Dog group - come in

[sheryl]

Shiloh turned 2 this past June.   Her annuals are in 2 weeks or so around Oct 8 or that week.  

I'm thinking I'd like a baseline of labs.  It will be maybe $150 or so for a workup but should we do this now or wait until this time next year when she is 3+?

Also, I'm stillllllllllll unsure about the whole food arguments.   Not whole as in whole foods just all of the different opinions re: food brand, although whole foods vs. kibble would certainly be in that mix too. 

Thoughts?  Thanks!

[Pawz4me]

I've never had baseline blood work done on a young dog just for the heck of it.

If there's any health issue -- yes, of course.

Before a spay/neuter, dental, or anything else that requires anesthesia--yes.

Once they get a little age on them--yes. For a Lab sized dog I'd think about starting around seven.

But obviously that's just me and my way of thinking.

It's not going to hurt anything other than your wallet, so absolutely have it done if you want to and especially if it will give you peace of mind.

[melmichigan]

I agree in that I have done bloodwork on a young dog only before anesthesia, or if there is a health issue.

As for dog food, I used to feed Orijen and Acana to our dogs thinking I was doing the best with a more expensive dog food. Their labels look so good!  All three tested for low taurine, with the oldest being a critical level (he is also part golden retriever), and all three had dietary DCM of various stages.  They were all switched to Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon under the recommendation of a cardiologist (they had a list of choices) and all three have recovered.  I have not messed with what is working but we do toppers and fresh meat/veggies based on what we are eating, you just have to limit it based on their total calories.

[Familia]

My vet has not suggested labs for baseline at any annual visit so far, and I never thought to get them.  Our Rosie is three.

We feed Victor Hi Protein dry dog food. Wanted the convenience of dry kibble.  The combination of best ratio of fat/pro/carb, along with good ingredients and reputation is why we chose Victor.  

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I have never had baseline blood work drawn for any of my dogs. It was something that wasn't in our budget and, honestly, never thought of. We've had plenty of blood work done for our current senior dog, though, beginning about three years ago. It is expensive. My current puppy (9 mos) had to have blood work a few weeks ago as he developed an allergy and was losing fur and weight. We now have a baseline for him as all blood work came back normal. We think he developed a case of poison ivy from hiking. Not too thrilled since I got him specifically to be a hiking companion.

If I had a show dog, or an expensive, rare breed, I would consider having baseline blood work done and kept on file. If I were that concerned, I would also buy pet insurance (which I haven't done but wonder about with the new puppy).

For food - it is so stinking confusing. We've always fed dry kibble. Not the cheapest but not the most expensive either. For my senior, he ate Iams for years and was fine. I switched him to Blue Buffalo a few years back (at the suggestion of a family member) and it just about killed him. The ratios were off for him and he developed liver issues and it was touch and go for awhile. He has since recovered but it was such a long process. He is now on Rachel Ray Nutrish Beef, Rice, and Bean with a canned Alpo topper. He also gets a hot dog (with his daily meds) and some cheese daily. It's been a lot of trial and error trying to find a dog food he would eat and I spent months making homemade dog food before finding a commercial cocktail that would work for him.

I'm having to go through a similar process for the puppy as he will not eat the same meal as the senior dog. I throw away more food than is consumed for him. I just want him to be healthy and have normal poops.  The mix-new-with-old-while-switching is a pain as I never know which food he will eat but I need to feed him each brand for a while in order to determine if he'll eat it.

Feeding dogs shouldn't be this difficult. I think if we, as dog owners, can find an affordable food the dog will eat to remain happy and healthy, that's the best we can hope for. We shouldn't have to worry about spending $100s of dollars a month on dog food, toppers, supplements, treats, etc.

I actually had a pet store employee try to sell me a canine feeding system - dry kibble, bagged topper, canned moist, liquid gravy, and skin supplement powder. If the dog needs all of those extras, why aren't they in the kibble already? It would take a mathematical genius to determine how much to feed the dog. 3 cups of kibble a day unless you add the toppers, then it's 2 3/4 cup kibble and one bag of topper divided for the two meals, unless you use the kibble, canned, and a topper, than it's 1 1/2 cup kibble, one can moist food, one bag of topper all divided over two meals for the day, unless you also add the gravy. Wait, no. The gravy doesn't add calories just makes the food more easily digestible. Wait, no; it does add calories so decrease the kibble by another 1/8 cup per meal. Also, are you giving training treats? If so, you have to calculate those calories and subtract those from his daily caloric allotment. Each treat is 3 cals, so if you feed 30 treats that's 90 cals so decrease his kibble by another 1/8 cup. That will be $247.98 for the month. Unless you also add the skin and coat supplement which is $42.99. You sprinkle that on the moist food but it doesn't add calories so you don't need to adjust the kibble.

