He is very good at math, but hates it so...

[Ann.without.an.e]

I know, I know... I will be told it is because we use Saxon  :lol:   I am so hesitant to let go of it though.  It has created 3 older kids who really know their math.  But youngest DS simply hates it and he is incredibly good at math.  He is 8 and using Saxon 5/4 and everything seems easy and like review to him.  He can do a lot of math in his head easily, even complicated problems.  But he takes FOREVER to finish math each day because he dawdles because he absolutely hates it.  He is so good a math, logic, and problem solving and will do it for fun outside of the assigned curriculum.  I am so afraid of him not getting enough repetition with another program.  At the same time, a program created more for a gifted child would probably be more appropriate.  

 

Talk sense into me.  I need to let go of the fear of something other than Saxon, right?  OR is math just not supposed to be liked and he needs to learn to move on and not dawdle because he thinks it is busy work.

 

 

ETA - I visited this thought at the beginning of the year and ordered Beast Academy 3A and we never really used it. It seems way too easy for him but maybe I am missing something?  Maybe he needs to be in 4A?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Attolia

[kiana]

OR is math just not supposed to be liked and he needs to learn to move on and not dawdle because he thinks it is busy work.

 

No :( :( :( Math can be so much fun!

 

Attolia, I have a PhD in math and I would seriously rather watch paint dry than try to learn from Saxon. It would have killed my enjoyment of math. I don't think it's a horrible program and it can be great for the right learners. But you're describing the exact kid it's a bad fit for. He doesn't need the repetition Saxon has, and honestly he will probably get enough repetition if he's in a curriculum more aimed at his style of learning. 

 

What he needs to learn is that math is not supposed to be easy and tedious. This is a problem a lot of mathematically gifted kids run into, because they are so used to it being easy that by the time they get to something that's actually challenging they have no idea how to think hard about math anymore. Then they decide "Oh I guess I wasn't as smart at math as I thought I was". 

 

I don't have a specific "you should definitely use this" because he's in 5/4. I would seriously consider Beast Academy if you can swing the cost. The Mathematical Reasoning program from the Critical Thinking company may also fit and is a lot cheaper. I would look very hard at AOPS in the long run -- it is the curriculum I would have thrived with, had it been around when I was the right age. 

 

Edit to respond to your edit: But didn't you say that Saxon 5/4 was also way too easy for him? If he worked through BA 3-5, he'd be ready for pre-algebra, and if he worked through Saxon 5/4, 6/5, and 7/6, he'd also be ready for pre-algebra, so it certainly wouldn't be slowing him down. But I'd definitely look at their placement tests anyway. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by kiana

[HomeAgain]

My thought - if math isn't beautiful, it isn't math.

 

Saxon produced tears here, but MUS helped my oldest see how numbers all fit and see their beauty.

 

MUS produced tears, but MEP and Life Of Fred introduced my youngest to the beautiful logic of it all and how it works in real life.

 

I let my kids pick their math from a small number of choices.  The youngest flipped through BA last year but decided on Right Start (he's not as happy with it as he thought, hence, the supplement with Fred).  I really thought he would enjoy BA if he gave it a chance.  It looks deceptively easy, but would have made him think.  He just didn't want comics in math.

 

Find what makes math meaningful for your kid.  It doesn't mean you have to drop Saxon, but you can slow it down and spend one day a week with a supplement.  A unit with TOPS/AIMS?  A Fred book?  Anno's later books?  Hands On Equations?  This Is Not A Math Book?  Donald In Mathemagic Land?  Dragonbox?

 

Just something to get him thinking about why math is necessary, and the answer is not to be able to do a worksheet.

[Ann.without.an.e]

No :( :( :( Math can be so much fun!

 

Attolia, I have a PhD in math and I would seriously rather watch paint dry than try to learn from Saxon.

 

 

Thank you for your thoughts.  I am not good at math and I hated math in school.  I really have no way to tell a "good" program from a "bad" program for a kid who is good at it.  To me, it was all bad.  Oldest DD is exceptional at it.  We used Singapore with her until grade 5 and then switched to Saxon because Singapore (at the time) didn't have a thorough enough solutions set for a mom who is not good at math.  :lol:  I then just sort of switched them all to Saxon.

