COVID-positive wrestlers (kids) and a question about this

[SKL]

17 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It is hard for me to believe that we have enough teens who will be suicidal if they don't get to wrestle (vs other exercise) to field full teams. There are lower risk ways to get physical activity. 

...

Also there is cross country running, zoom conditioning classes could be done with calistenics, etc. Heck I'm taking live streamed yoga classes 3-4 days a week right now - some on facebook, some on zoom. Kids could be doing a zoom conditioning class plus outdoor running, taking turns with limited people in the weight room, etc. 

...

Ok, but again, are we saying that every wrestler competing right now would be in an inpatient setting or physically damaged if they chose another exercise outlet? I don't think so. The vast majority of kids can find another way and we as adults need to help them. Or others will die. 

Right, and I'm glad, but unless everyone in the house is doing that, and everyone in every other household of every player there is no way to "protect the vulnerable" and have things like this. The rest of the household can spread it even if the student stays home. 

Right. It's why we don't see my parents - my son is working outside the house, so we have to act as if all of us are working outside the house. 

1) You shouldn't put words in people's mouths.  That's not a conversation.

2) You obviously don't live near the Canadian border.

3) Zoom doesn't work for everyone.

4) It is just as plausible for a sports family to be careful as it is for your family to be careful with people working outside the house.

[SKL]

5 hours ago, regentrude said:

But what about you parents? Since he could bring it home from sports, the same restrictions would need to apply to all household members. I cannot imagine how one does this, especially if someone has to go to work.

The thing is, sports or no sports, almost everyone is at risk of catching and spreading Covid.  Personally I consider it a lot more feasible to stay away from vulnerable people than to keep my entire household away from every possible place the hidden, largely asymptomatic virus might be.  Our household has long accepted that we are likely to catch it one way or another (if we haven't already had it).  We act like we have it.  We don't participate in many things, but the ones we do are with others who choose the risk.

As far as needing to go to work, hopefully workplaces have been modified to reduce risk and/or individuals can wear protective equipment.  If it's still a risk, those families would weigh that in their overall risk assessment.  That said, one-on-one youth wrestling is unlikely to have a notable impact on community risk.  It seems far more likely that a parent would bring the bug home from work than the other way around.

In case anyone cares, my kids are not wrestlers.  If they were, I'm not sure I'd put them in this season.  But I would consider all the risk factors and decide.

[Tenaj]

26 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Right, and I'm glad, but unless everyone in the house is doing that, and everyone in every other household of every player there is no way to "protect the vulnerable" and have things like this. The rest of the household can spread it even if the student stays home. 

 

We are being as careful as we can be under our circumstances as I'm sure you are.  I'm not responsible for the other families on our team (and believe me, I know that many are not being careful!).

We made the decision to allow the sports after careful consideration.  You may have come to a different conclusion but this decision wasn't made lightly at all.  Maybe the basketball season will be shut down by the school, maybe by the state, we have no idea what's going to happen after Christmas but there was no way we could even consider making him sit the season out while his buddies played.

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, JanOH said:

 I'm not responsible for the other families on our team (and believe me, I know that many are not being careful!).

 

First of all, please believe me when I say this is not a judgement, either on the bolded statement or allowing your kid to play sports. I get the mental health impacts, I really do. Summer was brutal for DS and cross country truly brought him out of a dark place. We did make the decision to let not allow him to do indoor track this winter, instead he will compete in Nordic skiing (like XC, it is outdoors, masked and distanced, though not without risks)—we are fortunate to live in a climate with a ski season. Also, an athlete in our area did recently commit suicide so I’m particularly sensitive to the impact the pandemic is having on our teens. It’s frightening, and as parents we all have to make difficult choices. I also think as humans with vastly different circumstances we all need to give one another some grace. I thank you for being thoughtful with your decisions. 
 

Per the bolded, I think this is exactly the disconnect many of us feel in these conversations. If some of us don’t feel responsible for others and others of us do, how can we bridge the chasm?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all out of f..ks for people who refuse to mask, who hold big get togethers, who won’t distance and continue to pretend this is just a flu. But for those of us who are being thoughtful and trying to do the right things...how do we see past differing experiences and trust that we are just doing our best in a really, seriously difficult time? 
 

