How do you adjust expectations in marriage?

[kbutton]

6 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I didn't get my spouse to take it, I'm talking about understanding it for my own sake.  I do talk about things in terms of personality type and he does too, he just does it with less precision. When it's an aspect of life you both explicitly  take into consideration for yourself and dealing with other people, it's more normalized.  I talk about it like I expect an adult to already know about it.

...

You can google "Big 5 personality" for more info.

Thanks. I appreciate the examples. I suspect the bolded is a lot of the problem. Not everyone's parents/family members are neurotypical or proactive in this way or even aware of time, timing, plans, or something other than Now and Not Now. When it is considered, it's often not communicated at the right time or in a positive, actionable way. Not everyone outgrows their upbringing. 

[regentrude]

25 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I would ask him if he thought sleeping all day and not interacting with his family was what God had in mind for a husband and father.  If not, what is he willing to do about it because it's his responsibility. Then I would wait for an answer.

If he flat out refused to answer I'd ask him if he thought my sleeping 18 hours a day was how I should live as a wife and mother.  If not, what did he think a woman in that situation should do about it?

What does he think other people suffering from depression should do about it?

Dangerous territory. That line of questioning may easily cause a person to feel even more guilty about how they are letting the family down (depressed people often have a lot of self-loathing) and bring them to the conclusion that the family is better off without them. I would not want to go there.
Not sure how holding a person responsible for their illness is helpful. The inability to act is the symptom. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by regentrude

[fairfarmhand]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Dangerous territory. That line of questioning may easily cause a person to feel even more guilty about how they are letting the family down (depressed people often have a lot of self-loathing) and bring them to the conclusion that the family is better off without them. I would not want to go there.
Not sure how holding a person responsible for their illness is helpful. The inability to act is the symptom. 

Yes. This. I don't know how to force someone to face their depression and get help. That's the nature of the illness. The depressed mind twists everything into "see? I knew I was worthless." 

i'd try to suggest video therapy. "I'll sit with you the whole time. I'll make the appointment for you. Anything you need me to do to make this easier for you I will do it."  For my loved one with depression, they will go, but can't muster the energy to make the appointments or manage the scheduling of it (asking for time off work, etc.) 

[fairfarmhand]

I think when dealing with depressed individuals, you have to deal with total truth and acknowledge that the do not feel that truth, but it is indeed truth.

 

1. You are a member of our family and I love you. Even if you can't feel my love it is there and it tears me up that you're suffering like this.

2. Your children love you and they are suffering too because they don't like seeing you miserable. (tread lightly here) 

3. There is help, not necessarily medication, but we can at least look at alternative therapies or talk to a professional about your concerns about trying some of these options. 

4. IT may not feel like it, but we will be happy again and we will get through this. I will walk this path along side you. You don't have to do it alone. 

[Excelsior! Academy]

I have not read the other replies, so I hope I'm not repeating advice.  Get the book The Power of a Praying Wife and a note booking journal to record prayers and answers to prayers.  Another good book is The Love Dare.  Both are very good and can help guide and advise you while encouraging you.  Just remember there are no quick fixes, but God is a miracle worker and He will be there for you when you need Him.  Often we may get to a point where we feel there is nothing else we can do, but it is at those times when we are on our knees and at our weakest that we are actually stronger than on our strongest days.  God wants us to call out to Him so He can show us who He is.  I'll be praying for you.  Please, update us occasionally and ask for prayers when you need them.  We will be here for you.  (((HUG)))

 

Edited: I see The Power of Praying Wife has already been recommended.  It really is a good, life changing book.  🙂

Edited September 7, 2020 by Excelsior! Academy

[regentrude]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I think when dealing with depressed individuals, you have to deal with total truth and acknowledge that the do not feel that truth, but it is indeed truth.

1. You are a member of our family and I love you. Even if you can't feel my love it is there and it tears me up that you're suffering like this.

2. Your children love you and they are suffering too because they don't like seeing you miserable. (tread lightly here) 

3. There is help, not necessarily medication, but we can at least look at alternative therapies or talk to a professional about your concerns about trying some of these options. 

4. IT may not feel like it, but we will be happy again and we will get through this. I will walk this path along side you. You don't have to do it alone. 

And while the person may be able to see #1 and 2 as true, it will often be impossible for them to believe in #3 and #4.
I don't know how to convince a depression sufferer that this will end. (And how you would even know that it does- because for some, there really is no help)

[Moonhawk]

Mental illness is difficult to deal with; it's not really a marriage problem, it's a medical condition that has really big consequences on all of his relationships. But that knowledge doesn't really help you in your immediate need: the hole in the boat is still sinking you, even if it is not in the main cabin.

So I'll just talk practically from my experience. A lot of this may not be the best advice (as I'm sure my fellow boardies will be more than happy to point out, lol), but learn from my mistakes and experience I guess. I'm bolding because I know I write way too much and I want you to be able to skim if you're not up for my treatise, lol. 

The best would be if he would address it medically. It's great he self-labeled it as depression, but it seems he's still in a "this is just how I am" or "I can deal with it myself" or "it'll go away on it's own" stage. And you've got to work with what you got, right?