 

Does anyone know if this is still true of Singapore? You can get an answer key but not a solutions guide?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Attolia

[SanDiegoMom]

 Our personal experience --

 

We used Singapore without a solutions manual, and only used Intensive Practice (which has the answers in the back, just not the solutions).  My son loved math and was very math intuitive (which sounds like your son) and we rarely needed to check the answers, honestly. I also skipped a LOT because there was no sense in doing it if somehow, magically, he already understood it. So we compressed grades 2-5 into one year and then started Pre-A with Art of Problem Solving. 

 

He liked Singapore IP, but what he loved were all the extra math resources I found for him. I used Quark's list of math resources along with any other things I could glean from other math oriented posts, and he just read a ton about math on the side and always came excitedly to show me some new concept he had learned. Some of these resources were things like Murderous Maths, Penrose the Mathematical Cat, The Number Devil, Martin Gardner Puzzles, I signed him up for Brilliant which sends out problems to work on, he watched Vi Hart Videos... etc.  It really nurtured him in those arithmetic years.

 

I don't really get into math myself, so I have always been the librarian, providing resources whenever they were needed. It's been working so far, and now we are just shelling out money for Aops online since we are beyond the point of me even being able to help with his homework. 

 

*When my son was in PS K and 1st he took the longest time to do his math homework, which was like circling the number 5 or adding 2+7.  Because he was so bored to tears, he just hated it. I was afterschooling then and I would pull out the Singapore grade 3 or 4 and he would whiz through that in record time. Its awful to be so bored you literally can't concentrate! 

 

Last thing -- we would have used Beast Academy if it had come out in time. But it came out when he was finished with elem math. He still read it and asked me to print off a lot of the puzzles (I used it with his twin sister). 

[EKS]

I know, I know... I will be told it is because we use Saxon  :lol:   

 

It's because you use Saxon  :D

 

I'm going to suggest something that you're probably not going to like, but...

 

I think that it may help for you to work well ahead of your son.  From what you've said in this thread, it looks like you have been making decisions about what math program to use from a place of ignorance (I'm using the term "ignorance" here to mean simply not knowing, so no judgment, I promise!) and fear rather than what might be best for each child.

 

You could, for example, get the book Elementary Mathematics for Teachers and the recommended Singapore books and work through the exercises it suggests.  This will give you a much stronger understanding of how to teach elementary math and also make it so you don't need a solution manual.

 

I would then move into Algebra I and geometry even if you don't plan to teach it yourself because it is important to know where you're going.

 

I hated math in school too.  I failed prealgebra and retook it in summer school.  I failed Algebra I and retook it in summer school.  I failed geometry and retook it the next year.  Then I got a D- in Algebra II.  But I found that learning math as an adult was a completely different experience.  Learning from the beginning made everything click into place (and it has made me love it to the point that I sometimes even think about getting a master's degree in math).  

Edited February 6, 2018 by EKS

[Arcadia]

He is so good a math, logic, and problem solving and will do it for fun outside of the assigned curriculum. I am so afraid of him not getting enough repetition with another program. At the same time, a program created more for a gifted child would probably be more appropriate.

Is there an elementary school math circle/math club that you could send him to? My younger kid who needs repetition gets enough repetition during test prep. He also learns better when DS13 tutors him. It’s comical that he attends online math class for the social and the pace while DS13 is the one actually teaching him with pencil and paper. DS13 is convinced a teaching career is not the career choice for him.

 

My kids didn’t like Beast Academy but like the wordy AoPS books. They didn’t like the colorful Miller Levine Biology as much as they like the dull Campbell Biology. They also like the dull MCT’s WWtW more than the colorful MCT’s CE. So a curriculum/program for a gifted child might not be the silver bullet.

[vaquitita]

He can do a lot of math in his head easily, even complicated problems. But he takes FOREVER to finish math each day because he dawdles because he absolutely hates it. He is so good a math, logic, and problem solving and will do it for fun outside of the assigned curriculum.

