S/O: College views, expectations

[StephanieZ]

But are they going there with the attitude of never using their degree because their passion is something completely unrelated?  

 

Most I met whose parents made them still knew they needed a degree.

 

I guess the people I have met are different.

 

This concept of it being necessary to "use" your degree is a little personal to me as a homeschooling parent, lol.

 

I have a BS & MS. The only work I've done since the MS has not required any degree whatsoever. I have homeschooled my kiddos and I've done a little fill in work for my aunt's business for a day a week for a year or two (a decade ago) and then I've managed our vet hospital. No degrees required for any of those things. My business management stuff requires a lot of smarts, but in business and people management, not in ecology/biology where my degrees are. 

 

I never intend to use my degrees again. I've never used the MS to earn a dollar. 

 

So what? I got the undergrad for modest costs using money my parents easily provided and scholarships I'd earned. The grad degree cost me a bit beyond the stipends I earned, so I borrowed some $$. I eventually paid it back. It'd have been nice not to owe that $$ (and I will encourage my kids to avoid student loans if possible), but I have 0 regrets about going. I met dh there. I bought my first house there and actually made enough profit on it that I could have repaid all my student loans with the profit if I hadn't plowed them back into the next house we bought (which was actually a much better idea) . . . I learned a lot and had a great time. And, I met dh!! 

 

So, anyway, I have no qualms about kids getting all the education they want if they can do it debt free. And if they can be well educated, have fun, and then end up lucky enough to not have to work using the degree(s), then more power to them. I want smart kids raising my grand babies some day . . . LOL

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

ETA - I keep coming back to - if someone expects their kids will go to university, even if they are willing to pay for the whole thing, do they also have every intention of paying for a second set of training for the child for whom that doesn't offer a career direction that is what they are most interested or talented in?  I can't see how anyone can know, with a child, enough to expect that they will want to do the kind of work, for a lifetime, that university will best prepare them for - they might be much more inclined to something else.

 

Are they on their own, in that case, for finding training in career skills?  Or is it that people who take this view are just well off enough to be able to put their kids through two separate types of post-secondary education?

 

When it comes to university kids who aren't sure of their ultimate life direction, I have seen many parents and counselors encouraging the student toward neutral degrees like English, History, and Biology. An undergrad degree in any of those fields can leave the door open to many graduate school routes or you can get your teaching certificate and get a decent job at a high school. I know several people with history degrees who later decided to go to law school, someone with a history degree who went to dental school, and someone with a psychology degree who went on to get his master's in occupational therapy. All of these people were unsure of what they wanted to do while in college so a neutral degree was a good choice. All of them were able to pursue graduate work that wouldn't have been possible without a BS in something.

 

Yes, a college degree is worth it. No, you will not have to start from scratch if you decide to change careers later on. It's much easier as an adult with a family to spend 1 year getting a teaching certificate or 2 years getting a master's degree than to be starting from scratch, because you never went to college in the first place. And if they later choose to go into a career that doesn't require a degree or decide to stay at home with their children, then I don't consider that a waste either. Education and knowledge are never a waste.

[DawnM]

 

ETA - I keep coming back to - if someone expects their kids will go to university, even if they are willing to pay for the whole thing, do they also have every intention of paying for a second set of training for the child for whom that doesn't offer a career direction that is what they are most interested or talented in?  I can't see how anyone can know, with a child, enough to expect that they will want to do the kind of work, for a lifetime, that university will best prepare them for - they might be much more inclined to something else.

 

Are they on their own, in that case, for finding training in career skills?  Or is it that people who take this view are just well off enough to be able to put their kids through two separate types of post-secondary education?

 

Eh, that just depends.  I think we all have a "cut off" point.  For some that may be high school, for others, a 4 year degree, for others, pay through grad school.

 

So far, our plan is to just offer a 100% payment of the local 4 year college while living at home.  Anything more, they will need to cover the difference.

 

That is what we can afford in our current situation.

 

If I can find a job, I can probably offer more.

 

We have actually told our kids that going lower cost in undergrad and spending the bigger bucks in grad school is a good idea.

 

But it is all up in the air.

 

My parents paid for my undergrad and one MA.  I paid for the 2nd one.

[regentrude]

I really don't understand the argument "well it is harder to get the degree later when you have a mortgage/kids/etc."  That works the other way as well, once you have a degree, you have spent time and money, and gone on with life - more time and money for some other kind of training may no longer be an easy option. 

 

I often have non-traditional students who return to college later in life when they have families, and yes, it is a lot harder for them because they cannot focus exclusively on their studies like students who go to college without such responsibilities. They tend not to participate in tutoring and help sessions after classes because they are rushing home to take care of kids, meet the school bus, want to be home at night. (I had one student who only managed to pass my class after several attempts once he got an apartment in town and stayed over several nights a week instead of going home.) Juggling childcare and dealing with sick children makes it more difficult to consistently attend class.

 

What I see is that the students who return to college later are usually more motivated, but also have a harder time learning if they have been out of school for decades. The motivation usually compensates for that, but as soon as you throw in family responsibilities, it's tough. Anybody who goes to college while caring for children has my highest respect. It is SO much easier to get the degree out of the way before kids.

ETA: And forget about challenging schools with a tough work load. A college where the regular students regularly work 18 hour days is simply not doable with a family.

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[Jean in Newcastle]

The community college that ds will be going to has transfer degree tracks that have been coordinated with all the state schools in our state. They have a highly successful transfer rate (I forget the actual numbers). I've been pleasantly surprised.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hornblower]

 

ETA - I keep coming back to - if someone expects their kids will go to university, even if they are willing to pay for the whole thing, do they also have every intention of paying for a second set of training for the child for whom that doesn't offer a career direction that is what they are most interested or talented in?  I can't see how anyone can know, with a child, enough to expect that they will want to do the kind of work, for a lifetime, that university will best prepare them for - they might be much more inclined to something else.

 

Are they on their own, in that case, for finding training in career skills?  Or is it that people who take this view are just well off enough to be able to put their kids through two separate types of post-secondary education?

The flip side is true too. I don't see how a young student can expect to know that they'll be happy with vocational certificate or diploma or trade & will not maybe regret it later or feel their options are limited & have to go back to school for a degree. 

 

I don't see the university degree as vocational so I don't expect it to necessarily lead to a career. I would hope that by sometime around the midpoint they would have an idea of what they want to do & how to get there but I'm ok with not knowing. We can handle the tuition for a 4 year program for both kids. After that we'd see what's going on.

 

it's not uncommon here for people to get a degree at SFU or UBC and then do a certificate at BCIT or KPU for something more specifically focused. That degree is not a waste though; it will help them advance & if in a few years they add a Master's (in management etc) then they're on a really good track for promotions in the field. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by hornblower

[Bluegoat]

When it comes to university kids who aren't sure of their ultimate life direction, I have seen many parents and counselors encouraging the student toward neutral degrees like English, History, and Biology. An undergrad degree in any of those fields can leave the door open to many graduate school routes or you can get your teaching certificate and get a decent job at a high school. I know several people with history degrees who later decided to go to law school, someone with a history degree who went to dental school, and someone with a psychology degree who went on to get his master's in occupational therapy. All of these people were unsure of what they wanted to do while in college so a neutral degree was a good choice. All of them were able to pursue graduate work that wouldn't have been possible without a BS in something.

