Boys and girls

[Scarlett]

Oh and I asked my friend why her son (the cousin) told them not to come over at the same time anymore....she said he flat out told them they were too handsy, he was sick of them denying they weren't dating and he wasn't going to be part of that anymore.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

OK, nobody accidentally uses someone else's debit card. And if she does not have a GED...does she have a job? Does ds have good earning potential? I am getting too invested in this...

Well, she does have her GED now.  At least I think she does....but there was a time she told me she had it when she had only taken the pre test.  She doesn't have a job....she is looking.  Ds works a day a week or so and is in school full time.  He just started his first year of college. 

My friend pays her niece to go into the city and buy groceries for her....so that is why she had that debit card.  But yeah, my friend's card is a business card and the girl's card is not and so my friend knows they look completely different.  Besides if it was a one time charge it would be maybe believable (honestly that is my great fear with my boss's cards, that I will accidentally use one of his that I keep in my wallet) but it was many charges.

[scholastica]

I would be very concerned about this young lady and my ds, if I were in your shoes. I would almost bet that the reason they were sworn to secrecy is because she’s making up the story about the wedding plans. She knows your son well enough to make it plausible and she’s an experienced liar. I don’t really know what I’d do if I were you. Definitely take some time to think about it. 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, she does have her GED now.  At least I think she does....but there was a time she told me she had it when she had only taken the pre test.  She doesn't have a job....she is looking.  Ds works a day a week or so and is in school full time.  He just started his first year of college. 

My friend pays her niece to go into the city and buy groceries for her....so that is why she had that debit card.  But yeah, my friend's card is a business card and the girl's card is not and so my friend knows they look completely different.  Besides if it was a one time charge it would be maybe believable (honestly that is my great fear with my boss's cards, that I will accidentally use one of his that I keep in my wallet) but it was many charges.

 

I thought the girl had told you she was starting a promising job at a car dealership in the city and that she was starting online college accounting classes. Did she lie about those things, too?

Like others, I am beyond concerned about the debit card incident. This goes way beyond little white lies! This is actual theft, and the fact that she stole from her own aunt makes it even worse. I also don’t like it that she often lies and says she “forgot” her wallet. 

The debit card theft is something you need to discuss with your son. If this girl lies and steals, she is NOT good marriage material. 

[Scarlett]

And really there is sooooooo much about this girl, her FOO, some of her extended family, my son's relationship with some of them.   She thinks she is getting a big settlement from an accident she was in and I bet she and ds think that will be what they live on....but we can all see how foolish that plan is.  She had an mri yesterday on her leg and they called her and asked her to come in immediately.  That is concerning.  So she has some issues...Also she has tried for 6 months to take an accounting course on line that is being paid for by a scholarship she got from doing so well on the GED...but she can't get either of her parents to cooperate on the FAFSA....she has tried several different things...And her mom is not stable....she really has to take care of herself, thus it probably seems to her easy peasy that she and ds could take care of themselves.  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I would be very concerned about this young lady and my ds, if I were in your shoes. I would almost bet that the reason they were sworn to secrecy is because she’s making up the story about the wedding plans. She knows your son well enough to make it plausible and she’s an experienced liar. I don’t really know what I’d do if I were you. Definitely take some time to think about it. 

But it is OBVIOUS he is in love with her. And if they think they are in love they are thinking about marriage.  

The aunt and I had lunch and between the two of us realized that they have probably broken up and made up a few times.....very typical stuff really.  I mean, not the lying....I don't think the lying is typical.

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Oh and I asked my friend why her son (the cousin) told them not to come over at the same time anymore....she said he flat out told them they were too handsy, he was sick of them denying they weren't dating and he wasn't going to be part of that anymore.  

 

That’s what I suspected might be happening.

Your son doesn’t have experience with dating so he’s probably excited to be getting physical with this girl. I’m worried that he’s mistaking sexual attraction for love, and that the girl is taking full advantage of that.

Let’s all pray that she doesn’t end up “accidentally” getting pregnant so she can be sure he will marry her.

Sorry to sound so paranoid, but the things you’re telling us about this girl don’t sound good.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And really there is sooooooo much about this girl, her FOO, some of her extended family, my son's relationship with some of them.   She thinks she is getting a big settlement from an accident she was in and I bet she and ds think that will be what they live on....but we can all see how foolish that plan is.  She had an mri yesterday on her leg and they called her and asked her to come in immediately.  That is concerning.  So she has some issues...Also she has tried for 6 months to take an accounting course on line that is being paid for by a scholarship she got from doing so well on the GED...but she can't get either of her parents to cooperate on the FAFSA....she has tried several different things...And her mom is not stable....she really has to take care of herself, thus it probably seems to her easy peasy that she and ds could take care of themselves.  

