Ugh!! Outlining! Where do I begin to teach this???

[Karie]

I need to start teaching my son outlining and notetaking, but I don't know how!! I can do it myself, but I don't know the best method to begin teaching him. Any suggestions????

[flyingmommy]

bump

 

I would like to see the answers to this thread.

 

Jeannie

[Matryoshka]

I used Hayes Outlining, Note Taking and Report Writing Skills, and thought it was clear, sequential and easy to teach. My kids did well with it and seem to have retained the information.

[Jane Elliot]

It's really not hard at all. Here are a few things to look at:

 

Chapter 16 of WTM, the history chapter for logic stage, explains step-by-step how to teach your child to outline.

 

The activity guide for SOTW, Vol. 4 is helpful in getting a child started on outlining. It's different from the other 3 volumes which focus more on narrations. Vol. 4 gently gets a child started on outlining and then writing from their outline.

 

Rod and Staff teaches outlining, and I know other grammar programs do, too. I'm mostly familiar with R & S, but perhaps the grammar program you are using teaches it.

 

Remedia Publishing has two books, Begiining Outlining and Outlining, that work well. Rainbow Resource carries both of them.

 

You certainly won't need all of these, but using a combination can be effective. I would definitely start by reviewing the chapter in WTM.

[SonshineLearner]

How about IEW for Key Word Outlines? Might check into it:-)

[Peela]

Just read TWTM, its not so hard.

[Titus.Two.Five]

Chapter 16 of WTM, the history chapter for logic stage, explains step-by-step how to teach your child to outline.

 

Rod and Staff teaches outlining

 

Remedia Publishing has two books, Begiining Outlining and Outlining

 

The above are the things I am using to teach outlining to my dd13 and ds12.

[momsquared]

I am sure if you googled the web you would find lots of graphic organizers for note taking. There is no one right or wrong way and different things work for different kids. In the early stages for note taking (and this can lead to how to outline) I like using Cornell notes. They might also be found under two column notes. These are very user friendly and I find my high school students still can use them and study from them successfully.

[Colleen in NS]

Chapter 16 of WTM, the history chapter for logic stage, explains step-by-step how to teach your child to outline.

 

The activity guide for SOTW, Vol. 4 is helpful in getting a child started on outlining.

 

Rod and Staff teaches outlining

 

Can you offer some more insight on teaching outlining, with the knowledge you've gained from these sources? R&S 5 teaches it paragraph by paragraph. WTM seems to teach it paragraph by paragraph, but it's more about laying out the text in logical order, so you may get info. from different paragraphs, or rearrange details to make sense. And I've heard that the SOTW4 AG does it more by the entire text, not paragraph by paragraph.

 

What kinds of questions would you ask the student to lead them to seeing the main idea vs. the supporting details? How do you lead the student through this process? Would you start off doing it paragraph by paragraph of a text that had clear paragraphs, then move on to picking out the overall main ideas and supporting details of a bigger chunk of text (such as a whole SOTW section)? I've been hashing this out with another poster through pm, and these are the things we are trying to figure out.

 

Thanks!

[Julie in MN]

The activity guide for SOTW, Vol. 4 is helpful in getting a child started on outlining. It's different from the other 3 volumes which focus more on narrations. Vol. 4 gently gets a child started on outlining and then writing from their outline.

 

This is what we will be using soon. I'm always glad when someone else thinks thru it for me :o)

[SkiMom]

Colleen has brought up an important point. The outlining instruction in TWTM, Rod & Staff and the Remedia books only teach the student how to outline one paragraph at a time....by finding the main idea of the paragraph and then the supporting details in the paragraph. The activity guide for SOTW4 has the student outlining not by paragraph, but by entire sections. In the activity guide worksheets the student is actually given the main idea, and then has to search the SOTW text to find the supporting details. This is great practice for finding the supporting details...and well worth doing... but my Grade 6 ds has really struggled trying to find those main ideas on his own...in an entire section of text (he still struggles on an individual paragraph basis too) The activity guide worksheets don't ask the student to try to find the main idea, so they don't get practice with that aspect. Finding the main ideas seems to be the first step when outlining, so my student needs to figure out how to find those main ideas before he needs to find the supporting details. There seems to be a step missing somewhere. KWIM?

[Julie in MN]

In the activity guide worksheets the student is actually given the main idea, and then has to search the SOTW text to find the supporting details. This is great practice for finding the supporting details...and well worth doing... but my Grade 6 ds has really struggled trying to find those main ideas on his own...in an entire section of text

 

Wouldn't it be best to show them the main idea by modeling (as in the SOTW4 AG) & then a later step would be having them find the main idea on their own? Since I haven't done it yet, I can't tell, but it makes sense to me?