 

Yes, a college degree is worth it. No, you will not have to start from scratch if you decide to change careers later on. It's much easier as an adult with a family to spend 1 year getting a teaching certificate or 2 years getting a master's degree than to be starting from scratch, because you never went to college in the first place. And if they later choose to go into a career that doesn't require a degree or decide to stay at home with their children, then I don't consider that a waste either. Education and knowledge are never a waste.

People with a neutral  BA are among the most likely to find they do in fact need additional training, they can only get a very low paying job with the degree itself.  It might be the case they will want to go on and be a lawyer, but there is also a real possibility that they won't, and that is a fair bit of debt to take on - even as a Canadian, I've had friends who found it difficult. 

 

I know many people who took that path and either didn't finish because they were not motivated, or went on almost immediately to do something like a trade, and they didn't always consider that they were well advised to have done the degree first, even if they enjoyed it.  They felt, on the contrary, they were told to go to university rather than pursue a trade, or something else, directly mainly because of classist assumptions about what is "good" work, what smart kids are supposed to do - not because it fit their personality or talents.

 

But decisions at that point, ideally, are going to be made based on a particular child who is well on his or her way to being mature.  So - whether it is a better bet to start in BA, or do something else, should be made with some sense of the person, and there is a real possibility of a well-educated guess.

 

The OP didn't actually say anything about kids unsure of their direction though, and yet there are still people who feel that they expect all kids to go to university so long as they aren't actually unable.  It is absolutely possible that the child could be quite sure of wanting a path that would require something different than university.  I gave an example up-thread of a friend of mine who was very sure about what he wanted to do in forestry, and pursued it until, 15 or 20 years later, he was in his ideal spot.So I think it is reasonable to ask - if a parent expects such a child to get a BA first, will there be help afterwards for the other types of education?  Will the parents be disappointed if the child says "actually, I want to get started on this now, because it is a lifetime study in its own way?  Or "since I will be the one with the loan, I am not going to spend it on a degree that has minimal interest or use for me?" 

 

How is it worth it, as you say, from a career perspective, to get a degree in something the student knows isn't where he wants to go?  When he has other ideas, maybe not even so specific as one job in particular, but for example wanting to work in a different type of career working with hands, or wanting to live in a place where college level jobs aren't common?  I  and my husband both have degrees, my dh works in his, but I can't see how I could have some generalized expectation of having one type of child rather than another.

[Bluegoat]

dp.

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

Eh, that just depends.  I think we all have a "cut off" point.  For some that may be high school, for others, a 4 year degree, for others, pay through grad school.

 

So far, our plan is to just offer a 100% payment of the local 4 year college while living at home.  Anything more, they will need to cover the difference.

 

That is what we can afford in our current situation.

 

If I can find a job, I can probably offer more.

 

We have actually told our kids that going lower cost in undergrad and spending the bigger bucks in grad school is a good idea.

 

But it is all up in the air.

 

My parents paid for my undergrad and one MA.  I paid for the 2nd one.

 

So, here is my issue.  If your child wants to get training that isn't offered in a university, but you expect him to go to university, and you can only afford to really help with university, that seems like you are leaving him in the lurch a little.

 

To me, under those circumstances, and as a person who highly values the kind of work that happens at the university, I would have no expectations that I would be better off paying for the university rather than the other type of education.  A means to make a living that is a pretty good fit over the long term is an important and long-term goal, and if that in real terms conflicted with offering universityeducation, I am not going to expect my kids to forego it.

[regentrude]

How is it worth it, as you say, from a career perspective, to get a degree in something the student knows isn't where he wants to go?  When he has other ideas, maybe not even so specific as one job in particular, but for example wanting to work in a different type of career working with hands, or wanting to live in a place where college level jobs aren't common?

 

My DS has career plans that will not require a college degree. He wants to be a professional athlete and, after his active career, open his own training facility.

However, we strongly encourage him to complete a college degree right after high school: for practical reasons as a fall back in case of a career ending injury, as qualification for the part time job he will need to live on while he works towards his athletic goals, as a way to open more options - and because education is always a good thing and never wasted.

I consider it much easier to just knock out a four year degree right out of high school than to choose at a later time to come back to school, maybe under pressure of external constraints. Just get that piece of paper that says BA. Better to have and not need it than to need and not have it.

 

ETA: If my child had a definite interest in some other kind of training, I'd be happy to have him go this route - welding certification, certified HVAC technician. This would serve the same purpose. Alas, for a student who is NOT interested in any kind of vocational training, having a college degree seems the best way.

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[DawnM]

So, here is my issue.  If your child wants to get training that isn't offered in a university, but you expect him to go to university, and you can only afford to really help with university, that seems like you are leaving him in the lurch a little.

 

To me, under those circumstances, and as a person who highly values the kind of work that happens at the university, I would have no expectations that I would be better off paying for the university rather than the other type of education.  A means to make a living that is a pretty good fit over the long term is an important and long-term goal, and if that in real terms conflicted with offering universityeducation, I am not going to expect my kids to forego it.

 

No.....we are saying financially we can definitely afford that.  They can go elsewhere, but they MAY have to cover the difference in that case.

 

But overall, our local 4 year school offers a lot, including engineering, which is of interest to him.  BUT, it isn't the flagship school.  If he were to get into our flagship school for engineering we would try to figure out how to help him more.

 

Oh wait, just re-read your question.......so are you asking what I would do if my child wants training that is offered elsewhere, besides a college?  Can you give an example?

 

My oldest is currently at the CC and will do a trade/tech program.  I am fine with that and will pay for it.

[hornblower]

I think what Bluegoat is asking is 

what happens if you pay for a 4 year degree like a BA in history or English or Psychology  and at the end your child has no job, no career & now wants to be take a trade / vocational certificate / diploma to actually get work.  Would the family pay for that too. 

 

The answer for our family is yes. 

[Bluegoat]

I often have non-traditional students who return to college later in life when they have families, and yes, it is a lot harder for them because they cannot focus exclusively on their studies like students who go to college without such responsibilities. They tend not to participate in tutoring and help sessions after classes because they are rushing home to take care of kids, meet the school bus, want to be home at night. (I had one student who only managed to pass my class after several attempts once he got an apartment in town and stayed over several nights a week instead of going home.) Juggling childcare and dealing with sick children makes it more difficult to consistently attend class.

 

What I see is that the students who return to college later are usually more motivated, but also have a harder time learning if they have been out of school for decades. The motivation usually compensates for that, but as soon as you throw in family responsibilities, it's tough. Anybody who goes to college while caring for children has my highest respect. It is SO much easier to get the degree out of the way before kids.