 

 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

First of all, please believe me when I say this is not a judgement, either on the bolded statement or allowing your kid to play sports. I get the mental health impacts, I really do. Summer was brutal for DS and cross country truly brought him out of a dark place. We did make the decision to let not allow him to do indoor track this winter, instead he will compete in Nordic skiing (like XC, it is outdoors, masked and distanced, though not without risks)—we are fortunate to live in a climate with a ski season. Also, an athlete in our area did recently commit suicide so I’m particularly sensitive to the impact the pandemic is having on our teens. It’s frightening, and as parents we all have to make difficult choices. I also think as humans with vastly different circumstances we all need to give one another some grace. I thank you for being thoughtful with your decisions. 
 

Per the bolded, I think this is exactly the disconnect many of us feel in these conversations. If some of us don’t feel responsible for others and others of us do, how can we bridge the chasm?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all out of f..ks for people who refuse to mask, who hold big get togethers, who won’t distance and continue to pretend this is just a flu. But for those of us who are being thoughtful and trying to do the right things...how do we see past differing experiences and trust that we are just doing our best in a really, seriously difficult time? 

I think in this sense it's the same as any other time - we can't control other people, and we also don't know enough to judge them.  Maybe it would help for people to consciously redirect their judgment into the question - what are some possible reasons why this would make sense?  Or if they can't do that, maybe redirect to something more positive, like how pretty the snow is or how soon people can hopefully get vaccinated.

My kids' friend, who I earlier mentioned talking nonstop about suicide - here are some factors I know of (I only see a small fraction of their lives though) -

• Kid is super gregarious, closest sibling is too young to relate to, other sibling lives elsewhere.
• Kid's school has been "virtual" for all but 4 days since March (but sibling has been in school full time - different school).
• Kid is on meds for asthma, ADHD, and depression.  Even on meds, she has a hard time moderating her emotions.
• Kid lives with grandparents (not parents).  [Complicated/painful family history, which doesn't help either.] 
• Grandma drives to work in an office every day.  Grandpa is laid off.
• Grandma believes they all had the Rona last winter.
• Kid lives in a small house, where it's snow and ice outside for half of the year.  Also, it gets dark about 4:30pm these days.

I feel like this kid is in actual danger if she doesn't get some social time pretty soon.  Obviously this doesn't negate the fact that her grandparents may be at risk if she does [and so could she, being asthmatic].  But Grandma says, her going to work every day is more risky than anything else they are doing.  She isn't old enough to retire & she has kids to raise, so going to work isn't realistically optional.  Does she deserve judgment if she lets her kid hang out with friends?  Do I deserve judgment if I host said hangout?  What is really the point of the judgment?  Do people think their judgment of others is going to save lives?  Do they secretly feel safer if there are judge-able people "over there"?

One of the most judgmental people I know (facebook connection) is currently battling a bad case of Covid.  Based on her comments prior to being infected, I'm pretty sure she was following all the rules, and she homeschools her only minor child.  Yet that didn't keep her out of the Covid ward. 

The randomness of Covid is stressful, but people need to accept these [new] things we can't control - the way Covid behaves, the way other people behave, and to some extent, the mix of risk factors that we all have to weigh.  And FTR, I hate it just as much as everyone else does.

Edited December 17, 2020 by SKL

[2squared]

1 hour ago, JanOH said:

We are being as careful as we can be under our circumstances as I'm sure you are.  I'm not responsible for the other families on our team (and believe me, I know that many are not being careful!).

We made the decision to allow the sports after careful consideration.  You may have come to a different conclusion but this decision wasn't made lightly at all.  Maybe the basketball season will be shut down by the school, maybe by the state, we have no idea what's going to happen after Christmas but there was no way we could even consider making him sit the season out while his buddies played.

I agree with these sentiments. We are responsible for our own decisions and minimizing risk in the ways that make sense for us. Our decisions will be different than other family’s decisions. I cannot make decisions for other families, just like others cannot make my decisions. 

Seems like some people have the expectation that everyone in the country stays indoors 100% of the time for 1+ years. That’s the only way to be perfectly safe, right? Only then there would be no deliveries, no supplies, etc.

A huge range of safe, safer, and safest activities are possible between 100% isolation and Covid parties. Most people I know are making decisions on the safer side of the equation even if those decisions are not the safest decisions. 

