US people - talk to me about AP classes

[nobeatenpath]

Due to the fact that we have decided to follow a US-style highschool plan but our son is probably going to go to university in the UK or Europe (if he goes to University) he will need to take at least three AP classes and get decent grades in them. We have a fair bit of time to plan this (we are taking 5-6 years to do highschool) but I realise we have to get all our 'ducks lined up in a row' if we are going to make this happen.

 

To be competitive for anything needing Maths he will have to take AP Calculus. He has completed Algebra I, is doing Geometry. So does he do Algebra II, Pre-Calc then AP Calculus?

To be competitive for anything in Engineering or Physics (his 'kind of' areas of interest) he needs to take AP Physics.

So then we need a third AP subject. Are AP grades/official confirmation only available through exams? Is there any way as a homeschooler he can do something like an in-depth history study then submit papers and a portfolio somewhere for accreditation? Or a portfolio of artworks and a written project? Keep in mind we have no access to Community Colleges/DE so it is either online courses or we do it at home.

 

He will also need to take the SAT and get a good mark to be competitive. However the advantage we have is most places really only care about the SAT and those 3 (or more) AP grades so we have leeway on trying to 'cover everything' AND get good APs. I just want to make sure he obviously has the background learning and ability to tackle them IYKWIM.

 

Any comments, suggestions or questions welcome.

 

ETA - thanks Laura, I forgot to mention that! Not only is a US highschool diploma not considered 'high level' enough for University entrance (it is about the same as GCSEs, so below the A levels required for University entrance) you need official 'tested' grades to be considered seriously.

Edited November 22, 2016 by nobeatenpath

[Laura Corin]

Just so that Path's thread doesn't get diverted: the requirement for APs is not unique to home educators.  The UK does not have transcripts, so public exams are usually the only way to get into university here.  Here's one example of requirements for a (not very prestigious) UK university:

 

https://le.ac.uk/student-life/international-students/countries-list/north-america/usa

Edited November 22, 2016 by Laura Corin

[regentrude]

Due to the fact that we have decided to follow a US-style highschool plan but our son is probably going to go to university in the UK or Europe (if he goes to University) he will need to take at least three AP classes and get decent grades in them. 

 

He does not need to take any AP classes. He needs to learn the material and take the AP exam and get a good score there. The only thing that counts is the exam score.

He can self study or take a course; it does not matter how he learns the stuff - but he needs to take the official AP exam.

 

ETA: Have you looked into achieving certification from a European school system by taking their end of course exams? I know that it is possible to complete the German Abitur even if not enrolled in a German school, via taking the respective exams.

Edited November 22, 2016 by regentrude

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've never heard that AP is some sort of requirement. And no of course there is no non testing option because how else would they make money without being able to charge for the testing?  

 

As a homeschooler though you can take the tests no problem.  If you really want to go that route, the easiest way to make sure you prepare for the specifics of individual tests is to get a test prep book (along with studying the subject). 

 

The purpose, as far as I understand it, is that some colleges will convert good AP scores into credit that counts for that subject.  But emphasis on "some". 

[Laura Corin]

The purpose, as far as I understand it, is that some colleges will convert good AP scores into credit that counts for that subject.  But emphasis on "some". 

 

That's not how it works outside the US.  Particularly in England, where university degrees are often only three years, AP level (or A level) is the starting point for the degree, not something for extra credit.

[nobeatenpath]

He does not need to take any AP classes. He needs to learn the material and take the AP exam and get a good score there.

 

 

Yes of course. My apologies for not being clear!

 

That's not how it works outside the US.  Particularly in England, where university degrees are often only three years, AP level (or A level) is the starting point for the degree, not something for extra credit.

 

 

Laura is exactly right. Things outside the US are considerably different when it comes to university, and I am not interested in my son doing AP exams to claim extra credit - he needs the AP scores to even apply. I know this is also the case for many Australian universities that he needs relevant subject SAT and/or ACT scores, or apply with AP credits (another country he would consider). If we were to apply to another choice - Hokkaido University - since he does not fit the traditional Japanese standard of '12 years of schooling' for application we have to have a good metric for him to be considered, and the baseline for that in a US context would be good SAT score + 3 good AP scores as a minimum for the competitive course he would be interested in doing.

Edited November 22, 2016 by nobeatenpath

[mumto2]

The only AP with a portfolio requirement is Studio Art. https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-studio-art-2-d-design/about-the-portfolio. Not sure if there is a location for that exam in the UK anymore.

