Home school "advice"/"standards"

[Clemsondana]

@8filltheheartYeah, I've run into some umbrella oddness both as a parent and as a teacher assigning grades.  Usually the problems that I had were due to the school's rules, which don't always fit with homeschoolers, although there are some oddities with homeschool coordinators, too.  We've submitted a list of high school courses taken early and haven't had a problem, but we're not counting them towards credits, and maybe the rules have changed.  But, The Farm School and Homelife are 2 common ones here.  There are a lot more umbrellas than there used to be, so most people can find one that suits their needs, and if not they put up with the 3 grades of testing and register with their county.  

[SDMomof3]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I had no idea. What happened, do you know?

I heard from our AoPS academy director that the UC wanted “certified” teachers, with teaching licenses for a-g approved classes. Which is sad because most AoPS teachers have PhD and are more qualified than most certified high school teacher. 

[Clemsondana]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

To be fair, you’d have to compare to other students with similar backgrounds. The national average is basically a disgrace.

Sure...I was just commenting on concerns that homeschool kids were behind.  They may be behind where that student could be, or behind where they'd be if they went to a good school, but it might be hard to say that they are, on average, doing worse than public school students.  If this is accurate, mandatory testing isn't likely to catch much.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I heard from our AoPS academy director that the UC wanted “certified” teachers, with teaching licenses for a-g approved classes. Which is sad because most AoPS teachers have PhD and are more qualified than most certified high school teacher. 

Although to be fair, teacher quality varies wiiiiidely. Not that it doesn’t in schools....

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

Sure...I was just commenting on concerns that homeschool kids were behind.  They may be behind where that student could be, or behind where they'd be if they went to a good school, but it might be hard to say that they are, on average, doing worse than public school students.  If this is accurate, mandatory testing isn't likely to catch much.  

It’d be information. I’d personally definitely want to compare to comparable students and I’d be very curious about what happens!

[lewelma]

In NZ they regulate upfront but not during homeschooling. You must get permission to homeschool here, but there are no tests/portfolios/etc. To get an exemption from school, you need to answer about 10 questions in detail - what is your philosophy? How will you cover the 7 core learning areas (they are not interested in curriculum)? How will you use city wide resources in your program (zoo, rock climbing, tours, etc)? You must lay out an example of a unit you will teach (this is the biggest question). How will you assess your child (this does not have to be testing)? What time table will you use (unschoolers can do a weekly composite)? How will you socialize your kid?  etc.  It takes about 6-10 pages double spaced to answer the questions. It must be done for *every* kid when they turn 6, or whenever you pull them out. They are interested in making sure you can *teach* not that you can pick curriculum. The ministry of education has a special department that evaluates the applications, and more than half of parents are asked for more information/detail.  And about a 10% have to really fight to get their homeschool exemption because they are digging their heals in (like refusing to teach math, or ignoring special needs, refusing any routines at all, etc).

Once you get the exemption, you must follow the law, which requires you to teach your children "as regularly and as well" as a public school. That is the full extent of the Legal wording for homeschooling. "As regularly" means you can squeeze 9 months of content into 2 months, so you need to space your program out over the year. And 'as well as' has been interpreted to mean that you must cover the 7 learning areas every year - math, science, social studies, english, art/music/drama, technology, and PE. But unschooling is allowed as long as you can answer the above questions to their satisfaction. There are no regulations after you get your exemption except following the law, and you can get a review if someone complains (which does happen but is rare). 

Because we have a national medical record number, they know who has had birthed a baby (even homebirths because the midwives are registered), so either your kid is registered in school or you have an exemption. You can't fly under the radar here. 