Look at our family - we could be 100% distance learning with me WFH and have dh quit his out-of-the home job. That would be the technical safest choice, but it’s not the best choice for us.  While we try to avoid Covid, we also accept that we allow some risk into our family. 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, JanOH said:

We are being as careful as we can be under our circumstances as I'm sure you are.  I'm not responsible for the other families on our team (and believe me, I know that many are not being careful!).

We made the decision to allow the sports after careful consideration.  You may have come to a different conclusion but this decision wasn't made lightly at all.  Maybe the basketball season will be shut down by the school, maybe by the state, we have no idea what's going to happen after Christmas but there was no way we could even consider making him sit the season out while his buddies played.

I think what we were saying is that the schools/clubs should not be having/hosting high risk activities. They ARE responsible for what happens. 

 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

 

One of the most judgmental people I know (facebook connection) is currently battling a bad case of Covid.  Based on her comments prior to being infected, I'm pretty sure she was following all the rules, and she homeschools her only minor child.  Yet that didn't keep her out of the Covid ward. 

The randomness of Covid is stressful, but people need to accept these [new] things we can't control - the way Covid behaves, the way other people behave, and to some extent, the mix of risk factors that we all have to weigh.  And FTR, I hate it just as much as everyone else does.

I keep getting the feeling from your posts that you are saying well, no way to 100 percent prevent it, so why bother taking precautions at all. If you can't isolate in a negative pressure room, might as well hang out in an indoor space with no masks for hours. Maybe that isn't what you mean, but it is how it comes across. 

There are ways to socialize that do not involve having your face inches from another person's face while breathing heavily. There is a spectrum of risk, and all people were saying is that close contact, maskless, indoor activities seem to be much higher on that spectrum of risk. And that lower risk activities need to be substituted for the time being for the safety of all. 

That doesn't mean I hate people or think they are evil if they don't. It's not about judgement, it's about protecting the community. 

[historically accurate]

I really shouldn't still be reading this thread as it is triggering for me. I have a kid who has dealt with suicidal ideation long before COVID came around. I am sick of people saying, "It's for the teen's mental health." with "it" meaning sports, birthday parties, game nights, etc. when they didn't give a flying fig about my kid's mental health for the past 3 freakin' years. Now, all of a sudden, they're posting suicide hotline numbers on FB and saying "It's OK to not be OK." as well as justifying teens doing X,Y, and Z because they'll all kill themselves otherwise. Uh-huh.

For an example, the church is one of the biggest offenders right now - they're holding in-person Christmas parties and planning a weekend retreat because "the kids really need it right now - mental health you know" when they banned her from attending for several months last year due to her mental health troubles. I'm trying to think well of people and believe they really are trying to ward off struggles, but to me, it rings false in many cases. 

[skimomma]

My state banned all "organized sports" with the assumption that sports must be indoors in winter and therefore should be banned.  This means my senior is not skiing with her team in her last year of eligibility. This kid was skiing at the national level and was already grappling with the cancellation of all national racing.  This is an outdoor sport where social distancing is nearly required to do the sport properly.    Until the ban was put into place, they masked during their entire practices, shared no equipment, and maintained a minimum of 12 feet distance at all times.  When people whine about masks, I think of the 20 kids on dd's team that did not complain one bit about wearing masks while engaging in rigorous exercise for months.  They were very grateful to be able to do anything as a group.  So, my state allowed all fall sports, indoors and out, WITH spectators.  Then banned everything.  It seems so unfair.  I am trying not to complain because I sure would not want to deal with what our state health department and governor are.  Preventing deaths is far more important than sports.  But the lack of COMMON SENSE is one reason why we have so many people running around disregarding all of the rules.  Bars are open but schools are virtual.  Wrestling is OK just over the state border but skiing outdoors isn't here.  It just makes no sense.

[kokotg]

29 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

I really shouldn't still be reading this thread as it is triggering for me. I have a kid who has dealt with suicidal ideation long before COVID came around. I am sick of people saying, "It's for the teen's mental health." with "it" meaning sports, birthday parties, game nights, etc. when they didn't give a flying fig about my kid's mental health for the past 3 freakin' years. Now, all of a sudden, they're posting suicide hotline numbers on FB and saying "It's OK to not be OK." as well as justifying teens doing X,Y, and Z because they'll all kill themselves otherwise. Uh-huh.