 

Remember SAT Subject exams are also used by several schools in the UK for American Students so a combination of AP and Subject exams might work. This is a question for the admissions people at the Uni you are hoping for.

 

Another thing you should be aware of is the last time I looked different AP exams were sorted onto two tiers by many Uni's with Calculus being a higher tier than Art History (those are all I can remember and can't find the link).

 

Regarding the Calculus exam a good review book pays off. He should be ready after he takes Calculus but like everything it depends on what was covered in his course. Also knowing the format helps.

 

Also the ACT is acceptable at all the Uni's we have looked at.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's not how it works outside the US.  Particularly in England, where university degrees are often only three years, AP level (or A level) is the starting point for the degree, not something for extra credit.

 

Ah interesting.  That I did not know!  Here it strikes me as something shiny to put on the college application. 

[Guest]

Ah interesting. That I did not know! Here it strikes me as something shiny to put on the college application.

Its not shine, its college prep. If the kid isnt at that level, he is going to be putting in more study than a prepared student if he is at a top SUNY. My son's bud at UB for ex, found that he is sitting in gen ed chem 101 with the prof assuming AP Chem or DE Chem ...and he found out the hard way on the first test...asked how his study group knew answers to test material not covered in class...all covered in high school so he had to put more time in.

Our experience is that high school has been dumbed down. AP covers what was college prep high school in my day. Regents Physics here is taught well, but it omits units it used to include, so self study is a must if one wants to score well on SAT2s. And AP Physics is an excellent transition to engineering college, if taught correctly.

[Laura Corin]

Here's one university that splits up preferred and non-preferred APs.  The non-preferred count as half an AP for entrance, it seems:

 

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/international/students/yourcountry/northandcentralamerica/usa/entryrequirements/

 

It's a very rough and ready system, as it inevitably will be when trying to combine different ways of doing things.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Laura Corin

[SparklyUnicorn]

Its not shine, its college prep. If the kid isnt at that level, he is going to be putting in more study than a prepared student if he is at a top SUNY. My son's bud at UB for ex, found that he is sitting in gen ed chem 101 with the prof assuming AP Chem or DE Chem ...and he found out the hard way on the first test...asked how his study group knew answers to test material not covered in class...all covered in high school so he had to put more time in.

Our experience is that high school has been dumbed down. AP covers what was college prep high school in my day. Regents Physics here is taught well, but it omits units it used to include, so self study is a must if one wants to score well on SAT2s. And AP Physics is an excellent transition to engineering college, if taught correctly.

 

That makes sense. 

 

I guess for me I feel like we can do the rigor at home without paying for AP tests (and AP test prep).  I realize that's different in public school though.

[madteaparty]

I don't want to derail this thread, but is there *any* path for a us- educated person ( homeschool or otherwise) to certain European universities if you don't have the IB diploma? I am familiar with one very competitive UK school because that's DS's first choice and I know there is an "AP plus" path there. But I was looking at this school (not bc my DS is interested in sciences but because there's a family connection) and it seems only "IB plus" to start the 3 year program and not to have to do the "prep" year. Is this school unique or is my reading comprehension lacking?

http://bachelor.epfl.ch/cms/site/bachelor2/lang/en/admission-1st-year

[Laura Corin]

I don't want to derail this thread, but is there *any* path for a us- educated person ( homeschool or otherwise) to certain European universities if you don't have the IB diploma? I am familiar with one very competitive UK school because that's DS's first choice and I know there is an "AP plus" path there. But I was looking at this school (not bc my DS is interested in sciences but because there's a family connection) and it seems only "IB plus" to start the 3 year program and not to have to do the "prep" year. Is this school unique or is my reading comprehension lacking?

http://bachelor.epfl.ch/cms/site/bachelor2/lang/en/admission-1st-year

 

It looks as if APs work.

 

https://www.swissuniversities.ch/en/services/admission-to-universities/countries/usa/

 

[Guest]

That makes sense.

 

I guess for me I feel like we can do the rigor at home without paying for AP tests (and AP test prep). I realize that's different in public school though.