What I like about this approach is that everyone who homeschools is required to *think* about their program in enough detail to make it a worthy exercise.  Clearly, if you apply for a 6 year old, you won't be using that program when you are 16. The purpose is to identify people who are serious, and people who (even with help) are smart enough that they can think and write and answer these types of questions. It also means that all homeschoolers are on the same page when we meet up. Even if you are an unschooler, you still know and recognize that the 7 learning areas are required. Even if you are a lazy homeschooler, you have had to research what was available in your city as resources (museums, zoo, etc) and all the social activities your kid could be a part of.  Sure there are people who end up being bad homeschoolers, but they are defensive, and other homeschoolers (even unschoolers) will hold them to a bar.

I know it couldn't work in the USA, but it works here. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It’d be information. I’d personally definitely want to compare to comparable students and I’d be very curious about what happens!

So you want them collecting data on students and parental income. How about race, parental educational background, parental careers? How about ECs, tutoring, outsourcing? How much data are they going to want for categorizing comparable students?

No thank you.  I want zero intrusion.  I provide only the info required by law. 

Eta: I tell my kids to skip all the data mining questions with College Board when registering for the SAT, too.

Edited April 12, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

@Clemsondana I was happy to move from TN befor one of our kids' graduated or her diploma would have read The Farm School.  I had orginally registered with a different umbrella, but I was assigned to a brand new "counselor" who knew basically nothing and who tried to tell me that Foersters alg 1 in 8th grade could not be labeled honors and that the only courses that were permitted honors designation were AP or DE courses.  I tried to communicate with the umbrella asking how it was that private and ps students had honors courses and AP/DE were different designations.  Originally the only response I received was that the exact same line.  I withdrew my kids from that umbrella and registered with TFS bc they didn't want to control my courses or designations.  After I withdrew my kids, I was contacted by someone who said the looked at my records (I had been registered with that umbrella over 2 decades prior when they had first started.)  She apologized profusely and said that they would allow me to label my courses honors if I wanted to re-enroll but that they had established that rule bc they had so many homeschoolers wanting to label courses like Lifepacs honors.

TLDR--Even umbrellas can be lazy, not pay attention to submitted materials, have poorly thought-through policies, and poor quality control.  (I am also glad I didn't live there when our gifted kids were in elementary/middle school bc they also have a limit on the number of high school courses that can be completed prior to high school.  It would have been another hoop to deal with and fight over.

I learned that with our umbrella, it was better to not ask, but tell, and I've done basically whatever I wanted, with the awareness that, in TN, with my degree and teaching license I could literally set up my OWN legal cover school any time I wanted to do the paperwork-and that I knew more than they do. And I've never had them come by and question anything, probably because I also have had test scores and college transcripts sent to them. So honors high school classes in middle school? Approved. College classes in middle school? Approved. Early graduation? Approved (Actually approved a year before I wanted it, so I walked that one back). Etc.  But, I also suspect that there is a flag on my kid's file similar to the "will bite" tag my cat has at the vet, and that there might well be a minor party when they can finally close out the file. 

 

Ironically, my kid ended up choosing a LAC that primarily accepts students based on their essays and personal interviews, and considers transcripts, test scores, and pretty much everything else  secondary (they also grant placement/credit based only on their OWN tests and evaluations, not based on AP, IB, etc)-and which told us, a year before application, that as far as they were concerned, kids from TN cover schools are homeschoolers, so apply accordingly-they would rather get the information from the parent than through a third party. 

[Roadrunner]

I want to know the data, but I don’t want to give it either. I see the problem. 😋

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I want to know the data, but I don’t want to give it either. I see the problem. 😋

Oh, definitely. 

What I tend to think is best in a society-wide context isn't what I want myself, either 😉 . 

[ieta_cassiopeia]

On 4/11/2021 at 8:57 PM, kristin0713 said:

I really believe that it is much more work to keep kids home doing nothing than to send them to school.  Who does that?  Pandemic aside, people generally don't homeschool if they do not want to remain invested in the education of their children.  Now, I will say that I live in an area that is highly educated and more affluent and maybe that influences my perspective.  I simply haven't seen that this is an issue in the 15 years that we've been involved in homeschooling circles. 

