High school requirements for US ivies or OxBridge?

[MDL]

Hi all,

maybe it’s just Friday and soon summer break, but I cannot find anything about how to structure high school at home for high level college entrance. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I’ve been rooting around the forum and google and seem to be stuck in a ‘you can do it! Here are the basic credit/gpa requirements for college” loop. 

As of now, end of 7th grade boy so take it with a grain of salt, he has his eyes on Oxford. Obviously, I want to set him up to succeed, so I am looking to plan his high school course accordingly. He has already taken a couple of high school level classes, so I am beginning to build his transcript and am finding it vague and somewhat confusing. 

Which board is the best place to search for info? Any advice from moms who’ve been there/done that?

thanks!

[8filltheheart]

I would suggest reading the college forum here on the WTM and joining the hs2coll yahoo group.  Plenty of homeschoolers have been accepted to US Ivies.  I know of one homeschooler who recently graduated from Cambridge.

In terms of US schools, in addition to high school course work (which by itself is not going to lead to acceptances), "the other" is what makes or breaks admissions. In terms of understanding "the other," you could spend time reading College Confidential and you will become well-versed in what Ivy bound students' resumes look like.

[maize]

You'll want test scores for Oxford--AP's and SAT subject tests related to the course of study he is applying for.

This is from their web page:

 

American education system   

Oxford will accept both the old-system and the redesigned SAT. Students sitting the redesigned SAT will need to achieve a total score of 1,470 (out of 1,600). We do not require the optional essay in the redesigned SAT. Any candidates with a test date prior to, or including, January 2016 will be expected to achieve the SAT Reasoning Test with at least 1,400 in Critical Reading and Mathematics and also 700 or more in Writing, giving a combined score of at least 2,100 (out of 2,400).
OR
ACT with a score of at least 32 out of 36

AND

Grade 5 in three or more Advanced Placement Tests in appropriate subjects
OR
SAT Subject Tests in three appropriate subjects at 700 or better.

A combination of APTs and SAT Subject Tests (or other equivalent qualifications) is also acceptable, if they are in different subjects. Individual courses may have specific requirements, so please check the course pages for details.

[MDL]

Thank you for that yahoo group & I’ll peruse the college board a little deeper. 

 

The more ore I read about US Ivies, the less I want to waste the $$$$, though....

[Lanny]

The night of May 3, 2018, we attended a School Fair in Bogota, Colombia. 4 schools sent an Admission Rep. Harvard, Duke, Georgetown and Penn. My DD had indicated an interest in Duke but the invitation came    from Penn.  They explained the many things that they evaluate when looking at an applicant. Way more than just SAT and ACT scores.  Class Rank was one of the things, so I think for Home Schoolers that presents a hoop to jump over.  Rigor of the High School is another thing they look at. In addition to Rigor of the courses.  Many many things they are looking at.     The Essay with the application, etc.

Just about everyone they look at is a top notch student, so they are looking at other interests, hobbies, outside activities, etc. too.

I would try to make it as rigorous as possible and then try to figure out how to present that on the Transcript. Good luck!

 

 

 

[Lanny]

25 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

The $$$ may work out; some schools are quite generous.  As always, you'll have to decide about the cost/benefit ratio.  What will your student take advantage of on campus?  What calls to him?  

 

The 4 schools who were at the School Fair we attended last month stressed the Financial Aid they have available to low income families. We are an extremely low income family. I think they consider "Low Income" to be below about $65000 USD family income and they don't expect families below that number to pay anything. Their cut off is probably about $150K USD family income, but I don't remember that because unfortunately it does not apply to our family.

Universities with huge Endowment Funds can offer Need based Financial AId that other schools cannot offer.

[MDL]

Lanny, that is what I’m finding. He is very active (and talented) with his high level choir. I am hoping he will dig deeper into musical instrument (has had a few years with piano, big interest in organ and currently learning/practicing drums). I also hope he is on an AP trajectory with Latin. 

He wont qualify for any need based FA, and academic scholarships don’t really exist much anymore, so OxBridge is the affordable option at the moment, depending on brexit as he is also an EU citizen. So, full price Ivy is a difficult hurdle to clear in making it worth it. Especially as we are discounting the value based on the liberal indoctrination he will be exposed to. 

