Home school "advice"/"standards"

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

What is the point of testing above 10% though? Can you imagine the outcry if we got numbers from homeschoolers testing that low? 😱

 

Just to make sure people are teaching their kids something, really. That's why I'm saying I like the idea of some minimal regulations as opposed to something onerous. (Also, I said 10th percentile, not 10%.) 

 

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Now I don’t see what does being black has to do with being able to supply a sample.

Nothing. But if you got a reviewer who was biased, she might be harder to satisfy if you're one race rather than another. That's why I trust numbers more than people. 

I like @kbutton's description of having a choice of either testing or portfolio review, though. That seems like a great idea. 

[happypamama]

26 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Just to make sure people are teaching their kids something, really. That's why I'm saying I like the idea of some minimal regulations as opposed to something onerous. (Also, I said 10th percentile, not 10%.) 

 

Nothing. But if you got a reviewer who was biased, she might be harder to satisfy if you're one race rather than another. That's why I trust numbers more than people. 

I like @kbutton's description of having a choice of either testing or portfolio review, though. That seems like a great idea. 

I would not be in favor of portfolio reviews if you don't get to choose your reviewer.  That could have potential for bias in several ways. 

 

We choose our own reviewer.  I'm free to choose someone who is a good fit for my family. If you have a documented special ed child, they do have a bit more oversight from the school and also have to use an evaluator approved for special ed, but even in that, they get some choice. That doesn't seem too terrible to me, but I don't have personal experience. But if, say, your child is just taking longer than average to learn to read, that shouldn't be an issue at all if you choose an evaluator who understands. 

[8filltheheart]

Just glad none of you are in my state's legislature.  I dont see our laws changing, thank goodness. 

I have not seen rampant educational neglect anywhere we have lived over multiple decades and in multiple locations. Homeschoolers with goals way lower than mine? Yes, but still on par with avg ps standards? Yes. Graduating with only alg 2, 3 sciences, 2 foreign lang, 3 history, etc is very much on par with an avg high school diploma.  

Is there some out there? Unfortunately, I'm sure there is. But, there are plenty of high school graduates who have received educational neglect within the system, so even in full view ps classroom with complete oversight and regulation, kids dont receive the education they deserved. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, happypamama said:

I would not be in favor of portfolio reviews if you don't get to choose your reviewer.  That could have potential for bias in several ways. 

We choose our own reviewer.  I'm free to choose someone who is a good fit for my family. If you have a documented special ed child, they do have a bit more oversight from the school and also have to use an evaluator approved for special ed, but even in that, they get some choice. That doesn't seem too terrible to me, but I don't have personal experience. But if, say, your child is just taking longer than average to learn to read, that shouldn't be an issue at all if you choose an evaluator who understands. 

Hmmm, that's a good point -- if you can choose your own reviewer, that seems different! Of course, that could also maybe be abused, but it seems much better than prescribed reviewers. 

[kristin0713]

5 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

I live in a no regulation state (NJ), know tons of unschoolers/not schoolers, but I don't think I've ever heard a statement like the one in the OP. 

Same.  Every homeschooling parent I know is working hard to give their kids a great education.  I have only met one person who I kind of thought was doing less than she should, but certainly not neglecting her kids.  And now the kids are grown and thriving in their personal endeavors.  

Ironically, I am moving to a highly regulated state--PA--and I have learned that there is not much practical difference.  As a certified PA teacher, I can perform the required homeschool evaluations for others and can "private tutor" my own children without getting an outside evaluation.  I have learned a LOT from other evaluators about what actually happens in PA.  The bottom line is that the rules don't make much of a difference because there is a way around everything.  For example, PA requires 180 days or 900 hours. But there is nothing required to prove the number of days/hours.  A good evaluator will ask about it, but the family does not have to produce anything to show that they actually completed the days.  They are required to cover certain subjects but the law is very vague in how it is worded.  Testing is required in certain grades, but families are not required to declare a grade for each child.  So a family can perpetually not declare a grade, use a different evaluator every year, and never have their kids take a standardized test.  Also, when they do take standardized tests, no one looks at the grades.  So what is the point of that? 

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

I wish there were some data on this, honestly. Like, I see most homeschool regulation as easily circumvented or an annoyance. But I would actually love to see if having pointless hoops yields better results.

Me, too.  My guess is that the difference is negligible.  

[kristin0713]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmm, that's a good point -- if you can choose your own reviewer, that seems different! Of course, that could also maybe be abused, but it seems much better than prescribed reviewers. 

In PA, each family hires their own evaluator.  The evaluator works for the family and has no contact with the district.  The family hands in the signed forms.  It is common advice to families to choose an evaluator that agrees with your homeschooling style. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Me, too.  My guess is that the difference is negligible.  

It's possible. And it's possible that some level of regulation keeps away the people who were never going to sincerely homeschool in the first place... but I don't know. 

