-judge-denies-lab-workers-claim-in-vaccine-fight.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3sU4VGXnHCA8rinsiNZx-fZqZuYjJ36CZlMnSzzJr4KZKXR_PYwv_aXso#Echobox=1634334530
 

I have a friend who works at the lab who very reluctantly got vaccinated. She tried to get a medical exemption, but it was denied. She is a single parent who would lose custody of her youngest child if she lost her job, so she got vaccinated even though she did not want to do so.

[HomeAgain]

The lawsuit is a nothingness.  It has already been established that vaccine mandates are legal.  A medical exemption IS valid, but has to go through medical channels and is reasonable to expect under the ADA. If something will kill you or is known to cause significant harm due to a medical condition, the employer can be forced to recognize that.  If hers was not recognized, there's probably a reason for that.

[Spy Car]

26 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

I haven’t seen that anyone as posted this yet. https://www.abqjournal.com/2438027/new-mexico-judge-denies-lab-workers-claim-in-vaccine-fight.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3sU4VGXnHCA8rinsiNZx-fZqZuYjJ36CZlMnSzzJr4KZKXR_PYwv_aXso#Echobox=1634334530
 

I have a friend who works at the lab who very reluctantly got vaccinated. She tried to get a medical exemption, but it was denied. She is a single parent who would lose custody of her youngest child if she lost her job, so she got vaccinated even though she did not want to do so.

Good news to see the employment-based mandates are working.

And now she doesn't risk leaving her child orphaned.

Congratulations.

Bill

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

The lawsuit is a nothingness.  It has already been established that vaccine mandates are legal.  A medical exemption IS valid, but has to go through medical channels and is reasonable to expect under the ADA. If something will kill you or is known to cause significant harm due to a medical condition, the employer can be forced to recognize that.  If hers was not recognized, there's probably a reason for that.

Most (virtually all) medical issues that people wrongly believe are are causes not to be vaccinated are actually reasons to be vaccinated against Covid.

Covid often kills those with pre-existing conditions, where the vaccine is safe and effective.

Bill

Edited October 16, 2021 by Spy Car
typo

[SeaConquest]

11 hours ago, City Mouse said:

I haven’t seen that anyone as posted this yet. https://www.abqjournal.com/2438027/new-mexico-judge-denies-lab-workers-claim-in-vaccine-fight.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3sU4VGXnHCA8rinsiNZx-fZqZuYjJ36CZlMnSzzJr4KZKXR_PYwv_aXso#Echobox=1634334530
 

I have a friend who works at the lab who very reluctantly got vaccinated. She tried to get a medical exemption, but it was denied. She is a single parent who would lose custody of her youngest child if she lost her job, so she got vaccinated even though she did not want to do so.

There will be tons of lawsuits like these. Anyone can bring a lawsuit -- whether you have a legal basis for your claims is the issue. They didn't. They can appeal. They will likely lose again. You may see a smattering of successful suits in lower courts in those jurisdictions with activist judges who oppose the mandates for political reasons, which is ironic because Fed Soc principles expressly set forth that the role of the courts is to say what the law is and not what they wish it to be (another reason why judges should not hold elected positions). Hopefully, science, prudence, and legal precedent will prevail in the long-run. One would hope, but nothing shocks me anymore in this country.

https://fedsoc.org/about-us#FAQ

ETA: By way of background, I was co-President of the Fed Soc chapter at my law school, back in the day. Prior to 2016, I was a very active member of the Republican Party. I am no longer a registered Republican in CA.

Edited October 17, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Spryte]

40 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Most (virtually all) medical issues that people wrong believe are are causes not to be vaccinated are actually reasons to be vaccinated against Covid.

Covid often kills those with pre-existing conditions, where the vaccine is safe and effective.

Bill

Yep.

I truly thought that DS—and possibly I—would likely be unable to get a Covid shot due to medical and allergy reasons.  I was maybe 85% certain, based on past reactions to vaccines. We made special appointments with our immunologist of many years, and discussed it. Not only were we candidates, she felt it was terribly important for both of us. Such relief! I am so glad we spoke to her about it, early on.

OP, if your friend was unable to get a medical exemption from her doctor—it may be because the doctor, like mine, feels the benefits outweigh the risks. I have no idea about what her doctor may/may not have thought, but if she didn’t get the medical exemption and got the shot, it’s possible that her convo went the way ours did. Whatever the reason, she’s doing well? All good? No issues from the health conditions she feared would cause a problem? And now protected against severe disease. So that’s good. 