ETA: And forget about challenging schools with a tough work load. A college where the regular students regularly work 18 hour days is simply not doable with a family.

 

Yes, but you know it is also very difficult, having earned a degree, to go back to school for something else.  Even something like joining the military, or changing a career, if it means a significant pay cut, can be difficult with a family, when you are further on in life.  I did a diploma after my degree - they were complimentary, and I had no debt, but it was still more difficult because I was at a point in my life where I wanted a bit more stability.  My cousin did an electricians diploma, after a history degree he did because people told him good students go to university.  Even though not many of those kinds of jobs were available in his rural village.

 

I just cannot for the life of me see how it normally makes sense for someone who sees their life's work in another direction to spend limited money, or even take free education when only one shot will be offered on those terms, on something that doesn't help get them there.

 

There are many people, who are capable of university studies, for whom the type of life the university prepares them for would not be the one they most enjoyed.  For people like that they are more likely to end trying to get some other training, on top of their degree, unler less than ideal circumstances.

[regentrude]

Yes, but you know it is also very difficult, having earned a degree, to go back to school for something else.  Even something like joining the military, or changing a career, if it means a significant pay cut, can be difficult with a family, when you are further on in life.  

 

How is it more difficult to do so after having the college degree than without having the college degree?

As I wrote, I was not talking about a student who has a clear vision of an alternate route of education, which I would happy to oblige.

If anything, it would be easier to change course already having the college coursework for a BA than starting completely from scratch at a later age.

 

I just cannot for the life of me see how it normally makes sense for someone who sees their life's work in another direction to spend limited money, or even take free education when only one shot will be offered on those terms, on something that doesn't help get them there.

 

I am greatly puzzled by this view point.  By the same token, a high school student interested in literature who does not envision herself in a scientific career should not need a math education beyond prealgebra; a student who will remain in the US should not need foreign langauges, etc.

In my opinion, education is always valuable. My kids receive a high school education that prepares them for any college major. My DS will take calculus in high school even though he won't need it as an athlete. The things they will learn in college will remain with them forever, nobody can take that away - whether they end up using it in their careers or not. My DD is working on a double major in literature and Physics; so it is likely that half of her college education will not directly apply to whatever job she ends up having

 

I see education as a value in and of itself, not as merely a means to an end. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

No.....we are saying financially we can definitely afford that.  They can go elsewhere, but they MAY have to cover the difference in that case.

 

But overall, our local 4 year school offers a lot, including engineering, which is of interest to him.  BUT, it isn't the flagship school.  If he were to get into our flagship school for engineering we would try to figure out how to help him more.

 

Oh wait, just re-read your question.......so are you asking what I would do if my child wants training that is offered elsewhere, besides a college?  Can you give an example?

 

My oldest is currently at the CC and will do a trade/tech program.  I am fine with that and will pay for it.

 

Yes - what I am interested in is the expectation that some parents have that all their kids, so long as they could do the work, will get a university degree.  Even if they know, for sure, that they want to be a welder or computer animator or vet tech or something else.

 

Most seem to have said they value that degree as pure education.  Well, I think that is great, though I also think a lot of kids who are not drawn to university aren't necessarily best suited to that form of academic education, and it can be better in that case to wait until it speaks to them.  But whatever.  In that case, the child will still need to get his career training after finishing the degree.

 

So I wonder a lot of things- are those parents just in a financial position to do both?  Do they feel those other goals of the child are just not as good?  Do they assume their kids will be the sort who are most interested in university type work?  If they can afford to support both, why do they care what order they happen in?

 

When I was in high school, all academic track kids were directed toward university.  It didn't really matter if they were brilliant in some other direction, or had other interests.  There were a lot of kids that were less happy than they might have been because of that, and so I tend to think it is a flawed assumption.

[hornblower]

Most trade certificate/diplomas are only 12-24 months & so they're easier to do later in life. 

And IMO there's potentially a large difference in the career trajectory of someone who has a BA in Philosophy or Women's Studies or anything at all..... who then becomes a welder or an electrician or a plumber, than in someone who doesn't get that degree first. 

And even though a large part of the education is in my mind not related to having a job at all but rather about getting the education, having a university degree is consistently associated with higher earning capacity. 


 

[Bluegoat]

How is it more difficult to do so after having the college degree than without having the college degree?

As I wrote, I was not talking about a student who has a clear vision of an alternate route of education, which I would happy to oblige.

If anything, it would be easier to change course already having the college coursework for a BA than starting completely from scratch at a later age.

 

 

I am greatly puzzled by this view point.  By the same token, a high school student interested in literature who does not envision herself in a scientific career should not need a math education beyond prealgebra; a student who will remain in the US should not need foreign langauges, etc.

In my opinion, education is always valuable. My kids receive a high school education that prepares them for any college major. My DS will take calculus in high school even though he won't need it as an athlete.

I see education as a value in and of itself, not as merely a means to an end. 

 

 

Yes, but the OP was about expectations for all kids, whether they have specific ideas or not.  Posters saying they expect all their kids to get a degree did not say, only ones that have no other plan, or even those that will be interested.

 

Going to other training after a degree is harder than just doing the original training, if you have less money, or more responsibilities.  And frankly, technical skills learned later will be perfected later, and you will start earning later.  If you spend X number of dollars learning a trade, you start earning an income in good time, and it is a good income.  Unless you are also carrying $40,000 of debt from a degree.

 

The education in itself thing is a two edged sword.  You could by the same token simply remain a student permanently, arguably that is really what an academic is, someone whos life calling is to study in a articular kind of way.  Most people at some point will have to make a decision to end that part of their formal education, and will begin to work in other types of areas, or prepare for that work.  Generally high school should is a logical place for that to happen, as education funding beyond that has limits, the desire for things like marriage and kids becomes more to the fore, and it also becomes more pressing to begin to prepare for other major financial outlays like a mortgage or pension.  All of which will impinge on formal education just for the sake of it and make earning more important.

[DawnM]

Yes - what I am interested in is the expectation that some parents have that all their kids, so long as they could do the work, will get a university degree.  Even if they know, for sure, that they want to be a welder or computer animator or vet tech or something else.

 

Most seem to have said they value that degree as pure education.  Well, I think that is great, though I also think a lot of kids who are not drawn to university aren't necessarily best suited to that form of academic education, and it can be better in that case to wait until it speaks to them.  But whatever.  In that case, the child will still need to get his career training after finishing the degree.

 

So I wonder a lot of things- are those parents just in a financial position to do both?  Do they feel those other goals of the child are just not as good?  Do they assume their kids will be the sort who are most interested in university type work?  If they can afford to support both, why do they care what order they happen in?

 

When I was in high school, all academic track kids were directed toward university.  It didn't really matter if they were brilliant in some other direction, or had other interests.  There were a lot of kids that were less happy than they might have been because of that, and so I tend to think it is a flawed assumption.