[LBC]

How about IEW for Key Word Outlines? Might check into it:-)

 

This is how I have learned to teach my dc to outline. It teaches me how to start out very gently, with lots of hand holding. First of all they just learn how to find key words in very simple stories or paragraphs. Then, as they become more confident in this, they can start to find the ideas, and write those into an outline. Once they get better at this, they are more easily able to outline from multiple sources, and can find the interesting or important facts for their outline.

 

When I first started with IEW and tried to incorporate it into outlining, I tried to do too much. They couldn't go straight to outlining a paragraph from SOTW without lots of help from me. Allowing them to work their way there gradually has made the process very enjoyable for all of us. Today, for example, they were able to work with me to write an outline on a DVD - March of the Penguins - and then write a nice, solid paragraph from their outline. The first step was to decide what the main topic was, and outline the opening topic sentence. Then they added interesting or important facts to the outline, supporting the main topic of the paragraph, and then they closed the paragraph with a clincher, which repeats/reflects the main idea of the topic sentence. I did this with my 3 youngest together - ages 8, 11 & 13. They each wrote a very different paragraph, with different levels of vocabulary, but each was able to use the outline that we all created together by discussing the things we learned in the DVD.

 

I don't know if this is helpful, or answers your question. I have learned so much from IEW. I love the WTM, but I have come to realize that SWB is a writer, and I'm not. She can teach writing without some of the resources I have needed. These things do not come naturally to me, and I needed a lot of help. IEW has been such a great help to me.

 

Lori

Edited November 27, 2008 by LBC

[Lori in MS]

The activity guide worksheets don't ask the student to try to find the main idea, so they don't get practice with that aspect. Finding the main ideas seems to be the first step when outlining, so my student needs to figure out how to find those main ideas before he needs to find the supporting details. There seems to be a step missing somewhere. KWIM?

 

I think the concept of finding the main idea in a story or paragraph is what is taught gradually in WWE 2-4. I know it's not in outline form, but they practice stating in 1-2 sentences the main idea of the selection that is read.

 

It also will probably become easier to teach this once we get SWB's logic stage writing book. I am looking forward to it, but it will be too late for my oldest ds so I am going to have to do something else with him.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Lori in MS

[Melissa B]

I use How to Read a Book by Adler.

 

According to what was written here, it seems to be similar to IEW in that it also teaches key terms, main ideas and supporting detail.

 

As to how I do it, I have my dd outline three or four chapters per week (one at a time.) Once she finishes outlining a chapter we sit down together and go over her outline. I read the chapter right before sitting down with her and we discuss how she came up with her main ideas and supporting sentences. If I disagree, I explain why and if she can support her own choices we leave them. She then rewrites the outline and finishes with a summary paragraph based on the outline and key words. (This adds paragraph writing practice as well. But, I do not edit the paragraphs. Paragraph writing was last year's focus so she is pretty good at them and has had to rewrite a large number already.) I will continue to go over every outline with her until we both feel she has outlining down and then she will do them on her own and we will move on to something else. I didn't go with the four levels over four years as suggested in the WTM. I decided we would just cover the whole thing at once and work on them as long as it takes. :D

[Rhondabee]

Colleen has brought up an important point. The outlining instruction in TWTM, Rod & Staff and the Remedia books only teach the student how to outline one paragraph at a time....by finding the main idea of the paragraph and then the supporting details in the paragraph. The activity guide for SOTW4 has the student outlining not by paragraph, but by entire sections. In the activity guide worksheets the student is actually given the main idea, and then has to search the SOTW text to find the supporting details. This is great practice for finding the supporting details...and well worth doing... but my Grade 6 ds has really struggled trying to find those main ideas on his own...in an entire section of text (he still struggles on an individual paragraph basis too) The activity guide worksheets don't ask the student to try to find the main idea, so they don't get practice with that aspect. Finding the main ideas seems to be the first step when outlining, so my student needs to figure out how to find those main ideas before he needs to find the supporting details. There seems to be a step missing somewhere. KWIM?

 

Even *I* have trouble figuring out the exact details the SOTW-AG wants if I haven't first looked at the answers. I/We might end up with some of the same details if I assign a "narration" based on one topic, to be supported by details from the story. But, sometimes, to me, they seem a bit off-kilter - they don't flow right or something.

 

Even so, I am still planning to use the outlines for some stories whenever we start our next six weeks. Usually when we have only one day to cover a story, and we won't have time to outline another source. But, I plan to use the discussion questions, then go over the outline together, and give them hints. (For example, if the missing part of the detail were a person, I would read the given part and then ask "who?").

