Middle School girl drama...vent

[teachermom2834]

My 11 yo dd as a girl in her dance class that physically and verbally pokes the other girls, especially my dd. Stuff like the teacher will give my dd a correction and the girl will keep repeating it to my daughter under her breath so that the teacher can't hear but dd can. Same girl will physically poke or kick my daughter when they are working at the barre and the teacher isn't looking. Just constant needling. 

Then my dd distances herself or ignores her and the girl goes all boo hoo crying to everyone that my dd is being mean to her. 

So frustrating. 

The teacher knows now and had seen enough of it to know it is this other girl instigating, not my dd.  So hopefully the situation will improve. But oh my goodness the drama that we have had. 

I cannot stand this stuff. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Can she say very loudly, "Stop saying that to me!" or "Stop kicking me!" so that it calls attention to what the girl is doing - every single time she does it? 

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Can she say very loudly, "Stop saying that to me!" or "Stop kicking me!" so that it calls attention to what the girl is doing - every single time she does it? 

Yes we are finally there. Dd has just been taking it but we finally have her standing up to her. But my dd had been reluctant to do that. One because she doesn't want to be disruptive but also because she doesn't want anyone in trouble even the offender. 

But my dd is fiesty and she is finally finding her voice and realizing she shouldn't just take it. 

At least my dd has a reputation as being a sweet encouraging girl so no one is really buying the story that my dd is the bully. Thankfully. I think everyone besides the other girl's mother gets it. 

[SKL]

My kids have a friend like that.  I do think most people know who the problem is.  But it's still annoying as this Friend will not stop.  My kid is one who will respond in kind rather than be a victim ... which can lead to other problems .....

 

 

[teachermom2834]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids have a friend like that.  I do think most people know who the problem is.  But it's still annoying as this Friend will not stop.  My kid is one who will respond in kind rather than be a victim ... which can lead to other problems .....

 

 

Yes, other problems...last night I told the teacher that it is possible at this point that my dd is being mean now that she is speaking up. She has a sharp wit and tongue and once she realizes she can use it, no promises she will keep it sweet.

Yes, just so annoying that so much drama involved in a simple FUN activity. Next week they are participating in a Christmas performance at a big mega church in town. I realize I am going to have to hang around all week just to make sure the celebration of baby Jesus doesn't turn into the Hunger Games. 

[SKL]

LOL we have tickets to see Mean Girls in the theater next weekend ... a little comic relief I hope ....

[Mbelle]

2 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

My 11 yo dd as a girl in her dance class that physically and verbally pokes the other girls, especially my dd. Stuff like the teacher will give my dd a correction and the girl will keep repeating it to my daughter under her breath so that the teacher can't hear but dd can. Same girl will physically poke or kick my daughter when they are working at the barre and the teacher isn't looking. Just constant needling. 

Then my dd distances herself or ignores her and the girl goes all boo hoo crying to everyone that my dd is being mean to her. 

So frustrating. 

The teacher knows now and had seen enough of it to know it is this other girl instigating, not my dd.  So hopefully the situation will improve. But oh my goodness the drama that we have had. 

I cannot stand this stuff. 

Oh we have BTDT.  For us it was swim team.  Exact same scenario.  Those kids are always good at sneaking.  What I have come to realize is that many many times their parents are also mean girls.  Ughh..I wish i had an answer.   I think for us it was finding a good friend group and not engaging with any meanies outside of what was absolutly necessary.

[Amy in NH]

I had this problem many years ago with my 2nd child in a homeschool art class.  The other kid would verbally and physically bully her until she lashed out, and dd would be the one to get caught fighting back; the instigator was an expert at stealthing the teacher.  After trying multiple remedies, including letting the teacher know, we finally quit the class. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Yup.

Totally LOL at the Hunger Games reference.

 

[catz]

My daughter is 15 now and hopefully past the worst of this garbage.  But I found the best things I did was teaching her defense.  

The calling it out immediately and loudly worked well in a class setting "Jane, do not touch me" "Jane, I cannot hear the teacher when you are talking." etc

Bullies lose their power when you don't react to their drama or let your buttons be pushed.  I think the ignoring is totally fine.  I've always taught my kids you don't have to have friendships with people who don't respect you.  And in life, you just don't need to be friends with everyone.  If anyone asks she can say plainly "Jane doesn't respect my personal space so I'm keeping my distance".

