Huge College where you are a Number vs Small College/University

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So, watching my ds navigate Penn State UP has been interesting.  He is doing great, and other than a few glitches it seems like it's a good fit.  However, I wonder if he would have been happier and had a better experience at a small university where profs know the names even of freshman.   

At any big school, you make the school smaller by 

• joining clubs
• attending office hourse
• attending group study sessions
• joining a Special Living Option
• stopping by the prof's desk to ask a quick question
• sitting in front
• answering questions and being involved in the class

My son has done all of these and for some of his classes, he know has a great repertoire with the prof, and for others he is still a number.  But, classes aren't the only thing at Big U's that are difficult to navigate when the crowd is 40,000 strong.  More examples include 

• Your adviser doesn't know you exist
• your adviser is a no-show even for scheduled visits
• you wait for walk in adviser hours and are told to get out because it's Friday afternoon...by the same lady who just told you that his scheduled adviser was a no -show, and the hours were clearly posted as being open Friday afternoon
• you can't get another appointment till after your registration date is already over
• Thus, basically, you are on your own to figure out your classes
• And all the upperclassmen say this is just the way it is, and good luck
• You can't get appointments for weeks at Health Services unless you call and speak to an advice nurse and she thinks it's urgent
• All entrance to major requirements include weed-out classes, so when you are admitted for a certain major you often have two entire years of extreme stress before you find out if you get to stay in the major....trying to maintain high GPA and working through weed out courses.  My daughter, even in her art major, would have a portfolio review after freshman year and would be kicked out of the major if she was not chosen as one of the limited few. 

Anyway, my son is fine and I think he really likes it nonetheless.  But I'm not sure a Big University is the best choice for every student.

I am thinking through this in regards to my youngest, to maybe limit to small universities.

Thoughts?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Calming Tea

[teachermom2834]

I have a son at a school of less than 1500 and one at a school with 35,000 undergrads so I have two extremes. My ds at the small school has really exploited that for all he could and it worked well for him. He can text his advisor on his personal cell to get help if needed- so the opposite of advisor not knowing he exists. He has contacts in the registrars office, the placement office, and he has his "financial aid guy" as  he calls him. It definitely has helped him navigate any administrative issues and helped him with professional development. However, if he was not of the personality to exploit the size of his school it would have just been a tiny school with limited opportunities. So, yes, the small school worked for him but he also worked it. KWIM ? Not every student will take advantage of that which brings me to my second son...

Second ds is at a huge university. He is also very decidedly NOT a joiner. So he isn't doing things like clubs to meet people and I don't think he spoke to a professor personally his entire first year on campus. It's just not him and he would not have done those things at a smaller university either. So, the smaller school probably wouldn't have benefited him at all. I will say that all large universities are not the same. I have been so surprised and happy with the level of student support available at my son's school. The school is very focused on student success and my ds has had no trouble with getting advising appointments or walk- ins. One time he had a hold on his registration that should not have been there and it was resolved in a matter of minutes. He has priority registration through the honors college and has always gotten the exact first choice schedule he wanted. He is taking an internship for credit next semester and he needed to get it approved and the approval came in about ten minutes (maybe 20?) after he submitted it. He had a roommate issue and once he put in a change request it was honored in less than day. He can walk in to the health center and get seen in a reasonable amount of time. He had to see an ENT one time and they took care of getting him in quickly for that. Lots of examples of a very student oriented experience. I really can't think of any big school frustrations that he has run into. If he had wanted to be more plugged into campus those opportunities certainly exist.

My third ds is a junior in high school and he wants to attend our state flagship. I'm bracing myself because I hear from other parents about all the frustrations and administrative issues they deal with there. I used to think that was just part of the size of the school but my second son's experience has shown me that some large schools are much better and more committed to serving their students. 

I just don't think there are generalizations that hold true for individual schools and individual students. 

[JenneinCA]

My daughter is at Northern Arizona Universtiy, 29,000 students.  And she isn’t having the problems your son is having.  Her advisor knows who she is and answers email usually within 24 hours.  I don’t think she has gotten much from walk in visits or anything scheduled but that is because it is all happening by email.  She doesn’t have issues with Health Services either, same day appointment are common and not usually an issue.  She did she nurse practitioners for the same day stuff but if it could wait a week then she could see the doctor.  Except for the time the np called the doctor anyway.  She isn’t having specific weed out classes, but she does have very difficult ones.  Everyone who passes gets to stay.  She is a civil engineering/German major so some heavy classes are involved.

