Asking for a friend: unstable elder

[regentrude]

Asking for a friend who is concerned about her father.

After a stroke 3 years ago, father shows signs of irrational, compulsive behavior. He suddenly became an obsessive collector of saddles in which he never had any prior interest and spent $2,000 in the past six weeks. They don't have horses. He bids on auctions and when he wins often cannot remember that he bid. When he doesn't win he cannot remember whether he paid for the item or not.

He falls asleep in the middle of getting up from a chair.

He is irritable, has a history of abusive and violent behavior. He has guns stashed all over the house, carries a gun in his truck, grabbed his gun on a recent occasion to stuff it in his pants.

Friend is wondering whether to bring it up with father's doctors, but is afraid that he will find out and become violent towards her mom (because he would think she told on him). he blames wife for everything. Internet goes out - wife must have "done something". They are all afraid of him. Friend is 600 miles away. Siblings are dysfunctional and no help.

Is there anything she can do? If it matters: they are in PA.

Edited September 6, 2018 by regentrude

[Pen]

Oh dear.  

I would think an anonymous call to senior services for their area, or even to the police,  might be more needed.  Anything could get out of hand and result in violence, but so could doing nothing very, very  likely result in violence. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Doctors need to know about personality changes regardless of the possibility of blaming. And that gun needs to be “lost” for everyone’s protection. I know that it is hard but verbal blaming is preferable to him using a gun. 

Also - he is at a point where he can’t be responsible for their money. A doctor is the first step though because there could be medications that are off and are contributing to this or medications that are needed to help stabilize him. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I would immediately call the father's non-emergency local police number, explain the situation, and ask them how to proceed. (Now he's on their radar.) I would also contact father's doctor immediately and ask how to proceed. I would insist on getting mom out of that house yesterday. The man has a history of abuse, owns lots of hidden guns,  and now his brain is damaged in parts that control rational thought and impulse control.  This is at very high risk for ending badly.

Friend needs to understand that getting mom to safety first, getting rid of the weapons second, and having dad declared incompetent to make his own decisions are critical. I personally know someone whose father went off the deep end and murdered his girlfriend with a shot gun then killed himself. These kinds of things really do happen and friend's dad is a very likely candidate.  Friend doesn't want to be part of the news story that says, "Well there were all these obvious signs and people tut tutted about it, but no one actually did anything about it, like letting the doctor and police know, and now Granny is dead and maybe a neighbor who heard some arguing and came to check if everyone was alright."

[regentrude]

36 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Doctors need to know about personality changes regardless of the possibility of blaming. And that gun needs to be “lost” for everyone’s protection. I know that it is hard but verbal blaming is preferable to him using a gun.

yes, I thought so too about the doctors.

The problem is that there are multiple guns hidden all over the house. Friend and mother are afraid of him. This is not about verbal abuse; he will turn physically violent when he finds one missing. She is afraid for her mother's physical safety. And no, mother will not leave him; she endured abuse for 45 years.

[regentrude]

19 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I would immediately call the father's non-emergency local police number, explain the situation, and ask them how to proceed. (Now he's on their radar.) I would also contact father's doctor immediately and ask how to proceed. I would insist on getting mom out of that house yesterday. The man has a history of abuse, owns lots of hidden guns,  and now his brain is damaged in parts that control rational thought and impulse control.  This is at very high risk for ending badly.

Friend needs to understand that getting mom to safety first, getting rid of the weapons second, and having dad declared incompetent to make his own decisions are critical. I personally know someone whose father went off the deep end and murdered his girlfriend with a shot gun then killed himself. These kinds of things really do happen and friend's dad is a very likely candidate.  Friend doesn't want to be part of the news story that says, "Well there were all these obvious signs and people tut tutted about it, but no one actually did anything about it, like letting the doctor and police know, and now Granny is dead and maybe a neighbor who heard some arguing and came to check if everyone was alright."