 

I am not making my kids go.  I certainly am strongly encouraging it.

 

I see far more regret in the "I should have gone" arena than in the "I wish I had never gone" one.  Aside from SAHMs, I don't see those who have to be breadwinners regretting the years they went to college, even if they feel it wasn't entirely necessary.

 

When you say a lot of kids are less happy......what do you mean?  What statistics can show that?  I haven't met them. I can't say they don't exist, they just aren't in my world, other than some SAHMs who say they aren't using it and have no plans to ever work.....but even they don't regret getting it.  And they may be in a position where they will need it someday.  Anything could happen.

[Bluegoat]

Most trade certificate/diplomas are only 12-24 months & so they're easier to do later in life. 

 

And IMO there's potentially a large difference in the career trajectory of someone who has a BA in Philosophy or Women's Studies or anything at all..... who then becomes a welder or an electrician or a plumber, than in someone who doesn't get that degree first. 

And even though a large part of the education is in my mind not related to having a job at all but rather about getting the education, having a university degree is consistently associated with higher earning capacity. 

 

 

 

 

So, are you saying the kid who knows he wants to work with his hands should get the degree first just in case, later in life, he might want it? 

 

The higher earning capacity thing IMO is not nearly as significant individually as it is statistically.  No one is a statistical being, we all exist under particular conditions.

[regentrude]

The education in itself thing is a two edged sword.  You could by the same token simply remain a student permanently, arguably that is really what an academic is, someone whos life calling is to study in a articular kind of way.  Most people at some point will have to make a decision to end that part of their formal education, and will begin to work in other types of areas, or prepare for that work. 

I would love to be a perpetual student, LOL.

 

 

 

 

 Generally high school should is a logical place for that to happen, as education funding beyond that has limits, the desire for things like marriage and kids becomes more to the fore, and it also becomes more pressing to begin to prepare for other major financial outlays like a mortgage or pension.  All of which will impinge on formal education just for the sake of it and make earning more important.

 

 

I guess my personal time table is not quite as tight. I don't think one needs to work towards mortgage, family and pension at age 18, mid-twenties is just fine. This view may be colored by the fact that all members of my family have graduate degrees, and that a PhD at age 26 left me plenty of time for those other things.

[hornblower]

So, are you saying the kid who knows he wants to work with his hands should get the degree first just in case, later in life, he might want it? 

 

The higher earning capacity thing IMO is not nearly as significant individually as it is statistically.  No one is a statistical being, we all exist under particular conditions.

 

If a kid was really adamant they wanted to go straight to a trade, I eventually would support them but not until we had many long conversations about the various options.  It's def. not my first choice for my kids. 

 

If you're capable of doing the academic work & can get the degree without taking on insane debt, then I think the degree is the safest choice. Then do the trade. 

 

 

Remember when many kids were dropping out and working at the mill or fisheries or the mines? Just like at some point getting a high school diploma became a necessity, I think a bachelor's has become a baseline for advancement, esp mid career.  It's come up several times on this board - mid career dh's who cannot advance because they don't have that degree. 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I am not making my kids go.  I certainly am strongly encouraging it.

 

I see far more regret in the "I should have gone" arena than in the "I wish I had never gone" one.  Aside from SAHMs, I don't see those who have to be breadwinners regretting the years they went to college, even if they feel it wasn't entirely necessary.

 

When you say a lot of kids are less happy......what do you mean?  What statistics can show that?  I haven't met them. I can't say they don't exist, they just aren't in my world, other than some SAHMs who say they aren't using it and have no plans to ever work.....but even they don't regret getting it.  And they may be in a position where they will need it someday.  Anything could happen.

 

I wouldn't tend to count SAHM as the people I know who wished they had dome things differently, for the most part.  Most that I know feel they are actually using their degrees in one way or another.  The ones that feel differently seem to have trained for a very specific career that isn't so easily compatible with being a mother. 

 

I know people who would have liked to have gone to university, but couldn't.  Either financially or because their life was messy, or in a few cases they were discouraged by family or their immediate community.  But far fewer who just didn't want to go, and chose not to, and then wished they had gone before. I think because really, there was so much class pressure to do it, that would be a hard decision to make in the first place to not go.  I also know some (my uncle is an example) who chose not to go out of high school, and did later as an adult, but felt that he would have frittered it away as a young person.  Or some (the president of my college) who felt that what they did first was valuable in itself.

 

I don't know what kind of statistics there are, or even could be, about people who regret degrees or any career avenues,  it would be hard to make a guess unless they actually asked the question directly.  Otherwise things like actually being able to find work would be complications in interpreting what was going on. So I really only have people I've talked to. 

 

Generally, what happened is this - they had no specific idea what they wanted to do, but were good students, so they went and got a BA.  Then they ended up in a career that they would not have chosen if they had thought about it more, and when they look back they see that a whole different approach would have made them happier.  Maybe they now realize - actually, I would much rather work outside, or in a job where I can live outside of a big city, or something else.  Or alternately, they have a lot of debt from the degree, but because they had little direction, it is not a remunerative degree.  And that in itself may mean they can't explore other things.  Or, there are people who go, and don't finish, and are in debt, which might be the worst case scenario. (My sister was in this situation, for a while the debt was a real issue for her because she had no qualification, even when she was making a good salary it was a bit bitter to be paying for it.)

 

To me, the right fit for career, and therefor for organizing education with whatever limits you have, depends on looking very carefully at the person as an individual  I think having very specific expectations is just likely to get in the way of seeing that.

[Arcadia]

.When I was in high school, all academic track kids were directed toward university. It didn't really matter if they were brilliant in some other direction, or had other interests.

I have many friends who are brilliant in some other direction but it is their unversity degree that got them a full time job. Their passion paid for luxuries if and when they get a freelance job. My friends from wealthy families were the ones who could choose to do anything since parents can let them stay home and have irregular income. My cousin employed his daughter when she was jobless.

 

My uncle is a chef. There were times he was in between jobs. His ex-wife and current wife works. It would be hard to depend on his income. He is an undischarged bankrupt.

 

With very little manufacturing jobs (mostly automated) and no agricultural jobs where I grew up, it would be hard to get any job without a degree. My brother had an associates and was layoff from manufacturing, completed a part time BEng and was able to get a more stable job as an engineer.

 

ETA:

There are much less slots for mature students and transfer students at my alma mater, more chance of getting in as a fresh high school grad.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Arcadia

[Bluegoat]

I would love to be a perpetual student, LOL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess my personal time table is not quite as tight. I don't think one needs to work towards mortgage, family and pension at age 18, mid-twenties is just fine. This view may be colored by the fact that all members of my family have graduate degrees, and that a PhD at age 26 left me plenty of time for those other things.

 

It really will depend though, not just time, but how much debt they have.  A bricklayer can make a good living for a family, especially if he starts working at 20 and is making a fully qualified salary at 26, and has a relativly low or no debt. 