Three trends I'm seeing (admittedly this is from the UK):

- Schools "persuading" parents to "electively" homeschool to avoid an expulsion. Parents aren't always in a position to fight it, and those who despair of getting education in the system may conclude their child would learn more by playing on their computer all day than actually attending school. Such parents may or may not be in a position to actually teach anything, and they may still care about their child's education, but that doesn't mean their child is actually getting an education. (Yes, it's illegal, and no, that doesn't stop schools who are faced with children they deem too difficult to educate - usually either due to behaviour or disability).

- Children being withdrawn due to chronic bullying or other serious safety concerns (this was increasing for at least 3 years prior to the pandemic). Again, parents may care about the child's education, but if they're not in a position to educate the child at home and the child's not ready to self-teach, no education will happen. Ordering the child back to school is useless because parents know that some children in that situation die, and that's not a risk this sort of family's willing to take. Aggravating this is a lack of support in how to de-school a child, or indeed the parents of such a child.

- Parents who think getting an education (or at least, getting educated beyond a certain level - this tends to be more an issue in secondary school) is itself harmful to a child. Anti-intellectualism is on the rise, but there's a limit as to how anti-intellectual it's possible to be in the school system. If a parent thinks education is harmful, they're probably not going to educate a child they've removed from school.

[Not_a_Number]

The thing I've seen locally are

-- Parents pulling their kids out due to vaccine or bullying or behavior issues. Those parents usually haven't given much thought to how their kids were going to be educated at all. I've seen people treat classes at our homeschooling center as sufficient coverage for certain academic topics (they really aren't most of the time), I've seen kids do random worksheets on the subway... it's really subpar. 

-- Parents who are very serious unschoolers and don't believe in teaching their kids things -- only "exposing" them to things. I'm sure that works for some kids, but not if your kid has a disability best caught early. 

-- Parents who believe that literally ANYTHING they do at home is better than what a kid could learn at school. Anything at all, because schools are evil. I think some of the popular homeschooling literature basically encourages this perspective, frankly, as do the Facebook groups with the "children learn by playing! You don't need to do anything!" advice.  

[Not_a_Number]

On a societal level, I would guess that right now, the fact that some kids (like the kids of the parents on here) get really stellar educations due to being homeschooled is worth the fact that some kids get a really substandard education. Homeschooling is a very high variance activity. 

But on the other hand, that trade-off will start to feel different if the number of homeschoolers explodes, and most of the new homeschoolers are doing Time4Learning or something for an hour a day and then playing computer games. And frankly, the rhetoric I'm seeing in the Facebook groups seems like it would encourage a LOT of thoughtless homeschoolers to join in. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[8filltheheart]

44 minutes ago, Plum said:

It’s all up to each individual state and there’s no way we’ll see states all agreeing on how they want to handle homeschoolers. So really anything that needs fixing should be more about what we do within our own ranks. 

We have moved a lot over the last few decades.  But I have always nixed any positions dh has been offered that required us to move to a high regulation state.  It certainly isn't bc I don't have high performing students.  I want to be left alone to educate our children in the way I know is best for their individual needs.

There was another post about how homeschoolers are letting down other homeschoolers by not mentoring within.  I read that and about choked.  Homeschoolers today are relying on everything but themselves and their abilities to be homeschooling teachers.  Handing off educations to providers, online, boxed, or co-ops, is by far the norm.  (My autocorrect moved my  t  from the  to far....LOL,, maybe that was more approriate....maybe that is why people are seeing stinky low outcomes.  LOL!!)

[Emily ZL]

I will take on more monitoring and regulation from the district when THEY let ME come in and monitor and regulate them. I can't imagine how angry it would make me to have a state that does a poor job of educating many or even most of its children asserting their right to evaluate how I educate mine. 

I live in Texas (no notice even) and I have never met anyone IRL who didn't take their HSing very seriously. 