 

Are you sure of these things, or are they just what the girl has been telling you?

Also, if she has to take care of herself, maybe she figures she will marry your son so he can take care of her. It may not be love on her part as much as the desire to escape a lousy home life.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But it is OBVIOUS he is in love with her. And if they think they are in love they are thinking about marriage.  

The aunt and I had lunch and between the two of us realized that they have probably broken up and made up a few times.....very typical stuff really.  I mean, not the lying....I don't think the lying is typical.

 

Love does not have to equal marriage. 

Your son is in no position to get married. He just started college! 

 

[Tanaqui]

This is the same friend/aunt who told you about the marriage plans? Is she the one who told you that this young woman said it was all a mistake, or did somebody else say it? Is she still lending out her card?

How did she hear about these plans? Did your son talk about it, or is it all this young woman?

You say the family is dysfunctional. I'm starting to get a few different pictures in my head, and I don't like any of them.

The obvious one is that this young woman is chronically dishonest. You already know she tells small lies, and at least one person has told you she has committed petty theft against her aunt. (For the record, I think the reason she was evasive about leaving early could be chalked up to "she didn't know why you were asking and felt uncomfortable". I myself never answer questions if I don't know why they're being asked, a holdover from childhood bullying. But the rest of it is not so defensible.) That, plus her lack of diploma/GED does indicate that she's not really ready for an adult step like marriage. However, it also indicates that this talk about marriage might be all in her mind. She may be talking about things the way she wants them to be rather than the way they actually are, and may on some level, even believe what she says.

Another possibility is that your friend is exaggerating or lying in order to stir up trouble. I bring this up, again, not because I think this is the case - you have more information on this young woman than I do and also on her aunt - but because I feel like I'm the only one who thinks this could be the case and I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle. I can't get over the fact that she told you this "in confidence". If everything is on the up-and-up, then she should be able to own it. How could admitting that she's the one who told you "get her in trouble", and why is that a concern? What, is your son going to hide this marriage from you forever? This doesn't sound right at all. There is something really weird about all this that I just don't like.

These two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that this girl IS deceitful and immature AND ALSO that her aunt is trying to stir up trouble for no good reason. If the family situation is dysfunctional, there's no reason they might not all be part of the problem.

You've got to bring this up to your son, and the sooner, the better. You don't need to name names or go on about how hurt you are etc (in fact, I suggest you do not bring your feelings into this at all) you just need to say you heard this thing and you want to know if there's any truth to it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I've been with you all along, Tanaqui, at the possibility of the aunt having agendas of her own.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I thought the girl had told you she was starting a promising job at a car dealership in the city and that she was starting online college accounting classes. Did she lie about those things, too?

Like others, I am beyond concerned about the debit card incident. This goes way beyond little white lies! This is actual theft, and the fact that she stole from her own aunt makes it even worse. I also don’t like it that she often lies and says she “forgot” her wallet. 

The debit card theft is something you need to discuss with your son. If this girl lies and steals, she is NOT good marriage material. 

I am with you 100% on the debit card theft.  I find that shocking. I just found that out half hour ago and I am still processing.  

The job, well it is hard to explain, but I had a bad feeling about that job from the beginning.  It is such a long story---but she met this woman through a babysitting app and the woman really liked her....then when she didn't need her for a babysitter anymore she hired her to clean her house.  Then she offered her a job in marketing at this dealership where the woman worked.....but the woman had her come and interview at her house....not so dangerous or anything since she had already been babysitting and cleaning for her....but still weird I thought.  Also, marketing?  I mean, what a weird job to start in with zero experience....but hey what do I know.  Still I was getting a weird vibe about the whole thing...So apparently she goes in to work at the dealership for several weeks and then suddenly the boss lady says 'oh I am just going to use you for a personal assistant at my house.'  And the girl overheard the woman talking to her boyfriend and she was saying, 'yes, and you can use her for your business too.'  The girl immediately knew she did not want to do that...being stuck all day in the woman's house and the boyfriend being her boss too...just no.  So she didn't quit, she began looking for another job. She applied for another job at another dealer and the boss lady found out and let her go. Now I would be a little suspicious of that story in general (the ending part) if not for the fact I had a bad feeling about it all from the beginning.