 

I am dreading, though planning to use, the re-writes as well. I fully expect to see the exact words of the outline as my 5th grader's "paragraph" -LOL!

[GraceinMD]

I need to start teaching my son outlining

 

Your son is still young, so maybe he would be able to conceptualize the "Outlining with Legos" model that periodically is posted here. (I can't find the file on my computer, but maybe someone else will have saved it and will post.)

 

Basically, you are using manipulatives (Legos) to teach about categorizations, sorting, etc., and you're then showing how that gets turned into an outline.

 

Example: student sorts bowlful of Legos into groups (let him decide on the groups)

I. Large Legos (>or=2x4)

II. Small Legos (<2x4)

 

then you have him subdivide those groups (again, he decides what the subdivisions are - you just show him how to write them in an outline):

I. Lg Legos

A. Green

B. Red

C. Blue

D. Other colors

II. Sm Legos

A. Green

B. Blue

D. Other colors

 

Keep going until you've run out of subdivisions:

I. Lg Legos

A. Green

1. thick rectangles

2. flat rectangles

B. Red

C. Blue

1. thick rectangles

2. flat rectangles

3. other shapes

 

etc.

 

Then put them all back in the bowl and start again - have him think of other classifications:

I. Green

II. Red

III. Blue

A. Thick

B. Flat

rectangles

C. etc.

or (as my son did, when we did this exercise, which he LOVED, btw):

I. Redskins colors

A. Red

1. rectangles

a) flat

b) thick

2. squares

3. odd shapes

B. Yellow

II. Seahawks colors

A. Blue

B. Green

III. Other teams' colors

etc.

 

The point is to get him to see that there's not necessarily ONE way to organize information logically.

 

HTH! I see that others are chiming in with more "academic" ways to teach this - I just wanted to mention a method that was a good start with my (then) 10 yr old.

[Colleen in NS]

Your son is still young, so maybe he would be able to conceptualize the "Outlining with Legos" model that periodically is posted here. (I can't find the file on my computer, but maybe someone else will have saved it and will post.)

 

Basically, you are using manipulatives (Legos) to teach about categorizations, sorting, etc., and you're then showing how that gets turned into an outline.

 

Example: student sorts bowlful of Legos into groups (let him decide on the groups)

I. Large Legos (>or=2x4)

II. Small Legos (<2x4)

 

then you have him subdivide those groups (again, he decides what the subdivisions are - you just show him how to write them in an outline):

I. Lg Legos

A. Green

B. Red

C. Blue

D. Other colors

II. Sm Legos

A. Green

B. Blue

D. Other colors

 

Keep going until you've run out of subdivisions:

I. Lg Legos

A. Green

1. thick rectangles

2. flat rectangles

B. Red

C. Blue

1. thick rectangles

2. flat rectangles

3. other shapes

 

etc.

 

Then put them all back in the bowl and start again - have him think of other classifications:

I. Green

II. Red

III. Blue

A. Thick

B. Flat

rectangles

C. etc.

or (as my son did, when we did this exercise, which he LOVED, btw):

I. Redskins colors

A. Red

1. rectangles

a) flat

b) thick

2. squares

3. odd shapes

B. Yellow

II. Seahawks colors

A. Blue

B. Green

III. Other teams' colors

etc.

 

The point is to get him to see that there's not necessarily ONE way to organize information logically.

 

HTH! I see that others are chiming in with more "academic" ways to teach this - I just wanted to mention a method that was a good start with my (then) 10 yr old.

 

I like this idea! I also like your point about that there's not one way to organize information......very helpful.

[Grace]

I taught my kids how to outline with halloween candy.

 

We dumped their buckets over and I asked them to seperate it into 3 different groups. (They chose candy bars, hard candy, and chewy candy) Those were the I, II, and III

 

Then we did A,B,C by listing the types in each pile.

 

Then I showed them 1,2, etc. by listing flavors.

 

I. Chewy Candy

A. Starburst

1. wild berry

2. fruit flavor

 

II. Chocolate bars

A. Hershey bar

1. plain

2. with almonds

 

 

Then we mixed the candy and sorted it again by something else like favorites, color of candy, fat content, etc.

 

They really understood it after that.

HTH

[Karie]

These are really great ideas. My son is a little familiar with outlining because we are doing Writing Tales 2-and they have him do key word outlines. We are also working on writing a paragraph, so I sit with him and we write a simple outline together on whatever subject he has picked.