I would separately add that there is currently a largely unnoticed battle going on in our society between two rival ways of seeing the government's relation to the human person: is each human being a ward of the state, to whom the state owes many things, and whose care the state chooses to delegate to parents? Or is the human person, existing in a family, the main unit of society, who then consents to and participates in a government in exchange for certain rights and responsibilities? The early legal decisions on homeschooling recognized the family as having the fundamental right to educate within the family, regardless of the state's dissent, as long as it didn't truly amount to abuse or neglect. I think regulations, according to HSLDA have not ever been shown to improve outcomes, and there is no difference between performance in high and low reg states. But regulations DO imply that the child is largely the province of the state, and the state must be convinced that you are capable being given the state's task of educating your child. But that is MY job, either to educate my children myself or to choose an appropriate school. The outcome may look similar, but there is a world of difference in what rights the state feels it can accord itself in your house. 

 

[8filltheheart]

4 minutes ago, Emily ZL said:

is the human person, existing in a family, the main unit of society, who then consents to and participates in a government in exchange for certain rights and responsibilities? The early legal decisions on homeschooling recognized the family as having the fundamental right to educate within the family, regardless of the state's dissent, as long as it didn't truly amount to abuse or neglect. I think regulations, according to HSLDA have not ever been shown to improve outcomes, and there is no difference between performance in high and low reg states. But regulations DO imply that the child is largely the province of the state, and the state must be convinced that you are capable being given the state's task of educating your child. But that is MY job, either to educate my children myself or to choose an appropriate school. The outcome may look similar, but there is a world of difference in what rights the state feels it can accord itself in your house. 

 

Exactly, to the bolded. 

[Not_a_Number]

30 minutes ago, Emily ZL said:

The early legal decisions on homeschooling recognized the family as having the fundamental right to educate within the family, regardless of the state's dissent, as long as it didn't truly amount to abuse or neglect.

That seems reasonable, but then we need to CHECK for "abuse and neglect." How can we say we need to allow the family to educate their children as long as they aren't abusive or neglectful if we never actually track if people are abusive and neglectful? 

 

Quote

I think regulations, according to HSLDA have not ever been shown to improve outcomes, and there is no difference between performance in high and low reg states.

I'd take things HSLDA says with a grain of salt, because it's certainly to their benefit to say this, given that they advocate for a lack of regulation... 

... but if they have ANY real data, I'd be happy to look at it. As far as I can tell, everything they pass around is self-selected, and therefore isn't worth the paper it's written on. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

As another framing of this dilemma, the tension here isn't necessarily between the family and the state, but the family and the child. Whose rights prevail: the family's to educate their child, or the child's to get a certain level of education? Because make no mistake: those rights are at tension in some homeschooling contexts. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As another framing of this dilemma, the tension here isn't necessarily between the family and the state, but the family and the child. Who has the greater right: the family to educate their child, or the child to get a certain level of education? Because make no mistake: those rights are at tension in some homeschooling contexts. 

So let’s assume testing helps identify educational neglect by exposing kids who fail a test. Then what? Do we force those children back into the system? What if they live in low performing school districts where failure rate is also rampant? 
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

So let’s assume testing helps identify educational neglect by exposing kids who fail a test. Then what? Do we force those children back into the system? What if they live in low performing school districts where failure rate is also rampant? 

I have no idea, honestly. Perhaps the reasonable point you're making is that they should first fix the darn public schools, since they are about 98% of the problem... 

[8filltheheart]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As far as I can tell, everything they pass around is self-selected, and therefore isn't worth the paper it's written on. 

All homeschooling data is self-selected.  Since homeschooling across the country falls under very different laws, most which no NOT require sharing data, you cannot get a representative sample.  For example, the data on responsible homeschooling....not unbiased.  

[Emily ZL]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Whose rights prevail: the family's to educate their child, or the child's to get a certain level of education? Because make no mistake: those rights are at tension in some homeschooling contexts. 

 

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Perhaps the reasonable point you're making is that they should first fix the darn public schools, since they are about 98% of the problem... 