I outsourced AP Physics 1, as it isnt offered here in the high school, and I was too ill to facilitate self study. Worth every penny. Yes, he could have self studied, but taught by an ivy league PhD physicist who was an excellent teacher...no comparison. The test we didnt care about as AP 1 is not calc based (although several students did use calc instead of algebra as the teacher had no issue with it), but it does validate the learning and he was one of the few who learned the problem solving approach well enough to score high. That, and how to do a proper lab report, is not taught in Regents Physics. Neither were taught in the alg based DE Physics 101 and 102 course at our CC either...my other son took those and found they werent serious courses, just a check off for nursing students, and frankly the ex-engineer who teaches Regents at the high school covered more material, and more in depth, and its still not enough to score high on the Sat2 subject test. Edited November 22, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[regentrude]

I've never heard that AP is some sort of requirement. 

 

It is, in countries that have high school exit exams which determine whether a student is eligible to enter university.

If an American student wants to go to college in Germany and does not have the Abitur, the high school diploma alone is insufficient; AP exams are a form of validation of educational outcome.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is, in countries that have high school exit exams which determine whether a student is eligible to enter university.

If an American student wants to go to college in Germany and does not have the Abitur, the high school diploma alone is insufficient; AP exams are a form of validation of educational outcome.

 

Well the title of the thread said "Replying to US people - talk to me about AP classes".  I wouldn't have said a word had it been questions about the requirements of other countries because I have no clue about that.  Maybe I misunderstood the request.  I just think in the US one can manage without it (especially as a homeschooler).

[regentrude]

Well the title of the thread said "Replying to US people - talk to me about AP classes".  I wouldn't have said a word had it been questions about the requirements of other countries because I have no clue about that.  Maybe I misunderstood the request.  I just think in the US one can manage without it (especially as a homeschooler).

 

In her first sentence, the OP writes: "Due to the fact that we have decided to follow a US-style highschool plan but our son is probably going to go to university in the UK or Europe"

[SparklyUnicorn]

In her first sentence, the OP writes: "Due to the fact that we have decided to follow a US-style highschool plan but our son is probably going to go to university in the UK or Europe"

 

Yes.  I am confused by the question.  LOL

 

sorry.

[regentrude]

Yes.  I am confused by the question.  LOL sorry.

 

Why? The family is overseas, the student has been home educated following a US course of study, and now he needs to provide additional validation to gain entry into a European university, with AP being an internationally recognized form of such validation. Makes sense to me.

[Arcadia]

When we toured a Canadian university we like for its engineering program, the engineering school stated that they want scores for math, physics, chemistry and English for international applicants. So that makes my oldest very happy. For Europe, we are looking at 4 AP scores and a good English score as we are also considering Germany, Switzerland and UK. The 4th AP would likely be economics or statistics for my kids due to interest.

[nobeatenpath]

In the hope a few people are still reading this 😄 - is it 'normal practice' to take high school chemistry then AP chemistry, or is it assumed going in to AP chemistry that you haven't done 'regular' chemistry already?

[regentrude]

In the hope a few people are still reading this 😄 - is it 'normal practice' to take high school chemistry then AP chemistry, or is it assumed going in to AP chemistry that you haven't done 'regular' chemistry already?

 

In public school, that is usually the sequence, but an AP course and any introductory college course does start at the beginning and does not actually assume any previous knowledge. So, it is not that a student could not start with the AP without a previous class, it is just that it will be easier for most students if they had prior exposure to the material. Otherwise they may have trouble with the pace.

 

This said, in my engineering physics course for example I have 25% of students who never had any high school physics at all. We start from the beginning, and do not assume they know anything but math.

[Loesje22000]

I'm still folowing the thread :)

 

I'm not sure I can help.

 

I think, (thinking of the Netherlands) that 4 AP's is better. And your AP's should be aligned with what you plan to study:

 

http://www.tudelft.nl/en/study/studying-at-the-tu-delft/admission-and-application/undergraduate-programmes-with-international-diploma/admission-requirements/american-high-school/

http://www.wur.nl/en/Education-Programmes/Prospective-Bachelor-Students/Show-SSC/Can-I-be-admitted-to-a-Bachelor-programme.htm

http://www.ucr.nl/admissions/requirements/Pages/International-Diploma-Requirements.aspx

 

Dutch Universities don't have general requirements at University level.

 

Belgium has less requirements.

[nobeatenpath]

Thanks both. Yes Loesjee we would probably aim for 4APs. Of course our son is only 12 so has no definitive study path yet - two weeks ago he wanted to study ballet at the RAD in London, before that he wanted to study physics 😀 But from experience we know it is usually harder to pick up sciences and maths 'later down the track' than humanities; and that if he wants to study a STEM degree it is more likely to have particular pre-requisite subjects than say a history degree. Hence we are trying to make sure we have maths and science sequences organised now.