Sorry if my tone is off, I’m being called out the door for family beach day☀️☀️

[Lanny]

MDL:  I hope he will continue his musical interests. That will be "a plus" when they look at his application.  The 4 schools who sent Admissions Reps to that School Fair do not offer much in the way of Merit Aid, tons of Need based aid, but little Merit Aid, however I believe for someone they need, they would fork over some Merit AId. Enjoy the beach!

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, MDL said:

Lanny, that is what I’m finding. He is very active (and talented) with his high level choir. I am hoping he will dig deeper into musical instrument (has had a few years with piano, big interest in organ and currently learning/practicing drums). I also hope he is on an AP trajectory with Latin. 

He wont qualify for any need based FA, and academic scholarships don’t really exist much anymore, so OxBridge is the affordable option at the moment, depending on brexit as he is also an EU citizen. So, full price Ivy is a difficult hurdle to clear in making it worth it. Especially as we are discounting the value based on the liberal indoctrination he will be exposed to. 

Sorry if my tone is off, I’m being called out the door for family beach day☀️☀️

How many APs do you foresee him completing?  More than Latin?  What is his math trajectory? Science? History?

His music EC sounds excellent but please be very aware that it may or may not be enough of an EC for competitive admissions.  Competitive admissions can be brutally competitive and kids with "perfect profiles" of extremely high test scores, 9+ APs, 4.0+ GPAs (meaning all As regardless of the scale), excellent LOR, and excellent ECs are still iffy in terms of competitiveness for admissions.  It is just a big unknown even if they check off all of the boxes.

No Ivy offers merit aid to any student. They all only offer need based aid.

[Earthmerlin]

23 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I would suggest reading the college forum here on the WTM and joining the hs2coll yahoo group.  Plenty of homeschoolers have been accepted to US Ivies.  I know of one homeschooler who recently graduated from Cambridge.

In terms of US schools, in addition to high school course work (which by itself is not going to lead to acceptances), "the other" is what makes or breaks admissions. In terms of understanding "the other," you could spend time reading College Confidential and you will become well-versed in what Ivy bound students' resumes look like.

Is the book 'College Confidential' or 'Campus Confidential'? It has piqued my interest but my library's only got the latter & I'm wondering if it's the same book. Thanks!

[Matryoshka]

45 minutes ago, Earthmerlin said:

Is the book 'College Confidential' or 'Campus Confidential'? It has piqued my interest but my library's only got the latter & I'm wondering if it's the same book. Thanks!

College Confidential isn't a book; it's a website that focuses a lot on admissions to selective universities.

[8filltheheart]

47 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

College Confidential isn't a book; it's a website that focuses a lot on admissions to selective universities.

Yes. If you go to the individual Ivy schools, you can find threads like this: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2039011-harvard-university-class-of-2022-scea-results-p1.html

[Mabelen]

EU citizenship is irrelevant for tuition fees at OxBridge. It’s residency that counts. My kids can claim British citizenship through my husband. Our oldest is British too and was even born there. They can also claim Spanish citizenship through me.  You have to have residency in the U.K. to be entitled to the lower tuition fees. That means that you have to be a resident there for at least the last three years prior to college admission.

I am assuming you are in the U.S. If you are in the U.K. or EU, please disregard.

[lewelma]

It would be wise to choose between USA and UK at the beginning of high school.  Being competitive for elite universities in 2 different countries is close to impossible.  The UK elites want very pointy academically. In contrast, the USA elites want somewhat pointy with both breadth and meaningful extracurriculars.  

DS had a friend accepted into Cambridge, and he had to drop all of his extracurriculars at the beginning of highschool to have his academics be his focus. He could not have gotten into an elite American university with academics alone, even though he was the top scholar for NZ (basically valedictorian for the country), because he did nothing but school work.  In contrast, my ds could not have competed with his friend in academics because he spent a huge amount of time with his music and athletic pursuits, but did get into an elite American university.  

Ruth in NZ 

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, Mabelen said:

EU citizenship is irrelevant for tuition fees at OxBridge. It’s residency that counts. My kids can claim British citizenship through my husband. Our oldest is British too and was even born there. They can also claim Spanish citizenship through me.  You have to have residency in the U.K. to be entitled to the lower tuition fees. That means that you have to be a resident there for at least the last three years prior to college admission.

I am assuming you are in the U.S. If you are in the U.K. or EU, please disregard.

Well this makes me feel better. The rate differentials for EU citizens at Oxbridge and elsewhere are material enough to have made me consider getting the DC their EU citizenship which would be quite the process in my case...too lazy!