 

It's worth noting that, despite everyone's fears, suicide numbers actually don't appear to be higher this year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/21/suicide-rates-pandemic-unchanged/

In my state, teen suicide is actually down substantially from 2019: https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/12/14/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-youth-suicide-rates-in-georgia

That's certainly not to say that there aren't plenty of people having a hard time with how the pandemic is affecting mental health or to downplay those very real issues. But I see a whole lot of people (not saying anyone here--just in general) trotting out "mental health issues" to justify doing pretty much whatever they feel like doing. 

And these things go both ways. My 17 year old is a serious clarinet player. We were letting him go to his youth wind symphony until recently because they were rehearsing outside and had done a lot of research on precautions, and we felt like the risk was small and worth it given how important music is to him. As soon as the weather got cold they moved everything back inside despite skyrocketing covid numbers and we had to tell him we aren't comfortable with him going anymore until numbers are better or a vaccine is widely available. So he had to stop doing something he loved because they weren't willing to keep up the precautions they were taking once it got inconvenient. He's fortunate in that he doesn't have mental health issues and, honestly, I think long term it will be a good thing for him as a person to have had to give up something important to him for awhile because he knew it would protect other people, even though right now I hate that he has to do it. I think that's true for MOST kids, and that doesn't mean I'm indifferent to the struggles of those for whom it's not true. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by kokotg

[SKL]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I keep getting the feeling from your posts that you are saying well, no way to 100 percent prevent it, so why bother taking precautions at all. If you can't isolate in a negative pressure room, might as well hang out in an indoor space with no masks for hours. Maybe that isn't what you mean, but it is how it comes across. 

There are ways to socialize that do not involve having your face inches from another person's face while breathing heavily. There is a spectrum of risk, and all people were saying is that close contact, maskless, indoor activities seem to be much higher on that spectrum of risk. And that lower risk activities need to be substituted for the time being for the safety of all. 

That doesn't mean I hate people or think they are evil if they don't. It's not about judgement, it's about protecting the community. 

I think you should not put words in people's mouths.

You want this to be black and white, and it isn't.  Or, you want my words to be black and white, and they can't be if I am living in the real world.

You also have accepted risks taken by your family.  Does your son really need to work outside the house right now, or is that a choice?  Don't bother answering, because we all know that if he didn't have a job, you'd feed him.  But you've decided that the pros outweigh the cons - that for your family, the risks of him being at home and unemployed are greater than the risks of him going to work.  And I would probably come out the same way, but it's not my business to judge regardless.

This thread is talking about wrestling, but it really isn't just about wrestling.  Right now, any indoor activity with multiple individuals is risky.  Many of the ones we take for granted are more risky than wrestling.  What this is really about is judging other people for making different choices than the ones we might make (or so we think, since we don't even know all the facts.)

We don't even know that those two boys in the OP got Covid from wrestling.  We don't know how their wrestling program is being handled.  It could be that the two brothers are practice partners - makes a ton of sense to me - for a parent of two kids close in age, it's a no-brainer.  We don't have enough information to make a judgment.  And unless we know the family intimately, we will never have enough info to make a judgment.  We shouldn't want to IMO.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

It's worth noting that, despite everyone's fears, suicide numbers actually don't appear to be higher this year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/21/suicide-rates-pandemic-unchanged/

In my state, teen suicide is actually down substantially from 2019: https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/12/14/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-youth-suicide-rates-in-georgia

That's certainly not to say that there aren't plenty of people having a hard time with how the pandemic is affecting mental health or to downplay those very real issues. But I see a whole lot of people (not saying anyone here--just in general) trotting out "mental health issues" to justify doing pretty much whatever they feel like doing. 

And these things go both ways. My 17 year old is a serious clarinet player. We were letting him go to his youth wind symphony until recently because they were rehearsing outside and had done a lot of research on precautions, and we felt like the risk was small and worth it given how important music is to him. As soon as the weather got cold they moved everything back inside despite skyrocketing covid numbers and we had to tell him we aren't comfortable with him going anymore until numbers are better or a vaccine is widely available. So he had to stop doing something he loved because they weren't willing to keep up the precautions they were taking once it got inconvenient. He's fortunate in that he doesn't have mental health issues and, honestly, I think long term it will be a good thing for him as a person to have had to give up something important to him for awhile because he knew it would protect other people, even though right now I hate that he has to do it. I think that's true for MOST kids, and that doesn't mean I'm indifferent to the struggles of those for whom it's not true. 

