Please don't stone me! (fast vs deep)

[4KookieKids]

Disclaimer: I think I understand all the reasons for going deep and wide with an AL, rather than further accelerating a kid who is capable. I love school and would happily go down every rabbit hole that we find and get all my kids involved with research projects that lead to grad school eventually, because it was just about the best time of my life. 🙂 So no need to convince me that these things have merit!

But I'm wondering: has anyone here had an AL who just wasn't into academics and was more interested in something blue collar? I'm trying to weigh out our options for continuing going deep/wide/down rabbit holes vs more of a HS4CC sort of track where we just aim to get a college degree "done" via dual credit and other homeschooling options so they can pursue other interest at 18.

My thinking is:
1) I'd like my kiddos to have at least a bachelors -- if they go for a career change or further education down the road, I know often having an accredited degree (in any field) can get your foot in the door in many places.
2) Some of the more hands-on blue collar jobs that one of my kiddos has been talking about have minimum ages of 18 (welding, massage school, etc.), anyway, so we can't really start those early to get experience (outside of finding an apprenticeship).

FWIW - most of my kids are 2E (dyslexic, autistic, adhd, dysgraphic). They just prefer to work with their hands over academic pursuits and I'd like to set them up for future success and not try to fit them into a box that they are ABLE to do, but won't necessarily help them thrive. (I know they're still kids and can change their minds, of course, because they're fickle... lol. But they've been pretty consistent for several years.)

[Lecka]

What I would say is -- how old is the child?  

My oldest son was very interested in carpentry.  

Basically -- he got older.  He worked more (vs doing what he wanted as more of a hobby).  He worked outdoors and felt hot.

He learned more about wages and more about jobs -- running a small business type of things.  

Anyway -- he plans to go to college now and wants to have woodworking as a hobby.  

This is a better fit for him as he has gotten older.  

I know this is not what happens with everyone, but I am sharing, because my son was very interested and wasn't interested in academics as much -- that changed as he got older and more interested in academics.  

[4KookieKids]

5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

What I would say is -- how old is the child?  

My oldest son was very interested in carpentry.  

Basically -- he got older.  He worked more (vs doing what he wanted as more of a hobby).  He worked outdoors and felt hot.

He learned more about wages and more about jobs -- running a small business type of things.  

Anyway -- he plans to go to college now and wants to have woodworking as a hobby.  

This is a better fit for him as he has gotten older.  

I know this is not what happens with everyone, but I am sharing, because my son was very interested and wasn't interested in academics as much -- that changed as he got older and more interested in academics.  

Child is a young teen - so still lots of time to change his mind. To be clear, I'm not hoping to quit academics altogether; I'm just wondering about letting said child do academics at their own pace and desired depth, e.g., quitting the AoPS math track that he's on and letting him do "normal" college math courses (for credit) to satisfy degree requirements with an intended BA or BS in mind.

[Lecka]

I feel like at this age — a parent sets a minimum (that is appropriate for the child) and then the child can get into making a lot of choices.

Where choices are between things that are truly acceptable.

I think as a parent you decide what you think is acceptable and then from there you can let it be a choice.

I think you are the one who needs to think that doing one thing or another is okay for math.

If you think you do have a perspective that he should do the choice you consider better, and the alternative is not acceptable, I think that is fine.

If you think it’s not preferred but is acceptable — I think it’s acceptable.

I think there is so much room for a child to try one thing or another and then realize it is working, or realize it’s not.  And then you can see that, too.

If you try one and realize it’s a lower quality or not engaging, you can change from that, too.
 

I think too sometimes kids don’t realize they want a higher level until they try a lower level and do find it boring or not engaging.  I have seen that with my son.  He also has to see things for himself and make his own choices to be engaged, it can’t just be what I tell him.   

[Dmmetler]

The big thing to consider is any classes/coursework that requires practicals. Far more "direct to work" AS and BS programs have such, and those often have age limits. It is generally going to be easier to do a path that includes graduate school early than one that ends in professional licensure early. Vocational classes are often even more limited. 

 

 

 

[4KookieKids]

10 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The big thing to consider is any classes/coursework that requires practicals. Far more "direct to work" AS and BS programs have such, and those often have age limits. It is generally going to be easier to do a path that includes graduate school early than one that ends in professional licensure early. Vocational classes are often even more limited. 

 

 

 

Great thoughts to consider. Thank you!

[Arcadia]

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Edited March 24, 2022 by Arcadia

[Jackie]

My kid is younger, but we have done a real mix in our homeschooling - deep and wide where her interests lie, and a more minimal approach elsewhere. I generally say she is an academic kid, and that is true, but it’s definitely not across the board. She all but refuses to do any formal study of history. She mostly doesn’t want to write. She has a love/hate relationship with math. She loves all things science, but not really formal classes. She loves words, so she will happily learn some words for a spelling bee and throw herself into learning word roots.