What about the doctor for non-depression reasons? How does he feel about doctors in general? It may be a legit imbalance of something else that isn't being addressed. Is there a way you can bring this up to him without shutting him down? Does he have an annual physical or can you point out that you've noticed he's eating less or that his sleep may not be good since he needs so much? Something to get him to the doctor's door? 

But don't force this! Actually, don't force ANYTHING when he's already shut down. Don't use guilt! Don't show disdain for their "poor decision making" or "lack of willpower" or tell them you are already "sucking it up" and they should too. I have seen this backfire (spectacularly). The best way to make a depressed individual even more stuck in their depression is by getting a bulldozer to dig them out. Try a spoon, try a silk cloth, try nothing other than just being there for them with love and understanding, but don't try a bulldozer! Ultimatums can fail spectacularly and should be only used when the other alternative is already similarly spectacularly dire. 

It doesn't sound like you are there yet, so there's still tons of things you can do in your own wheelhouse to help him, and if not him, yourself. 

Fit as much good things into your own routine as possible and invite him to join. Not pressure, invite. 

• When he gets home for work, have the kids already at the door and ready to go on a walk and invite him to come with you.
• Make dinners healthy: nutrient rich, protein rich, avoid sugars and simple carbs. If you have control over his breakfast and lunches, gradually change these too.  Look up diets for depression.
• You mentioned travel: say that you want to plan a dream vacation for when you're able to travel again and you'd like to know where he'd like to go.  Involve him in the process, give him something to look forward to. 
• Add in [more] family prayer. 1 quick prayer after dinner. Then maybe expand it to a longer thing. People talk about the benefits of meditation for depression: prayer is basically that if done consistently and in a calming way, and especially if you can have a repeating prayer or at least a prayer that stays the same every day (not free form, is what I'm trying to say). 

Reinforce the good things he's doing, because it is super difficult for him to do them if he's depressed.

• So, do you know his love language? Try to show your appreciation in this way. If you don't, I guess try a scattershot approach of the languages to see what he responds to best. My DH is words of affirmation all of the way. I love love love to give gifts, but I could buy him the Taj Mahal and if it didn't have a "Thanks for everything you do, you're amazing" sticky-noted on it, it wouldn't mean anything. 
• If he's not doing anything you can praise him for, make it up. Ask for his help with things he likes doing or is so ridiculously easy. "Could you bring in the mail after you park?" "Would you mind putting the milk back in the fridge, I keep forgetting." Whatever. And just praise the heck out of it (or respond with his love language, you know what I mean). You may be privately annoyed (because you are doing a ton of stuff and where is *your* parade, right?). But this is what love looks like some days.
• Bend what you like (temporarily) around what they like if they are willing to put in any effort to do it with you. Not forever, but it's their mental health that needs support, and sometimes just silently sharing a TV show can be worth it if the next day they might actually want to get out of bed so they can do it again with you.

Put on your own oxygen mask. Find whatever outlet allows you to get up and do the day even if he never leaves the bedroom all weekend. Sometimes I have found thinking of myself as a single mom of 5 has been helpful. Basically, structure what you can in the house and daily life that makes things easier for YOU wherever possible, because YOU are the one who it will affect most. And besides, it's better if the plates are stored somewhere else and he has to ask where, than to have him come out of his depression to find the house Armageddon'd and you a wreck yourself, lol, that serves no one and nothing. 

And, I guess my last big rock from my own experience is that he's the one in charge of his own health. You can support and love from the sidelines and sometimes you can hold his hand or be a shoulder to lean on, but he needs to be the one that takes the first steps. It really doesn't work any other way. You'll have to decide for yourself what you're willing to do and what things you absolutely need from him long term if this continues. Being clear about your own capabilities is important  for him to understand, but is VITAL for you to understand even more. 

[maize]

Along the lines of addressing underlying physical causes, one thing I successfully encouraged my husband to do was to get a sleep study done. It turned out he had fairly severe sleep apnea, something I would not have suspected other than his constant fatigue--he didn't snore, wasn't overweight, etc.

 

Treating the sleep apnea has been one part of addressing his overall health.

Edited September 8, 2020 by maize

[73349]

Hugs to you.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren
punctuation

[HS Mom in NC]

On 9/7/2020 at 6:05 PM, regentrude said:

Dangerous territory. That line of questioning may easily cause a person to feel even more guilty about how they are letting the family down (depressed people often have a lot of self-loathing) and bring them to the conclusion that the family is better off without them. I would not want to go there.
Not sure how holding a person responsible for their illness is helpful. The inability to act is the symptom. 

I was suggesting that as a response to someone saying they don't believe in getting help.  The OP said he husband thinks that way.  So, if someone says to me they don't think they should get help for depression, then I'm asking these questions.

And my spouse did have serious depression.  I told him to get help because that's not how people are supposed to live.  But he's not anti-science, so he did.

[maize]

21 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I was suggesting that as a response to someone saying they don't believe in getting help.  The OP said he husband thinks that way.  So, if someone says to me they don't think they should get help for depression, then I'm asking these questions.

