Is this normal for a Calculus class in college, also what can we do?

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My son is taking Calc 2 at community college...he is really struggling,

The weird thing is he took Calc 1 over the summer, got an A and has retained it all.  The teacher was organized, thorough, with awesome notes.

This teacher introduced 32 formulas and told the class "Some of these will need to be used on the test tomorrow but I am not telling you which ones" and then when my son took the test he was pretty sure he missed a few of the problems because of not having those formulas memorized.  The teacher is from India and she has said numerous times that she views American academics (and students) are basically weaklings and it is her job to teach these students how to work harder and expect a demanding style of learning.  

She does not give partial credit. OK, that's fine I get that.  But she also TAKES EXTRA points off if the students get it wrong.  IN other words she has told them if they can't get it right they are better of leaving it blank so they don't waste her time.  

To me this is a very discouraging and disheartening approach.

Would this be something that he should talk to the dean about?  

[Roadrunner]

Test shouldn’t be a “gotcha” moment. It’s a way to make sure kids learned what you taught in the class. A list of formulas to memorize and not knowing which ones? 

I would be very upset with a teacher who views a test as a punitive instrument. What does she mean by “waste my time?” She gets paid to “waste her time” and correct mistakes. Why would she assume every mistake is due to guessing? That’s crazy. 

I am sorry he is dealing with this. I have never heard of such attitude personally.

[regentrude]

Can you be more specific? Normally in calc 2, no formulas are memorized at all. What topic are they studying?

Not telling students the exact content of the exam is normal in college. It's not high school where all you had to do was memorize the study guide. Instructors should tell students over which chapter of the material they are tested.

Taking off points for incorrect work is normal. How else would one grade? Maybe I  misunderstand.

Edited September 20, 2018 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

I thought if you leave blank you get taken off x amount of points, but if you miss you get penalized by taking off more. 

I have never had a teacher do that in college.

i know SAT subject tests do that though.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Roadrunner

[RootAnn]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Taking off points for incorrect work is normal. How else would one grade? Maybe I  misunderstand.

I believe the grading was not just to take off points for missing the question but extra ones for answering a question that she felt you should have skipped. Think the old way SATs were scored or the way SAT Subject tests penalize guessing (if you guess wrong). So, if all problems are worth 10 points, she would take off 12 or 14. 

[RootAnn]

As far as what can you do, I would see if he could switch teachers. If not, gut it out, write a review on rate your professor, and check rate your professor before signing up for any more classes there.

[regentrude]

22 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I thought if you leave blank you get taken off x amount of points, but if you miss you get penalized by taking off more. 

I have never had a teacher do that in college.

i know SAT subject tests do that though.

Oh I see. I  have often fantasized about doing that when grading pages full of random gibberish that ARE wasting everybody's time. Giving points for leaving it blank instead of putting random nonsense seems very appealing 

[...................]

44 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Can you be more specific? Normally in calc 2, no formulas are memorized at all. What topic are they studying?

Not telling students the exact content of the exam is normal in college. It's not high school where all you had to do was memorize the study guide. Instructors should tell students over which chapter of the material they are tested.

Taking off points for incorrect work is normal. How else would one grade? Maybe I  misunderstand.

 

No one is asking her to tell them what's on the exam.  The question I have, is whether it's normal to introduce 32 new formulas and then give the exam that's supposed to be using them the next day.  THis is not what your University would likely consider Calc 2.  I think it's different with community college.  So maybe that's why the content is different?  

She is not just taking off points for incorrect work.  She is taking off more points for it being wrong, than if they had left it blank.  

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

No one is asking her to tell them what's on the exam.  The question I have, is whether it's normal to introduce 32 new formulas and then give the exam that's supposed to be using them the next day.  THis is not what your University would likely consider Calc 2.  I think it's different with community college.  So maybe that's why the content is different?  

Calculus 2 is a pretty standard canon; the course usually covers integration techniques, whether it is a university or at community college. To various depth and difficulties, sure, but calculus is calculus.

I am still not clear what "introduce 32 new formulas" means - so I cannot judge whether that is normal or not. I cannot see any situation where students would memorize formulas in calculus 2 at all.  there could be 32 functions she integrated in class and the objective could be to understand the integration technique.  Could you tell me what the topic is? 

Edited September 21, 2018 by regentrude

[almondbutterandjelly]

This isn't the old sin^2 + cos^2 = 1 formula, and you can derive a bunch of the others from that is it?  That's the only thing I can think of.  You really only have to memorize that one and maybe some double angle formulas.