[kristin0713]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's possible. And it's possible that some level of regulation keeps away the people who were never going to sincerely homeschool in the first place... but I don't know. 

I really believe that it is much more work to keep kids home doing nothing than to send them to school.  Who does that?  Pandemic aside, people generally don't homeschool if they do not want to remain invested in the education of their children.  Now, I will say that I live in an area that is highly educated and more affluent and maybe that influences my perspective.  I simply haven't seen that this is an issue in the 15 years that we've been involved in homeschooling circles. 

[kbutton]

25 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I have not seen rampant educational neglect anywhere we have lived over multiple decades and in multiple locations.

I think the risk of this is going up as the level of bad information about homeschooling goes up. I think that's most of the problem. Local advice/FB advice for new homeschoolers now is drastically different from when I started researching homeschooling about 10 years ago. 

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I really believe that it is much more work to keep kids home doing nothing than to send them to school.  Who does that?  Pandemic aside, people generally don't homeschool if they do not want to remain invested in the education of their children.  Now, I will say that I live in an area that is highly educated and more affluent and maybe that influences my perspective.  I simply haven't seen that this is an issue in the 15 years that we've been involved in homeschooling circles. 

I think the idea that someone might want to pull children out of school only because they want to teach them is unfortunately not correct. Some people will pull their kids because they want a free babysitter for the littler kids. And some will do it because they've gotten in trouble for abusing their kids and don't want the teachers reporting them. 

Will those be most of the people using the laws? Definitely not. But if you can pull a kid out of school with zero proof that you're doing anything at all, there's no reason people who actually have zero interest in education wouldn't use those loopholes to isolate their family. 

[Roadrunner]

31 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Just glad none of you are in my state's legislature.  I dont see our laws changing, thank goodness. 

I have not seen rampant educational neglect anywhere we have lived over multiple decades and in multiple locations. Homeschoolers with goals way lower than mine? Yes, but still on par with avg ps standards? Yes. Graduating with only alg 2, 3 sciences, 2 foreign lang, 3 history, etc is very much on par with an avg high school diploma.  

Is there some out there? Unfortunately, I'm sure there is. But, there are plenty of high school graduates who have received educational neglect within the system, so even in full view ps classroom with complete oversight and regulation, kids dont receive the education they deserved. 

I agree, which is why I would only support regulation if it’s on a voluntary basis and if I can get something in return. No way I would advocate regulation for the sake of regulation. I do wonder though if for kids who want to play sports, or join clubs (mock trial for example), or need AP exam sites, it might be worthwhile to bend a little in exchange. But again, voluntary is the key. 
I could haul my boy to do testing once a year f they would let him play in their orchestra or sports team. 

 

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the idea that someone might want to pull children out of school only because they want to teach them is unfortunately not correct. Some people will pull their kids because they want a free babysitter for the littler kids. And some will do it because they've gotten in trouble for abusing their kids and don't want the teachers reporting them. 

Will those be most of the people using the laws? Definitely not. But if you can pull a kid out of school with zero proof that you're doing anything at all, there's no reason people who actually have zero interest in education wouldn't use those loopholes to isolate their family. 

I think people who want to abuse children will do so anyway. They will just go underground, off the grid. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I think people who want to abuse children will do so anyway. They will just go underground, off the grid. 

This is kind of assuming that child abuse is their reason for existence. Lots of people will do easy stuff and not hard stuff. In lots of states, pulling your kid out of school is really, really easy. Moving off the grid is a lot harder. 

[kristin0713]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think the risk of this is going up as the level of bad information about homeschooling goes up. I think that's most of the problem. Local advice/FB advice for new homeschoolers now is drastically different from when I started researching homeschooling about 10 years ago. 

I do agree with this.  I guess we will see what the next year or so brings.  But at the same time, I think the majority of pandemic schoolers are extremely eager to get their kids out of the houses and back into school.  

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think people who want to abuse children will do so anyway. They will just go underground, off the grid. 

Exactly.  These people are not going to follow regulations. 

 

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Will those be most of the people using the laws? Definitely not. But if you can pull a kid out of school with zero proof that you're doing anything at all, there's no reason people who actually have zero interest in education wouldn't use those loopholes to isolate their family. 

I understand your point, and I can see that it's coming from a place of wanting the best for kids. It's just so easy to get around the rules even in what is considered a highly regulated state like PA that it all seems kind of pointless.  Except that I will be able to make some money on the side doing evaluations when we relocate! 😆

[Roadrunner]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

This is kind of assuming that child abuse is their reason for existence. Lots of people will do easy stuff and not hard stuff. In lots of states, pulling your kid out of school is really, really easy. Moving off the grid is a lot harder. 

I tend to think of Turpins. That case was really big deal and prompted all sorts of frantic calls for regulation. If that family were required to report, they would just not register at all. Not their relatives, not their neighbors, not their coworkers.... nobody was able to sound an alarm. Their kids chained and abused...that became an image of homeschooling and prompted calls to send fire inspectors into homeschool homes to make sure the rest of us weren’t chaining their children. 