The study you linked covers only March - May.  I don't think we'll "scientifically" know the true fallout (or a lot of controversial things about Covid) until long after this mess is over.

Also, when I say mental health, I'm not just talking about suicide.  I would think that would be obvious, but I guess it isn't.  Just like Covid has long-term effects for some people who don't die of it, so does the effect of being locked away from society for nearly a year.

[kokotg]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

The study you linked covers only March - May.  I don't think we'll "scientifically" know the true fallout (or a lot of controversial things about Covid) until long after this mess is over.

Also, when I say mental health, I'm not just talking about suicide.  I would think that would be obvious, but I guess it isn't.  Just like Covid has long-term effects for some people who don't die of it, so does the effect of being locked away from society for nearly a year.

The Georgia numbers (which show a substantial DECREASE) are through the beginning of December. I understand that there's more to mental health than suicide numbers, but suicide is talked about a great deal wrt covid, including in this thread (and in your own posts). Here's a link to a survey that was just released that shows that most students describe themselves as "doing okay" during the pandemic: https://www.gqrr.com/news/student-voices-in-the-time-of-covid/

One other note on how this stuff goes both ways: I was thinking about why it might be true that teen suicides are actually down at least in some places, and I thought about my own kid (not the clarinet kid) who does struggle with anxiety. This year has actually been something of a respite for him with that, because a lot of his anxiety triggers are things that he's not doing because of COVID. But I wouldn't suggest everyone is obligated to keep the pandemic going longer so my kid won't struggle as much.

Edited December 17, 2020 by kokotg

[SKL]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

One other note on how this stuff goes both ways: I was thinking about why it might be true that teen suicides are actually down at least in some places, and I thought about my own kid (not the clarinet kid) who does struggle with anxiety. This year has actually been something of a respite for him with that, because a lot of his anxiety triggers are things that he's not doing because of COVID. But I wouldn't suggest everyone is obligated to keep the pandemic going longer so my kid won't struggle as much.

I agree that there has been an apparent respite from some things that are hard for our kids.  However, I am not so sure that is a good thing.  I see it making it that much harder to get back to what needs to be done.  I assume the effects will vary as humans vary.  Which is another reason why none of us can judge the decisions another family makes.

[ktgrok]

24 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think you should not put words in people's mouths.

You want this to be black and white, and it isn't.  Or, you want my words to be black and white, and they can't be if I am living in the real world.

You also have accepted risks taken by your family.  Does your son really need to work outside the house right now, or is that a choice?  Don't bother answering, because we all know that if he didn't have a job, you'd feed him.  But you've decided that the pros outweigh the cons - that for your family, the risks of him being at home and unemployed are greater than the risks of him going to work.  And I would probably come out the same way, but it's not my business to judge regardless.

This thread is talking about wrestling, but it really isn't just about wrestling.  Right now, any indoor activity with multiple individuals is risky.  Many of the ones we take for granted are more risky than wrestling.  What this is really about is judging other people for making different choices than the ones we might make (or so we think, since we don't even know all the facts.)

We don't even know that those two boys in the OP got Covid from wrestling.  We don't know how their wrestling program is being handled.  It could be that the two brothers are practice partners - makes a ton of sense to me - for a parent of two kids close in age, it's a no-brainer.  We don't have enough information to make a judgment.  And unless we know the family intimately, we will never have enough info to make a judgment.  We shouldn't want to IMO.

That's why I said I don't know if that is how you mean it, only that it is how it sounded to me. Fully willing to say I'm misinterpreting! i do that more than I'd like. 

And I'm not trying to judge these individuals, but I am judging the wisdom of schools and government sponsored organizations electing to hold events that require being indoors, unmasked, in close contact with others. We know indoors is more risky than outdoors, but we also know that distance and masking helps and reduces risk. This particular activity is being done unmasked, and obviously with zero social distance. Many indoor jobs, my son's included, are masked fully, and trying to distance where they can. Also, his job is helping to provide care and life saving treatment to living creatures - unless we just stop providing medical care to animals it is an essential service. (and when levels were over 10% positivity they didn't allow the public in the building at all). 

Again, I'm more looking at "should schools and clubs have wrestling practices and meets during the pandemic" than "should that one kid be wrestling" if that makes any sense. 