The mother has been making excuses for the father's abusive behavior for 45 years and has been trying to hide the worst of it from her kids.

The mother will.not.leave.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Depending on a lot of variables that I don't know - age of  both mother and father, overall health levels etc., there might be a point where mother's removal could be framed as a health thing for her - that she needs to be in a place where she gets more hands on care.  The abuse doesn't always have to be met head on. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

The mother has been making excuses for the father's abusive behavior for 45 years and has been trying to hide the worst of it from her kids.

The mother will.not.leave.

 

The father may need to be placed on a ___hour psych hold .  During that, possibly the mother can be persuaded. He sounds like he is a danger to others (not just the mother but random others too perhaps) which tends to be a factor that can result in an involuntary hold  

Anyone doing a welfare check on either the mother or father needs to know about the guns etc for their own safety  

And perhaps all guns confiscated during an involuntary hold  

If memory is affected as reported with the saddles, maybe he needs a memory care facility.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Pen

[HS Mom in NC]

Would mom leave for a visit with family/friends while unknown to her family/law enforcement dealt with it? 

I guess if she just won't get out of there there isn't much anyone can do, but either way, this guy is a threat to anyone he comes in contact with.

I wonder if calling for a welfare check would be enough provocation that he would threaten the person doing the check and law enforcement could remove him.

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Sad but true that sometimes something drastic has to happen to move forward with necessary responsible care. 

How else would he get into a situation of an hours/days long psych hold? Seems like there must be some substantial incident to warrant it. Unless he goes voluntarily, which I imagine wouldn't happen in this case. 

 

It is probably a section 302, and should be asked about when the friend calls the police in the father’s area.

If too frightened to call in father’s own residence area they could probably call some other big city, Pittsburgh or Philadelphia police just for basic information on the law there while still keeping identity of father more secret  

In a state I am more familiar with, what was described, if accurate, and if demonstrated by the father in front of police would be enough for a hold and evaluation. Obviously if this was made up or exaggerated the father should not be subjected to a hold. 

Given the description of firearms plus mental instability this sounds like a situation for police to respond to, not an unarmed social worker. Ideally mother would be gone at time at church, friends, store...    But again, I may have misunderstood the situation or it may have been exaggerated. 

 

[happi duck]

I agree with others that friend needs to get mother to visit them and the police need to be called.

[Katy]

The local police and/or sheriff should be asked about a psych hold.  They'll be able to fill the friend in on the local laws.

[Starfish]

 

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Would mom leave for a visit with family/friends while unknown to her family/law enforcement dealt with it? 

I guess if she just won't get out of there there isn't much anyone can do, but either way, this guy is a threat to anyone he comes in contact with.

I wonder if calling for a welfare check would be enough provocation that he would threaten the person doing the check and law enforcement could remove him.

 Please don't do the bolded unless the caller gives all of the pertinent info to the agency they call.  With what has been described it could quickly escalate into a dangerous situation for everyone involved.   Domestic situations are already extremely dangerous for LEOs and others. 

[katilac]

I don't see good possibilities for solving this long-term. Involuntary holds are hard to get, particularly if the spouse is not supporting it, and don't last long. Guardianship is a process that leaves plenty of time for a violent reaction, and then you have still have the process of placing him. An ordinary nursing home is not going to accept a violent resident. 

Multiple guns, long-term violence and abuse, irrational, friend is afraid of him. My brutal advice would be to move and not disclose her address to either parent. Get a cheap burner phone with no GPS to talk to mom. Don't video chat from home or close to home. Never, ever, have the grandkids in his presence. If she trusts her mom enough to keep temporary secrets, she can visit her mom at neutral location. Do this without the kids until she knows that her mom is reliable about keeping it a secret. Don't do it all if she thinks mom might spill the beans or let something slip. These are some obvious things, she needs to  search for other ways to stay hidden and safe; a domestic violence shelter might offer advice. 