Here, pooch, have a Milkbone while I sip my wine.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Granny_Weatherwax

[Selkie]

I'm in agreement with others who have already posted - I only get bloodwork done for young dogs before surgery, if they are having symptoms that warrant further investigation, or if they are on medication that requires monitoring of their liver values or something like that. Otherwise, only my senior dogs get routine bloodwork done every year.

[Lori D.]

No blood work here for any of our dogs, until our current dog developed symptoms of Valley Fever (at about 2.5yo). She is 5.5yo now, and still gets blood work to check her titer for the Valley Fever once every 3 months. That will probably be for the rest of her life, even if she can get off of the meds.

Because Valley Fever is so damaging to dogs, you absolutely need to jump on the Valley Fever immediately if it starts to flare again, and the only way to verify that the Valley Fever is flaring is to get those regular titer checks, or wait until your dog is limping or coughing or having other symptoms of the horrible damage that Valley Fever is doing to them.

For food, we've always gone with straight kibble (current dog is eating Natural Balance lamb & rice). That all-dry kibble diet has worked well for all 3 of the dogs we have had over the years. Our first dog was a big 85-lb. lab-shepherd mix who lived to 14.5yo with no health issues ever. Our second dog was a 65-lb Flat Coat Retriever who lived to be over 13yo -- 3 years over the average for that breed, which is prone to cancer.

Current dog gets the dry kibble +  daily supplement of Desert Defense powder to boost her immune system in fighting the Valley Fever + Kelp Powder to reduce tartar build-up on her teeth. We swirl it all together with a few tablespoons of water to make it easier to eat/digest.

Other posters will have other experiences.


ETA
We are part of the local puppy raising group for Guide Dogs for the Blind. They require a kibble-only diet for the dogs (except in case of a health issue), because the dogs train/work for part of their meal each day, and you can't carry wet or raw food around in a pouch for training or on outings to use as reward. 😉 GDB did recommend Natural Balance, and is currently recommending Eukanuba for puppy raisers to use as they raise the puppies. I believe Eukanuba is what GDB uses on their campus when the young adult dogs are returned for their official guide training.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Lori D.

[rebcoola]

Agreed we don't do bloodwork for a baseline.   We use Purina kibble topped with a little fresh pet.  

[sheryl]

OK, thanks!  IDK, I think I'd like a baseline earlier than 8 years.   Maybe wait a year or two.  Shi's been drinking more water and maybe that's raising my eyebrows too.   

She was switched from Royal Canin to Purina Pro Plan Focus.  I need to learn more about the Purina line as I understand it's decent for the money.    Have always been interested in Fromm and Victor since others recommended on Shi's first thread.  

And, would like to incorporate fresh in to her diet somehow.

[Lori D.]

23 minutes ago, sheryl said:

...  Purina Pro Plan Focus.  I need to learn more about the Purina line as I understand it's decent for the money...
... And, would like to incorporate fresh in to her diet somehow.

FWIW, Purina Pro Plan or the Eukanuba is what Guide Dogs for the Blind is currently recommending for all of the dogs in their program. They do tend to keep up on the research, so I would assume that their choice for the dogs in their program would be pretty good.

re: fresh
What about a daily treat of a piece of carrot, sweet potato, or other crunchy vegetable that is good for dogs? I would hesitate to add daily fresh if you mean egg/meat/fish/chicken, as I have heard more than once of people who had to switch their dog to a chicken & rice diet for awhile due to health issues, and had a horrible time getting the dog to accept kibble again later... That would be NO fun if the dog decided that it only wanted that "fresh" and wouldn't eat kibble... Just a thought. 😉 

[sheryl]

14 hours ago, Lori D. said:

FWIW, Purina Pro Plan or the Eukanuba is what Guide Dogs for the Blind is currently recommending for all of the dogs in their program. They do tend to keep up on the research, so I would assume that their choice for the dogs in their program would be pretty good.

re: fresh
What about a daily treat of a piece of carrot, sweet potato, or other crunchy vegetable that is good for dogs? I would hesitate to add daily fresh if you mean egg/meat/fish/chicken, as I have heard more than once of people who had to switch their dog to a chicken & rice diet for awhile due to health issues, and had a horrible time getting the dog to accept kibble again later... That would be NO fun if the dog decided that it only wanted that "fresh" and wouldn't eat kibble... Just a thought. 😉 

Lori, Thanks.  We do use PPP Focus.   Sooo, we used to give our first 2 labs table treats.   Even though they were small pieces  it turned them in to begging.  As I typed that I "just" realized I can incorporate a healthy snack when we are not seated at table for dinnertime but use it as a reward treat.    I'm working a great deal with her outside to follow commands (she's coming along nicely) 🙂 and hopefully it will not turn her in towards begging.   I do give her boiled chicken (Bill's idea) as a hvt.  So, keep the chicken and rotate with carrot, sweet potato.  What about greens?  Do you have a list of 10 or a link that would give 10 of those foods - different colored.   Veggies, fruits?