[Earthmerlin]

10 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Yes. If you go to the individual Ivy schools, you can find threads like this: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2039011-harvard-university-class-of-2022-scea-results-p1.html

LOL, well I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying!

[Lanny]

12 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

<snip>

No Ivy offers merit aid to any student. They all only offer need based aid.

 

Of the 4 schools who presented at the School Fair we attended the first week of May 2018 I believe that statement is almost true.  THEY OFFER VERY LITTLE MERIT AID, IF ANY.  Tons of Need based aid, but very little Merit Aid. 

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Lanny said:

Of the 4 schools who presented at the School Fair we attended the first week of May 2018 I believe that statement is almost true.  THEY OFFER VERY LITTLE MERIT AID, IF ANY.  Tons of Need based aid, but very little Merit Aid. 

Lanny, the simple fact is that Ivies do not offer ANY merit aid. 

Quote

The only bad news about financial aid and scholarships at Ivy League schools is that they are entirely need-based. Ivy League schools are prohibited from offering athletic scholarships and none of the schools offer merit-based or talent-based awards. That said, Ivy League students are free to win merit-based scholarships from outside institutions and organizations, including state, federal and private scholarships.

https://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/college-planning/admissions/ivy-league-admissions5.htm

Duke and Georgetown are not Ivy schools.  Duke does offer limited merit. I am not sure about Georgetown. Without looking, I think they are need-based aid, but I would have to research their FA policies.

[MDL]

22 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

How many APs do you foresee him completing?  More than Latin?  What is his math trajectory? Science? History?

His music EC sounds excellent but please be very aware that it may or may not be enough of an EC for competitive admissions.  Competitive admissions can be brutally competitive and kids with "perfect profiles" of extremely high test scores, 9+ APs, 4.0+ GPAs (meaning all As regardless of the scale), excellent LOR, and excellent ECs are still iffy in terms of competitiveness for admissions.  It is just a big unknown even if they check off all of the boxes.

No Ivy offers merit aid to any student. They all only offer need based aid.

He is falling in love with math via AoPS at the moment, so he has a good chance at success there. He is very strong in vocabulary and language in general (native speaker in Swedish and English) and I think continued Latin will make other romance /Germanic languages easy to pick up. He loves and excels in History as well. 

I cannot get him interested in any computer sciences, though. 

He is 100% teenage boy, though: sloppy, lazy, resistant. It’s worse if I push him. Such a tough job!

[MDL]

21 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Yes. If you go to the individual Ivy schools, you can find threads like this: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2039011-harvard-university-class-of-2022-scea-results-p1.html

That link has me very disheartened. Wow!

[MDL]

20 hours ago, Mabelen said:

EU citizenship is irrelevant for tuition fees at OxBridge. It’s residency that counts. My kids can claim British citizenship through my husband. Our oldest is British too and was even born there. They can also claim Spanish citizenship through me.  You have to have residency in the U.K. to be entitled to the lower tuition fees. That means that you have to be a resident there for at least the last three years prior to college admission.

I am assuming you are in the U.S. If you are in the U.K. or EU, please disregard.

Well, it still seems less than, or on par with a US ivy, even paying the international rate. I’m surprised their website wasn’t more clear...

Maybe he can still learn something in a European university, I feel like the US collegiate system is as broken as the school system. 

[8filltheheart]

10 minutes ago, MDL said:

That link has me very disheartened. Wow!

The truth is that it is very disheartening.  According to the schools themselves, they reject 90%+ of qualified applicants.  It is not an easy path to pursue with possible heartache at the end.  For highly motivated students who would pursue that trajectory regardless of college apps being at the end of high school, it is a path that is not fraught with stress bc it is how they normally function.  For kids who are pushing themselves to the max for the sole pursuit of college admissions, it can be a very poor choice.

FWIW, I have a couple of extremely high achieving kids who did not pursue top tier admissions.  (We cannot afford our expected family contribution, so need-based aid institutions are not possible for our kids.)  They pursued high merit scholarships instead. (And by high achieving, I mean graduating high school at 400 level college in some core courses.) Our ds just graduated from the University of Alabama in May.  He attend for free on full-scholarship.  It did not hinder his future aspirations at all.  He was accepted to multiple top grad schools for theoretical physics (cosmology) and will be attending Berkeley in the fall.  His younger sister is a rising sophomore at USCarolina.  She is also attending on scholarship and we equally are not concerned about her future opportunities even though she is also attending a lower ranked school.  (Their older siblings have great careers, and they also did not attend top schools.  Their oldest sibling is a chemical engineer who attended a school not ranked in the top 200 national schools.  He has a fabulous career.)