It's terrible for her mom, but nothing is going to change on that front. She is going to stay. If she has told him secrets in the past, she will tell him secrets in the future. Protecting her kids has to be your friend's absolute top priority.

Edited September 6, 2018 by katilac

[AmandaVT]

Will the mom go visit the friend and then the friend can call for a safety check while mom is there? Does the friend have a "reason" she could ask the mom to fly out - help with the kids, help with party planning, something believable? Then once mom is safely out of the house, friend could call the GP and police from afar. Not a great solution, but the only one I can think of at the moment.

[Innisfree]

Could Mom be persuaded, not to leave him permanently, but to go take a longish visit to friend? Friend is the one 600 miles from her parents, right? Then once friend is certain that Mom is away and on a plane, so no chance of turning around, friend can call police and explain the situation.

Before starting this, I'd find out what the local laws are and how long he might be held, document everything, alert his doctor, and hope to goodness some medical reason can be found to prevent him from returning home.

Or would mom refuse to leave even temporarily? 

Eta cross-posted with AmandaVt ?

Edited September 6, 2018 by Innisfree

[katilac]

26 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

Will the mom go visit the friend and then the friend can call for a safety check while mom is there? Does the friend have a "reason" she could ask the mom to fly out - help with the kids, help with party planning, something believable? Then once mom is safely out of the house, friend could call the GP and police from afar. Not a great solution, but the only one I can think of at the moment.

 

There needs to be an immediate reason for the police to do a safety check, not just an ongoing worry about him declining or being irrational. If they are willing to check, there is little they can do unless he is presenting as a danger to himself or others at the time they visit. The bar for that is set fairly high. Assuming he answers the door, all he needs to do is sound reasonably coherent for a few minutes and assure them he has no intention of hurting himself or others. And yes, officer, I do own guns, they are all legal and registered. 

Second problem: the best case scenario for calling police and doctors is that he goes on an involuntary psych hold, which lasts for 72 hours. It's hard to get that initial hold, and even harder to have it continue past the initial three days. He just has to calm down enough to reasonably state that he is not having suicidal thoughts and does not intend to hurt anyone. Most likely, you are back to square one with him at home, and now he's mad. 

It's a bad situation for sure. 

[mamaraby]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

There needs to be an immediate reason for the police to do a safety check, not just an ongoing worry about him declining or being irrational. If they are willing to check, there is little they can do unless he is presenting as a danger to himself or others at the time they visit. The bar for that is set fairly high. Assuming he answers the door, all he needs to do is sound reasonably coherent for a few minutes and assure them he has no intention of hurting himself or others. And yes, officer, I do own guns, they are all legal and registered. 

Second problem: the best case scenario for calling police and doctors is that he goes on an involuntary psych hold, which lasts for 72 hours. It's hard to get that initial hold, and even harder to have it continue past the initial three days. He just has to calm down enough to reasonably state that he is not having suicidal thoughts and does not intend to hurt anyone. Most likely, you are back to square one with him at home, and now he's mad. 

It's a bad situation for sure. 

All of this. There are plenty of times that LEOs would want to do something, but want to and legally able to are two very different things. Plenty of calls where people with dementia are violent, wander away from home and walk down county highways, etc and there is very little an LEO can do. They can refer the person for services, they can try to support caregivers, but it’s not a magic band-aid. Maybe, possibly they can do something, but it’s better to be realistic in expectations here.

[moonflower]

But how do you "get rid" of someone else's guns?  You can't steal them, or sell them and say whoops I sold them, or whatever. If he can buy a saddle he can buy another gun, and you (hypothetical you who stole his guns) are now in jail on charges of theft.

 

The mom, maybe, could - is she in theory owner of them or part owner?  But it doesn't sound like she's willing.  And again he could just buy another one tomorrow.

[regentrude]

46 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

One thing the mom needs to be told is that she will end up impoverished, on Medicaid, with no resources for her own care if he is left in charge of the money.  (BTDT, not with saddles but to the loss of home and resources of someone in my family.)