 

My son was very similar, it would take him two hours to do two pages of Math Mammoth. And he hated doing math in school, even tho he enjoyed it and would do it for fun outside of school. I switched him to Beast Academy this year and he is loving it. He told me he can focus now because it's so interesting. Lol

[blondeviolin]

Personally, I'd drop all of the review questions that you feel like he has down. Whittle his problem set down to just ten or so. I love Saxon and how it actually EXPLAINS the why of the procedure. But I don't require my kids to practice what they have mastered. And I know what they need work on because I'm correcting their stuff, KWIM?

 

So, if you really want to keep Saxon, compact it and let him move on.

[Ann.without.an.e]

My son was very similar, it would take him two hours to do two pages of Math Mammoth. And he hated doing math in school, even tho he enjoyed it and would do it for fun outside of school. I switched him to Beast Academy this year and he is loving it. He told me he can focus now because it's so interesting. Lol

 

 

My DS loves comic books.  He taught himself to read at 4 because he was obsessed with Calvin and Hobbes and dying to know what the words said.  He loves the Beast Academy book that we have.  He has read it several times.  

 

Personally, I'd drop all of the review questions that you feel like he has down. Whittle his problem set down to just ten or so. I love Saxon and how it actually EXPLAINS the why of the procedure. But I don't require my kids to practice what they have mastered. And I know what they need work on because I'm correcting their stuff, KWIM?

 

So, if you really want to keep Saxon, compact it and let him move on.

 

 

 

I was considering this today.  I am thinking we may do Beast Academy (because I think he will enjoy it) and do the minimum with Saxon (so that I feel like he is getting it all).  I was thinking ... read the lesson, do the lesson practice, and then pick and choose from mixed practice.

[abacus2]

Let Saxson go completely, not just have him do some of the problems so that you feel comfortable. You have stated clearly that it is a bad fit for him and that he does well in math. Don't smother math enjoyment with your Saxson security blanket. Let him continue his study with something completely different, hopefully something that ignites his interest. If a gifted math student is forced to do math in a way he hates, his entire life may be directed away from the careers most suited to his strengths.

[sweetpea3829]

*said in the voice of Nanny McPhee*

 

"The program you need is Beast Academy"

 

Lol! Seriously, I'd give it another shot. Maybe bump him up to level 4.

 

There's another, online curriculum he might like, but I can't remember what is called. I will check when I get home.

 

It's for accelerated kids. He might be a bit young yet, though.

[sweetpea3829]

Elements of Math through iMACS.

[kiana]

Saxon honestly seems to be kind of a security blanket for you. 

 

Try out the other program. Just try it. Give him a year's worth -- and at the end, see how he's doing, and how he can compute/solve problems. You can always pick the drill back up if it's not working. But give it a try first. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Saxon honestly seems to be kind of a security blanket for you. 

 

 

 

 

Is it a security blanket?  Yes, yes it is  :lol:   Letting go is just such a painful process.  

[Arcadia]

Is it a security blanket? Yes, yes it is :lol: Letting go is just such a painful process.

Is Saxon a security blanket in the sense that

1) it is something you know how to use/teach

2) it has proven results for your oldest

 

(1) is a little harder because using something new does have a learning curve to it. However BA can be self taught so your son can figure out the workbook problems himself like solving puzzles.

 

(2) is easier because things like past years state standardized tests can be use as a quick yardstick that he is retaining and covering whatever you think needs to be covered. I think Saxon tests are longer but state standardized test may not be any shorter either. You already have Saxon so you could just use those tests.

[...................]

I would stick with Saxon if it's working, until 10th or 11th grade and then just let him Dual Enroll! My son hated math all throughout and didn't like Saxon either.  BUT got a 690 on the SAT as a freshman in math...pretty good ....not awesome but great for someone who thought they hated math.  My son is in college (early) now and getting all As in math...he loves it and even helps other kids when they're confused, before class.  He is a favorite of both professors...

 

Once he spreads his wings a bit and finds that Saxon more than prepared him, he will probably love math again.  Saxon is annoying.  All that review, review...etc.  BUT if it works I wouldn't let go of it just yet :)

 

Edited to say:  PS While I agree that it's sad that math can be so dry when it could be so much better....I was in your boat, that I cannot personally teach math.  Tutors are hard to find and only come once or twice per week.  We looked at those "self teaching" programs (khan, TT,) and they fell short of what he needed as a future computer science major.  We looked at the online programs meant to teach itself (ALEKS) and tried it for a few months and felt it was leaving huge gaps.  Saxon was the only thing that worked for me, because with the DVD's he truly could "teach himself."  