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

This isn't the old sin^2 + cos^2 = 1 formula, and you can derive a bunch of the others from that is it?  That's the only thing I can think of.  You really only have to memorize that one and maybe some double angle formulas.

Yes, if those "formulas" are the trigonometry identities, it is reasonable for the instructor to expect students to know these from their precalculus/trigonometry which is a prerequisite for calculus. And using the exponential notation of the trig functions makes deriving very quick and simple. I see no problem with that.

[...................]

45 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Calculus 2 is a pretty standard canon; the course usually covers integration techniques, whether it is a university or at community college. To various depth and difficulties, sure, but calculus is calculus.

I am still not clear what "introduce 32 new formulas" means - so I cannot judge whether that is normal or not. I cannot see any situation where students would memorize formulas in calculus 2 at all.  there could be 32 functions she integrated in class and the objective could be to understand the integration technique.  Could you tell me what the topic is? 

He says the topic is Hyperbolic Functions.  So yes they are in some way related to the Trigonomic Identities 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

He says the topic is Hyperbolic Functions.  So yes they are in some way related to the Trigonomic Identities 

Then the only thing they need to memorize are the definitions of sinh and cosh (which are completely analogous to the definitions of sin and cosine in exponential form). Everything else is derived extremely quickly through manipulating the exponential functions. It is possible to write down a page full of formulas of various identities students may need to use, but really, all they need is to understand the laws of exponents (which they know from prealgebra). 

Edited September 21, 2018 by regentrude

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Yes he is now smacking himself.  He did not even realize they were related to the Trigonomic Identities.  

As a mom, I am telling him to next time LOOK IT UP that night and see if there is something on this topic that you're missing.  He was trying to memorize them cold and got so overwhelmed they just jumbled in his head. Now he's saying, if he had realized they were related he definitely would have done much better. Too bad.

[...................]

I think half the problem with him in this class is that he is feeling the pressure of wanting to transfer/get into as freshman/ college next year. He's truly concerned about his grade, and this teacher is constantly blustering and blowing speech about being hard or saying things that just make him think it's harder, even than it really is.

According to him she said verbatim that she hopes they can memorize fast! and never hinted at them being related to the Trig Identities. He admist he should have seen that himself of course.

[amyx4]

My ds took Cal I & II as a DE student at the StateU.  Ds always, always suggests getting a tutor for Calculus.  Get a tutor that took Calc with the same professor that your son has this semester. My ds says that tutoring isn't just about the the subject matter. The tutor will know what the particular professor expects from a student.

When he went to tutoring, no one even asked if he was a DE student. Tutoring was free at that StateU.

[Lilaclady]

I think what he needs to do ASAP is to go to the instructor's office hours and meet with her. If she does not have an office hour, he should email her ASAP and ask if he can meet with her after class as he needs some help. He should also seek out tutoring if available but he needs to have some face time with the instructor to understand what she wants and how she tests. 

[katilac]

19 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

I think what he needs to do ASAP is to go to the instructor's office hours and meet with her. If she does not have an office hour, he should email her ASAP and ask if he can meet with her after class as he needs some help. He should also seek out tutoring if available but he needs to have some face time with the instructor to understand what she wants and how she tests. 

 

I'm normally all about office hours, but I'm not sure it would help in this case. If the student is reporting accurately, the teacher is deliberately obscuring expectations. 

When weird stuff like the 32 formulas comes up, I would definitely share it with other people (not in his class). Somebody who hasn't just been sent into a panic about the test is more likely to recognize that, hey, this is not actually 32 new formulas, think about it for a minute . . . 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

When weird stuff like the 32 formulas comes up, I would definitely share it with other people (not in his class). Somebody who hasn't just been sent into a panic about the test is more likely to recognize that, hey, this is not actually 32 new formulas, think about it for a minute . . . 

If they discuss it among students in the class, there is bound to be a person who realizes that it's not actually 32 formulas.

OP: is your DS part of a class groupme? My students all have groupme's for their classes where they help each other with homework and studying

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On 9/20/2018 at 7:17 PM, amyx4 said:

My ds took Cal I & II as a DE student at the StateU.  Ds always, always suggests getting a tutor for Calculus.  Get a tutor that took Calc with the same professor that your son has this semester. My ds says that tutoring isn't just about the the subject matter. The tutor will know what the particular professor expects from a student.

When he went to tutoring, no one even asked if he was a DE student. Tutoring was free at that StateU.

 

Yes we have told him to teach our to the prof and see if anyone in this class can tutor. 

 

unfortunately the 

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Reg,

This class has in-class partners but not groups via email or groupme. 

 

Calc 1 had four per group and a groupme type thing and it was so much better!