[Mabelen]

2 hours ago, MDL said:

Well, it still seems less than, or on par with a US ivy, even paying the international rate. I’m surprised their website wasn’t more clear...

Maybe he can still learn something in a European university, I feel like the US collegiate system is as broken as the school system. 

 

If you can get in, depending on major, and if you are full pay in the U.S. yes, they are a good deal even with the overseas rates. Also, they are three year degrees. The only thing is that you can not apply to both, only one or the other.

[MDL]

11 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The truth is that it is very disheartening.  According to the schools themselves, they reject 90%+ of qualified applicants.  It is not an easy path to pursue with possible heartache at the end.  For highly motivated students who would pursue that trajectory regardless of college apps being at the end of high school, it is a path that is not fraught with stress bc it is how they normally function.  For kids who are pushing themselves to the max for the sole pursuit of college admissions, it can be a very poor choice.

FWIW, I have a couple of extremely high achieving kids who did not pursue top tier admissions.  (We cannot afford our expected family contribution, so need-based aid institutions are not possible for our kids.)  They pursued high merit scholarships instead. (And by high achieving, I mean graduating high school at 400 level college in some core courses.) Our ds just graduated from the University of Alabama in May.  He attend for free on full-scholarship.  It did not hinder his future aspirations at all.  He was accepted to multiple top grad schools for theoretical physics (cosmology) and will be attending Berkeley in the fall.  His younger sister is a rising sophomore at USCarolina.  She is also attending on scholarship and we equally are not concerned about her future opportunities even though she is also attending a lower ranked school.  (Their older siblings have great careers, and they also did not attend top schools.  Their oldest sibling is a chemical engineer who attended a school not ranked in the top 200 national schools.  He has a fabulous career.)

Thanks for this encouragement. In my heart I know it doesn’t really matter where he goes to school, but more how he applies himeself/uses the opportunity. 

In all likelyhood, it could be better to hand him $500,000 to seed a business idea after high school vs spending it (and four years!) at college. It will take a long time of hard work to have an investment in (full cost) college education start earning returns. 

My main goal, as parent and teacher, is to not limit his possibilities. 

[8filltheheart]

36 minutes ago, MDL said:

My main goal, as parent and teacher, is to not limit his possibilities. 

There are very few career paths in the US where UG institution will actually limit their future opportunities.  What they do during their UG yrs can make far more of an impact than where they attended. (For example, our oldest ds graduated with with his chemE degreewith  a high GPA and 12 months of co-op experience. We had friends whose ds attended a top engineering school who graduated with his chemE degree at the same time and had no experience. Our ds had multiple excellent job offers before graduation and their ds was unemployed for 6 months post-graduation.)

What field do you think he wants to pursue? 

[Lilaclady]

22 hours ago, Mabelen said:

 

If you can get in, depending on major, and if you are full pay in the U.S. yes, they are a good deal even with the overseas rates. Also, they are three year degrees. The only thing is that you can not apply to both, only one or the other.

Yes you can apply to universities in both UK and US at the same time. They focus on different things so you have to be strategic In applying but students so it every year. 

[medawyn]

1 hour ago, Lilaclady said:

Yes you can apply to universities in both UK and US at the same time. They focus on different things so you have to be strategic In applying but students so it every year. 

You can apply to both US and UK universities in the same year, but you cannot apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year.  

[Mabelen]

1 hour ago, medawyn said:

You can apply to both US and UK universities in the same year, but you cannot apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year.  

This is what I meant, thank you!

[mumto2]

FYI, on UCAS which is the main entry application for UK schools you get five picks......they could all be specific degree programs at a mix of both Oxford and Cambridge but you only get to apply to five programs total.  We know kids who do five picks all at their one uni of choice.......can be good or devastating.  Several stories circulate each year in the media about kids only applying to Oxbridge and getting no offers with all A star exam results.

 Also they don’t check residency until quite far into the process......as in you have been given and accepted an offer then they ask for verification.  You do fill out what you are applying as on the original application but both of ours needed to prove 3years several ways.....listed as a resident on council tax payments is the most obvious and easiest if you live in the UK.  You do this with your final Uni/program choice generally, although we did get some email questions along the way that were relatively simple.