At the same time she started her accounting course.  She called me and told me she just got it 'turned on' and she was so excited.  After she did the intro course the financial aid called her and said she had not received the girl's dad's pay stub....the girl said, 'I told you I dont' have that and my dad wont' give it to me'  Lady said, 'oh I thought we had it and without it you can't have the course.'  So they shut it down.  Last I heard she was still working on getting it.

I do know many of these details that sound far fetched are true, but see she has a very chaotic life and I think she has learned some very  bad coping skills. 

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

I've been with you all along, Tanaqui, at the possibility of the aunt having agendas of her own.

No absolutely not.  I 100% trust the aunt.  I do not trust the aunt's sister.  They are very very different. 

The aunt told me today at lunch that she didn't tell me what she told me to upset me.  She only told me because she knows I already KNOW it (she and I have discussed it MANY times) and she doesn't want me to doubt myself because YES they are dating and YES it is serious.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I am losing track of people. LOL Could we have a flow chart? Cast of characters? 

[Catwoman]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I am with you 100% on the debit card theft.  I find that shocking. I just found that out half hour ago and I am still processing.  

The job, well it is hard to explain, but I had a bad feeling about that job from the beginning.  It is such a long story---but she met this woman through a babysitting app and the woman really liked her....then when she didn't need her for a babysitter anymore she hired her to clean her house.  Then she offered her a job in marketing at this dealership where the woman worked.....but the woman had her come and interview at her house....not so dangerous or anything since she had already been babysitting and cleaning for her....but still weird I thought.  Also, marketing?  I mean, what a weird job to start in with zero experience....but hey what do I know.  Still I was getting a weird vibe about the whole thing...So apparently she goes in to work at the dealership for several weeks and then suddenly the boss lady says 'oh I am just going to use you for a personal assistant at my house.'  And the girl overheard the woman talking to her boyfriend and she was saying, 'yes, and you can use her for your business too.'  The girl immediately knew she did not want to do that...being stuck all day in the woman's house and the boyfriend being her boss too...just no.  So she didn't quit, she began looking for another job. She applied for another job at another dealer and the boss lady found out and let her go. Now I would be a little suspicious of that story in general (the ending part) if not for the fact I had a bad feeling about it all from the beginning.

At the same time she started her accounting course.  She called me and told me she just got it 'turned on' and she was so excited.  After she did the intro course the financial aid called her and said she had not received the girl's dad's pay stub....the girl said, 'I told you I dont' have that and my dad wont' give it to me'  Lady said, 'oh I thought we had it and without it you can't have the course.'  So they shut it down.  Last I heard she was still working on getting it.

I do know many of these details that sound far fetched are true, but see she has a very chaotic life and I think she has learned some very  bad coping skills. 

 

Both of those stories sound phony to me. Maybe parts are true, but overall, this girl sounds like a very experienced (and detailed) liar. 

Nothing is ever her fault. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I believe you about the girl being shady, having poor coping skills - including impulsive lying, and making bad choices...believe it or not, that's not a statement that is super loaded with judgement. I was a bit similar at her age, but not to these degrees, because half the people I knew were also that way. When you're not properly brought up, you screw up your life a LOT (and make other people think you are nothing but a trainwreck) as you have to learn everything the hard way.

1. How to put your best foot forward in life, and write your own reputation.

2. How to handle relationships in a mature and responsible way, instead in a self-serving and desperate way.

3. How to find out what a legit job even IS, and then begin clawing your way toward being qualified for a legit job.

These things can be worked out. A person with a good heart and good intentions can overcome a LOT, if they are smart, have good mentors, and have some margin in life so they can study the world. But nobody else (like an 18yo college student) should hitch their wagon to her star, until she has sorted herself. An exception might be a Daddy Long Legs scenario in which he has the maturity, wisdom, resources, and time to finish raising her. Again, not an 18yo college student.

My boys get lectures about choosing friends and significant others who are "self-contained." Imperfect but capable people enriching each other's lives v. codependency. 

Whatever this girl's motivations and whether she has a good heart or not, she's looking for codependency instead of focusing on how to complete her life education and bring something to the table as a functioning partner. I think.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Tanaqui]

I'm also losing track of who's who. Maybe give them all distinct fake names? IDK.