 

As a Canadian with reasonable tuition fees, I had friends who came out with $40,000 of debt at 21 or 22.  So, add another two years for trade school, and then they are making a journeyman's salary with a loan payment at 26, when things like marriage and kids may come into the picture, and people want to start saving for a down payment.  So that will get pushed off, and possibly pensions too, since it's quite possible he'll be self employed and that money should be going to pensions, or maybe saving for his own kids education.  And then also consider that while academics can work well into their 70s, people in more physical jobs are much more likely to be ready to retire at 65, or even slightly earlier.

  Ideally, they will want to have the pension full and mortgage gone by 60, so as to have a little breathing room.

 

So if we are saying - get a degree, just for the education, depending on the circumstances even if it is possible, it can have a significant impact on later life circumstances. If we are really talking about the desire or true literacy as the reason for the degree, and not some ideas about labour having less dignity, it is quite possible to be truly literate outside the university.  I think, because it's become less common in the last generations, we forget how possible it is, and how it can be done.

[regentrude]

Generally, what happened is this - they had no specific idea what they wanted to do, but were good students, so they went and got a BA.  Then they ended up in a career that they would not have chosen if they had thought about it more, and when they look back they see that a whole different approach would have made them happier.  

 

How is the bolded the fault of having earned a college degree? They might have chosen a career without thinking much about it right out of high school, which I find a lot more likely since the options are so much more limited with just a high school degree.

Looking back and seeing different ways seems to me a default feature of the human condition; I fail to see how having gone to college would make this worse.

 

Maybe they now realize - actually, I would much rather work outside, or in a job where I can live outside of a big city, or something else.  

 

And if they later realize that they want to do things differently, they can still change course -what you do in your twenties does no longer define what you do for the rest of your life. I live on a different continent than I did when I was in college and work in a job I never even envisioned I would do, and even love.

And some things they may not be possible to change. But they would not have been able to change this if they had gone and gotten that welding certification - they may equally well discover at 35 that this is not what they want to spend their life doing either.

 

  Or, there are people who go, and don't finish, and are in debt, which might be the worst case scenario.

 

I agree: dropping out of college with debt is the worst case scenario. So, if I instill anything in my kids it is: finish what you start. Even if you change your mind halfway through. Knock out the degree and then change plans.

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

I have many friends who are brilliant in some other direction but it is their unversity degree that got them a full time job. Their passion paid for luxuries if and when they get a freelance job. My friends from wealthy families were the ones who could choose to do anything since parents can let them stay home and have irregular income. My cousin employed his daughter when she was jobless.

 

My uncle is a chef. There were times he was in between jobs. His ex-wife and current wife works. It would be hard to depend on his income. He is an undischarged bankrupt.

 

With very little manufacturing jobs (mostly automated) and no agricultural jobs where I grew up, it would be hard to get any job without a degree. My brother had an associates and was layoff from manufacturing, completed a part time BEng and was able to get a more stable job as an engineer.

 

Manufacturing, to a large extent, has been an area where people with very little education of any kind could get work, so I am not sure it is comparable to anything except things like low-skill service jobs - where it differed was in paying high wages.  Agriculture is very regional and also so terribly managed in many places that it is unreliable (though actually important enough that we probably should encourage it) and similarly food service, like childcare, is notoriously underpaid for most.

 

However, that isn't something that is necessarily across the board.  Trades and technical education is not the same as university degree, but it can lead to stable jobs, in some cases more of them than some types of university degrees.  And that will really depend on where you live as well, so that is something people need to think about IMO - what jobs are available where I want to live.  Jobs from degrees have a tendency to be concentrated in cities, and some in big cities.

[regentrude]

  And that will really depend on where you live as well, so that is something people need to think about IMO - what jobs are available where I want to live.  Jobs from degrees have a tendency to be concentrated in cities, and some in big cities.

 

Which is a luxury very few people are able to afford. Manufacturing jobs have geographical limitations as well.

 

I think it is impossible to anticipate everything and prepare for all contingencies. Choosing an education based on where I think at 18 that I might want to live seems a very limiting approach - not only could my preferences change due to spouse, children, elderly parents, changes in life goals, but also economy and industries can shift. Heck, entire countries can go away! 

No, the bolded seems a very strange criterion for choosing an educational path.

 

ETA: Not in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined ending up where I did. 

2nd ETA: And I am sure the kids next door to my Grandma who knew at 16 they would stay in the town and work in the textile factory until retirement did not anticipate that the factory would ever close and the town die. They have far fewer options than I did with my university degree.

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[MinivanMom]

If a kid was really adamant they wanted to go straight to a trade, I eventually would support them but not until we had many long conversations about the various options.  It's def. not my first choice for my kids. 

 

If you're capable of doing the academic work & can get the degree without taking on insane debt, then I think the degree is the safest choice. Then do the trade. 

 

 

Remember when many kids were dropping out and working at the mill or fisheries or the mines? Just like at some point getting a high school diploma became a necessity, I think a bachelor's has become a baseline for advancement, esp mid career.  It's come up several times on this board - mid career dh's who cannot advance because they don't have that degree. 

 

Back in the 1940's my grandfather dropped out of high school and lied about his age to join the military. No one in his family had ever graduated from high school before, and he didn't think a high school degree was necessary. This was very common in that time period. He married my grandmother (with a 3rd grade education), got out of the military, and found a good job working for County Government with benefits and a pension. No high school degree was required.

 

As the years went by, the profile of men hired for my grandfather's job and similar jobs began to change. They started hiring men with high school diplomas even though the jobs didn't require a high school diploma. My grandfather thought this was ridiculous and grumbled about the nonsense of expecting men to have read literature and learned Algebra for a job that required nothing more than basic literacy.

 

My grandfather's boss was wiser. He was sure that high school diplomas would become the new baseline for jobs (versus literacy and basic arithmetic), and he tried to convince my grandfather that he should go back and finish high school. My grandfather resisted this advice at first, but as he began to see his own daughters graduating from high school and only able to get good secretary jobs because of those high school diplomas, he began to think that the world really was changing. So in the 60's he started attending night school and received his high school diploma.

 

A few years later (late 60's/early 70's?), the County Government where he had worked for so many years changed their hiring rules to require high school diplomas for all jobs. If my grandfather hadn't finished that degree, he would have lost his job and his pension. Up until his death, he always spoke about that boss and how grateful he was that he finally heeded his advice.

 

I know there's a lot of grumbling nowadays about requiring BA degrees for secretaries and other jobs that didn't used to require them. But the world is continuing to change. We can debate whether these changes are good or necessary, and we can debate whether there should be more financial support for college costs and the pros/cons of taking on college debt, but that doesn't change the fact that the world is changing. We are heading toward college degrees being the new baseline, and I want my children to be fully prepared for what the future may hold.

[Bluegoat]

How is the bolded the fault of having earned a college degree? They might have chosen a career without thinking much about it right out of high school, which I find a lot more likely since the options are so much more limited with just a high school degree.