 

My concern is next year when he is in 5th grade and the amount of outlining picks up. I looked at the WTM, and it looks somewhat simple, but even *I* have a hard time sometimes picking out the main theme! I haven't even begun notetaking. I'm not sure how to start that. I want him to be able to read a book on a history subject, take some notes, and write a summary. Right now, he just reads a book and writes a summary. I tried to have him take notes, but that was a disaster. Of course, I didn't sit with him and explain it every step of the way, either.

[Testimony]

 

My concern is next year when he is in 5th grade and the amount of outlining picks up. I looked at the WTM, and it looks somewhat simple, but even *I* have a hard time sometimes picking out the main theme!

 

I struggled with the main theme on tests, etc. as a child. I hope that I can teach my sons outlining better than how I was taught. I am working with my older son on outlining. He was exposed to outlining from SOTW vol. 4. However, it was difficult because we were learning it cold. He had no background in it. He was started to hate history. So, I stopped.

 

He is learning outlining in Writing Tales 2 now,which I realize that I should have done with him last year. I have a book called How to Study in College. They have a section on notetaking. I will use that book as a tool for helping my son take notes. Outlining, I guess is different, but how I don't know.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey! This is one area where I am truly on a journey myself.

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Julie in MN]

I want him to be able to read a book on a history subject, take some notes, and write a summary. Right now, he just reads a book and writes a summary. I tried to have him take notes, but that was a disaster. Of course, I didn't sit with him and explain it every step of the way, either.

 

My ds (12) does notetaking while he *listens* rather than while he reads. Try that first. It's much more manageable for them to just have a notepad & be listening to you read or SOTW on audio or whatever.

[Colleen in NS]

even *I* have a hard time sometimes picking out the main theme!

 

I struggled with the main theme on tests, etc. as a child.

 

Outlining, I guess is different, but how I don't know.

 

This is why I posted the questions I did in my previous post. I just don't know how to talk my ds through finding and categorizing the ideas in another author's composition. I've seen some samples from SOTW4 AG, R&S lessons, seen the candy/lego ideas, all of which are very helpful for *me* to see what an outline looks like. But how do I *talk* him through finding them as we read a paragraph or a short passage? What specific questions would be helpful?

 

Testimony, I think outlining is:

 

-organizing notes (from your notetaking) from different sources and compiling them into some kind of logical order

 

OR,

 

-organized analyzing of another author's composition, to see how the author laid out ideas, so we can learn how to organize ideas in our original compositions later on.

[Colleen in NS]

This is how I have learned to teach my dc to outline. It teaches me how to start out very gently, with lots of hand holding. First of all they just learn how to find key words in very simple stories or paragraphs. Then, as they become more confident in this, they can start to find the ideas, and write those into an outline. Once they get better at this, they are more easily able to outline from multiple sources, and can find the interesting or important facts for their outline.

 

Hi Lori!

 

About IEW - when people talk about key word outlines in this program, are they talking about outlines where you are outlining another author's paragraph/chunk of text, or outlining your own notes/information from multiple sources so you can write a report?

 

If it's option 1, where in IEW is it, and how does IEW lead the child through finding the main ideas and subdetails in another author's composition - is it through example, filling in parts of an outline, or are there types of questions designed to help the child think through and sort out the ideas?

 

Thanks!

[mcconnellboys]

I've been using the Remedia publications that SWB recommended (available through RRC). I also have a workbook on Summarizing that I'm using (Steck Vaughn SV-2053-2, SV-2054-0, SV-2055-9, for fourth, fifth and sixth grades - lower grades also available).

 

I began the year with my son outlining one section from SOTW each week after he reads it. I helped him at first, then allowed him to try on his own. I remediated some of his first solo attempts, and he's now working on his own again.

 

I also have him outline each new section from How Nature Works as we get to it. I help with this.

 

My goal is to get him more comfortable with this process by the end of this year so that he can do these sorts of things more on his own next year.

[LBC]

Hi Colleen,

 

I'll try to answer this.

 

Hi Lori!

 

About IEW - when people talk about key word outlines in this program, are they talking about outlines where you are outlining another author's paragraph/chunk of text, or outlining your own notes/information from multiple sources so you can write a report?!

 

I suppose it's both. With IEW you have the student begin by outlining something simple, like another author's paragraph. As you become more experienced, you are able to outline at a higher level, like outlining your own notes/info from multiple sources.

 

If it's option 1, where in IEW is it, and how does IEW lead the child through finding the main ideas and subdetails in another author's composition - is it through example, filling in parts of an outline, or are there types of questions designed to help the child think through and sort out the ideas?

 

 

IEW is written in units. Each unit teaches a slightly different part.