I wonder if seeking medical exemptions to avoid the vaccine will encourage more people to talk to their doctors, and get solid information based on their own medical history? It’s one thing to guess that you won’t be eligible, it’s another to hear it from your medical provider, and maybe some people who are fearful (like I was) will have the reassurance they need. Or, conversely, maybe they will get that medical exemption and know to be extra careful. Either way, talking to their doctor about it seems like a positive.

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Spryte said:

 

I wonder if seeking medical exemptions to avoid the vaccine will encourage more people to talk to their doctors, and get solid information based on their own medical history? It’s one thing to guess that you won’t be eligible, it’s another to hear it from your medical provider, and maybe some people who are fearful (like I was) will have the reassurance they need. Or, conversely, maybe they will get that medical exemption and know to be extra careful. Either way, talking to their doctor about it seems like a positive.

Oh, wow! That's a great point! 

[City Mouse]

I am actually happy about the mandates. My DH lost a close friend to Covid that probably wouldn’t have died had he been vaccinated. I do know that there are people on this forum who do not agree with the mandates, and this is the first legal ruling that I have come across.

My friend got a blood clot after her first vaccine dose which she took willing, and she had a stroke a few years ago after a flu vaccination along with other instances of blood clots. Her doctor was fine with giving her a medical exemption; however, her doctor had no say in the matter. She had to go through a review board at the lab who did not agree with her. The only medical exemption they would allow was if there had been a documented anaphylactic reaction to one of the ingredients in the vaccine. Yes, she survived her second does but it did cause some issues with her heart. I do think this particular person was stuck either way. Her medical issues could make it likely that she would have a severe case of Covid - possibly even death, but the vaccine could have also had extreme consequences - including stroke or death. I don’t think there was a “right” choice in this case because either choice could have had deadly consequences for her, but I understand her anger about having her right to choose taken away from her.

I think, but have no evidence or proof, that all the attention on the militant anti-vaccine rhetoric probably pushed the review board to hold the hard line on not allowing her medical exemption.

I do agree with how the lab is handling religious exemptions. People requesting religious emotions also have to go through the review board. If a religious exemption is approved,the person goes on unpaid leave until the pandemic is over.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There are some here who are getting exemptions.  But the work accommodation is that they can't work.  Because, hello, there is no safe way (for everyone ) for them to do their job without the vaccination.  So they're mad.  Some of them will probably file lawsuits too. . . .

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

There are some here who are getting exemptions.  But the work accommodation is that they can't work.  Because, hello, there is no safe way (for everyone ) for them to do their job without the vaccination.  So they're mad.  Some of them will probably file lawsuits too. . . .

So — Unpaid leave for the medical exemption, like in the case of religious exemptions above? I hadn’t heard of that, but it seems reasonable.

Even with a medical exemption, it’s not a free pass to potentially infect others (yes, vaccinated people can spread, too, but not as often). Like you said, everyone needs to be as safe as possible. 

I’m sure there will be more lawsuits. There’s just not a painless way to get through this time period.

 

[Loowit]

I don't think most people realize that even with an exemption to a vaccine, like for school, that if there is an outbreak the exempted person can be excluded until the outbreak is over.  This is something I had to think about with my youngest who can't have the pertussis vaccine when he was in pre-school at a private school.  This was around the time that pertussis was having outbreaks in our area.  He was never asked to stay home, but it was a possibility and I would not have been angry or fought it, but at the same time he wasn't our breadwinner either.

I am not a huge fan of mandates, but I can see the necessity.  But it is hard when it is contraindicated to get vaccinated due to a medical reason and that means you will lose your livelihood or take a risk getting the vaccine and hope for the best.  I have seen severe reactions to a vaccine that were life threatening, and it was very nerve wracking even with approval from both the allergist and pcp getting the shot for DS.

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, Loowit said:

I don't think most people realize that even with an exemption to a vaccine, like for school, that if there is an outbreak the exempted person can be excluded until the outbreak is over.  This is something I had to think about with my youngest who can't have the pertussis vaccine when he was in pre-school at a private school.  This was around the time that pertussis was having outbreaks in our area.  He was never asked to stay home, but it was a possibility and I would not have been angry or fought it, but at the same time he wasn't our breadwinner either.

I am not a huge fan of mandates, but I can see the necessity.  But it is hard when it is contraindicated to get vaccinated due to a medical reason and that means you will lose your livelihood or take a risk getting the vaccine and hope for the best.  I have seen severe reactions to a vaccine that were life threatening, and it was very nerve wracking even with approval from both the allergist and pcp getting the shot for DS.

Yep. My kids can't have the pertussis vax (they have had Td), and can't have the full MMR due to a reaction, and were told they'd have to leave school if there were an outbreak of any of those. This.is.not.new.information.

And... news flash... we ARE having an ongoing Covid outbreak.  My kids managed not to have to be sent home because there's something upwards of 95% vax coverage for all those, so no outbreaks, because... mandatory vaccination!