Sometimes, people can't believe the worst about the abuse but they can fear being impoverished.

I checked with friend. Fortunately, the mother has her own accounts that are in her name only, and credit cards he doesn't have access to.

[Katy]

Everyone who is making blanket statements about how easy or hard psych holds are to get is wrong.  This is one of the things that GREATLY varies by state.  In some states OP's description would be enough for the hold, and that medical history plus the testimony of a child would be enough to get guardianship and put him in the dementia unit of a nursing home.  In others it doesn't matter, unless he said something crazy to the investigating police officers themselves there is no chance of getting an involuntary hold, and crazy and abusive people are allowed to do whatever they want, as long as there aren't minor children in the home.

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

There needs to be an immediate reason for the police to do a safety check, not just an ongoing worry about him declining or being irrational. If they are willing to check, there is little they can do unless he is presenting as a danger to himself or others at the time they visit. The bar for that is set fairly high. Assuming he answers the door, all he needs to do is sound reasonably coherent for a few minutes and assure them he has no intention of hurting himself or others. And yes, officer, I do own guns, they are all legal and registered. 

Second problem: the best case scenario for calling police and doctors is that he goes on an involuntary psych hold, which lasts for 72 hours. It's hard to get that initial hold, and even harder to have it continue past the initial three days. He just has to calm down enough to reasonably state that he is not having suicidal thoughts and does not intend to hurt anyone. Most likely, you are back to square one with him at home, and now he's mad. 

It's a bad situation for sure. 

 

That may be state dependent. DH used to work on a mental health crisis team and they were called fairly regularly on something like this. He would be more than willing to make a call to someone at a relative's request - stating that he spoke to someone who is worried about the person he was calling. And they would have police do safety checks in less than immediate situations as well as more emergent ones.

Same with a psych hold. Trying to remember the wording for VT - I think it's if you are a threat to yourself or to others and will not/cannot contract for safety. It's not easy, per se, and has to be signed off on by both a psychiatrist and a judge, but it's not an insurmountable thing.

Edited September 6, 2018 by AmandaVT

[moonflower]

19 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

Our relatives didn't initially take the guns.  They just got trigger locks and locked them all down.  And kept the keys.

 

 

But again, is that really legal?  If the elder decided to file charges to have the trigger locks removed and the person who placed them prosecuted, couldn't he?  What I mean is, how is it legal to lock up someone else's possessions and remove the keys?

 

eta: I would be very hesitant to do something illegal to someone who was disposed toward irritation with me to start with, especially if it wouldn't solve the problem in the long term (that is to say, in this case he could buy another gun)

Edited September 6, 2018 by moonflower

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

But again, is that really legal?  If the elder decided to file charges to have the trigger locks removed and the person who placed them prosecuted, couldn't he?  What I mean is, how is it legal to lock up someone else's possessions and remove the keys?

 

eta: I would be very hesitant to do something illegal to someone who was disposed toward irritation with me to start with, especially if it wouldn't solve the problem in the long term (that is to say, in this case he could buy another gun)

 

This is part of why friend needs to call the police in the area the parents live.  And ask them what to do. 

No point speculating long distance. 

We could just as well raise question of whether if father does do something to someone outside family with one of the guns,  will the mother be held partly responsible due to failure to lock up guns away from a man known to be long time violent and now also no longer mentally sound. Or even if not criminally responsible, another way to end up Penniless  if there were a civil suit for damages. 

[HS Mom in NC]

4 hours ago, Starfish said:

 

 Please don't do the bolded unless the caller gives all of the pertinent info to the agency they call.  With what has been described it could quickly escalate into a dangerous situation for everyone involved.   Domestic situations are already extremely dangerous for LEOs and others. 