Where I live, off the grid is easy. Literally as well as figuratively. 

[8filltheheart]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the idea that someone might want to pull children out of school only because they want to teach them is unfortunately not correct. Some people will pull their kids because they want a free babysitter for the littler kids. And some will do it because they've gotten in trouble for abusing their kids and don't want the teachers reporting them. 

Will those be most of the people using the laws? Definitely not. But if you can pull a kid out of school with zero proof that you're doing anything at all, there's no reason people who actually have zero interest in education wouldn't use those loopholes to isolate their family. 

That has been the case since homeschooling was legalized.   States have allowed legal homeschooling without oversight for as along as I have been homeschooling.   There are a handful of extremely sad stories of kids who have been abused, but it is not a rampant problem or it would be highly publicizied bc anything for more control always is.

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I tend to think of Turpins. That case was really big deal and prompted all sorts of frantic calls for regulation. If that family were required to report, they would just not register at all. Not their relatives, not their neighbors, not their coworkers.... nobody was able to sound an alarm. Their kids chained and abused...that became an image of homeschooling and prompted calls to send fire inspectors into homeschool homes to make sure the rest of us weren’t chaining their children. 

Where I live, off the grid is easy. Literally as well as figuratively. 

 

You can't really reason about population-wide stuff using one specific case. It doesn't work like that. It's like saying "There's no point locking my door, because I read about that high profile burglary, and those folks would have been able to get into my house no matter what I did." It's simply not the case that because you can't control for the outliers, you can't change anything at all. 

Statistically, incentives change behavior. That's something we all know. 

[HomeAgain]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

 

Statistically, incentives change behavior. That's something we all know. 

That's true.  But what kind of incentive for changing this behavior? One of the things I'm noticing is that people start out with good intentions and they want to do this.  They want the kind of homeschool they think they see or read about. The problem is, things don't go as planned and they don't see a way to get back on track. They realize a few years later that they are way over their heads and their kids are sinking, but they don't see a way out.  Public school isn't an option because they'd drown.  Tutors are too expensive,.  They don't know a different way/don't have time/don't understand what the problem is, only that there is one. 
Having some sort of trusted person to help figure out a game plan, help without judging, offer testing or resources or even just feedback/support in a kind manner - this would go a long way to getting kids what they need from well meaning parents.

That said, I'm writing a paper right now looking for faulty arguments between two competing sides, the first claiming that incentives would encourage voluntary behavior, the second indicating that mandatory compliance is the only way to ensure change.  The argument for incentive-based voluntary behavior surrounds it with the fact that it relies on quite a bit slipping through the cracks: a significant, blow your mind, amount. 

Should it be a mixture of both and maybe something else?  More than likely.  I'm starting to see a real breakdown in homeschooling communities providing mentoring services to itself. 

[Roadrunner]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

You can't really reason about population-wide stuff using one specific case. It doesn't work like that. It's like saying "There's no point locking my door, because I read about that high profile burglary, and those folks would have been able to get into my house no matter what I did." It's simply not the case that because you can't control for the outliers, you can't change anything at all. 

Statistically, incentives change behavior. That's something we all know. 

The point I am making is Turpin type cases is what government is suspecting/worrying is happening at a higher rate than known. They don’t want to regulate homeschoolers because we might not score high enough on math. They want to regulate homeschoolers here because they say they want to stop the type of abuse that has taken place in that family that the current regulation made possible. My point is regulation doesn’t stop that sort of extreme abuse because these lunatics will move off the grid. 
I don’t think (at least in CA) regulatory attempts to control homeschooling have anything to do with education but everything to do with potential abuse. 

[Farrar]

Cases like the Turpins (or the case of the woman here who triggered our homeschool law who killed her kids) are definitely rare. But cases where families low key educationally neglect their kids are NOT rare. Like, that's the whole point of this thread is that this is sadly common. And while I know folks don't want to hear it, in homeschool graduates, stories of education neglect are everywhere. Many of them are just mildly unfortunate. People who were not offered opportunities to learn and had to fight their way up to improve their education but managed to. Others are absolutely dire and we should all be appalled by them.

That's the thing. This is our community. We should be embarrassed and appalled and not stand by people who educationally neglect their kids.

I do think some hoop jumping may help. At the bare minimum, there should absolutely be a notice of intent so that schools can track their own populations effectively. One of the reasons I like the idea of a testing requirement where you don't have to achieve any particular score is it forces the parent to face whether or not their kid is on target with other kids. If they aren't, that's fine. Maybe there are reasons and the parent is on top of that - by taking a better late approach or by remediating or dealing with learning issues. But none of this delusion. Would it be some magic fix? No. Some people would fake the test or dodge it or deny it had any validity at all. But I think it would be of such minimal invasiveness for a potentially decent effect. And while that's not something I have needed - I would absolutely be willing to do it (or some other really basic things) if there were data to show it helped ensure better overall outcomes in homeschooling. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I do think some hoop jumping may help. At the bare minimum, there should absolutely be a notice of intent so that schools can track their own populations effectively. One of the reasons I like the idea of a testing requirement where you don't have to achieve any particular score is it forces the parent to face whether or not their kid is on target with other kids.