I think wide is great. Because she learns quickly, she has time to explore a lot of subjects (both academic and not) in the time she doesn’t need to spend on academics. I think deep is great. She has a much better understanding of many subjects than I do. I also think fast is great. We do just enough on subjects she isn’t interested in and move on. 

[Rosie_0801]

Last time I went to the dentist, I asked her whether she liked being one and why, and she said she did because she liked the hands on work. She said she'd been one of those kids who carried a tool box around pretty much as soon as she could lift one. So, there's one hands on but still college degreed career.

[Dmmetler]

Musical instrument technician (piano tuners/techs, luthiers, wind techs, percussion techs, and also instrument building, particularly for strings) is another nice hands on option, if anyone has kids who love music, have a great ear, AND are very mechanically inclined and good with their hands. I have a friend who is a professional luthier and makes custom guitars. He probably builds 2-3 a year (plus repair and modification work) and just those 2-3 guitars exceeds what I made when I was teaching full time. 

[Not_a_Number]

I would personally make sure not to make decisions that would make them less likely to go to a good college. I don't think young teens are quite able to decide what they want -- frankly, neither can older teens, because as an older teen I was adamant I wanted to be a math professor. Adamant. I didn't even want to TALK about anything else. 

As it turns out, it's a good idea to actually try a job for a while before you decide you want to do it 😉 . 

We also have a friend who was absolutely sure he wanted to be a chef. He was at an Ivy League school studying a science, but he didn't like it (and he hated the writing he had to do.) He finished his degree, but also worked summers in restaurants, and eventually he had a career as a chef for something like 20 years. This story doesn't have a happy ending, though... eventually, he got super tired and burned out, and having a demanding and physical career with unpredictable hours wasn't a good thing for him or his family. He quit and was totally at loose ends, and has now started teaching high school science, because that was something he didn't have to train too much for. 

Anyway, my personal opinion is that it's a good idea to both take into account what your kid likes and also the things you know about the world that your kid probably does not. 

[Clarita]

Engineering degrees (at least mechanical and electrical in my experience) can lead to very hands on jobs. For electrical engineering I went through all of applied Calculus in college and only had to do an introductory course in the more esoteric math (number theory, set theory , etc.), for the record I did not like that class. You can get a job and career with a bachelor's degree. Another "perk" is that you can continue to move up the ladder and still be hands on, most companies have a technical and a management path with similar compensation (until VP/CEO levels).

It could be some fields to think about that satisfy your kid's interest in hands on work and yours of motivating them to get a college degree.   

[Jackie]

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would personally make sure not to make decisions that would make them less likely to go to a good college. I don't think young teens are quite able to decide what they want -- frankly, neither can older teens, because as an older teen I was adamant I wanted to be a math professor. Adamant. I didn't even want to TALK about anything else. 

As it turns out, it's a good idea to actually try a job for a while before you decide you want to do it 😉 . 

We also have a friend who was absolutely sure he wanted to be a chef. He was at an Ivy League school studying a science, but he didn't like it (and he hated the writing he had to do.) He finished his degree, but also worked summers in restaurants, and eventually he had a career as a chef for something like 20 years. This story doesn't have a happy ending, though... eventually, he got super tired and burned out, and having a demanding and physical career with unpredictable hours wasn't a good thing for him or his family. He quit and was totally at loose ends, and has now started teaching high school science, because that was something he didn't have to train too much for. 

Anyway, my personal opinion is that it's a good idea to both take into account what your kid likes and also the things you know about the world that your kid probably does not. 

I feel like we need to rethink “happy endings”. (And, wow, is that a dirty term.) I went into college with one dream job. I realized that one might not work out for me and pivoted. I worked in the newly chosen field for about 15 years and then quit due to a combination of burnout and needing more time as a parent. However, that is not an un-success story. 15 years in a high burnout field is super amazing; I did a lot of good and it was incredibly satisfying. If anyone out there is pointing to my leaving the field as a sign of failure, I will entirely throw an epic fit. 

I’m still not sure what I want to be when my child grows up and I’m free to work full time again. That’s fine. I have time, and so does my kid.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Jackie said:

I feel like we need to rethink “happy endings”. (And, wow, is that a dirty term.) I went into college with one dream job. I realized that one might not work out for me and pivoted. I worked in the newly chosen field for about 15 years and then quit due to a combination of burnout and needing more time as a parent. However, that is not an un-success story. 15 years in a high burnout field is super amazing; I did a lot of good and it was incredibly satisfying. If anyone out there is pointing to my leaving the field as a sign of failure, I will entirely throw an epic fit. 

I’m still not sure what I want to be when my child grows up and I’m free to work full time again. That’s fine. I have time, and so does my kid.

Well, maybe you had a better experience than he did. He had many years in which he didn’t get enough time with his family and was frustrated by the low pay.