[Idalou]

Our dogs like carrots, roasted or raw. They love blueberries and chopped up cranberries. They especially love sweet mini red peppers. I do not give them any leafy greens because I worry they'll start experimentally  nibbling my houseplants. 

[Pawz4me]

37 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Lori, Thanks.  We do use PPP Focus.   Sooo, we used to give our first 2 labs table treats.   Even though they were small pieces  it turned them in to begging.  As I typed that I "just" realized I can incorporate a healthy snack when we are not seated at table for dinnertime but use it as a reward treat.    I'm working a great deal with her outside to follow commands (she's coming along nicely) 🙂 and hopefully it will not turn her in towards begging.   I do give her boiled chicken (Bill's idea) as a hvt.  So, keep the chicken and rotate with carrot, sweet potato.  What about greens?  Do you have a list of 10 or a link that would give 10 of those foods - different colored.   Veggies, fruits?

Yes, there is a huge difference in giving your dog a bit of healthy people food and feeding them from the table. Those are in no way the same thing.

Perhaps I've had weird dogs, but most of them have thoroughly loved green beans, green peas, any color bell pepper, cucumbers, turnip/collard greens, carrots, apples, melons, berries. Also consider small amounts of red meat, plain yogurt and healthy fish. Canned mackeral is inexpensive and has always been a huge hit with my dogs.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I have given canned pumpkin, mackeral, blueberries, carrots, peanut butter (be careful of the sweetener), and dehydrated chicken livers (they love these as hvt).

[Selkie]

My dogs get carrots, green beans, blueberries, and roasted squash every day. They also love apples, bell peppers, cucumbers, corn, peas (especially sugar snap peas), watermelon, kiwi, mango, broccoli, zucchini...probably more, but that's all I can think of for now.

[cjzimmer1]

Based on what mine regularly help themselves to from the garden, I know mine like raspberries, tomatoes, peppers, and zucchini. But they are super gentle about it and are truly only picking/eating ripe items without destroying the plant.  I totally get a kick out of watching them. I know they have eaten pears and apples that have been dropped on the floor.  I'm sure my youngest has fed them other stuff as well but I'm not always aware of what he's "sharing".

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Lori, Thanks.  We do use PPP Focus.   Sooo, we used to give our first 2 labs table treats.   Even though they were small pieces  it turned them in to begging.  As I typed that I "just" realized I can incorporate a healthy snack when we are not seated at table for dinnertime but use it as a reward treat.    I'm working a great deal with her outside to follow commands (she's coming along nicely) 🙂 and hopefully it will not turn her in towards begging.   I do give her boiled chicken (Bill's idea) as a hvt.  So, keep the chicken and rotate with carrot, sweet potato.  What about greens?  Do you have a list of 10 or a link that would give 10 of those foods - different colored.   Veggies, fruits?

Yes that is what I meant -- as reward treats. Gah! NEVER from the table or the counter! Guide Dogs only allows special treats out of the dog bowl (and then the rewarding for training/behavior out of the kibble pouch you wear around your waist), so never begging from the table or counter.

Veggies we have found to be safe for dogs and that they like: carrots, green beans, broccoli stems, cabbage (the crunchy part next to the core especially nice), and sweet potato. Bits of crunchy apple worked well as a fruit. On the other hand, peas and corn did not do well for one of our dogs.

These are toxic to dogs:
- grapes / raisins / currants = kidney damage (possibly from the tannin??)
- onion / chive / garlic = damages blood cells, causes low iron, can damage kidneys
- persimmons = seeds cause inflation of the small intestine
- peaches / nectarines / plums / apricots / cherries = the pits contain cyanide, poisonous for dogs & humans
- mushrooms = wild mushrooms are potentially lethal to dogs & humans
- rhubarb = causes problems with the nervous system, digestive tract, and kidneys

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[sheryl]

Thanks everyone!  I love these ideas.   I knew about canned pumpkin but "think" there is a daily max on that.  Well, there would be for anything though.  🙂 I gave Shi a command to stay while I went upstairs.   Made her "wait" for only a while as she's having trouble with stay.  But, I called her up - she was successful - so I gave her 2 fresh blueberries.   The "skin" is ok?  So, it must "not" be the grape skin that's bad for dogs but the actual characteristics of the grape itself?

[Pawz4me]

Blueberries and grapes are totally different fruits. There's nothing to compare.

Blueberries are fine for dogs. Grapes are not.

[MercyA]

Our dogs are family members and we don't mind spending money on necessary medical care, but I don't think we've ever done bloodwork on a young dog without a reason. 

Re: food. Someone on this forum recommended this excellent website a couple years back: https://dcmdogfood.com/. Based on the information there, I chose to switch my dog to Purina Pro-Plan Small Breed and she does beautifully on it.