Looking back and seeing different ways seems to me a default feature of the human condition; I fail to see how having gone to college would make this worse.

 

 

And if they later realize that they want to do things differently, they can still change course -what you do in your twenties does no longer define what you do for the rest of your life. I live on a different continent than I did when I was in college and work in a job I never even envisioned I would do, and even love.

And some things they may not be possible to change. But they would not have been able to change this if they had gone and gotten that welding certification - they may equally well discover at 35 that this is not what they want to spend their life doing either.

 

 

I agree: dropping out of college with debt is the worst case scenario. So, if I instill anything in my kids it is: finish what you start. Even if you change your mind halfway through. Knock out the degree and then change plans.

 

I am still talking in terms of the OP here.  I am not saying people should not go to university.  I am addressing the idea that people expect their kids to go, and a kind of assumption that smart kids will go to university and have the kinds of careers that will come out of that.

 

Some kids may not have any ideas until later, but it is possible to get a sense of the kind of things many people would enjoy.  Some kids if they had a sensitive counselor might realize - gee, working inside, or in an office, really sounds like something I would not enjoy.  I'd like something where I .... whatever.  That could open up a host of other possibilities.

 

Assuming that university is going to be the best approach for all smart kids, tends to stop the exploration of those other possibilities, and result in a profusion of cookie-cutter BAs.

 

If looking back is just an unfortunate default, that seems like it would also hold true for people who look back and wish they had gone to university.

[DawnM]

I wouldn't tend to count SAHM as the people I know who wished they had dome things differently, for the most part.  Most that I know feel they are actually using their degrees in one way or another.  The ones that feel differently seem to have trained for a very specific career that isn't so easily compatible with being a mother. 

 

I know people who would have liked to have gone to university, but couldn't.  Either financially or because their life was messy, or in a few cases they were discouraged by family or their immediate community.  But far fewer who just didn't want to go, and chose not to, and then wished they had gone before. I think because really, there was so much class pressure to do it, that would be a hard decision to make in the first place to not go.  I also know some (my uncle is an example) who chose not to go out of high school, and did later as an adult, but felt that he would have frittered it away as a young person.  Or some (the president of my college) who felt that what they did first was valuable in itself.

 

I don't know what kind of statistics there are, or even could be, about people who regret degrees or any career avenues,  it would be hard to make a guess unless they actually asked the question directly.  Otherwise things like actually being able to find work would be complications in interpreting what was going on. So I really only have people I've talked to. 

 

Generally, what happened is this - they had no specific idea what they wanted to do, but were good students, so they went and got a BA.  Then they ended up in a career that they would not have chosen if they had thought about it more, and when they look back they see that a whole different approach would have made them happier.  Maybe they now realize - actually, I would much rather work outside, or in a job where I can live outside of a big city, or something else.  Or alternately, they have a lot of debt from the degree, but because they had little direction, it is not a remunerative degree.  And that in itself may mean they can't explore other things.  Or, there are people who go, and don't finish, and are in debt, which might be the worst case scenario. (My sister was in this situation, for a while the debt was a real issue for her because she had no qualification, even when she was making a good salary it was a bit bitter to be paying for it.)

 

To me, the right fit for career, and therefor for organizing education with whatever limits you have, depends on looking very carefully at the person as an individual  I think having very specific expectations is just likely to get in the way of seeing that.

 

 

I think we just see this differently and you won't be convinced.  I actually place a high value on my kids getting degrees and will be encouraging them to that end.  If you or your kids don't want degrees, that is certainly your choice.

 

I think statistics DO tell  us something.

[Bluegoat]

Which is a luxury very few people are able to afford. Manufacturing jobs have geographical limitations as well.

 

I think it is impossible to anticipate everything and prepare for all contingencies. Choosing an education based on where I think at 18 that I might want to live seems a very limiting approach - not only could my preferences change due to spouse, children, elderly parents, changes in life goals, but also economy and industries can shift. Heck, entire countries can go away! 

No, the bolded seems a very strange criterion for choosing an educational path.

 

ETA: Not in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined ending up where I did. 

2nd ETA: And I am sure the kids next door to my Grandma who knew at 16 they would stay in the town and work in the textile factory until retirement did not anticipate that the factory would ever close and the town die. They have far fewer options than I did with my university degree.

 

Why do you think people have less idea where they might like to live, than what they might want to do?  In reality, I would say far more people end up in jobs constrained by where they are than anything else.  Probably one of the number one thing that cases people trouble in finding work in the area they are trained in is wanting or needing to stay near extended family, or the work of a spouse. 

 

As well, there are many people who have an idea, if not of a specific place, of a specific kind of place.  Someone who does not want to live in a big city probably shouldn't go into high finance.  If you want a rural life, or to avoid a commuter life, that has implications for careers.  And lifestyle is closely related in other ways too - some people may want a job that is movable, or can be done part time, or where they are really finished at the end of the day.  Some people might like jobs that mean time away from home, while others want a family life that doesn't include that.  If you are sure you don't want to move around, maybe avoid being an academic, or an actor.

 

All of these kinds of things for a lot of people may be more important than doing one specific type of work.

 

There probably isn't any point in hoping to make plans in the face of natural disasters, revolutions, or catastrophic personal circumstances, those things are impossible to predict or plan for bynature, that is just life.

[terrikuns]

Count us in with families who expect our children to get a 4yr college degree as a minimum. It's the norm in our social circles. If they didn't, they'd be the first people in their family going back several generations, and the vast majority of their family members have advanced degrees. I'm hard pressed to think of anyone I know socially without a bachelor's degree. Right or wrong, college is seen as both a rite of passage and a necessary next step towards a professional career.

I don't think major is very important. My sister majored in English lit and is now an attorney; I majored in history and classics and am an MD; my brother barely graduated a very regional college with a degree in sociology and makes more than either of us working in business. He plans to get his MBA soon.

I don't think it's a burden to intellectually-capable children to expect them to go to college and to support that endeavor financially as best you can, regardless of how clear their future direction may be. My oldest is only 6, but the kids have already toured my husband's alma mater twice to see his name on a plaque in some hallway, his favorite library carrel, the lake, etc. We were passing by Charlottesville recently and stopped for lunch and to walk around UVA, which is beautiful and historic, but the kids are also interested in student life and how they pick their classes, etc. - and the 4.5yo decided he wants to go to a smaller school with less walking :) College is just a normal idea for them, as it was for their parents, aunts, uncles, and most of their peer group. My 6yo was grumbling about screen time restrictions the other day- "first there's school, then college, then graduate school ..." They've heard a lot about my beloved grandfather, who shoveled coal for a living until he used the GI Bill to get his electrician's certificate, and then he sent all 5 of his kids to college (and 3 or 4 of them have graduate degrees). My dad paid that debt forward by sending us to college, and we'll do the same and send our kids. We think college is worth it on its own terms, for both the academic and the social experiences.