But anyway, my advice still stands. Bring it up with your son as soon as possible. Try NOT to talk about how this girl, right now, is not mature enough to be in a relationship. Nothing is going to drive him to her faster than having this silly, star-crossed, "they don't understand our love" scenario in his head, and there's a very good chance that that's how it'll get filtered. Right now, your goal is simply to figure out what's going on. After you know for sure, then you can figure out what to say/do about it.

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

I believe you about the girl being shady, having poor coping skills - including impulsive lying, and making bad choices...believe it or not, that's not a statement that is super loaded with judgement. I was a bit similar at her age, but not to these degrees, because half the people I knew were also that way. When you're not properly brought up, you screw up your life a LOT (and make other people think you are nothing but a trainwreck) as you have to learn everything the hard way.

1. How to put your best foot forward in life, and write your own reputation.

2. How to handle relationships in a mature and responsible way, instead in a self-serving and desperate way.

3. How to find out what a legit job even IS, and then begin clawing your way toward being qualified for a legit job.

These things can be worked out. A person with a good heart and good intentions can overcome a LOT, if they are smart, have good mentors, and have some margin in life so they can study the world. But nobody else (like an 18yo college student) should hitch their wagon to her star, until she has sorted herself. An exception might be a Daddy Long Legs scenario in which he has the maturity, wisdom, resources, and time to finish raising her. Again, not an 18yo college student.

My boys get lectures about choosing friends and significant others who are "self-contained." Imperfect but capable people enriching each other's lives v. codependency. 

Whatever this girl's motivations and whether she has a good heart or not, she's looking for codependency instead of focusing on how to complete her life education and bring something to the table as a functioning partner. I think.

Yes, to everything.  And I doubt she is even conscious that she is looking for codependency.  I think I mentioned earlier that they bonded early on over the shared experience of divorced parents.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Whoa. Tanaqui is right. No talking about her issues or about how they aren't acceptable marriage material...yet. Misunderstood, star crossed lovers, indeed, might be their takeaway.

Ye gods.

Just talk to the boy. Find out what's true.

 

 

 

 

 

And then report back here.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Whoa. Tanaqui is right. No talking about her issues or about how they aren't acceptable marriage material...yet. Misunderstood, star crossed lovers, indeed, might be their takeaway.

Ye gods.

Just talk to the boy. Find out what's true.

 

 

 

 

 

And then report back here.

I HAVE talked to him.  Seriously he won't tell me anything.  

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

This is what I am trying to do.  I have pointed out to ds in the past that she is not truthful.  I didn't say it in a way to make him think I hate her or anything....but I want him to have that on his radar...that she isn't always up front and honest.  For instance last night when she texted me I KNEW she had left a Bible study early.  I had already been TOLD.  So I asked her if she left early....and she didn't answer me directly.  She changed the subject and made it seem like 'oh it started earlier than usual.'  Which was true, but she also DID leave early.  Why lie about that?  And no it wasn't because she was sneaking off with my son....he was home in his room.  I didn't call her on it because my emotions were so raw yesterday I feared I would unleash.

 

I do not like lying and deceit.  At the same time, I think someone else's business is their business and I do not have a right to information about it.  It seems odd that someone else finds it of interest to tell you that she left her Bible study early.  I am having a difficult time imagining why this was information to pass on to you.  If you knew that she left early, I am wondering why you asked her if you left early.   I do not see that she owes you an answer of when she left her Bible study. 

 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, jdahlquist said:

I do not like lying and deceit.  At the same time, I think someone else's business is their business and I do not have a right to information about it.  It seems odd that someone else finds it of interest to tell you that she left her Bible study early.  I am having a difficult time imagining why this was information to pass on to you.  If you knew that she left early, I am wondering why you asked her if you left early.   I do not see that she owes you an answer of when she left her Bible study. 

 

Well it wasn't like someone just called me up....I was chatting via text with the aunt about all of this....I am REALLY upset guys....but anyway, while we were texting her sister texted her and said they had left early.  

Within an hour the girl starts texting me telling me how she didn't like that particular location (it isn't our regular location)….and thus I asked her if she left early.  Furthermore the girl's mom told the aunt it was because the girl's leg was hurting her....girl said nothing to me about the leg.  I know it all sounds so petty, but these are things that add up over time and I don't feel like she is honest. But as someone pointed out maybe she just thinks, "I am a grown up and I don't have to answer 20 questions.'   Shrug.

[bolt.]