Unit I: Note Making and Outlines

Unit II: Summarizing from Notes

Unit III: Summarizing Narrative Stories

Unit IV: Summarizing References

Unit V: Writing From Pictures

Unit VI: Library Research Reports

Unit VII: Creative Writing

Unit VIII: Essay Writing

 

The first unit teaches the student how to take notes by finding the key words in a sentence. The idea here is that the student writes an outline of a very simple paragraph, and then is able to re-write the paragraph from the outline. Of course the paragraph ends up sounding very similar to the original, but this is just the first step, and as they become better at writing, they can tackle more difficult levels of note taking.

 

By the time you get to unit IV, your student will be learning how to read an article from an encyclopedia and take just the interesting or important facts from the article. Unit VI shows you how to get facts from several sources, and then merge those facts together to make a fused outline with several paragraphs, which can be used to write a report.

 

Each year you can review each of these units with increasing difficulty levels.

 

Another aspect to the program is the dress-ups. This has nothing to do with outlining, but rather helps students with style. SWB has written a review http://www.welltrainedmind.com/J00review.html on IEW, and has commented that the way it teaches style really bothers her. It can come across as contrived when the student is just beginning, but now that my oldest is almost 15, I never expect her to follow the style as taught be IEW. She has her own style. The dress-ups also teach grammar in a way that is natural, which I like.

 

IEW is a writing program, and is going to be way more than you need if you only want to teach outlining. It just happens to be the writing program we use, and since it teaches outlining, we have learned outlining from it - if that makes sense.

 

I hope this helps. I'm not an IEW expert. I've been using it for about 5 years, and have facilitated a DVD class for a co-op, but I'm still learning new things every day.

 

Lori

[Colleen in NS]

By the time you get to unit IV, your student will be learning how to read an article from an encyclopedia and take just the interesting or important facts from the article.

 

Does IEW do this by outlining each paragraph in the encyclopedia article, or is it more of a "big picture" type of outline? If option 2, how exactly does it do this?

 

Thank you! (I know I sound like a computer program, but I am trying to figure all this out. :))

[LBC]

Does IEW do this by outlining each paragraph in the encyclopedia article, or is it more of a "big picture" type of outline? If option 2, how exactly does it do this?

 

 

Good question. It's more of a "big picture" type of thing. When Andrew Pudewa is teaching this to his students, he demonstrates by picking up an article and reading through it quickly. While he's reading, he's saying if he thinks something is interesting or important. This is his criteria for adding something to his outline. He's very good at this, and I'm not able to do justice with my explanation. One of the things that he teaches is that in order to teach our children, we need to train them to ask themselves good questions. When they are doing a key word outline, they are asking themselves what the main idea of the sentence is. When they are summarizing narrative stories (Unit III) they are asking themselves questions about the character, setting, plot and climax. When they are summarizing/outlining a reference article, they are asking themselves what the interesting or important facts are. He teaches his students how to ask themselves these questions so that they can begin to narrow down the information. They eventually learn how to do this well. My kids probably do this better than I do, since they're learning it young, and I didn't learn it until I was almost 40. My mind still gets bogged down by all the details, but the kids are able to find the important details, and pull them out of the story/article/paragraph.

 

I don't mind answering your questions. I'll do my best to explain how it works. The key to the program is that Andrew uses a DVD to teach the parent how to teach writing. There are so many examples that he uses, and it's hard to communicate all of it through written form. If you could see a sample of one of the DVDs, I think it would help you understand a bit better.

 

Here is a link to a sample from the Ancient History Based Writing Lessons. http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/files/AHW-S%20Sample_0.pdf Scroll all the way down to page 11 of the sample, and you will see an example of an outline made from a larger article. Keep in mind that this is a sample of something that can be used as a tool for parents who have watched the IEW DVD course. It won't completely make sense, but it may give you an idea of what the program teaches.

 

Lori

[Colleen in NS]

When Andrew Pudewa is teaching this to his students, he demonstrates by picking up an article and reading through it quickly. While he's reading, he's saying if he thinks something is interesting or important. This is his criteria for adding something to his outline.

 

One of the things that he teaches is that in order to teach our children, we need to train them to ask themselves good questions. When they are doing a key word outline, they are asking themselves what the main idea of the sentence is.

 

When they are summarizing/outlining a reference article, they are asking themselves what the interesting or important facts are. He teaches his students how to ask themselves these questions so that they can begin to narrow down the information. They eventually learn how to do this well. My kids probably do this better than I do, since they're learning it young, and I didn't learn it until I was almost 40. My mind still gets bogged down by all the details, but the kids are able to find the important details, and pull them out of the story/article/paragraph.