Yeah, I'm kind of leaning towards this as the best kind of regulation. First of all, at least you could track people and get some statistics. Secondly, it's not all that onerous and doesn't make anyone do anything differently if everything is fine. And thirdly, it might be a wake-up call for at least a few people. 

 

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

And while that's not something I have needed - I would absolutely be willing to do it (or some other really basic things) if there were data to show it helped ensure better overall outcomes in homeschooling. 

Same. I wouldn't want something intrusive or something that required me to verify that we were doing the same thing as the state, ugh. But something minimal like this might actually improve kids' lives. 

[8filltheheart]

26 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I'm starting to see a real breakdown in homeschooling communities providing mentoring services to itself. 

What does that even mean? Compared to when? Compared to what? Homeschooling today is by FAR group dynamics with more homeschoolers outsourcing than doing things themselves at home. I cant think of even 1 homeschooling family I know IRL that does things without co-ops, online classes, or DE.

[Roadrunner]

If anybody can show me that a test improves outcomes in high regulation states over low ones, I might reconsider. 
That’s not what I see around here though. I don’t see neglect. I see very low quality education all around - homeschool or PS, and then pockets of super crazy (think Bay Area) both in homeschool and PS. I do see delayed education. I also don’t see my state all that concerned about education,  but I do see one of a kind abuse cases being the only time state really cares or if large enough number of kids leave the system to upset teacher unions over loss of money. 
Is it my job to police other homeschoolers? No. I don’t see one community of homeschoolers really. I feel much more tied to people with similar educational philosophy and/or goals then I am to their mode of education (homeschool or public). In fact I can’t stand most CA homeschoolers for a variety of reasons and have no desire to be policing them or group identify with them. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Roadrunner

[sweet2ndchance]

When we lived overseas, we were part of a voluntary homeschool program. Homeschoolers enrolled in this program got an educational stipend, computers, one-on-one support with an Alaska state certified teacher (you had to meet with them at least twice per year but you could email/chat with them as much as you wanted/needed), sponsored field trips and events for homeschoolers, and a curriculum/educational items lending library. In return, you had to have your homeschooled child sit for testing with your local DOD school in 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10th grade. What your child scored on the testing did not matter, just that they sat for the test. Why? Because DODS get their money based on the number of students who sit the test. The amount we got in stipends, equipment and services was just a small part of what DODS got per student and they got to keep the rest. So they used it as a carrot on a stick of sorts to get to count more students to get more money for the schools. And the program worked great, homeschoolers were happy, the schools were happy and more willing to work with homeschoolers. I'd say well over 90% of local homeschoolers voluntarily enrolled in this program. If you were not enrolled, there were no homeschool regulations to follow. The only requirements for the program were to sit the test when your child was in the testing grade levels (with no required performance level on the tests) and to meet with your teacher twice a year at minimum.

But I still knew people who were part of the program who expected their child to educate themselves with little to no input from adults. There were still people who toed the line of educational neglect. I still knew 12yos who couldn't read at all and those who claimed to be "unschoolers" who would be better defined as non-schoolers. Did it reduce the chances of people abusing or educationally neglecting their child? I don't know, it's hard to say. As has been pointed out in previous posts, there are children in the school system who fall through the cracks as well. Nothing is going to completely prevent people from bending and abusing the rules if they are determined to do it.

Would requiring a certain performance level on the tests help? I don't think so because my then-third grade son bombed the reading portion of the testing the year he had to test but it certainly was not due to any lack of trying to teach him! He is an adult now who can read and write just fine. He just couldn't do it in 3rd grade is all. We weren't living overseas any more when he was in 5th grade and by the time he was in public school in 8th grade and tested again, he was above grade level in reading and writing. I don't think being forced to enroll him in school earlier than we did would have changed anything.

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

If anybody can show me that a test improves outcomes in high regulation states over low ones, I might reconsider. 

 

Right now, there's no data at all, though. So it's very hard to say much of anything 😞  .

[Junie]

I think that oversight can be beneficial, but only if it is good oversight.

We do annual testing.  My homeschool was going to be put on probation a few years ago because one of my students scored low in math.  Now, this might be beneficial to me if I didn't know what I was doing.  However, I have homeschooled two children from preschool through graduation.  I have homeschooled six children over the last 16 years.  I am experienced.  And, yet, I was going to be put on probation because of one low test score.  It was as if the powers that be had no ability to look at my homeschool as a whole and to realize that there was no educational neglect.  I just happened to have a student who was behind in math.