I’m on team, “I’m a grown up, and I don’t have to answer 20 questions.”

(But then, I’m also on team, “It’s okay to lie to intrusive people if they question you about topics you wouldn’t willingly have volunteered information about.” — so I’m not sure my perspective is useful. I’m totally okay with the level of dishonesty she uses to casually build a almost-accurate-but-more-flattering persona in her relationship with friend/boyfriend’s mom. I don’t think it indictes a deeply flawed person.)

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I HAVE talked to him.  Seriously he won't tell me anything.  

 

Then I don't see that you have any choice at this point but to drop it. Not if you want to maintain a good relationship with your son.

And you DO want to maintain a good relationship with him. IF something is going on, then the fact that he's not telling you suggests that he feels you'll judge him. Looking at this thread, he's probably right about that. Given the situation, I don't blame you!

But let's say he goes ahead and they really do get married in a year, and then a little while later he realizes he made a huge mistake. If he's still thinking that you disapprove, that you pry, that you'll judge him, that you treat him like a little kid - is he going to suck it up and ask for your help? I'm thinking no.

You can't get blood from a stone, and you can't force people to tell you things if they're not ready. Continuing on this path is going to cause a lot more fuss and a lot more drama. It's a pity he can't level with you and say either "Whoa, whoever told you that is seriously off base and way out of line" or "Oh, yeah, we didn't want to tell you, sorry", but if you have asked him and he won't tell you then you've got to back off now.

[Bootsie]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well it wasn't like someone just called me up....I was chatting via text with the aunt about all of this....I am REALLY upset guys....but anyway, while we were texting her sister texted her and said they had left early.  

Within an hour the girl starts texting me telling me how she didn't like that particular location (it isn't our regular location)….and thus I asked her if she left early.  Furthermore the girl's mom told the aunt it was because the girl's leg was hurting her....girl said nothing to me about the leg.  I know it all sounds so petty, but these are things that add up over time and I don't feel like she is honest. But as someone pointed out maybe she just thinks, "I am a grown up and I don't have to answer 20 questions.'   Shrug.

If this is typical of the situation, I would be the kind of person who would try as hard as possible to keep a relationship private.  This would be entirely too much interest in everybody else's business than I would be comfortable with.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, jdahlquist said:

If this is typical of the situation, I would be the kind of person who would try as hard as possible to keep a relationship private.  This would be entirely too much interest in everybody else's business than I would be comfortable with.  

But that is the thing, SHE isn't private.  She tells me A LOT of detail.  A LOT.  She just texted me and told me all about her doctor visit.  She has to have another surgery.

And really about the above situation, is it unusual for a sister to call another sister and say 'hey we are headed home'.

[hippiemamato3]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is what I am trying to do.  I have pointed out to ds in the past that she is not truthful.  I didn't say it in a way to make him think I hate her or anything....but I want him to have that on his radar...that she isn't always up front and honest.  For instance last night when she texted me I KNEW she had left a Bible study early.  I had already been TOLD.  So I asked her if she left early....and she didn't answer me directly.  She changed the subject and made it seem like 'oh it started earlier than usual.'  Which was true, but she also DID leave early.  Why lie about that?  And no it wasn't because she was sneaking off with my son....he was home in his room.  I didn't call her on it because my emotions were so raw yesterday I feared I would unleash.

And she lied about having completed her GED.  I think she lies when she feels like it will make her look bad.

But today I had lunch with her aunt who told me the girl had used the aunt's debit card and then when called on it claimed it was an accident and she thought she was using her own.  The aunt does not believe that.  It was many charges adding up to around $100.  THAT was the worst thing I have heard so far.  

And ds told me the other day the girl 'forgets her wallet' a lot.  I told him, 'don't let yourself be used.'    

I am hyperaware of how badly it can go if I speak ill of her and she ends up being my DIL.  But at the same time I am not going to be lied to.  

 

First of all, why are you asking her if she left early when you know she did? It's possible the questioning made her feel uncomfortable or judged for some reason which is why she avoided directly answering. The debit card thing - are you just trying to further prove to us that she is distrustful? Prior to today you said she was a nice girl and you liked her. I think your stories start out truthful and then twist when you get people on your side. It makes me uncomfortable. As for your son paying when they go out - don't you expect him to?

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But that is the thing, SHE isn't private.  She tells me A LOT of detail.  A LOT.  She just texted me and told me all about her doctor visit.  She has to have another surgery.