That is my point: what pass is the state giving its own schools that it refuses to give you? If they are failing their kids, nothing happens, despite the kids' needs not being met. And if you send your kid to these failing and even sometimes unsafe schools, you have done all you need to do and everyone gets to wash their hands. If they aren't themselves capable of providing a certain level of education to each and every child, they aren't in a position to dictate to the parents. 

I also think the biggest problem would be the practical problem of what situation or results would be considered neglect, which the schools also face! Schools have low performing kids and maybe there's all kinds of stuff that isn't the teachers' fault, which is a point other people have made. A perfect world where all children receive a top quality education and have nothing going on (divorce, illness, bullying, etc) that makes learning harder at the moment isn't really an option, however you school. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Emily ZL said:

That is my point: what pass is the state giving its own schools that it refuses to give you? If they are failing their kids, nothing happens, despite the kids' needs not being met.

And that's certainly a huge problem. And frankly, it would be pretty reasonable to say that the state has no right to intervene in all but blatantly abusive situations while it's failing a large proportion of its kids. 

I'd still like some data, though. It's so hard to have this conversation without any data... 

[lewelma]

13 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

So let’s assume testing helps identify educational neglect by exposing kids who fail a test. Then what? Do we force those children back into the system? What if they live in low performing school districts where failure rate is also rampant? 

Here if you fail an educational review (in person about 2 hours), then the Ministry works *with* you for 6 months to improve your educational practice. If you failed the second review, your kid is required to go to school.

I had a friend who failed her review (back when everyone had one not just people dobbed in). Her 12 year old was refusing to do work, so she thought she would give him 6 months of do-whatever-you-want in hopes some deschooling would somehow help.  At the end of this 6 months, the education review office called her up by chance (she was not dobbed in) for a review and asked to have whatever he had done in the last 6 months. She had nothing because he had been playing video games for 6 months. So she told them that.  She failed.  They worked with her for 6 months to improve her homeschool, and it was a real wake up call to the kid that if he didn't do something educational at home, he was going to be back in school. She passed her second review, and they continued to homeschool.

Unschooling is allow, Not-schooling is not. There is a difference.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Here if you fail an educational review (in person about 2 hours), then the Ministry works *with* you for 6 months to improve your educational practice. If you failed the second review, your kid is required to go to school.

I had a friend who failed her review (back when everyone had one not just people dobbed in). Her 12 year old was refusing to do work, so she thought she would give him 6 months of do-whatever-you-want in hopes some deschooling would somehow help.  At the end of this 6 months, the education review office called her up by chance (she was not dobbed in) for a review and asked to have whatever he had done in the last 6 months. She had nothing because he had been playing video games for 6 months. So she told them that.  She failed.  They worked with her for 6 months to improve her homeschool, and it was a real wake up call to the kid that if he didn't do something educational at home, he was going to be back in school. She passed her second review, and they continued to homeschool.

Unschooling is allow, Not-schooling is not. There is a difference.

This sounds a lot more functional than what happens in some states in the US, though 😕 . Possibly because it's a much smaller country? Although lots of states are small, too... I dunno. 

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Here if you fail an educational review (in person about 2 hours), then the Ministry works *with* you for 6 months to improve your educational practice. If you failed the second review, your kid is required to go to school.

I had a friend who failed her review (back when everyone had one not just people dobbed in). Her 12 year old was refusing to do work, so she thought she would give him 6 months of do-whatever-you-want in hopes some deschooling would somehow help.  At the end of this 6 months, the education review office called her up by chance (she was not dobbed in) for a review and asked to have whatever he had done in the last 6 months. She had nothing because he had been playing video games for 6 months. So she told them that.  She failed.  They worked with her for 6 months to improve her homeschool, and it was a real wake up call to the kid that if he didn't do something educational at home, he was going to be back in school. She passed her second review, and they continued to homeschool.

Unschooling is allow, Not-schooling is not. There is a difference.

What do they do if a kid is failing at school?