The funny thing is that the reason I was not put on probation is that the county official read the test scores incorrectly. :)  The mechanism to put a homeschool on probation is to compare the composite score to a known benchmark.  She was comparing the math score, not the composite score, to that benchmark.  When I called the county official and pointed out her mistake, she profusely apologized and immediately corrected the mistake.  She said that she had been given the wrong information.  (I'm guessing after my phone call she quickly went through the other probation warnings to catch any other mistakes.)

This kind of oversight is not really useful.

[Porridge]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

One of the things I'm noticing is that people start out with good intentions and they want to do this.  They want the kind of homeschool they think they see or read about. The problem is, things don't go as planned and they don't see a way to get back on track. They realize a few years later that they are way over their heads and their kids are sinking, but they don't see a way out.  Public school isn't an option because they'd drown.  Tutors are too expensive,.  They don't know a different way/don't have time/don't understand what the problem is, only that there is one. 

I see this frequently. There are many parents with the best intentions who genuinely think that wal-mart workbooks are enough, or that a "play-based" education literally means just letting your kids play. I have heard it from very well intentioned moms who are simply overwhelmed with how much they have on their plate (not realizing how much work homeschooling is) - I hear them rationalize not doing academics by quoting (or misquoting) the kind of advice the OP mentioned, or advice such as, "don't rush it, everything will fall into place."  Even on this forum, we as a community often encourage newbies not to fret if their kid is behind, and not to over-academicize the younger years. OF course, we mean it with the idea that the parent has robust and earnest educational goals in mind, but I have heard moms IRL quote stuff like that to justify letting things slide in their children's education time and again.   

[Porridge]

I also think that there are at least some parents who don't realize that a huge part of homeschooling academics successfully is establishing solid non-academic parent-child relationships and a solid household culture / routine. For instance, can the parent set reasonable boundaries and enforce them? Some parents just can't-- then the academics end up sliding because the child won't do the work. Can the parent grow into a better parent? Yes, definitely. But hearing the kind of advice the OP mentioned provides a convenient excuse for not addressing the harder work of learning to be a better parent for that particular child. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, WTM said:

I also think that there are at least some parents who don't realize that a huge part of homeschooling academics successfully is establishing solid non-academic parent-child relationships and a solid household culture / routine. For instance, can the parent set reasonable boundaries and enforce them? Some parents just can't-- then the academics end up sliding because the child won't do the work. Can the parent grow into a better parent? Yes, definitely. But hearing the kind of advice the OP mentioned provides a convenient excuse for not addressing the harder work of learning to be a better parent for that particular child. 

And I think that for some parents, a gentle nudge towards "maybe your kid will learn better at school" will be helpful. Not because that's true for all kids (obviously not!), but because if you do have the kinds of parents who can't deal with attitude issues, or a parent who is scared of math... sometimes school, no matter how flawed it is, is the better option. 

[happypamama]

4 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

Same.  Every homeschooling parent I know is working hard to give their kids a great education.  I have only met one person who I kind of thought was doing less than she should, but certainly not neglecting her kids.  And now the kids are grown and thriving in their personal endeavors.  

Ironically, I am moving to a highly regulated state--PA--and I have learned that there is not much practical difference.  As a certified PA teacher, I can perform the required homeschool evaluations for others and can "private tutor" my own children without getting an outside evaluation.  I have learned a LOT from other evaluators about what actually happens in PA.  The bottom line is that the rules don't make much of a difference because there is a way around everything.  For example, PA requires 180 days or 900 hours. But there is nothing required to prove the number of days/hours.  A good evaluator will ask about it, but the family does not have to produce anything to show that they actually completed the days.  They are required to cover certain subjects but the law is very vague in how it is worded.  Testing is required in certain grades, but families are not required to declare a grade for each child.  So a family can perpetually not declare a grade, use a different evaluator every year, and never have their kids take a standardized test.  Also, when they do take standardized tests, no one looks at the grades.  So what is the point of that? 

Me, too.  My guess is that the difference is negligible.  

I've homeschooled in PA over a decade. You'll be just fine!  It's some silly hoops to jump through, but they have really no bearing on what you do with your kids. 

 

It is easiest to stay off the radar, so most people don't really advocate never happening to have kids in the testing grades. 

[Roadrunner]

I used to assume that people homeschooled for academic reasons. It’s just not true. Plenty of people aren’t interested in academics and as long as their kid knows how to read and can do basic math, they are good to go. Is it our place to tell them they need to meet certain grade standards? I used to think so before because we are such academic homeschoolers. Then I met a ton of people who did mostly nothing and then entered CC to graduate with all sorts of degrees in various trades. Bright ones moved on to UCs. I don’t know. It’s not my path. It’s not my crowd. But do I have a right to tell them their approach isn’t right? 
I am grateful that I have a community on this board. We are also a colorful bunch, but overall all care deeply for education. 