And really about the above situation, is it unusual for a sister to call another sister and say 'hey we are headed home'.

It would not necessarily be unusual for me to text my sister and say "we are headed home".  It would be unusual for my sister then to tell someone else that we have left early and then have that person ask me if I left early (when they already knew the answer) and for that person to think I am being less than honest because I did not tell them every reason that I left.

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 

First of all, why are you asking her if she left early when you know she did? It's possible the questioning made her feel uncomfortable or judged for some reason which is why she avoided directly answering. The debit card thing - are you just trying to further prove to us that she is distrustful? Prior to today you said she was a nice girl and you liked her. I think your stories start out truthful and then twist when you get people on your side. It makes me uncomfortable. As for your son paying when they go out - don't you expect him to?

I thought she would tell me her leg was bothering her....I didn't want to tell her I already knew because that seems a little weird, but in the context of me talking to her aunt ABOUT her it was not really weird that her aunt said, 'oh my sister just texted me'  And there was more to it because my friend was suppose to be at the same service and she had a lot of her own issues that happened that kept her from going and she was upset....I mean good grief I feel like I am being judged here over my friendships and how we talk to each other, but whatever.

As for the debit card thing, I JUST found that out at lunch.  My friend had JUST found out her niece did that.  I thought it was relevant to the discussion which I realize now has gone on to long and I have given too much detail as I often do, but no I am not trying to prove anything.  I do like her, but I do not fully trust her, but this is not a fatal flaw, she is young and she could be guided to be more trustworthy.  

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 

First of all, why are you asking her if she left early when you know she did? It's possible the questioning made her feel uncomfortable or judged for some reason which is why she avoided directly answering. The debit card thing - are you just trying to further prove to us that she is distrustful? Prior to today you said she was a nice girl and you liked her. I think your stories start out truthful and then twist when you get people on your side. It makes me uncomfortable. As for your son paying when they go out - don't you expect him to?

Why would he?

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

It sounds like the girl is trying to get in your good graces, so to speak.  That’s normal.   Of course she wants her bf’s mom to like her. That debit card issue bothers me (well, I think it may bother all of us... we may be unanimous on that!).    About your ds paying or not paying... did your ds complain about her leaving her wallet behind and having to cover her?  If he acted at all ‘put out’ by that, then I’m thinking this girl has made this friendship into more than it really is.  Your ds probably would not mind paying for her if they were serious, but if they’re not?  I could see someone getting irked over frequently having to pay for another person. 

He was telling me about how they shared a pizza and it was cheaper....his part was 7 then he said ‘well I paid for all of it because she left her wallet in the car. She forgets her wallet a lot’

I said don’t be used . 

[unsinkable]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He was telling me about how they shared a pizza and it was cheaper....his part was 7 then he said ‘well I paid for all of it because she left her wallet in the car. She forgets her wallet a lot’

I said don’t be used . 

It is comments like "Don't be used" lead me to think your son probably has his reasons for keeping their relationship a secret.

It comes across as harsh and...oh, I don't know how to phrase it...like relationships are transactions?

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

IMO, “She forgets her wallet a lot” sounds like a complaint, maybe a subtle one, but a complaint nonetheless.  It may very well be that this girl has blown this relationship way out of proportion.  

Yes. He said it with slightly raised eyebrows like ‘ likely story’. And I answered back with a smile and acknowledgment of what he was saying.

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

It is comments like "Don't be used" lead me to think your son probably has his reasons for keeping their relationship a secret.

It comes across as harsh and...oh, I don't know how to phrase it...like relationships are transactions?

I disagree . He clearly thought it was a made up story too. 

[unsinkable]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I disagree . He clearly thought it was a made up story too. 

Ok, so they are in love, talking marriage, (but he won't tell you any of that)...but you and he will have these little exchanges about her not remembering her wallet, which you both believe she is lying about.

Yeah, this isn't going to end well.

[hippiemamato3]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Why would he?

Why would he pay on dates? I guess I would expect him to. Don't you? 

[hippiemamato3]

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Yes. He said it with slightly raised eyebrows like ‘ likely story’. And I answered back with a smile and acknowledgment of what he was saying.

Yeah, this doesn't sound like a man in love to me. At all. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by hippiemamato3

[Xahm]

An alternative explanation for the wallet forgetting story is that he is paying on purpose because he considers it a date, but he wants to explain it differently to his mother in order to maintain the "not dating" fiction.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Why would he pay on dates? I guess I would expect him to. Don't you? 