[Prairie~Phlox]

You can get all the education that you want, but you can also have a great personality & be in the right place at the right time & work your way up in some cases. My good friend with only a high school diploma & not even any computer skills has been working as a cashier seasonally for a college bookstore & was just offered a HR position that people go to school for years to learn, but they would rather hire with in. I've known others who have the right personality & have done well without a lot of education. It really depends on the person. My niece just spent 4 years at an out of state school & now can't find a job.

[creekland]

I think what Bluegoat is asking is 

 

what happens if you pay for a 4 year degree like a BA in history or English or Psychology  and at the end your child has no job, no career & now wants to be take a trade / vocational certificate / diploma to actually get work.  Would the family pay for that too. 

 

The answer for our family is yes. 

 

It's yes for our family too.  Youngest might head toward ministry.  He has lots of varying thoughts yet (and we're ok with that).  If he wants to get some sort of ministry degree after finishing college, then it's no different than our helping out middle son with med school after college.  We were talking earlier today (at lunch) about the value of college - even the value of attending a secular school - if he wants to head into ministry and he agrees 100% that it's worth it.

 

And from a previous question about a forestry lover (not your question)?  There are colleges that have forestry (and similar - Environmental Science, etc) majors.  Many farmers around here are now sending their kids to school even if they want to take over the family farm?  Why?  There's a bit that has changed in farming methods/thoughts over the years.  They see value in the younger generation gaining that knowledge.

[FaithManor]

 

 

And from a previous question about a forestry lover (not your question)?  There are colleges that have forestry (and similar - Environmental Science, etc) majors.  Many farmers around here are now sending their kids to school even if they want to take over the family farm?  Why?  There's a bit that has changed in farming methods/thoughts over the years.  They see value in the younger generation gaining that knowledge.

For those in the Midwest or Great Lakes Region, Michigan Technological University has a forestry degree, an amazing forestry degree and research forest. DNR positions, as officers retire, now require a forestry, natural resource management, ecology, or environmental science degree. The newbies simply can't learn everything that these guys that have been on the job for years know while "on the job". It costs the state too much to train them for that long without them being able to do the management work so they want that BS degree.

 

MTU does give out 10-12 full ride scholarships and 20 half rides to out of state residents and also has a pool of smaller scholarships as well. They do allow stacking as well. So while OOS tuition looks rough on paper, for the student who can land the merit money, it is very affordable.

 

The local farmers hire, for minimum wage, farm hands. However for their farm management, foremen, livestock management positions, they like at least two years at Michigan State in Agricultural or Animal Science. We don't have all that many of the small family farms left. Many have consolidated into rather large operations so the hiring practices are different from what they used to be. Without Ag or animal science coursework, it is difficult to make more than minimum wage.

[DawnM]

I think what Bluegoat is asking is 

 

what happens if you pay for a 4 year degree like a BA in history or English or Psychology  and at the end your child has no job, no career & now wants to be take a trade / vocational certificate / diploma to actually get work.  Would the family pay for that too. 

 

The answer for our family is yes. 

 

Yes for us as well.

[Jane in NC]

You can get all the education that you want, but you can also have a great personality & be in the right place at the right time & work your way up in some cases. My good friend with only a high school diploma & not even any computer skills has been working as a cashier seasonally for a college bookstore & was just offered a HR position that people go to school for years to learn, but they would rather hire with in. I've known others who have the right personality & have done well without a lot of education. It really depends on the person. My niece just spent 4 years at an out of state school & now can't find a job.

 

I won't dispute this but how long did it take your friend to move into her HR position?  My friend's daughter who is in HR for a small manufacturing firm got the job after finishing her four year degree in psychology because of a college internship connection.  My nephew who is the head of HR for a school district would not be in the position without a graduate degree and connections made as a teacher.  Does a degree jumpstart a career?  I think it might.

 

We did not choose our son's college major for him.  I know people in real life and through these boards who feel that parents should direct their kids to what the parents see as a viable major or career.

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that people say that a degree in my son's field (archaeology) is useless, that graduates cannot find a job or a job that pays.  Immediately upon graduation, my son left for an admittedly low paying summer job in Britain.  He was home all of five days and left for a good paying job in another part of the country.  After a year and a half of saving all of his salary (his company paid for transportation, his hotel, and gave him $40 a day for meals--he lived off his per diem), my son took a break from his job to hike the Appalachian Trail.  He still has a sizeable cash cushion--and a 401-K.

 

I am glad that neither he nor we listened to the naysayers who said that archaeology is a hobby and not a career. We recognized that it is his passion. People who are passionate about a subject area will usually figure out a way to make a living incorporating it in some way into their lives.

 

College may not be the answer for everyone, but college certainly can make the path a little easier not only because of the piece of paper but because of connections made. 

 

Having said that, my son is appalled at peers who did not join the societies related to their majors, who did not have internships or in his case field schools, who did not volunteer at school events to make connections.  Jobs don't just land at students' feet.  Some college students do not seem to understand that they must sell themselves to a potential employer.

 

My husband (corporate guy) formerly sat on a board at the nearby regional university.  This gave him the opportunity to hear senior presentations and collect CVs.  Yikes.  The level of engagement within the discipline astounded me.

 

A college degree does not guarantee employment but I believe it give an advantage to those willing to show initiative.  Perhaps the non-degree holder demonstrating the same initiative can also excel. Maybe that is the bottom line.

 

But I don't view education as a waste. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Jane in NC

[Prairie~Phlox]

I won't dispute this but how long did it take your friend to move into her HR position? My friend's daughter who is in HR for a small manufacturing firm got the job after finishing her four year degree in psychology because of a college internship connection. My nephew who is the head of HR for a school district would not be in the position without a graduate degree and connections made as a teacher. Does a degree jumpstart a career? I think it might.

 

We did not choose our son's college major for him. I know people in real life and through these boards who feel that parents should direct their kids to what the parents see as a viable major or career.

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that people say that a degree in my son's field (archaeology) is useless, that graduates cannot find a job or a job that pays. Immediately upon graduation, my son left for an admittedly low paying summer job in Britain. He was home all of five days and left for a good paying job in another part of the country. After a year and a half of saving all of his salary (his company payed for transportation, his hotel, and gave him $40 a day for meals--he lived off his per diem), my son took a break from his job to hike the Appalachian Trail. He still has a sizeable cash cushion--and a 401-K.

 

I am glad that neither he nor we listened to the naysayers who said that archaeology is a hobby and not a career. We recognized that it is his passion. People who are passionate about a subject area will usually figure out a way to make a living incorporating it in some way into their lives.

 

College may not be the answer for everyone, but college certainly can make the path a little easier not only because of the piece of paper but because of connections made.

 

Having said that, my son is appalled at peers who did not join the societies related to their majors, who did not have internships or in his case field schools, who did not volunteer at school events to make connections. Jobs don't just land at students' feet. Some college students do not seem to understand that they must sell themselves to a potential employer.