And I keep on coming back to some extreme cases, the sort you hear on homeschool anonymous (if I remember their name right) site. If those sorts of stories were dominant in homeschool community, maybe I would be more willing to consider bending. I really think complete neglect is rare. 

[kiwik]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the idea that someone might want to pull children out of school only because they want to teach them is unfortunately not correct. Some people will pull their kids because they want a free babysitter for the littler kids. And some will do it because they've gotten in trouble for abusing their kids and don't want the teachers reporting them. 

Will those be most of the people using the laws? Definitely not. But if you can pull a kid out of school with zero proof that you're doing anything at all, there's no reason people who actually have zero interest in education wouldn't use those loopholes to isolate their family. 

In NZ there are no enforced standards but you have to submit an application for an exemption from school attendance and your child has to stay enrolled at school until it is approved. This does make people think a bit.  Also the ministry of education does talk to the school.  I think a lot of people never get past downloading the form.  But we still have most of the same problems.  You exemption can be declined though.

[Roadrunner]

6 hours ago, kiwik said:

In NZ there are no enforced standards but you have to submit an application for an exemption from school attendance and your child has to stay enrolled at school until it is approved. This does make people think a bit.  Also the ministry of education does talk to the school.  I think a lot of people never get past downloading the form.  But we still have most of the same problems.  You exemption can be declined though.

Doesn’t NZ also have an examination system to enter universities? I wonder if there is data for homeschoolers. 

[Dmmetler]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:35 PM, 8filltheheart said:

@goldenecho I would like your post more if I could.  I agree. I am very opposed to more regulations. If I had to submit portfolios for my kids, parts wouldn't pass ps standards bc my focus is different and I think their priorities are wrong. I dont want to be compared to them bc my focus is not comparable. 

I actually prefer standardized tests for this reason-and when I taught in PS, I hated testing with the fire of a million suns. But, when I proctored homeschool testing, I didn’t see the stressed out kids I saw in PS, but kids who were enjoying playing school for a few days and were relaxed. I saw 10 yr old boys who brought knitting to do between test sections, kids who brought their favorite action figure to fiddle with, and test prep that consisted of buying snacks.

 

And the information was valuable, because it gave a point of comparison with the PS without actually having to change what I did. If my kid had been way behind, it would have been clear.

 

I don’t want testing used as the only evaluation  for any kid, but I think that requiring a test once every couple of years would help show parents if what they are doing is successful in time to more easily change it. And the unschooled autodidact that makes it to the Ivy League will do just fine, too

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And the information was valuable, because it gave a point of comparison with the PS without actually having to change what I did. If my kid had been way behind, it would have been clear.

Exactly. Ultimately, it’s informative for the parents and also allows one to see how homeschoolers are doing in general.

[Clemsondana]

42 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I actually prefer standardized tests for this reason-and when I taught in PS, I hated testing with the fire of a million suns. But, when I proctored homeschool testing, I didn’t see the stressed out kids I saw in PS, but kids who were enjoying playing school for a few days and were relaxed. I saw 10 yr old boys who brought knitting to do between test sections, kids who brought their favorite action figure to fiddle with, and test prep that consisted of buying snacks.

 

And the information was valuable, because it gave a point of comparison with the PS without actually having to change what I did. If my kid had been way behind, it would have been clear.

 

I don’t want testing used as the only evaluation  for any kid, but I think that requiring a test once every couple of years would help show parents if what they are doing is successful in time to more easily change it. And the unschooled autodidact that makes it to the Ivy League will do just fine, too

Locally, public school testing is a huge stressful deal...like I know a kid who needed therapy and most parents post about the insane stress associated with the tests...which often seem to include weird things and have tech complications.  Attendance at extracurriculars is low testing week...it affects the whole community, which is crazy.  But, I proctored one day of homeschool testing at our umbrella.  It was fun.  When I'd read the 'look at the sample question...do you see an answer that matches'...the middle schoolers would all yell out A or C or whatever.  They looked bored more than stressed.  At the homeschool karate class, most kids say that they like testing week because it's the easiest and shortest week of the year.  

But, one difference is that homeschoolers take a 'basic skills test' while public schools are doing...something different. I'm sure I'll learn more this year since my high schooler has to take public school end-of-course exams because they play a public school sport.  But, one hesitancy that I'd have about more regulation is that, based on the people that we have to interact with to navigate the public school sport issue...they know absolutely nothing about education, testing, etc.  It's like they hired an administrative assistant to manage paperwork and let them make up answers to other questions.  If you're just submitting paperwork it's fine...sort of.  Like, at one point they called my parents phone number asking for me...it was the number I first submitted 9 years ago when we were in the process of moving to the state.  I had submitted my current number 5 times since then...and when they said that we needed to take EOC exams I asked if we needed them for subjects in which we were taking the AP exam (at a private school) for that subject if I submitted the AP score and they replied that private school testing didn't count...I'm not sure they knew what an AP exam was and they probably thought it was something done by our umbrella, and that doesn't count as independent testing but testing at a place like Sylvan would be OK, I think??.  And, while we are dealing with this, a friend in the same situation of having a public school athlete was told that they can test independently so they are administering a basic skills test at home, but that they would not count a test like the SAT as evidence of being 'on track'.  So, my kid who missed only 3 total questions on the SAT will be taking the Algebra 2 EOC and the English EOC and a chemistry EOC in addition to the chem AP exam.  At least we only have to do it in 9th grade, we think.  Thankfully, our umbrella has been fantastic (we're mostly using them for younger and for transcript-making) - they're happy to count any reasonable test that we report - SAT, AP, EOC, etc.  It's funny - the public school, the umbrella school, the coaches, the principal...everybody has been great and happy to sign and submit whatever we need, but the county office has been mostly clueless.  