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

This sounds a lot more functional than what happens in some states in the US, though 😕 . Possibly because it's a much smaller country? Although lots of states are small, too... I dunno. 

Homeschooling is actually beneficial to the state because many people who pull their kids out here, pull out kids that don't fit the system.  Special needs, learning disabilities, mental illness, ADD, ASD, etc.  These kids are expensive to educate.  The State can save money if they can get these kids educated at home. It is worth their time to help parents make it work. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

What do they do if a kid is failing at school?

Well, now, arguing that because some kids are failing at school, we can't do anything about homeschoolers isn't quite reasonable. Since they are NOT sending the kid back to school, it's kind of orthogonal. 

The intervention @lewelma describes sounds reasonable and useful to me. 

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's so hard to have this conversation without any data... 

Where do you think the data is going to come from.  I have lived in multiple states since we started homeschooling.  Only 1 required any sort of annual testing and I could choose the test.  So, you have 50 states with 50 different laws.  You have multiple tests even in the handful that require testing. 

Every single homeschool is its own unique entity.  What happens in my home is completely unrelated to what happens in yours or any other homeschoolers'.  I don't know how the data is even quantifiable bc every homeschool has different teachers, different curricula, different family objectives, etc.  The reality is there are as many different outcomes as there are homeschooling families.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Homeschooling is actually beneficial to the state because many people who pull their kids out here, pull out kids that don't fit the system.  Special needs, learning disabilities, mental illness, ADD, ASD, etc.  These kids are expensive to educate.  The State can save money if they can get these kids educated at home. It is worth their time to help parents make it work. 

Yeah, I see that. And gifted kids, too, for that matter. I mean, I tried sticking DD8 into a normal classroom 😛. It wasn't going to work. 

[lewelma]

23 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

What do they do if a kid is failing at school?

To pass a Education Review does not mean that your kid needs to be at grade level. It means that you must education "as regularly and as well as" public school.  This means that your kid must be exposed to the 7 learning areas - math, science, social studies, English, the arts, technology, and PE on a consistent basis.  They can be years behind and your homeschool won't fail.  It is the parent who is being reviewed as an effective teacher, NOT the kid's educational performance.  That is where NZ differs from the USA. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

What do they do if a kid is failing at school?

Schools are reviewed by the Educational Review Office also.  Same office, actually.

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I see that. And gifted kids, too, for that matter.

Yup. But I see fewer of those because it requires a highly educated parent to pull it off, and those parents usually can make a ton of money by working. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Yup. But I see fewer of those because it requires a highly educated parent to pull it off, and those parents usually can make a ton of money by working. 

... sigh. Yes, I've noticed 😛 . 

[Roadrunner]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, now, arguing that because some kids are failing at school, we can't do anything about homeschoolers isn't quite reasonable. Since they are NOT sending the kid back to school, it's kind of orthogonal. 

The intervention @lewelma describes sounds reasonable and useful to me. 

Not some. Actually the percentage of kids passing proficiency levels in math and English suggest a massive number of kids are failing.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

Not some. Actually the percentage of kids passing proficiency levels in math and English suggest a massive number of kids are failing.

Don't I know it. I'm not really arguing this would work in the US. 

[LMD]

Here is what I see in my local hs community:

Most people care a lot and work hard to do a good job according to their values. 

Those whom I might raise an eyebrow at are either: 1. Dealing with a whole lot otherwise and are already on the radar of doctors and social services. 2. Coming from a bad school experience, often 'managed out.' 3. End up back in the school system around 7th/8th. Often all 3.

Also, I have zero faith in the education department. Anytime I have talked to them it is just a shit show of incompetence. Any time they try to review hs laws exactly 3 things happen, 1. Regulations increase, often illogically due to compromises, 2. Ed department and entangled lobby groups are given a lot of weight, 3. Homeschoolers and their evidence are patronized and ignored. We just went through this again a couple years ago.  I have 100% more faith that my off grid anti vax unschooler friends are more invested in their kids' educational wellbeing, even if I vehemently disagree with their approach.