 

That's a bit old fashioned. Whoever did the inviting should pay, and unless they have very unequal incomes then it's likely to even out so they each pay about half the time.

[DawnM]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

That's a bit old fashioned. Whoever did the inviting should pay, and unless they have very unequal incomes then it's likely to even out so they each pay about half the time.

 

I think even that is old fashioned.  In my kids' dating worlds, it isn't really an invite, it is more of a, "what do you want to do Saturday?"  and, "Oh, i don't know, do you want to go to the movies?"  and, "Ok, sure, do you want to meet for ice cream or coffee before?"

There isn't even an invite.  

But I didn't even like dating back when I was dating.  I hated it.  I would much rather have hung out in groups until you know you really like someone.  I encourage my boys to do the same.  

[Scarlett]

21 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

I think even that is old fashioned.  In my kids' dating worlds, it isn't really an invite, it is more of a, "what do you want to do Saturday?"  and, "Oh, i don't know, do you want to go to the movies?"  and, "Ok, sure, do you want to meet for ice cream or coffee before?"

There isn't even an invite.  

But I didn't even like dating back when I was dating.  I hated it.  I would much rather have hung out in groups until you know you really like someone.  I encourage my boys to do the same.  

Right, I agree.  We encourage our boys to have a lot of friends and meet a lot of people/girls  so that when you are old enough to date you know yourself and the kind of people you like. 

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, xahm said:

An alternative explanation for the wallet forgetting story is that he is paying on purpose because he considers it a date, but he wants to explain it differently to his mother in order to maintain the "not dating" fiction.

Maybe.  But why even bring it up to me?  It isn't like I was there or would know who paid for what.

[Xahm]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe.  But why even bring it up to me?  It isn't like I was there or would know who paid for what.

Clearly I don't know, but it could be that he likes talking to you but fears judgement on his choices. He may have been testing to see how you would react to the idea of his paying for her.

[cave canem]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe.  But why even bring it up to me?  It isn't like I was there or would know who paid for what.

If he is trying to deceive you, this would be a classic way of setting up fake context in which you interpret the rest of his words and actions. 

I have seen this so many times.

I don't say that he is doing that, but it is an answer to the question "why?"

Edited August 24, 2018 by cave canem
sounded a little presumptuous, not my intention

[Scarlett]

Ok, I texted him and the girl and the girl's mom. The girl called me with in 2 minutes.  All is out on the table now.  

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok, I texted him and the girl and the girl's mom. The girl called me with in 2 minutes.  All is out on the table now.  

 

What did the girl tell you? Is your son telling you the same story?

Personally, I would have kept this between you and your son, but apparently your method worked, so I’m glad you have a better idea of what is really going on.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

What did the girl tell you? Is your son telling you the same story?

Personally, I would have kept this between you and your son, but apparently your method worked, so I’m glad you have a better idea of what is really going on.

Well, I did try to keep it between my son and myself and that obviously wasn't working.  She was very forthcoming and said she was sick of being a secret and she told him that yesterday and they had a big argument about it.  My son has apparently been terrified I would kick him out and he would be homeless.  I am sad he thinks that of me.  Really I have never done anything to make him think that.  But whatever....that is done, and maybe we can have some honesty now.  He apologized about 10 times for not being honest. 

[Scarlett]

And yes the story is the same from both of them.  The mom however is not trustworthy AT ALL.  Ugh.  

[Catwoman]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Well, I did try to keep it between my son and myself and that obviously wasn't working.  She was very forthcoming and said she was sick of being a secret and she told him that yesterday and they had a big argument about it.  My son has apparently been terrified I would kick him out and he would be homeless.  I am sad he thinks that of me.  Really I have never done anything to make him think that.  But whatever....that is done, and maybe we can have some honesty now.  He apologized about 10 times for not being honest. 

 

I’m glad everything is out in the open now, and I’m especially happy that your son is sorry he deceived (and underestimated) you.

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

And yes the story is the same from both of them.  The mom however is not trustworthy AT ALL.  Ugh.  

 

The girl’s mom could end up being a big problem for your son in the future.

And I’m very concerned about the girl’s own issues. That debit card theft situation is still such a huge red flag, as is the girl’s habit of lying. How will you or your son be able to trust her?

Is it awful of me to secretly hope your son gets tired of her and ends up with someone else?

Edited August 25, 2018 by Catwoman
Edited for clarity!