[Sk8ermaiden]

I'm for some kind of testing. I know a pretty dramatic number of homeschoolers who would be extremely surprised to see how behind their kids are compared to the public schools. I wouldn't want those numbers to have implications, but I think for the parents that do care, it would be a wake up call. If it could be tied to funds for homeschoolers like the situation sweet2ndchance described up there, I'd be all for it. 

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I'm for some kind of testing. I know a pretty dramatic number of homeschoolers who would be extremely surprised to see how behind their kids are compared to the public schools. I wouldn't want those numbers to have implications, but I think for the parents that do care, it would be a wake up call. If it could be tied to funds for homeschoolers like the situation sweet2ndchance described up there, I'd be all for it. 

I'd totally trade testing for access to a few things. Or maybe to have some sort of dedicated official homeschooling resource center... that'd be lovely. 

And as you say, it would at least be data collection and a wake-up call. I also know lots of homeschoolers who have no idea how behind their kids are. 

[Roadrunner]

I would personally trade testing for access as well. I really think we should have access to AP exams, clubs, music, art, and sports at public schools. After all, we also pay taxes. 
Now would I want it mandatory? That’s the question. 

[Roadrunner]

There is going to be another Harvard summit about homeschooling and potential regulation. Hopefully a friendlier one than before. There are some people in that panel who supposedly collect data on homeschoolers. It’s going to be interesting. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I'm for some kind of testing. I know a pretty dramatic number of homeschoolers who would be extremely surprised to see how behind their kids are compared to the public schools. I wouldn't want those numbers to have implications, but I think for the parents that do care, it would be a wake up call. If it could be tied to funds for homeschoolers like the situation sweet2ndchance described up there, I'd be all for it. 

I don't want any funding being tied to the only option for homeschooling.  With $$ comes control.   I have seen wanting to make homeschoolers pass the equivalent of "exit tests" for subjects.  Exit tests are tied to specific subjects and often are tied directly to specific curriculum.  For history, that could mean that if you focused on cultural world history  vs. dates of major battles (which was the focus of the textbook), your student could have had an excellent world history course that left them failing the exit exam.

[8filltheheart]

22 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

There is going to be another Harvard summit about homeschooling and potential regulation. Hopefully a friendlier one than before. There are some people in that panel who supposedly collect data on homeschoolers. It’s going to be interesting. 

Based on the bias of the former, I doubt that the data collection was unbiased.

[Porridge]

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't want any funding being tied to the only option for homeschooling.  With $$ comes control.   I have seen wanting to make homeschoolers pass the equivalent of "exit tests" for subjects.  Exit tests are tied to specific subjects and often are tied directly to specific curriculum.  For history, that could mean that if you focused on cultural world history  vs. dates of major battles (which was the focus of the textbook), your student could have had an excellent world history course that left them failing the exit exam.

I agree. I am hesitant if the proposal is for any kind of funding - truly, with money comes control. You see that in CA charters - you get funding, but there are increasing requirements for testing and strict stipulations on types of classes (for example, A-G requirements for UC schools). Sometimes the stipulations don’t make sense. FOr instance, AOPS classes don’t count for A-G. That doesn’t make sense, given how deep and rigorous AOPS classes are.

[Clemsondana]

22 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't want any funding being tied to the only option for homeschooling.  With $$ comes control.   I have seen wanting to make homeschoolers pass the equivalent of "exit tests" for subjects.  Exit tests are tied to specific subjects and often are tied directly to specific curriculum.  For history, that could mean that if you focused on cultural world history  vs. dates of major battles (which was the focus of the textbook), your student could have had an excellent world history course that left them failing the exit exam.