Edited October 17, 2021 by Matryoshka

[TexasProud]

8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yep. My kids can't have the pertussis vax (they have tD), and can't have the full MMR due to a reaction, and were told they'd have to leave school if there were an outbreak of any of those. This.is.not.new.information.

And... news flash... we ARE having an ongoing Covid outbreak.  My kids managed not to have to be sent home because there's something upwards of 95% vax coverage for all those, so no outbreaks, because... mandatory vaccination!

Yes, me and 2 of my children have had BAD reactions to the pertussis shot and are not to get them.

[PaxEtLux]

9 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

There will be tons of lawsuits like these.

 

I'm curious about your opinion about the prevalence or success of lawsuits in the other direction?  e.g. if someone tests positive for covid, and doesn't isolate, and spreads it to others, or causes business to shut down for a week for "cleaning", is there a case?  Assuming, we can prove exactly where the transmission came from, as the kiwis appear to be able to do. (More and more, I'm starting to believe that the New Zealanders are some kind of post-human, superior life form, and above the rest of us).

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

 

I'm curious about your opinion about the prevalence or success of lawsuits in the other direction?  e.g. if someone tests positive for covid, and doesn't isolate, and spreads it to others, or causes business to shut down for a week for "cleaning", is there a case?  Assuming, we can prove exactly where the transmission came from, as the kiwis appear to be able to do. (More and more, I'm starting to believe that the New Zealanders are some kind of post-human, superior life form, and above the rest of us).

Even if someone tests positive and goes somewhere where someone else gets it, it will be hard to prove that that person, and that person only, was the cause of the infection.  At least anywhere that isn't NZ. 

[PaxEtLux]

34 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Even if someone tests positive and goes somewhere where someone else gets it, it will be hard to prove that that person, and that person only, was the cause of the infection. 

For the sake of discussion, assume that we could prove the person was the source of infection.  In the case where we aren't talking about virus transmission, but just a business being shutdown for a few days because of potential exposure, I think it is always because of a well-known infected person.  If that person had tested positive before coming to the business, are they liable?  Will we see such lawsuits?

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, PaxEtLux said:

 

I'm curious about your opinion about the prevalence or success of lawsuits in the other direction?  e.g. if someone tests positive for covid, and doesn't isolate, and spreads it to others, or causes business to shut down for a week for "cleaning", is there a case?  Assuming, we can prove exactly where the transmission came from, as the kiwis appear to be able to do. (More and more, I'm starting to believe that the New Zealanders are some kind of post-human, superior life form, and above the rest of us).

Well, a couple of things. All of this hygiene theatre is ridiculous. Covid is an airborne virus. It is primarily spread by inhalation of small droplets and particles that contain the virus. Yes, washing one's hands and avoiding touching one's mucus membranes is good practice, but the risk of Covid spread from contact with fulmites (contaminated surfaces or objects) is extremely low. The CDC estimates that each contact with a contaminated surface has less than a 1 in 10,000 chance of causing an infection. So, a business does not need to shut down for a week for "cleaning." That is totally unnecessary.

And, at our current case rates in most places, it is indeed very difficult to do the kind of contract tracing that would be necessary to make a definitive causal statement re transmission, such that it is likely to meet a legal threshold for civil liability. But, that's in our present state of affairs. In addition, people are being asked to sign all sorts of releases of Covid liability wherever they go. I had to sign one just a few days ago when I went to get my hair done. I mean, they are everywhere in the U.S.

So, if I caught Covid at my hair salon, they could say that I signed a release of liability (aka I assumed the risk of getting my hair colored during a pandemic). Now, depending on the state, there are various laws governing whether those releases will actually hold up in court. You cannot typically sign away your rights to allow a business free reign to behave in a manner that is willfully negligent. So, again, depending on state law, the actions taken by the business, how well the release is drafted, and how good the attorneys are on both sides, those releases may/may not mean very much. It's complicated.

I know nothing about New Zealand law other than I am assuming that they are not as litigious as we are in the U.S. A lot of the mandates here are not driven solely by benevolent public health principles; they are, of course, driven by capitalism. Businesses don't want to get sued. And, as I've mentioned previously, a large corporation, particularly one that is in the business of healthcare, is going to have a hard time arguing in front of a jury why it is not following the standard of care in requiring its workforce to be vaccinated against a potentially fatal disease when there is a safe and effective, FDA-approved, vaccine available and a patient dies because he/she contracts Covid from a healthcare worker on the job. It's simply not going to fly. And businesses are going to get hit in the pocketbook eventually, so they are taking steps now to get rid of non-compliant employees preemptively.  

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by SeaConquest