[justasque]

In the hope a few people are still reading this 😄 - is it 'normal practice' to take high school chemistry then AP chemistry, or is it assumed going in to AP chemistry that you haven't done 'regular' chemistry already?

 

In the public and private schools around here students typically take "regular" chem (college-prep or honors) in sophomore year, then AP in junior (concurrent with physics) or senior year.  

 

The overall science sequence is usually honors or college-prep bio, chem, and physics (in 9th, 10th, and 11th) then for STEM-oriented kids either a science AP in senior year, or two in senior year, or one each junior and senior year.  Some schools require four years of science even for non-STEM kids; they will often take something like anatomy or environmental science (AP or not) or another less-mathy science senior year.

[daijobu]

In the hope a few people are still reading this 😄 - is it 'normal practice' to take high school chemistry then AP chemistry, or is it assumed going in to AP chemistry that you haven't done 'regular' chemistry already?

 

In regular US schools, I think it is often normal practice to take some other chemistry class before AP.  But then that leaves the last year or 2 of high school to cram in several science APs, if you want to do that.  I wanted dd to have a few science APs, so we started freshman year with AP chemistry.  She'd only had middle school science which includes some, but not a lot, of chemistry.  (Covalent and ionic bonds and the octet rule.)  She worked very hard in that class as nearly all the material was new to her.  But it was her only science class and only AP that year, so she had the luxury of devoting much of her intellectual energy to learning the material really well.   This year is AP bio, next year is AP physics.  

 

I hear about students enrolled in regular school who can't take an AP unless they've had a prerequisite class in the same department.  That's fine, but then if you want to take a bunch of science APs you have less time to do it before graduation.  But maybe that's balanced by the fact that the AP classes themselves are easier?  

[Arcadia]

In the hope a few people are still reading this 😄 - is it 'normal practice' to take high school chemistry then AP chemistry, or is it assumed going in to AP chemistry that you haven't done 'regular' chemistry already?

 

 

The local high schools expect prior knowledge so either a prior high school chem class or approval from the AP chem teacher. For self study or with a tutor, you just go at your own pace.

 

 

Of course our son is only 12 so has no definitive study path yet - two weeks ago he wanted to study ballet at the RAD in London, before that he wanted to study physics 😀 .

My turning 12 boy has no definite idea either except no careers needing biology but he would be taking SAT biology just in case he likes a US university. Since your son is 12, I would go for AP for the usual three sciences plus AP calculus AB or BC. If you aim for an AP science per year, you would have all three done by 11th grade. The reason is that Europe typically does direct admission to the respective schools so if he decide on School of Medicine or School of Pharmocology/Pharmacy, he would likely need the biology prereq.

[nobeatenpath]

My turning 12 boy has no definite idea either except no careers needing biology

 

 

My husband (who did straight Science in highschool but no biology) has convinced my son that he doesn't want to do biology, so I get this! I am pretty sure he will never do Medicine, so unless he has a major change of mind that would be a big uphill push. He is more than likely going to go in to Engineering, Physics or Pure Maths if he goes STEM, all of which he can do without Biology.

Of course Biology is the one science where I could be of any use helping him with the material ...

[RootAnn]

My husband (who did straight Science in highschool but no biology) has convinced my son that he doesn't want to do biology, so I get this! I am pretty sure he will never do Medicine, so unless he has a major change of mind that would be a big uphill push. He is more than likely going to go in to Engineering, Physics or Pure Maths if he goes STEM, all of which he can do without Biology.

 

This is an unpopular opinion on here, I've found. :coolgleamA:  My eldest will probably not do biology in high school. :driving: We aren't looking at any tough-to-get-in schools, probably only state schools and none of them specifically require biology. I don't see STEM as a possibility for this kid, although maybe she'll do something with Math. However, I do know some schools list a year of biology as part of their science requirements, so make sure to check possible schools' entrance requirements!

[JanetC]

Make sure you find a location to take AP exams early. These tests are administered by high schools and many do not accept outside students. You cannot register directly with the College Board; you have to find a school that is willing to administer the test for you. The problems can be worse if you need accomodations and can't just be one more kid in the room.

[nobeatenpath]

However, I do know some schools list a year of biology as part of their science requirements, so make sure to check possible schools' entrance requirements!

 

 

Of course :) But I know for many Australian and UK universities it is not a prerequisite as much as it is in the US. Again, the University system is a lot different and students often start specialising a lot earlier in their University career.