This is a huge concern.  I let my bio students do a practice EOC as an extra credit assignment and they are amazed that the questions are so often superficial and tricky.  They have questions like 'What color does Lugol's solution turn when mixed with starch?' which is appropriate for the quiz the day after the lab but not on the top 50 list of things that I want you to remember after a year of biology!  Of course, I tell them that learning the difference between correlation and causation is the most important thing they'll do and that's not likely to be on any EOC for biology.  I know a teacher who was on the 'teacher panel' for writing the middle school end-of-year tests, and she said that the powers that be didn't listen to anything that they said, so I don't know who exactly writes these tests.  I'm actually happy that the year that we're required to do it (9th grade) what aligned was mostly math and chemistry, because having to do a history class could be ugly.  As for English....I don't know what to expect.  My kid was excited when some of his PS ball teammates read the same book that he was reading for his co-op class, but this weekend he told me that they had only read 2 books this year while the co-op class had read 7 plus a unit on short stories...so surely he'll be fine with the test.  But, the chem one could still ask specific details about a lab that we didn't do.  And, Algebra 2 includes a bit of probability and also trig functions, which is weird.  I asked a math teacher friend to find a short-list of what was on the test since I wasn't going to plow through the 100 pages of edujargon in the link that they sent us.  I think they've redone algebra 2 to align with whatever math is on the SAT since that's as far as many kids will get before they take the test.  The EOC score is supposed to be a large fraction of their grade, but our grade will be whatever I report to the umbrella and will likely be turned in before I get the results back.  Fortunately, this is more amusing than stressful for us, but if I had a kid with test anxiety this would be awful.  

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, WTM said:

I agree. I am hesitant if the proposal is for any kind of funding - truly, with money comes control. You see that in CA charters - you get funding, but there are increasing requirements for testing and strict stipulations on types of classes (for example, A-G requirements for UC schools). Sometimes the stipulations don’t make sense. FOr instance, AOPS classes don’t count for A-G. That doesn’t make sense, given how deep and rigorous AOPS classes are.

It’s about time we start calling CA high school charter kids by their real name - public schoolers. 
Honestly we have been part of charters in the past. They really do work just like regular homeschool for K through 8, but for high school they are just like public schools - high control over curriculum and teacher supervision. Also these kids are getting their public school diplomas with all the privilege associated with it (nobody questions your grades for example at a UC or your honor designation) and they have college counselors and such. I am really tired of these people now setting agenda for homeschoolers in the state. It’s a disgrace here. So yes, I don’t want to see that repeated on a national level. 

[Clemsondana]

In TN there is no state funding of homeschoolers, although we do have access to school sports (and probably other extracurriculars although I haven't looked because there are homeschool or afterschool groups for choir and orchestra).  You do have to register, either with an umbrella or with the county.  The county only asks for an attendance report and a list of subjects that you plan to cover.  There is testing in 5th, 7th, and 9th grades.  In 9th, it's whatever EOCs match with your classes...like, I think there is a US history EOC, but there isn't a gov/econ one, and that's what we did this year so we have no EOC for history.  They do not make a transcript or grant a diploma.  We're just doing whatever we have to do to stay sports-compliant.  Umbrellas vary - some grant 'Independent Studies' diplomas and some don't.  The graduation requirements are pretty much the state requirements, unless they also require a credit of Bible.  Some require yearly testing but they are basic skills tests like I remember doing in school so they are low stress for most kids.  One thing that's interesting is that when we get results they show your kid relative to the national average and also compared to their test site.  The scores at our test site, which is just homeschoolers, have always been higher than the average.  We're at a new umbrella this year so we'll see if this is still true.  

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Clemsondana

[8filltheheart]

@Clemsondana I was happy to move from TN befor one of our kids' graduated or her diploma would have read The Farm School.  I had orginally registered with a different umbrella, but I was assigned to a brand new "counselor" who knew basically nothing and who tried to tell me that Foersters alg 1 in 8th grade could not be labeled honors and that the only courses that were permitted honors designation were AP or DE courses.  I tried to communicate with the umbrella asking how it was that private and ps students had honors courses and AP/DE were different designations.  Originally the only response I received was that the exact same line.  I withdrew my kids from that umbrella and registered with TFS bc they didn't want to control my courses or designations.  After I withdrew my kids, I was contacted by someone who said the looked at my records (I had been registered with that umbrella over 2 decades prior when they had first started.)  She apologized profusely and said that they would allow me to label my courses honors if I wanted to re-enroll but that they had established that rule bc they had so many homeschoolers wanting to label courses like Lifepacs honors.

TLDR--Even umbrellas can be lazy, not pay attention to submitted materials, have poorly thought-through policies, and poor quality control.  (I am also glad I didn't live there when our gifted kids were in elementary/middle school bc they also have a limit on the number of high school courses that can be completed prior to high school.  It would have been another hoop to deal with and fight over.

Edited April 12, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, WTM said:

FOr instance, AOPS classes don’t count for A-G.

I thought they did.

[SDMomof3]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I thought they did.

AoPS lost their a-g approval a few years ago.

[Not_a_Number]

58 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

The scores at our test site, which is just homeschoolers, have always been higher than the average.

To be fair, you’d have to compare to other students with similar backgrounds. The national average is basically a disgrace.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SDMomof3 said:

AoPS lost their a-g approval a few years ago.

Oh, I had no idea. What happened, do you know?