[Lanny]

On one hand, I believe the teacher is out of line to express her feelings about Americans like that. Her salary is paid for by the taxpayers.  On the other hand, there are probably A LOT of people, from Asia and  in Asia, who have the same feelings, although they do not express them, as openly as she did.

Your son has learned a valuable lesson. The lesson is to try to understand what the problem is and not make it more complicated than it is.

Sometimes, one needs to go back to the basics, to get the solution to a problem.

[Mbelle]

I do not know anything about calculus.  However, I do know bigotry when I hear it.  I'm wondering how well it would go if an American teacher started saying Indians (or any other culture group) are so....fill in the blank.  I would certainly record that and take it to the appropriate office.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Mbelle said:

I do not know anything about calculus.  However, I do know bigotry when I hear it.  I'm wondering how well it would go if an American teacher started saying Indians (or any other culture group) are so....fill in the blank.  I would certainly record that and take it to the appropriate office.

 

I also think often people from other countries come from their own elite institutions and completely misunderstand our system. CC isn’t Caltech. There is and should be difference between the level of rigor. I know Bay Area is full of immigrants from India and many of them are graduates of IIT, which is basically Indian MIT. Now if they were to go teach at MIT, they probably won’t be making those comments, but they don’t understand that the goals of CC are somewhat different that elite educational institutions. 

Mans I agree that those comments are beyond inappropriate. 

[rdj2027]

Ouch!  I had a teacher like that for calculus in high school (11th grade), also from India.  I can't remember how often we heard that we were inferior to students in India, that we were not working as hard and he had to dumb down the class for us or none of us would pass.  This was in the late 80's at a private school in Germany.  Part of the problem was that his accent was so bad, that most of us could not understand a word he said.  I did encounter the same attitude again in college in the US in the mid-90's(calc 2) including the heavy accent.  The difference was that in college there were several lecture and recitation sections and so I attended the lectures with a professor I liked and switched to a recitation that nobody wanted (Saturday mornings at 7:30).

[regentrude]

9 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I also think often people from other countries come from their own elite institutions and completely misunderstand our system. CC isn’t Caltech. There is and should be difference between the level of rigor. I know Bay Area is full of immigrants from India and many of them are graduates of IIT, which is basically Indian MIT. Now if they were to go teach at MIT, they probably won’t be making those comments, but they don’t understand that the goals of CC are somewhat different that elite educational institutions. 

Yes, I think it is likely a lack of experience with our educational system - not just university vs CC, but also the state of the high school education. When I started teaching at the 4 year university here, I was appalled and frustrated that the level of the classes we were teaching was far below the level of the equivalent classes I myself had taken as a freshman at a generic run of the mill German university.  It took me several years to realize that their high school education leaves the average student less prepared (the high school math education is often pitiful, a large number of students never took physics in high school, etc.) And yes, the stronger students have been short changed and were never challenged in school. 

So, I can totally see where the teacher is coming from and that she may simply lack that insight into the root of the problems. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by regentrude

[...................]

Well my sons goal this week is going to be to put together his own informal groupme group, by approaching and offering a few students to be part of it. 

Whether he follows through with this plan is to be seen, but I think it’s a good one. 

We also now have the hard copy of a Calculus book Arcadia recommended so that he has a physical copy to reference.

the teacher last class said several students reported her to the dean (it wasn’t my son) and rather than be concerned she took it as a badge of honor that she is scaring them into a panic.

Oh well. I guess my son just needs to forge on as best he can. 

 

 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

Well my sons goal this week is going to be to put together his own informal groupme group, by approaching and offering a few students to be part of it. 

Whether he follows through with this plan is to be seen, but I think it’s a good one. 

Excellent. My students passed around a phone for signing up in my smaller class (45);  in the larger class (500) they are more selective and have several groupmes going. It's a great tool if used right.

 

[Arcadia]

15 hours ago, regentrude said:

So, I can totally see where the teacher is coming from and that she may simply lack that insight into the root of the problems. 

 

I’ll delete later as it’s easy to locate the college in question with below info. (ETA: deleted obvious identifiers of location)

There is a local context to this teacher’s opinion. The public high school nearby “produces” many USAMO and USAPhO qualifiers, offers AP Calculus BC and beyond as well as AP Physics. The area the community college is located in is a heavy math enrichment area, middle income and relatively significant number of Asians. It is considered one of the academic powerhouse areas.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

6 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

Well my sons goal this week is going to be to put together his own informal groupme group, by approaching and offering a few students to be part of it. 

 

I think people’s schedule for fall tends to be more complicated than for summer term. If Groupme doesn’t work out, maybe check if your daughter’s math tutor can help your son before or after your daughter’s tuition?