We also had a lot of discussions at house about why kids lash out or play mind games or bully.  I really think there is often a reason a kid is feeling a need to pick on another kid.  It might be jealously, or anxiety or self esteem or family issues or maybe the parents are bullies, tension at home, etc.  Anyway, I think emotionally healthy and well adjusted kids don't really feel the need to do this.  I do think emotions and hormones can be more volatile the middle school years and maturity levels can vary WIDELY those years and so I think those ages are particularly prone to this kind of behavior.  Anyway that was a lot of blah blah blah to say it takes away the power from the bully when you can call out the behavior for what it is.  I've even had her say in some circumstances "Hmmm Jane.  What is wrong with you?  You must be feeling really badly about yourself to act so immaturely."

I also think those frank discussions made it less likely that my kids will lash out like that.  I do think it's a fine line between responding appropriately and responding in kind.  But honestly, I'd rather have a kid that stands up for herself than one that feels like the victim all the time.  When my kids tell me about this stuff I go into problem solving mode with them and don't start in on the "oh you poor thing".  Learning not to get sucked into other people's drama is a great life skill and one I didn't fully get until I was an adult.  

[katilac]

When I taught groups of middle schoolers, it was usually easy enough to catch this kind of behavior if someone told me about it. I would make a show of not paying attention, while actually listening hard and watching the kids out of the corner of my eye (or in a mirror at a dance studio!). At that age, they are usually fairly embarrassed to have the teacher call them out:

"Jane, there is no reason to repeat after me." 

"Oh, um, I thought she didn't hear you . . . " 

"Let me worry about that. Please remember there is only one teacher in this class." 

The teacher doing it has a big impact ime, and the mom is much less likely to complain about it. But pushing back verbally herself, also a great idea. I like FuzzyCatz's response if Mean Girl whines about: "Jane doesn't respect my personal space (or whatever), so I'm keeping my distance." It annoys me when Jane repeats the teacher, when she pokes me, when she kicks me, and of course it can be said directly as well, "You aren't respecting my personal space, so I'm keeping my distance." 

If MG repeats the teacher, I think she should specifically say, "Jane, please stop repeating Ms. Teacher, I can hear her just fine." That's a better response than, "Jane, please stop saying that" because it's specific and it's obvious why she shouldn't be doing it. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by katilac

[kiwik]

I don't suppose it is a comfort but at least she isn't lashing out physically or verbally  and getting and getting blamed for upsetting or hurting poor sweet Jane who never causes any trouble.  It is so hard to present your child's case when they have flipped and thrown something at Jane.

I have tried getting them to say loudly "stop touching me" etc but it hasn't taken yet.  "Get your hands of my breasts you filthy pervert" is useful too.

 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

My daughter is 15 now and hopefully past the worst of this garbage.  But I found the best things I did was teaching her defense.  

The calling it out immediately and loudly worked well in a class setting "Jane, do not touch me" "Jane, I cannot hear the teacher when you are talking." etc

Bullies lose their power when you don't react to their drama or let your buttons be pushed.  I think the ignoring is totally fine.  I've always taught my kids you don't have to have friendships with people who don't respect you.  And in life, you just don't need to be friends with everyone.  If anyone asks she can say plainly "Jane doesn't respect my personal space so I'm keeping my distance".

We also had a lot of discussions at house about why kids lash out or play mind games or bully.  I really think there is often a reason a kid is feeling a need to pick on another kid.  It might be jealously, or anxiety or self esteem or family issues or maybe the parents are bullies, tension at home, etc.  Anyway, I think emotionally healthy and well adjusted kids don't really feel the need to do this.  I do think emotions and hormones can be more volatile the middle school years and maturity levels can vary WIDELY those years and so I think those ages are particularly prone to this kind of behavior.  Anyway that was a lot of blah blah blah to say it takes away the power from the bully when you can call out the behavior for what it is.  I've even had her say in some circumstances "Hmmm Jane.  What is wrong with you?  You must be feeling really badly about yourself to act so immaturely."

I also think those frank discussions made it less likely that my kids will lash out like that.  I do think it's a fine line between responding appropriately and responding in kind.  But honestly, I'd rather have a kid that stands up for herself than one that feels like the victim all the time.  When my kids tell me about this stuff I go into problem solving mode with them and don't start in on the "oh you poor thing".  Learning not to get sucked into other people's drama is a great life skill and one I didn't fully get until I was an adult.  

I wouldn't recommend ignoring a bully hoping they go away because they're not getting a response.  that was my mother's favorite tactic - I was bullied badly in jr. high - that just made things worse.  they'd simply up their game to get the response, and there were teachers who joined in.

those I actually confronted - backed down.  those that were embarrassed in front of the rest of the class, will find a new target.  (I love the guy who figured out his bully was afraid of heights. During lunch in the cafeteria - in front of everyone - he challenged the bully to a fight on the gym roof.  The bully never bothered him again.