 

So, would you say that the key word outline of just a sentence leads into being able to find the main idea of a paragraph, which in turn leads into being able to question yourself while reading a whole article and being able to outline an article? And would you say that once kids see other examples of outlines of each of these things several times and go through the questioning process, they will be able to outline an article easily?

 

The thing I have the hardest time with is helping ds to figure out the main idea of a paragraph, nevermind a whole article. But it doesn't seem like there are more specific questions to help them find the main idea, it seems like it's more about demonstrating, demonstrating, demonstrating. Is this your experience? Maybe I just need to jump in and start demonstrating, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, article by article? (I get bogged down, too! Maybe my kids will take to it more easily)

 

Thank you so much! I do know someone with the IEW videos, maybe I'll borrow them.

 

BTW, your explanations are very helpful and clear.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Colleen in NS

[LBC]

So, would you say that the key word outline of just a sentence leads into being able to find the main idea of a paragraph, which in turn leads into being able to question yourself while reading a whole article and being able to outline an article? And would you say that once kids see other examples of outlines of each of these things several times and go through the questioning process, they will be able to outline an article easily?

 

Yes, this is the gradual progression that seems to be happening for us. Many of the sources we use to learn this are paragraphs that have a clear topic sentence, and are easy to outline. This helps the kids to get the hang of it. It is much harder to find a clear topic for a paragraph when you get into outlining lots of articles out of books, encyclopedias, and other resources. Also keep in mind that IEW is a writing program, and so the goal in outlining is to learn how to write well, not just to learn how to outline.

 

The thing I have the hardest time with is helping ds to figure out the main idea of a paragraph, nevermind a whole article. But it doesn't seem like there are more specific questions to help them find the main idea, it seems like it's more about demonstrating, demonstrating, demonstrating. Is this your experience? Maybe I just need to jump in and start demonstrating, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, article by article? (I get bogged down, too! Maybe my kids will take to it more easily)

 

 

 

I demonstrate a lot. I tend to outline with them, and write it on the white board. I have them work together to find the key words/main ideas, and then, once we have our outline, they write their paragraph or story - depending on what we're working on. I probably need to let them do more on their own, but I feel as though it's a very challenging assignment, and I don't want them to hate doing it. My oldest is easily able to do it on her own now, so I have faith that it will come for the others, too. My boys are more reluctant to write, and I really want them to love writing, so if that means some extra hand holding, I do it.:)

 

Here's an example of the paragraph my 8 year old wrote from the outline we made for the March of the Penguins DVD:

 

 

 

 

The Task of Love

 

 

 

 

By Emily

 

 

 

The Emperor Penguins mate and share the job of love. They choose a mate and waddle 70 miles to lay their egg. The female gently passes the egg to the male. Then the female goes home to search for food. Meanwhile, the chicks have hatched, but lots have died from the storms. The poor, poor males had to live off snow for 175 days. The female returns with gobs and gobs of food in her blubbery belly. The mother regurgitates some fish for the chick. Then the male goes to get food for himself. They return to the sea, each a different way, when the chicks are at least a bit independent. Although this task of love was hard, it was quite an adventure.

 

We don't usually make an outline of a DVD they've watched, but I had a lunch date and a hair appointment on Wednesday, so I let them watch the DVD while I was gone, and told them to pay attention so that we could write a paragraph about what they learned.

 

Lori

[Colleen in NS]

Many of the sources we use to learn this are paragraphs that have a clear topic sentence, and are easy to outline. This helps the kids to get the hang of it. It is much harder to find a clear topic for a paragraph when you get into outlining lots of articles out of books, encyclopedias, and other resources. Also keep in mind that IEW is a writing program, and so the goal in outlining is to learn how to write well, not just to learn how to outline.

 

This is great to know - confirms my thinking about how to do this. Use easily outlineable paragraphs at first to do the outlining/rewriting a paragraph, then move on to articles - and not in a rush. Easy, so that they get the hang of it. I didn't even realize until just a few days ago that I should eventually teach them to outline the bigger picture of an article. But it makes sense to me why now. I do get that it's to learn to write well - I'm going by SWB's writing CD etc.. It's way better than the lack of any writing instruction I ever had!