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

The study you linked covers only March - May.  I don't think we'll "scientifically" know the true fallout (or a lot of controversial things about Covid) until long after this mess is over.

Also, when I say mental health, I'm not just talking about suicide.  I would think that would be obvious, but I guess it isn't.  Just like Covid has long-term effects for some people who don't die of it, so does the effect of being locked away from society for nearly a year.

No one is saying be locked away from society for a year. There is a spectrum of stuff between unmasked, face to face contact and locked away from society. One can question the wisdom of having wrestling matches without saying there should be forced house arrest. 

[Terabith]

I see a big difference between allowing skiing (outdoors) and wrestling.  I see huge shades of gray.  I think it's ridiculous that the state/ school hasn't shut down WRESTLING (which is really absolute worst case scenario from a covid stand point).  That shouldn't be a decision that parents make.  That's a season that should be closed.  

Honestly, I think indoor basketball should be, too.  I see a huge difference between contact sports, indoors, in close environments, and working (masked and socially distanced).  

At the same time, I think it's silly to close down outdoor sports like skiing, cross country.  I don't see why youth orchestra couldn't continue meeting outdoors, even with coats and fingerless gloves.  

[historically accurate]

11 minutes ago, kokotg said:

The Georgia numbers (which show a substantial DECREASE) are through the beginning of December. I understand that there's more to mental health than suicide numbers, but suicide is talked about a great deal wrt covid, including in this thread (and in your own posts). Here's a link to a survey that was just released that shows that most students describe themselves as "doing okay" during the pandemic: https://www.gqrr.com/news/student-voices-in-the-time-of-covid/

One other note on how this stuff goes both ways: I was thinking about why it might be true that teen suicides are actually down at least in some places, and I thought about my own kid (not the clarinet kid) who does struggle with anxiety. This year has actually been something of a respite for him with that, because a lot of his anxiety triggers are things that he's not doing because of COVID. But I wouldn't suggest everyone is obligated to keep the pandemic going longer so my kid won't struggle as much.

FWIW, my kid told me that the hospital was only 1/4 full in the adolescent psych wing when she was there in July. Usually it is full and she is waiting for a bed. My theory is people are doing more to head off an in-patient stay - talking more, more time together to notice mood changes, family dinners/game nights, etc - so people are probably getting teens needed help as outpatient rather than it being a crisis situation. 

[regentrude]

33 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

FWIW, my kid told me that the hospital was only 1/4 full in the adolescent psych wing when she was there in July. Usually it is full and she is waiting for a bed. My theory is people are doing more to head off an in-patient stay - talking more, more time together to notice mood changes, family dinners/game nights, etc - so people are probably getting teens needed help as outpatient rather than it being a crisis situation. 

Another effect could be that people are so scared of a hospital stay during the pandemic that they will avoid hospitalization even where it were prudent.

It is certainly true for medical procedures and non-life saving surgeries; hospitals and doctors report that people are forgoing all kinds of necessary medical treatments to avoid exposure.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I really shouldn't still be reading this thread as it is triggering for me. I have a kid who has dealt with suicidal ideation long before COVID came around. I am sick of people saying, "It's for the teen's mental health." with "it" meaning sports, birthday parties, game nights, etc. when they didn't give a flying fig about my kid's mental health for the past 3 freakin' years. Now, all of a sudden, they're posting suicide hotline numbers on FB and saying "It's OK to not be OK." as well as justifying teens doing X,Y, and Z because they'll all kill themselves otherwise. Uh-huh.

For an example, the church is one of the biggest offenders right now - they're holding in-person Christmas parties and planning a weekend retreat because "the kids really need it right now - mental health you know" when they banned her from attending for several months last year due to her mental health troubles. I'm trying to think well of people and believe they really are trying to ward off struggles, but to me, it rings false in many cases. 

I'm so sorry. I have nothing else to say but that. 

[TravelingChris]

I missed this thread when it was around first.  I have no idea if wrestling is happening here- hadn't seen anything about it in the news.  I do know that basketball is on.  Now college basketball, where they have very strict rules and lots and lots of testing- okay.  But I know that earlier this month, I saw coverage of some high school basketball tournament and the stands had lots of people too close and not wearing masks cause they had drinks, or whatever.  I just thought when I saw that piece on the news and this is why we have so much spread.