No, I won't submit to any 'prove my kids aren't being abused' check! How utterly invasive and insulting! First, prove to me that abuse is more prevalent in hs communities. Fwiw, at an enquiry here evidence proving exactly the contrary was ignored. We already have abuse & neglect laws. Innocent until proven guilty and the gov better have a damn good reason for inserting itself in my family and home.

I follow the law here, but I resent it.

[Roadrunner]

19 minutes ago, lewelma said:

To pass a Education Review does not mean that your kid needs to be at grade level. It means that you must education "as regularly and as well as" public school.  This means that your kid must be exposed to the 7 learning areas - math, science, social studies, English, the arts, technology, and PE on a consistent basis.  They can be years behind and your homeschool won't fail.  It is the parent who is being reviewed as an effective teacher, NOT the kid's educational performance.  That is where NZ differs from the USA. 

This sort of attitude requires a tremendous goodwill and collaboration. I am having a really hard time imagining this happening here. So far all I have seen is hostility directed towards homeschoolers. My district where we pay so much tax money won’t even reply to me when I inquire about AP testing. I can’t imagine what you are describing in the states. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

This sort of attitude requires a tremendous goodwill and collaboration. I am having a really hard time imagining this happening here. So far all I have seen is hostility directed towards homeschoolers. My district where we pay so much tax money won’t even reply to me when I inquire about AP testing. I can’t imagine what you are describing in the states. 

Wouldn't it be lovely if the attitude was better, though? 😞 

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Don't I know it. I'm not really arguing this would work in the US. 

It doesn't sound like you are aware of what happens in ps's, bc it sounds like you ARE arguing that homeschoolers fail their kids and ps's don't.

 40-60% of students require remedial level courses when they enter college. "The national rates of remediation are a significant problem. According to college enrollment statistics, many students are underprepared for college-level work. In the United States, research shows that anywhere from 40 percent to 60 percent of first-year college students require remediation in English, math, or both."  Considering the tiny percentage of homeschoolers who attend college, that stat represents mostly ps graduates.  So, the question raised by @Roadrunner is valid.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/09/18/60-percent-college-students-need-remedial-classes-needs-change-now/

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

This sort of attitude requires a tremendous goodwill and collaboration. I am having a really hard time imagining this happening here. So far all I have seen is hostility directed towards homeschoolers. My district where we pay so much tax money won’t even reply to me when I inquire about AP testing. I can’t imagine what you are describing in the states. 

I've had a formal review back when all homeschoolers were reviewed at least once. It was actually lovely.  The man who reviewed me was so positive and wanted so much for me to pass.  And my boy was so excited to show him all the stuff he had made and read and done. I had to be teaching/facilitating/mentoring the seven areas of knowledge and I had to be doing it regularly. This is NOT a high bar. And I was a full unschooler at the time. If you can't pass this bar, you don't deserve to be homeschooling IMHO.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

t doesn't sound like you are aware of what happens in ps's, bc it sounds like you ARE arguing that homeschoolers fail their kids and ps's don't.

Let me just quote myself from above: 

"I have no idea, honestly. Perhaps the reasonable point you're making is that they should first fix the darn public schools, since they are about 98% of the problem..." 

I think public schools suck and fail many kids. No disagreement on that. And it's pretty reasonable to say that should be fixed before anyone goes after homeschoolers. 

[8filltheheart]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I've had a formal review back when all homeschoolers were reviewed at least once. It was actually lovely.  The man who reviewed me was so positive and wanted so much for me to pass.  And my boy was so excited to show him all the stuff he had made and read and done. I had to be teaching/facilitating/mentoring the seven areas of knowledge and I had to be doing it regularly. This is NOT a high bar. And I was a full unschooler at the time. If you can't pass this bar, you don't deserve to be homeschooling IMHO.  