While it is appropriate for adults to figure out why a child is a bully,  and try to help them - that burden shouldn't be placed upon the child being bullied.

[kiwik]

14 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I wouldn't recommend ignoring a bully hoping they go away because they're not getting a response.  that was my mother's favorite tactic - I was bullied badly in jr. high - that just made things worse.  they'd simply up their game to get the response, and there were teachers who joined in.

those I actually confronted - backed down.  those that were embarrassed in front of the rest of the class, will find a new target.  (I love the guy who figured out his bully was afraid of heights. During lunch in the cafeteria - in front of everyone - he challenged the bully to a fight on the gym roof.  The bully never bothered him again.

While it is appropriate for adults to figure out why a child is a bully,  and try to help them - that burden shouldn't be placed upon the child being bullied.

It assumes the bully will decide it is not worth it.  At best it causes them to find a weaker victim but in many cases it causes them to try harder.  Both ways it teaches the bullies they can bully without consequence and makes victims miserable.  It was the favourite response in my childhood too along with "the poor bully must have a terrible life".  That was true but making my life miserable wasn't making their life any better.  Perhaps the teachers and parents could have stepped in and helped both of us.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

It assumes the bully will decide it is not worth it.  At best it causes them to find a weaker victim but in many cases it causes them to try harder.  Both ways it teaches the bullies they can bully without consequence and makes victims miserable.  It was the favourite response in my childhood too along with "the poor bully must have a terrible life".  That was true but making my life miserable wasn't making their life any better.  Perhaps the teachers and parents could have stepped in and helped both of us.

 

and my response as an adult is: and? so?  how is that relevant to the fact they're making an innocent child miserable?  first - you protect the innocent, then you can try to help the bully.  not the other way around.    (there's a school in nyc that started a yoga class, it's really helped calm the kids who caused a lot of trouble. - participation was mandatory for trouble makers.)

ime: teachers generally just want the problem to go away, too many just don't want to deal with it.  my mother had been bullied in school - and her mother was a bully. (grandmother's bullying opened us up to being bullied by others.)

[SKL]

I agree that it seems teachers don't want to see what is really going on.

In 8th grade, I had a bully who was much bigger than me who would come and sit beside me (not her regular seat) and punch me repeatedly with the teacher standing right there.  In another class girls would sharpen numerous pencils, poke me with them, and dump the shavings on my head, all with the teacher sitting right there.  This happened daily for weeks if not months.  No teacher said anything until it came to a fistfight in the hall.  At that point, with hundreds of spectators hollering, it's hard to pretend you didn't notice.

My kids are now that age, and I can see the teachers dealing with things by twisting reality and punishing the easy targets (for alleged behaviors that either didn't happen or weren't the main issue).  Verbally, they tell me a different story, including that the main culprit is the daughter of a school board member.  So maybe this isn't totally unintentional.

[Guest]

On 12/4/2019 at 1:46 PM, Mbelle said:

Oh we have BTDT.  For us it was swim team.  Exact same scenario.  Those kids are always good at sneaking.  What I have come to realize is that many many times their parents are also mean girls.  Ughh..I wish i had an answer.   I think for us it was finding a good friend group and not engaging with any meanies outside of what was absolutly necessary.

I think this is a problem in girl groups in general. In our case, it was when DD moved from junior to senior in cheer. The difference between 12-13 yr olds being the oldest and generally being on their best behavior for the 7-8 yr olds and being the youngest seemed to bring this out. And yes, the worst offenders was the kids of the parents who would both call victim the quickest and tended to use the same tricks.  Plus coaches who said "you're a senior team now, work it out", while the junior coaches tended to keep an eye on things or turn it over to parents to monitor. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by dmmetler

[Mbelle]

3 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I think this is a problem in girl groups in general. In our case, it was when DD moved from junior to senior in cheer. The difference between 12-13 yr olds being the oldest and generally being on their best behavior for the 7-8 yr olds and being the youngest seemed to bring this out. And yes, the worst offenders was the kids of the parents who would both call victim the quickest and tended to use the same tricks.  Plus coaches who said "you're a senior team now, work it out", while the junior coaches tended to keep an eye on things or turn it over to parents to monitor. 

I guess this is a valid philosphy, but I don't like or really buy it.  I find it lazy coaching. My personal view is that young people need good guidance and leadership from adults.  Most young people need real guidance on conflict managment and the offenders don't learn anything valuable by being able to continue this nonsense and they need redirected in their desires to control, manipulate or whatever it is.  A good coach is so valuable in the development of youth.  My own children had some really great coaches that were invaluable in their formative years and development.  One of my children was on a negative team with bad coach (even though they were top) and I pulled them off the team.