And my spouse did have serious depression.  I told him to get help because that's not how people are supposed to live.  But he's not anti-science, so he did.

I wouldn't assume that anyone who doesn't seek help for mental illness is anti-science.

Your approach is to use logic; for the affected person to respond to such an approach they must be able to follow the same logic.

Many people with brains impaired by mental illness can't. Partly because rational thought processes are hampered by the illness, partly because humans in general use rational thinking to justify our emotional responses above all and if the prime emotion is "I am a worthless failure" they will reason anything back to that conclusion.

I'm not saying it can't work, I've known one or two people who could reason their way to getting help. I've also known many who couldn't.

For most, there is no clear path forward.

My one hard and fast rule has been that an individual with a malfunctioning brain does not get to make decisions for the rest of the family. I had to hold fast to that one to protect myself and my children.

[regentrude]

53 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

And my spouse did have serious depression.  I told him to get help because that's not how people are supposed to live.  But he's not anti-science, so he did.

What does not being being anti-science have to do with this? There is very little scientific understanding of the genesis of depression or of the precise functioning of antidepressants. The very popular serotonine hypothesis for example has not been scientifically substantiated. So for somebody who is strongly pro-science, the fact that the prevailing wisdom of the psychiatric discipline is to try out different pharmaceuticals in the hopes that something works for a particular patient is pretty ludicrous - that's not a scientific approach to illness. There is no clear understanding what depression even is, let alone how to cure it - and I can completely understand anybody who is reluctant to embark on treatment that seems so incredibly random, fraught with side effects, and without a clear perspective for an actual cure.

Edited September 8, 2020 by regentrude

[Junie]

@Medicmom2.0 Your post makes me so happy for you!

[ktgrok]

Definitely start with a regular doctor's visit. My husband had a ton of symptoms he thought were "mental" but were from low vitamin D. He still has stuff to work on, but fixing THAT gave him the ability to work on the other things. 

But I'm not going to get into what to do if the person doesn't want to get better. I don't have an answer, and no good stories. 

[maize]

13 hours ago, regentrude said:

What does not being being anti-science have to do with this? There is very little scientific understanding of the genesis of depression or of the precise functioning of antidepressants. The very popular serotonine hypothesis for example has not been scientifically substantiated. So for somebody who is strongly pro-science, the fact that the prevailing wisdom of the psychiatric discipline is to try out different pharmaceuticals in the hopes that something works for a particular patient is pretty ludicrous - that's not a scientific approach to illness. There is no clear understanding what depression even is, let alone how to cure it - and I can completely understand anybody who is reluctant to embark on treatment that seems so incredibly random, fraught with side effects, and without a clear perspective for an actual cure.

There is a lot of truth in this!

I do think that the various medications we tried over the years may well have kept my husband alive, but they certainly did not represent anything even vaguely approaching a cure and they did have significant side effects.

TMS is the first thing that seems to have actually helped return his brain to healthy functioning; I'm glad to see some newer approaches to treatment that offer hope for people who have not been helped by traditional antidepressants.

[maize]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

I think a surprising number of medicines work because... "I dunno, we tried it and it seemed to help." We aren't as far from witch doctoring as we think we are. So while that's definitely true for anti-depressants, it's also true for quite a few other things, I think. 

I agree that this is true in much of the medical field. 

It does seem to me that our understanding of the workings of the human brain is particularly lacking, it is just so very complex and our ability to observe in vivo has been limited.

Definitely still a field in its infancy.

The endeavor itself is rather awe-inspiring; the human brain is attempting to understand itself. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by maize

[maize]

I have one huge medical textbook on what we currently know about dopamine alone. Reading that gives me an idea of how laughably simplistic most popular explanations of mental illness are.

[Alicia64]

I was having a really bad time too and then somehow found this (free) podcast. This woman's -- Brooke Castillo -- podcast totally turned my life around and I haven't paid her a dime. I highly recommend listening. Start with her first podcast and work your forward. (I've had some amazing results b/c I re-listened to many again and again in the car, when I'm cleaning the house etc.) My sister and I -- who struggled to get along -- are going on 20 months of not one argument. I'm sure my sister is perplexed. And my husband I are doing so, so much better -- really well, in fact.

I would definitely listen to #1 through #10 first before jumping forward.

There's nothing woo-woo about this. Brooke just delivers cognitive therapy in a way that's very easy to digest.

The ones specifically on relationships are: the Manual (#11), Challenging Relationships (#23), Unconditional Love (#27 -- the best one in my opinion).

Hang in there -- it's not "just you." Marriages are challenging.

W.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Alicia64
Misspellings and forgot to add the link! Eye-roll.

[regentrude]

nm

Edited September 9, 2020 by regentrude

[R828]

I just wanted to pop back in and say thank you so much to everyone who posted, especially those who posted personal experiences. I have read and reread everything, and I’m just so grateful. Your kindness has immeasurably encouraged me and your wisdom has given me much to ponder and work on. I have a perspective that I lacked before and I feel more hopeful than I have in a long time.