My son is at a much much smaller school, about 5000 students.  His advisor isn’t helpful, but is a necessary person to work around.  He does have those issues with Health Services.  Thankfully he has only gotten sick once and the nurse got him an appointment  same day because he thought he had pneumonia.  He didn’t.  He transferred in so no weed out classes but plenty of difficult ones.

I think it depends on the school more than the size.

[Corraleno]

DS is also at a huge state university, but with the exception of long waits to use the health center, he has not had any of the other issues you describe. His classes are not that large — I think his largest has been ~40 and his smallest (so far) is 5. His professors all know his name and, with the exception of one (who I think was a TA or PostDoc), they have been very helpful and responsive, even replying to emails late at night and on weekends. His advisor knows him pretty well and has been really flexible about meeting him whenever he needs to see her, because the athletic department requires her to sign off on extra paperwork but his schedule makes it impossible for him to see her during her regular office hours. 

DS is not a STEM major though — I think that's where size may make a bigger difference. No weed-out classes, and he was able to jump into 300 & 400 level courses in his major even as a freshman. I think for majors where the degree requirements are pretty standard everywhere (like engineering or nursing), then a small school may have advantages, especially if the student can be admitted directly to the major and skip the weed-outs. But for a regular Arts & Sciences kid, a large university with lots of professors and a wide choice of courses in the chosen major (or a wide choice of majors for undecided kids) may be a better deal.

I attended a small LAC as an undergrad, with only 2 profs in my major, so my course choices were pretty much limited to whichever 1 or 2 courses they were teaching that semester that I hadn't already taken, which was definitely less than ideal. Then I went to UCLA for grad school and had so many choices of courses to take, professors to work with, relevant research projects to get involved with, etc. On the one hand I was thinking how amazing it would have been to have access to all of that as an undergrad, but in reality I was a super flakey 17 yr old when I started college, so I think a small LAC with minimal bureaucracy (because I changed my major umpteen times and was always dropping and adding courses, forgetting to sign scholarship paperwork, etc.) was probably better for me. :P 

[catz]

My kid is at a campus of 40K+ and was assigned an individual adviser and hasn't had these issues either.  He is double majoring in music so has a good rapport with several members of music faculty already as a first semester freshman.  I think that can be more challenging in some majors but he has made sure to show up to office hours of profs in other areas of particular interest even if he didn't necessarily need direct help with course work.  His other interests are lying in STEM this semester at least.  He has joined clubs and made some good choices to make his big campus smaller.  He is not partying (and I do know that for certain lol).   I am super impressed with the resources and opportunities available at this school.

I will also say, I fully expected him to be at a small school.  One perfect on paper LAC on the CTCL list struck us dumb with how rude and pretentious and  several members of faculty were during MULTIPLE visits in a particular department.  If you are at a small school in a small dept with only a couple faculty members in that area, well, if they aren't friendly, don't enjoy teaching, or don't click with you?  That might not be so great either.  So I almost think you need to be more careful choosing both academic, vibe and social fit on the smaller school side.

Honestly, almost every parent of a college student I know has a story about something.  I also think lessons and resilience can be learned in the adversity too and that's part of learning to adult.  I went to a large U for undergrad.  It was MUCH less user friendly than it is now actually.  I felt like I was a much more resourceful and resilient young adult as a new grad than many of my peers.    One of my son's BFF that launched to a small LAC this fall had HUGE issues with getting set up with housing (ETA - another CTCL school).  College of less than 2000.  Schools of all sizes can have their issues and their glitches.  I wouldn't be so fast to stereotype one over the other I guess.  I also know kids who chose a small school in a rural area and were just completely burned out on the environment before graduation.  But certainly there are kids that lose their footing at large schools and leave.  My son is actually worried his roomie is not going to make it into next semester.  But if you aren't willing to show up to class and put the work in?  I also think that happens at a small school too.  

Edited November 8, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

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This has been super helpful! I mistakenly assumed that being at a smaller U would erase some of those logistical issues.  My dd also pointed out that although she loves her co-op, next year she will be super more than ready to try something new, and she has already tried many of things here locally, etc.  She pointed out that a large U will have a lot more interesting things going on and probably take a long long time before the students feel ready to leave.

[RootAnn]

There is always the Baby Bear "just right" size college. And that differs by kid's personality as others have said.

My dd#1 thought she wanted something in the less-than-5,000 range. The college she did DE at was small (3500) and her #1 pick at the beginning of senior year had 5,000 undergrads. Her #2 & 3 were more like 9,000 and 60,000. After visiting, she felt like her "just right" was the 9,000 (which is actually just under 10,000 but she was going off old data) school.