In AZ police can be called to do welfare checks.  That's who I assumed we were talking about.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, AmandaVT said:

That may be state dependent.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Everyone who is making blanket statements about how easy or hard psych holds are to get is wrong.  This is one of the things that GREATLY varies by state.  In some states OP's description would be enough for the hold, and that medical history plus the testimony of a child would be enough to get guardianship and put him in the dementia unit of a nursing home.  In others it doesn't matter, unless he said something crazy to the investigating police officers themselves there is no chance of getting an involuntary hold, and crazy and abusive people are allowed to do whatever they want, as long as there aren't minor children in the home.

2

 

I do agree that it varies by state, and suggested that she get in touch with the local agency on aging for just that reason. But, breaking down the original and follow-up post, I still think it would be both difficult and dangerous to obtain guardianship or involuntary commitment. 

Every state emphasizes being a danger to self or others, because of patients' rights. There is no mention of him being noticeably filthy or underweight (and I mean quite noticeably, it is common for seniors to have trouble maintaining weight and to let standards of care slip a bit), no mention of food being unavailable, no mention of frequent or recent injuries, no mention of getting lost or coming to the attention of authorities in any way. Falling asleep suddenly isn't unusual at all.  

The daughter's testimony? She lives 600 miles away and has presumably been out of the family home for quite some time. What precisely can she testify to?

A history of domestic violence that the victim has never brought charges for and isn't willing to talk about. Owning numerous guns - quite legal in America. Carries a gun in his truck? Legal in most places. Stuffed a gun down his pants? Legal in many places, difficult to prove if not, and daughter can't testify to it bc she's not the one who saw it. 

The bidding on auctions and buying saddles when he doesn't have a horse could come into play in a guardianship hearing, but it's not an automatic winner.  $2,000 is not necessarily an alarming amount of money, it depends on how much he has. If he reacts well in the moment, he might say that they are an investment, or that he simply thinks they are beautiful and wants to display them. People have weird hobbies and spend a lot of money on them. And, of course, someone has to attest to it and it doesn't sound like the mom is willing. 

I am not saying going for guardianship and then a care facility won't work or is the wrong thing to do, but I am saying that it's likely to be dangerous. Victims of domestic violence are in the most danger when they challenge the abuser's control and trying to force guardianship or commitment is definitely doing that. It's likely Again, it might be the best of bad choices, it might be a risk they're willing to take, but both of them need to be aware of the danger. 

Unfortunately, if the daughter tries to act, the most likely scenario I see is her mom and siblings taking dad's side and turning on her. It's a dysfunctional family, they are afraid of him, and even those who might agree beforehand are likely to back down when push comes to shove. Whatever she does or doesn't do, I do think she needs to think of how to best protect herself and her family. 600 miles might slow the crazy down but it won't stop it. 

50 minutes ago, moonflower said:

eta: I would be very hesitant to do something illegal to someone who was disposed toward irritation with me to start with, especially if it wouldn't solve the problem in the long term (that is to say, in this case he could buy another gun)

1

 

I can see trigger locks being worth a try in certain cases. Most people aren't violent, and many of them would notice if the guns disappeared, but wouldn't notice that trigger locks had been added or could be distracted from it. This guy is violent and regularly handles at least some of his guns, so no way. 

 

[Starfish]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

In AZ police can be called to do welfare checks.  That's who I assumed we were talking about.

Yes, the police can and usually do welfare checks.   Police officers aren't immune to needing the details in order to minimize risk and keep everyone safe.    My only point is that whoever is called  for a welfare check should be given all of the pertinent details, esp since weapons are involved.   I'm sorry if I sound contrary, I don't mean to be. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Starfish

[HS Mom in NC]

8 minutes ago, Starfish said:

Yes, the police can and usually do welfare checks.   Police officers aren't immune to needing the details in order to minimize risk and keep everyone safe.    My only point is that whoever is called  for a welfare check should be given all of the pertinent details, esp since weapons are involved.   I'm sorry if I sound contrary, I don't mean to be. 

I assumed anyone bothering to call for a welfare check would fill the person in on the details.  It would be weird not to, right?