Did he enjoy the job? Yeah, he did. Is it clear to me that he couldn’t found a different job with a better work-life balance that he also made him happy? No.

[Clemsondana]

I lean towards working in the direction of their goals while trying not to shut too many doors.  As an extreme example, don't skip the algebra-geometry-algebra 2 series because you want to be a musician or dancer - that would make it a struggle to catch up in math if you changed direction and wanted to attend college in the future.  But, if a student decided to focus their non-core class hours on vo-tech training or take the minimum number of credits required to graduate so that they could spend their time working, that wouldn't eliminate the possibility of going to college later.  They wouldn't be in a great position to go to a competitive school, necessarily, but they'd be fine for a CC-transfer path, so they would still have options available.  

I also tend to think that, while keeping an eye on the future is good, it's not possible to plan for everything that might happen.  Many advocate the 'focus on your career when you're young, and then look for work-life balance once you have kids', for instance...but some people marry younger and have kids younger, and others hope to have kids but never do, and others decide that they don't like the work that a particular job becomes as they move up the ranks so they change fields completely, and sometimes new types of jobs appear that didn't exist while you were planning.  We know a lot of people with jobs that involve coaching/teaching kids, and one thing that I hadn't considered is that those jobs have people working almost exclusively when their kids are not in school - kid instruction all happens after school.  This might actually be a great gig for homeschoolers - teach your kids by day, do your work in the afternoon/evening while kid participates or does their own activities or while teen babysitters and playdates are freely available.  But, it's rough on families of kids in school even though the parents are available to do school-time stuff like supervise field trips.  But, the sheer number of homeschoolers has, over the past 5 years, opened up all sorts of opportunities to do lessons or classes during the day - our violin teacher only has a handful of after-school lessons these days but teaches a lot of homeschoolers while her kids are at school.  

We are a 2-PhD household, but I've told my kids that I don't particularly care whether they earn advanced degrees, or possibly even college degrees. What I care about is that they have a plan, and while they are still in school that they learn enough to be able to choose between plans if they change their mind.  One of my kids is definitely the academic sort - they only way that kid wouldn't get at least a college degree, if not more advanced degrees, is if they take an interest in some tech field and get good enough to get hired without the credential.  My other kid...also very smart, but I can imagine that kid taking a different path.  Some things that they might want to do don't require a 4-year degree.  If they decided to open...say, a cake-decorating business...I'd want them to do the food safety classes and a few business classes at the community college, but I wouldn't push a 4-year degree.  I would be encouraging them to spend their high school years still doing regular academic classes and spending their spare time taking cake-decorating classes, donating decorated cakes to church functions, maybe shelters or soup kitchens, or friends' parties - anything to have them doing the work often enough to have a feel for what it would be like to do that job day in and day out.  I actually don't have a problem with families who say 'get your degree first, then do what you want', but for some kids that's just not the best path forward - accumulating debt and then not graduating is a bigger problem than starting later if you decide that you need a degree.  

[Sarah0000]

Our plan is to do the minimum to pursue any career/life choice, including four year degree. If that's an "easy" college or major, so be it.

However, I will require them to try a deeper/broader course before writing things off completely. One semester of something they end up hating is not the end of the world. It's important to try new things, in my opinion, then decide what fits you best.

[kbutton]

On 9/18/2021 at 10:40 AM, Clemsondana said:

I lean towards working in the direction of their goals while trying not to shut too many doors.  As an extreme example, don't skip the algebra-geometry-algebra 2 series because you want to be a musician or dancer - that would make it a struggle to catch up in math if you changed direction and wanted to attend college in the future.  But, if a student decided to focus their non-core class hours on vo-tech training or take the minimum number of credits required to graduate so that they could spend their time working, that wouldn't eliminate the possibility of going to college later.  They wouldn't be in a great position to go to a competitive school, necessarily, but they'd be fine for a CC-transfer path, so they would still have options available.  

This is what we're doing with my older 2e kid. He's now 17, homeschooling at home part-time, and taking vocational classes at the local vocational high school. He's very happy, and truly, they need smart people in the trades too. He started the vocational school late due to Covid, so he might be trying a DE class next year, but we'll see. His math has been through Algebra II, and he's doing stats this year. His one AOPS course was Geometry.

He's thriving. His vocational teachers love him. He's showing leadership in his classes--he finishes early, does special projects, and helps the other students.

Originally, he thought he would be a mechanic, but after learning from the vo-tech open house that everything is moving to computer diagnostics and more high tech cars, he totally lost interest. He'd always liked building things, so he settled on that with zero regrets about cars (and still watches his car shows and would love to work on older cars for a hobby). 

The local vocational school has people who can do aptitude and interest-based testing to see what might be a good fit, and they have days you can visit with and without parents. 

He'll graduate with internationally recognized credentials in the industry, a bare bones college prep transcript, and an ACT score that could yield some small scholarships (one try--he would do better if he prepped more for science, I think).