Definitely depends on the school. I'm a big proponent of checking out what the current students complain about during the application process. Parking is a universal problem, BTW. :) 

[easypeasy]

My DD is at a relatively small university and has had many of the issues you describe. Her adviser knows who she is, but the # of times she's shown up for appointments (professors, advisers, athletic trainers) and they've forgotten about it has been staggering. Her day-to-day schedule is super-packed and when these thoughtless "professionals" blow her off like that, it always causes a downward spiral on everything else she has lined up for the week. She can't "just show up" on a different day because of other commitments and it has really soured her experience. 😕

Luckily (...?) she's only one of about 8 undergrads at the school with her major, so getting in for classes is never a problem.  😂 The director sort of does a poll to see which classes those 8 need the next semester and they offer whatever classes make the most sense to the most students.

[SanDiegoMom]

My dd is at a large university and the advising has been very seamless -- i think she's been multiple times to different advisors - both gen ed level and Poli Sci specific.  She can call and email and gets a response within a day or two. 

Appointments at the health clinic are sometimes hard to get for specialty care, but if she is just plain sick they have walk-in appts all day -- you can even drop by or call in the morning to schedule a walk in and come back later.  No issues. She had to wait awhile for allergy testing, but that would have been the same at home.

Their mental health services ARE swamped, but she finagled her way into the more permanent services offered at the hospital and now she has excellent care. 

She has been to office hours and her TA's all know here this quarter for sure (she's had some health issues and missed a steady stream of classes and work) and she's successfully gotten notes, extensions, and accommodations through the CAE office. 

This is her third year, though. First year she was still just staying afloat and trying to navigate without anyone holding her hand, having no friends and hating her roommates.  So at that time if she had had the health issues she probably would have had more trouble staying afloat.  It is still sink or swim for sure.

Oh and for many majors you apply AS that major --so even though she hadn't been officially accepted to her major, they had enough room and there was no question she would get it. But she could not officially declare her major until she had met all the prerequisites for the major. That's pretty standard.  

[Lanny]

My DD is very happy at UNC.  I believe that one should not lump all large schools into seeing all the students as a number, or that all small schools are going to hold the students hand all the time. Universities with a large student body can also provide  wonderful help and opportunities to their students.  One thing that came as a surprise to me was that DD signed up for Swimming 2, which was a mistake, because she hadn't been swimming for a long time. Hopefully she will take Swimming 1 and not be in "over her head" next semester. She dropped Swimming 2  and joined a Martial Arts club. Well, in addition to learning the Martial Art, the club works as volunteers occasionally and is hosting a regional get together for people from Martial Arts clubs in other schools in that region. So, she is getting in some Volunteer work and providing hospitality, along with the Martial Arts classes.  She is working part-time in a university job.  Her roommate is wonderful, which is truly a blessing. We are not sure if a human or a computer selected her roommate, but truly wonderful for our DD and for her roommate.  Both of them are from Tropical areas and new to the USA. Her roommate is an International student and DD is an Overseas American, so they have a lot in common and are going to learn what Cold weather is like, together.  

[Kate in Arabia]

12 hours ago, Lanny said:

My DD is very happy at UNC.  I believe that one should not lump all large schools into seeing all the students as a number, or that all small schools are going to hold the students hand all the time. Universities with a large student body can also provide  wonderful help and opportunities to their students.  One thing that came as a surprise to me was that DD signed up for Swimming 2, which was a mistake, because she hadn't been swimming for a long time. Hopefully she will take Swimming 1 and not be in "over her head" next semester. She dropped Swimming 2  and joined a Martial Arts club. Well, in addition to learning the Martial Art, the club works as volunteers occasionally and is hosting a regional get together for people from Martial Arts clubs in other schools in that region. So, she is getting in some Volunteer work and providing hospitality, along with the Martial Arts classes.  She is working part-time in a university job.  Her roommate is wonderful, which is truly a blessing. We are not sure if a human or a computer selected her roommate, but truly wonderful for our DD and for her roommate.  Both of them are from Tropical areas and new to the USA. Her roommate is an International student and DD is an Overseas American, so they have a lot in common and are going to learn what Cold weather is like, together.  

 

My ds is sending regular weather updates, including pics and videos.. we moved here when he was 2, so he has no memory of snow or cold at all and is getting a real kick out of the weather...  it's fun to witness him experiencing it for the first time.

 

My two boys are in the same city, but one is going to a large, public university (abt 23,000 students) and the other is at a small, private one (abt 4000 students).  I can see positives and negatives to both, and as has been mentioned it can really depend on the individual student and of course the school.  In our case I think the larger one has broader opportunities and course selections, and more connections with the city (for example, students can use public transport anywhere around the city for free); but the smaller one has its own benefits especially for my ds, who came straight from growing up in another culture, always homeschooled - he preferred a smaller univ, and I believe is happy to be in a more "cloistered" (for lack of a better word) environment.