 

My husband (corporate guy) formerly sat on a board at the nearby regional university. This gave him the opportunity to hear senior presentations and collect CVs. Yikes. The level of engagement within the discipline astounded me.

 

A college degree does not guarantee employment but I believe it give an advantage to those willing to show initiative. Perhaps the non-degree holder demonstrating the same initiative can also excel. Maybe that is the bottom line.

 

But I don't view education as a waste.

Well my friend only worked seasonally so she could be a SAHM, but her youngest is a senior in public school & she just started talking about going to work full time, but has no experience in anything, so she was at the right place at the right time, it doesn't always work out that way.

[Jane in NC]

Well my friend only worked seasonally so she could be a SAHM, but her youngest is a senior in public school & she just started talking about going to work full time, but has no experience in anything, so she was at the right place at the right time, it doesn't always work out that way.

 

I for one am happy for your friend!  So many SAHMs have great organizational skills but may not have documented work experience.  I think it is great that someone recognized your friend's skills for what they are.

 

[73349]

Why do you think people have less idea where they might like to live, than what they might want to do?  In reality, I would say far more people end up in jobs constrained by where they are than anything else.  Probably one of the number one thing that cases people trouble in finding work in the area they are trained in is wanting or needing to stay near extended family, or the work of a spouse. 

 

It's the opposite for us, as where we live was decided by the kind of work DH does--pretty much unavailable in the area where we went to high school (not that I liked it a whole lot anyway).

 

 

Re: the OP, I assume it's my responsibility to help DS prepare for college, expecting that he will want or need to go, but if he had something else he wanted to do, that's fine.

 

I loved college. The expectation that I would go was not based on my family's class (my parents do not have bachelor's degrees and could not pay for mine), but my academic ability. I needed my degree for the job I did until becoming a SAHM at 30, but I also just... needed that much education.

 

I was sometimes disappointed that many fellow students were not into it, though of course it wasn't as bad as high school. Does making a BA/BS a new baseline for employability flood universities with unmotivated youth? Maybe. IDK whose responsibility that is, though.

[creekland]

I value practicality and teach it to my kids. So to me the idea of encouraging school even if there is no plan for the degree ahead of time, fails my CBA test.

 

And, the last thing I wanted to mention is a quote i really like and strive for... "a failure to plan is a plan to fail." ( ok thats a paraphrase, you get the idea.)

 

I'm a very practical person as well.  We have very few (if any) useless things around and I certainly don't purposely buy any.

 

But the reality in the real world is many kids don't know what they want to do in life by 18.  It's a tough decision and they just don't know.  Forcing them to know usually causes oodles of stress.  I get that in school all the time because kids are usually pretty willing to talk with teachers they like about it (or any other home issue causing stress).  I don't think that stress is good for them TBH.

 

Getting them to think about their future is good, but wanting them to know exactly what they want to do for the next 4 decades?  That's daunting.  Then add in the fact that they truly don't realize all the opportunities and options out there.

 

My advice for the college capable in this situation is always the same.  Figure out some sort of major field you like (can be very broad - eliminate what you don't like) and just start that direction.  Once in college, keep your eyes open.  If you see something that intrigues you - in classes, life, or from any source - contemplate it and don't be afraid to change directions.  Most will find something if they put some effort into it AND have people skills (the biggest barrier to getting jobs regardless of educational level).  There really aren't that many unemployed college grads - definitely fewer than unemployed high school grads.

 

I also caution about debt, but at the same time I caution about going to just "any" school.  Make sure grads are doing the types of jobs they think they might be interested in.  Some colleges/majors aren't really worth paying for a degree from.  It can be better to have some debt and a respected degree than to have no debt from a college employers yawn at.  This isn't a "Top 50 or Bust" talk.  It's a reality talk to have them asking questions about where recent grads have gone and what they are doing from X school.  Very few students from my school go to Top 50 schools and that's ok.  Only one of my three is in one, but all three will be successful.

 

Oh... then I suggest they figure out "a" plan in the direction they're thinking of starting and tell their parents that even though they (the student) knows it's not written in stone in reality.  It takes the worry off the parents making for a win-win.  Parents can generally be brought on board when a real plan is set - esp if/when they see the light in their kids eyes.  Their main issue at the beginning is concern over the unknown future and wanting the best for their kid.  Who can blame them?

 

Fortunately, I got to see this work out plenty of times prior to my own kids heading off so they were given the same advice.  It reduced a ton of stress in their lives.  We even kept reminding pre-med boy (who knew his destination from the age of 8) that he didn't have to go that direction if he wanted to change his mind.  I reminded him of that again this month - right before he submitted his med school apps.

 

FWIW, I also don't try to tell all students at school that they need to go to college.  College isn't for everyone, but for capable students it's never a waste.  I've encouraged everything from the military to tattoo parlor jobs (and plenty of other options) for the non-college bound.  There's a niche out there for everyone.

 

There are folks in my inner circle of friends who don't have college degrees.  I don't think less of them as people.  But for my (perfectly capable) kids?  They were raised knowing they were going to college when they finished high school.  No regrets.

[FairProspects]

It's yes for our family too.  Youngest might head toward ministry.  He has lots of varying thoughts yet (and we're ok with that).  If he wants to get some sort of ministry degree after finishing college, then it's no different than our helping out middle son with med school after college.  We were talking earlier today (at lunch) about the value of college - even the value of attending a secular school - if he wants to head into ministry and he agrees 100% that it's worth it.

 

And from a previous question about a forestry lover (not your question)?  There are colleges that have forestry (and similar - Environmental Science, etc) majors.  Many farmers around here are now sending their kids to school even if they want to take over the family farm?  Why?  There's a bit that has changed in farming methods/thoughts over the years.  They see value in the younger generation gaining that knowledge.

 

We actually lived this. Dh wanted to drop out of university after his freshman year to go into ministry and missions work. His parents convinced him to finish his BA and told him they would support any future plans after that despite being non-religious. I will forever be grateful to them for their stance. By the time Dh finished college his desires and passions had changed and he was well positioned to move forward into grad school which ultimately has led him into more ministries than he ever could have imagined possible at 19.

[DawnM]

I do want to say, I DO believe that education for education sake DOES have value. I believe the value of education increases exponentially when is is used as tool to get to a goal rather than as a goal in itself.

 

I also dont believe education is ever a waste. However i do believe that the time, effort and yes, money expended get that education can be wasted.

 

And just generally, I am an extremely practical person. I always want to know what I am going to get out of doing X, or buying Y, etc. I am always running the CBA (cost benefit analysis.) I value practicality and teach it to my kids. So to me the idea of encouraging school even if there is no plan for the degree ahead of time, fails my CBA test.

 

And, the last thing I wanted to mention is a quote i really like and strive for... "a failure to plan is a plan to fail." ( ok thats a paraphrase, you get the idea.)

 

I can see that to some degree.  (haha did you like that pun?)

 

I can understand not paying $69K to USC for a drama degree.