 

I demonstrate a lot. I tend to outline with them, and write it on the white board. I have them work together to find the key words/main ideas, and then, once we have our outline, they write their paragraph or story - depending on what we're working on. I probably need to let them do more on their own, but I feel as though it's a very challenging assignment, and I don't want them to hate doing it. My oldest is easily able to do it on her own now, so I have faith that it will come for the others, too. My boys are more reluctant to write, and I really want them to love writing, so if that means some extra hand holding, I do it.:)

 

OK, I just need to plunge in and do it. And demonstrate. (probably should outline a few things myself first - maybe that's why I'm so nervous about it, because I haven't really done much myself yet! And find in advance some easily outlineable paragraphs instead of scrambling when it's time for a writing lesson!). I'm a hand holder, too. If someone had done this for me as a kid, I'd have a much easier time understanding how to write clearly - so I'm going to do it for my kids. Until they BEG me to stop and prove many times they are capable on their own! :lol:

 

Here's an example of the paragraph my 8 year old wrote from the outline we made for the March of the Penguins DVD:

 

 

 

 

The Task of Love

 

 

 

 

By Emily

 

 

 

The Emperor Penguins mate and share the job of love. They choose a mate and waddle 70 miles to lay their egg. The female gently passes the egg to the male. Then the female goes home to search for food. Meanwhile, the chicks have hatched, but lots have died from the storms. The poor, poor males had to live off snow for 175 days. The female returns with gobs and gobs of food in her blubbery belly. The mother regurgitates some fish for the chick. Then the male goes to get food for himself. They return to the sea, each a different way, when the chicks are at least a bit independent. Although this task of love was hard, it was quite an adventure.

 

We don't usually make an outline of a DVD they've watched, but I had a lunch date and a hair appointment on Wednesday, so I let them watch the DVD while I was gone, and told them to pay attention so that we could write a paragraph about what they learned.

 

Lori

 

That's a GREAT paragraph for an 8 year old!!!!!!! Wow! Hey, the outline-a-DVD idea is probably useful every once in awhile, for listening to lectures. Great idea!

 

Thank you SOOOOOO much for your patience and explanations!

[iteachmine]

a couple of outlining workbooks for basic instruction. When my daughter was younger, they were very helpful. You can look at them here: http://www.rempub.com/Results.cfm?keywords=outlining

 

They were pretty inexpensive. You may even find them at a local teacher supply store.

[Jane Elliot]

Can you offer some more insight on teaching outlining, with the knowledge you've gained from these sources? R&S 5 teaches it paragraph by paragraph. WTM seems to teach it paragraph by paragraph, but it's more about laying out the text in logical order, so you may get info. from different paragraphs, or rearrange details to make sense. And I've heard that the SOTW4 AG does it more by the entire text, not paragraph by paragraph.

 

What kinds of questions would you ask the student to lead them to seeing the main idea vs. the supporting details? How do you lead the student through this process? Would you start off doing it paragraph by paragraph of a text that had clear paragraphs, then move on to picking out the overall main ideas and supporting details of a bigger chunk of text (such as a whole SOTW section)? I've been hashing this out with another poster through pm, and these are the things we are trying to figure out.

 

Thanks!

 

These are great questions. The holiday got so busy I couldn't sit down to type an answer earlier. I see now that several people have given very helpful answers that are better than any I could have given.

 

I honestly have just followed the resources I listed as they are written. With Kingfisher, I work with them at the beginning of each year on a few outlines, and then I have them do the outlines independently. I check over them to make sure they are doing their best job. I'm always uncertain as to whether or not we're getting the main points and details outlined correctly, but I think practicing and training the mind to think in this format is the most important thing, even if we don't always get it perfectly. Mr. Pudewa says (roughly paraphrased) in TWSS for Unit IV (I think) that having a child actually choose the most important facts to outline isn't nearly as essential as having them practice the act of choosing and discriminating. I hope that makes sense. If not, I can go back to see if I can find his quote, but I have about 30 people showing up for food and games in an hour, so I had best get off this board for now.

 

You ask great questions about the implementation of WTM, Colleen. I always enjoy your posts.

[Colleen in NS]

but I think practicing and training the mind to think in this format is the most important thing, even if we don't always get it perfectly. Mr. Pudewa says (roughly paraphrased) in TWSS for Unit IV (I think) that having a child actually choose the most important facts to outline isn't nearly as essential as having them practice the act of choosing and discriminating.

 

This totally makes sense, Luann. I read something like this in WTM, too, and I do get it. I think I just needed a little help in the "how to guide the thinking" dept. (esp. for myself first). I have a bit of a better plan now, and have a few options for tweaking as we go along. Always experimenting around here to see what works. As we all are.