 

The problem here was two gifted math students, and a mom that couldn't teach math well.  :(  Now we have our daughter enrolled full time at Mathnasium and we are just lucky- they grandfathered her in since she was the first student at their center, she gets to go 5 days per week until she graduates.  So all she does is Mathnasium and she is amazing at math, she loves it, they love her there the whole thing is love love love....but we did not have that option with my son :(  

 

In the end, he is glad we used something that worked, consistently and gave him an amazing foundation. He has no regrets.

 

Edited again to say:  He WOULD have regrets if I had switched programs too much and left him with a shaky foundation....we've actually discussed it and he would do it all over again, given the same situation.  Given a choice, he would have loved to go to Mathnasium 5 days per week like his sister of course.  But that was not the choice then.

 

SO My idea would be instead of switching curriculum either.

1. Stick with Saxon

2.  Outsource math to something nearby (not online) and very consistent and trustworthy (a private school, a Math Center, etc. etc.) 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Calming Tea

[abacus2]

Math instruction that results in good test scores and hatred of math does not "work" in my opinion. Saxson is not the only good program available. I would be leary of an unfamiliar program if you don't feel confident in your own ability to assess a program, but any of the regularly recommended options here can be relied on.

Edited February 7, 2018 by abacus2

[Homeschoolmom3]

Ha...I hear ya!  I had two of my kids using Saxon up until Algebra and then we switched but it did lay a good foundation.  My kids liked it but ONLY because they liked "not" to think outside the box which could be a problem in higher math but it didn't cause a problem for my kids.  I liked it because I am NOT a math teacher and that is my weakest subject it was nice to have it laid out and where I "couldn't" mess up.  Ha!  My kids liked worksheets and the independence...crazy!  So if it is because it is taking too long which might be part of the reason... I would cut it in half....do odd one day and in the next lesson do odd.  That's what we did.  It seemed to work just fine.  I think there are too many problems for a day!  However, with my youngest I am coming out of my comfort zone and trying something new...less problems more deep understanding and oral problems....not worksheets.  Funny I think he'd prefer Saxon because of the love of worksheets and not having to explain himself and how he got an answer...ha ha!  Too bad....anyway I would try that if you want to stay with Saxon...its not all bad and it is tried and true.  Good luck!

[...................]

Math instruction that results in good test scores and hatred of math does not "work" in my opinion. Saxson is not the only good program available. I would be leary of an unfamiliar program if you don't feel confident in your own ability to assess a program, but any of the regularly recommended options here can be relied on.

 

Gfited math students stuck at home with a mom who can't teach math well, will not like ANY of these programs:

 

Horizons

Math U See 

Math Mammoth

Saxon

etc. etc.

 

 

The only programs they might like are probably AOPS, Beast, Singapore, and maybe maybe later on, Foerster's but you know what?? A non math mom can't teach those programs.  The problem here is just as much the teacher as the curriculum, trust me, because I lived that scenario.  Saxon provides a platform so that it can really truly be done almost completely independently....all the way through...

 

Outsourcing is a better option, but that's not always financially or even logistically available.  

 

I just want to say that there's nothing wrong with using a security blanket if that's what you need, and if you cannot find or afford consistent (3 day per week) outsourcing, and Saxon is your option, your child can learn to love math after hating Saxon....

 

I am not saying you should stick with Saxon.  There might be many other options to consider.  But I am just saying not everything in life is perfect.

 

BUT you could try skipping some problems. :)

[blondeviolin]

I never understand the Saxon-is-death mentality. I am very mathy and I love the foundation it lays for my mathy and non-mathy children alike. I do feel free to teach the lessons the way I want, but a lot of the instruction is spot on. And, in all honesty, a good math teacher can take nearly any curriculum and make it conceptual.

 

FWIW, I also really like Beast Academy, but my older two did not retain a ton after a year of BA 3.

[SparklyUnicorn]

FWIW, my kid hates math, but is good at it.   We don't use Saxon.  I've tried everything.