[amyx4]

On 9/24/2018 at 10:44 AM, Calming Tea said:

Well my sons goal this week is going to be to put together his own informal groupme group, by approaching and offering a few students to be part of it. 

Whether he follows through with this plan is to be seen, but I think it’s a good one. 

We also now have the hard copy of a Calculus book Arcadia recommended so that he has a physical copy to reference.

the teacher last class said several students reported her to the dean (it wasn’t my son) and rather than be concerned she took it as a badge of honor that she is scaring them into a panic.

Oh well. I guess my son just needs to forge on as best he can. 

 

 

I think studying with other Calc students is a good idea. However, I want to following up on something. My ds would still strongly suggest that your son still get a tutor from the tutoring center on campus. Your son should look for a tutor that's had this professor. 

[Roadrunner]

23 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

There is a local context to this teacher’s opinion. The public high school nearby “produces” many USAMO and USAPhO qualifiers,

 Along with many suicidal kids. 

I know which area you are talkig about. It’s still no excuse for condescension.

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 Along with many suicidal kids. 

I know which area you are talkig about. It’s still no excuse for condescension.

 

It’s not the suicidal kids one if you are thinking Palo Alto. There is no suicide cluster in this district. The part I deleted would have given out the exact high school name through any search engine. 

I was replying to Regentrude that in this case, the public schools near this community college are not impoverish. I wasn’t excusing the teacher’s behavior.

[...................]

Today the teacher announced that she is going to give the students extra chances to correct their mistakes and they will receive half points, if correct.  I feel this is very generous and he is lucky someone went to the dean.

He is going to try the Math Center on campus.  Sadly however, at a two year college very few students take Calc 2 or Calc 3, and then they leave and graduate.  So we are not feeling super confident that they'll have a tutor for Calc 2 ? But we will see.

[...................]

Oh yeah, no the public schools surrounding this community college are extremely good, and extremely rich.  Extremely.

But you still have a mix of people in community college.  YOu have kids who are using it as an alternative to the usual path (my kid), he has multiple veterans there, and there is a good grouping of kids who did very well in high school but couldn't get into the college they wanted and didn't have the money for private college.  Many kids are also in a similar boat to my son where the income is high right at this moment, but has never ever been before, so they could not save for many years for college, but now do not qualifty for a single penny of any kind of aid, not even loans except the un-subsidized ones and Parent Plus.  One girl he met last year went to a very good private high school, didn't get into a fantastic public U and her parents could not get the loans, so she ended up last second at community college.  He has three veterans in his class as well, very smart gifted men who served our country for as much as 6 years and really want to do sometihng in the medical or Eng. field...but it's been a bumpy road for them getting back into doing math...

There are all kinds of people. ? 

[Arcadia]

Deleted identifying info ?

Edited September 25, 2018 by Arcadia

[...................]

Thanks, I know exactly which school you must be talking about ?

 

[Arcadia]

See if anything on this link might be helpful. This the only teacher I have found so far that has a class webpage for Math 3B. The homework for Math 3A and Math 3B has the answer key at the end of each homework pdf. 

http://www.berkeleycitycollege.edu/wp/kpernell/spring-12-classes/math-3b-calculus-ii/

“

• • Previous Course Resources
    • Math 203 Intermediate Algebra
      • Math 203 Resources
    • Math 1 Precalculus
      • Precalculus Resources
      • Final Exam Practice
    • Math 50 Trigonometry
      • About the Hybrid Course
      • Trig Practice Exercises
      • Trig Resources
    • Math 2 Precalculus with Analytic Geometry
      • Math 2 Precalc Homework
  • Fall 2018 Classes
    • Math 3A Calculus
      • 3A Homework
      • Calculus I Resources
    • Math 3B Calculus II
      • 3B Homework
      • Calculus II Resources
        • 3B Spr 18 Lecture Notes

• Bookmarks

  • Math 3A Calculus I
  • Math 3B Calculus II”

[amyx4]

15 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

He is going to try the Math Center on campus.  Sadly however, at a two year college very few students take Calc 2 or Calc 3, and then they leave and graduate.  So we are not feeling super confident that they'll have a tutor for Calc 2 ? But we will see.

 

I completely understand. My ds took all of his DE classes at community college.  The only DE he did at the StateU was Calc I & II for the same reasons you have listed.

[aprilleigh]

I've looked at the syllabus and schedule, and this is very typical for Calc 2. However, the condescending attitude is completely inappropriate. I'd have been reprimanded for that in a heartbeat.

Edited October 12, 2018 by aprilleigh