You are far removed from the US ed system. Some school districts are vehemently opposed to homeschooling.  (And this is a county by county issue.  One county might be friendly toward homeschoolers and wants them to succeed while a neighboring county might be hostile and wants to have all homeschooling made illegal.)  It has nothing to do with the abilities of homeschooling parents and everything to do with controlling the education of children.  

We lived in a state where the county paid for our ds to take AP exams bc they paid for their students to take AP exams.  We had no problems finding him a seat.  They were happy to accommodate.  The neighboring county, otoh, refused to let any homeschoolers into their schools for any sort of testing...AP, PSAT, etc.  They would send sheriffs to people's homes accusing them of truancy, violating the law, etc.  I knew a family who put up their home for sale to move out of that county bc of how difficult they were to deal with.   

Edited April 13, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[lewelma]

I will also add that I did NOT have to have an academic curriculum to meet the 7 areas.  

Social studies: field trips counted. Books from the library counted. 

Technology: did not have to be computers.  It could also be how societal processes work like getting food to the table, or mailing a letter (my son was 6 at the time).

The Arts: I outsourced this to an afterschool program in the school holidays; that plus his group violin lessons that cost me $1/week was fine. 

Science: trade books were fine. His project identifying and counting all the mushrooms in our local woods was fine.

Math: playing shop was fine.  

It was NOT a high bar. He made notes of what we did in each category and how often we did them. "as regularly and as well as" is a reasonable benchmark that allows for a LOT of variability in philosophy and implementation. It is NOT based on the kid's performance on tests. 

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

You are far removed from the US ed system.

Fair.  I thought it would be of interest to think about how it *might* work.  Basically, we regulate *before* you homeschool; the USA regulates *after*.  In addition, we evaluate the teacher; the USA evaluates the student.  It is actually a fascinating difference. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

Just now, lewelma said:

Fair.  I thought it would be of interest to think about how it *might* work.  Basically, we regulate *before* you homeschool; the USA regulates *after*.  We regulate the teaching; the USA regulates the student.  It is actually a fascinating difference. 

In addition every school district is its own fiefdom under its own superintendent (all responsible under a state superintendent, but school systems tend to operate under their own degree of individual authority.)  A small state might have 100+ districts.  A large state might have close to 1000.  (CA and NY both have in the upper 900s.)  In the 50 states, that is a lot of individual school systems.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Fair.  I thought it would be of interest to think about how it *might* work.  Basically, we regulate *before* you homeschool; the USA regulates *after*.  In addition, we evaluate the teacher; the USA evaluates the student.  It is actually a fascinating difference. 

That's the whole problem: there are lots of way it MIGHT work, but then there are also ways that public schools MIGHT work, but then they don't 😕 . 

But possibly you're arguing that getting homeschooling right is actually relatively easier? That might be true... 

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

In addition every school district is its own fiefdom under its own superintendent (all responsible under a state superintendent, but school systems tend to operate under their own degree of individual authority.)  A small state might have 100+ districts.  A large state might have close to 1000.  (CA and NY both have in the upper 900s.)  In the 50 states, that is a lot of individual school systems.

NZ is the size of KY based on population size and geography (NZ is a bit bigger). We can be compared only to them, really. 

[Roadrunner]

So I went looking for some stats on pass rates. 
https://www.nationsreportcard.gov

unbelievable really. 
 

 

 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's the whole problem: there are lots of way it MIGHT work, but then there are also ways that public schools MIGHT work, but then they don't 😕 . 

But possibly you're arguing that getting homeschooling right is actually relatively easier? That might be true... 

I'm arguing that regulation of homeschooling can be done well. And it can be done in a way that does not limit the freedom of the parent to instill their own values and follow their own methods. I am also arguing that there is a minimum level of education that the state can and should require, and that a couple of workbooks from wallmart don't cut it.  I refuse to accept that the America's educational system is broken forever. That it can never be fixed. Sure, right now, it is broken -- both the school system and the homeschooling regulation. But there is a future in finding an effective and fair way to make sure all children are educated, and some sort of regulation is a part of that goal IMHO.