 

I'm going to help ds outline a couple of times a week, and narrate a couple of times a week with the help of a few new things I learned about in WWE. With outlining, we had started awhile ago with 1 level outlining on paragraphs. I might do the demonstrating and showing sample outlines to partially fill in, and maybe even the Lego idea for fun. So we'll start again with one level outlines of paragraphs and maybe stay on that til June.....and I'll experiment with either moving to two level on paragraphs and maybe two level on longer passages. When 2 level on either becomes easy, then I'll start rewriting from outlines. I'll conquer this teaching writing thing yet! :)

 

You ask great questions about the implementation of WTM, Colleen. I always enjoy your posts.

 

:blush: Thank you. My questions are always in desperation to overcome what I didn't learn and want to teach my kids.

 

OP: hope you got some help out of all my questions and others' answers on your thread! :blushing:

[inashoe]

This is great to know - confirms my thinking about how to do this. Use easily outlineable paragraphs at first to do the outlining/rewriting a paragraph, then move on to articles - and not in a rush. Easy, so that they get the hang of it. I didn't even realize until just a few days ago that I should eventually teach them to outline the bigger picture of an article. !

 

I think my problem is finding the "easily outlineable paragraphs". KF is not easily outlineable. We get library books on a particular topic, this week Hatsheput - and as I look through the books we have none seem particularly easy.

[Kimber]

I wanted to teach outlining next year separate from our core subjects. And I found this great little book called Paragraph Writing Made Easy. It provides those easily outlined paragraphs. It teaches key word outlines for paragraphs as are in IEW, and it teaches traditional outlining with roman numerals and letters.

 

There are exercises that call for writing outlines, and then exercises that call for writing paragraphs from the outlines given. Suggested answers are in the back of the book.

 

It may not be what you want because there is some writing in addition the outlining. But the paragraph writing they teach is based on outlines.

 

I haven't started it yet, but I purchased it and will be using it this spring to supplement our writing lessons.

[Colleen in NS]

I think my problem is finding the "easily outlineable paragraphs". KF is not easily outlineable. We get library books on a particular topic, this week Hatsheput - and as I look through the books we have none seem particularly easy.

 

I know what you mean. The thing is, R&S (which is what we use for writing lessons, along with WTM suggestions) teaches outlining by telling you to look in the topic sentence for the main idea. Their paragraphs are all neatly written with topic sentences and supporting details. It's good, to give you the idea of how to do it. But "real life" books aren't so neat. This is why I've asked so many questions, so I can figure out how to learn/teach outlining on real life books, since this is what they'll be using for study later on anyway.

 

What I'm trying right now is scanning through whatever lib. books we have, or SOTW chapter, and finding a section of 4 to 6 paragraphs (that don't have dialog - why? - I don't know, I just don't know if you can outline them!! So I go for non-dialog paragraphs to make it easy for now). Paragraphs with maybe 3 to 5 sentences (sometimes more, if I can understand what the main idea so I can lead ds in finding it), that seem to be talking about details about something. If *I* can figure out what idea the paragraph is talking about, then I lead ds through figuring it out.

 

Yesterday I did this and it worked pretty well. After I found some paragraphs that I figured out the main idea in, I asked ds "so what details do you see in this?" He'd tell me. Then I'd ask, "So what idea are those details describing?" This has been the hardest part for me, because he'd try to sum up the details into a sentence. Finally yesterday it occurred to me to TELL him what the main idea was. MODEL IT! Oh, it finally dawned on me! So I did that for a few paragraphs after he told me some details, and he wrote the main idea down. Then, the next paragraph, I gave him one or two words that would hint at the main idea (and I told him the idea could be just a phrase - something else I just learned), and he caught on and filled in the phrase after seeing the details that supported it!! He was so excited, and so was I, that it didn't have to be as complicated as it was before, or so mysterious.

 

hth and don't give up! :)

[inashoe]

I think what you are saying is to guide him to sort out which facts are the supporting details and which is the main idea. we are going to keep trying KHE for a while and see if we can make that work. It is very fact intensive, which is probably what makes it difficult to find the main idea - there are just so many. If that doesn't work I will have to try lib books. WTM recommends a fifth grader do an outline and a notebook summary for history, I think we are going to just do the outline for now, until we have that figured out.

[Colleen in NS]

I think what you are saying is to guide him to sort out which facts are the supporting details and which is the main idea.

 

And the main idea is not always stated in the paragraph - this is why I'm trying picking out details and coming up with a main idea.

 

KHE......is very fact intensive, which is probably what makes it difficult to find the main idea - there are just so many.

 

This is what I found - there are so many facts crammed into one "paragraph," and many times they didn't gel into one main idea. A big reason I'm teaching outlining is to imitate good writing, and I didn't think KF was good writing - it's mostly a bunch of facts written. Which are interesting, and can give you info. on history, it's just that the style of writing is hard to imitate via outlining.