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22 hours ago, Lanny said:

My DD is very happy at UNC.  I believe that one should not lump all large schools into seeing all the students as a number, or that all small schools are going to hold the students hand all the time. Universities with a large student body can also provide  wonderful help and opportunities to their students.  One thing that came as a surprise to me was that DD signed up for Swimming 2, which was a mistake, because she hadn't been swimming for a long time. Hopefully she will take Swimming 1 and not be in "over her head" next semester. She dropped Swimming 2  and joined a Martial Arts club. Well, in addition to learning the Martial Art, the club works as volunteers occasionally and is hosting a regional get together for people from Martial Arts clubs in other schools in that region. So, she is getting in some Volunteer work and providing hospitality, along with the Martial Arts classes.  She is working part-time in a university job.  Her roommate is wonderful, which is truly a blessing. We are not sure if a human or a computer selected her roommate, but truly wonderful for our DD and for her roommate.  Both of them are from Tropical areas and new to the USA. Her roommate is an International student and DD is an Overseas American, so they have a lot in common and are going to learn what Cold weather is like, together.  

 

Awesome!! My ds is super happy at Penn State, and has had many great experiences (notwithstanding the frustrations with advisers.) Awesome room mate, three awesome clubs, professors that know his name and take him aside to suggest connections for him, events etc. I don't want to give it a bad rap!  

But in honing on on some of the frustrations, it's important for me to ask questions regarding my next one coming up.  Turns out, I was off base anyway. Smaller doesn't necessarily mean that they have everything figured out and streamlined...so I guess it has more to do with where the kid just wants to go and feels comfortable going to.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Calming Tea

[MerryAtHope]

My ds is at a school of around 20,000, and transferred in as a junior, so he has very few large classes. The prof's for his major and for his foreign language class all know him.

• Your adviser doesn't know you exist - that's probably true for my son's "college" adviser (college of liberal arts) but his "major" adviser knows him.
• your adviser is a no-show even for scheduled visits - that's awful! Hasn't happened for ds.
• you wait for walk in adviser hours and are told to get out because it's Friday afternoon...by the same lady who just told you that his scheduled adviser was a no -show, and the hours were clearly posted as being open Friday afternoon - WOW! again, hasn't happened.
• you can't get another appointment till after your registration date is already over
• Thus, basically, you are on your own to figure out your classes - here they warned both students and parents at orientation to go to advising a month before and avoid the rush at my son's school! I also think much of the time, students can figure out classes w/o advisers unless there's something really tricky involved. 
• And all the upperclassmen say this is just the way it is, and good luck - wow!
• You can't get appointments for weeks at Health Services unless you call and speak to an advice nurse and she thinks it's urgent - :-(. That's a shame. DS hasn't had to use Health Services yet.
• All entrance to major requirements include weed-out classes, so when you are admitted for a certain major you often have two entire years of extreme stress before you find out if you get to stay in the major....trying to maintain high GPA and working through weed out courses.  My daughter, even in her art major, would have a portfolio review after freshman year and would be kicked out of the major if she was not chosen as one of the limited few. - that does sound stressful. Hasn't been an issue with ds's major. I know some majors are much more competitive than others, and I think Fine arts does tend to be that way. 

[wintermom]

I guess it's partly a question of your expectations, your individual needs, the classes/program you want, and where you want to live.  I went to a really big university in my undergrad, and never had need to talk to an advisor until I wanted to take a term off to travel. It was easily done. Later, when I needed to alter my program requirements, the professor was more than accommodating.  

My ds is taking a course at a large university and another course at a very small college. He enjoys them both. When he was recently concussed and needed advice on how to proceed, both universities were very helpful. The small one had less "red tape," but essentially the options/solutions were exactly the same for both. 

[...................]

Yeah, it's stressful 🙂 But if they make it through they have an amazing program.  If not, they have lots of other majors to choose from 🙂 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Calming Tea

[wintermom]

I was going to add a funny comment about being simply "a number" at large universities.  When I was applying to go back to university for a graduate diploma last year, I had to phone my old uni for my undergrad transcripts. All the recent stuff is on-line, but stuff from the 1980s isn't. My student number was so small that they had to add a few zeros onto it.  My student ID from the uni where I'd done my Master's didn't bother adding zeros. I just had the shortest, easiest number to remember! That's a good thing when you're as old as the hills and still in school. 😂