Woes of Rod & Staff English for grades 7 and 8

[Janie]

I love Rod & Staff English. I think it is comprehensive with an adequate amount of practice exercises to develop excellent grammar knowledge and usage in students.

 

This year we dropped Abeka in our school's curriculum and adopted Rod & Staff for grades 3-8. I teach grades 6, 7, and 8. The sixth graders are doing well with it, but the other two grades I teach are just barely getting by. Btw, we have upped the ante in our curriculum this year. The school used to be an honest-to-goodness college prep school, but over the last decade, it has become almost insipid. We are turning that around.

 

Of the three grades, the sixth grade is the one I can better "grow" into the series, filling in the gaps of new students. Of the eighteen seventh graders I have, a number of these are new students with little to no grammar background. (One day I will write about how homeschooling is a bad word in private and public education. I was affronted by that practice of labeling last year, but it didn't take long to understand it. Most homeschoolers who end up in traditional schooling have been very poorly taught--many times, not taught--and so we cring when we hear that a new student was homeschooled. We expect to remediate.)

 

Anyway, these seventh graders are also lazy with a capital L. They are used to being spoonfed and their minds are as soft as an overcooked noodle. No kidding--I can actually gave the students a study guide for a test with the exact information from the test, just arranged differently, and many of them can still fail the test. The eighth graders are not as bad, but a different struggle exists.

 

Anyway, I have spent the last three weeks struggling through chapter one and the first three lessons of chapter two of R & S 7 with them. I just don't know how to explain or get them to understand the differences between predicate adjectives / nominatives and direct objects / indirect objects any more than I've done.

 

I use the publisher-produced curriculum tests because I do not have time to develop my own, and I think these tests are very thorough. If you are familiar with these, they always start with definition of terms (excellent and necessary, imo!). These matching questions are not easy-peesy because they are often worded in a way that causes the student to have to think and figure out---something that (most of) these students just plain don't know how to do.

 

For the chapter one test, many students did very poorly. So, the day after that test, I made copies of the exact same test, told them to clear their desk, get their grammar book out, and passed out the test. I told them they had 45 minutes to finish. I did not tell them what I was going to do with the tests, but many assumed I was giving an open book test. Fine with me; I wanted them to dig into the book and get the info for themselves. I graded these which were a little better than the first, but still not great. The next day, I used transparancies of the test to work out the test with them giving thorough explanations and told them to take notes. Then I told them that the next day they would have the final test on chapter one. I typed up a new test, same info but arranged differently and with new sentences. Of the seventeen students, eight got in the 90s and 100, while nine got in the 60s and below. I do have some parents becoming concerned. The new students fall into this failing group. Of course, they have come into the class with little-to-no prior knowledge. Even the ones from the public school say that they only have a little grammar in the sixth grade and only subjects and verbs at that. They have no idea what a predicate is, so teaching about predicate adjectives and nominatives is like Greek to them.

 

So, I decided to test in smaller chunks in chapter two, after three lessons. Before the last test, I reviewed the terms with the exact definitions on the board. Even so, nine students (the same nine) did not get but half of these correct. I was going to hand these back tomorrow. But I think I will put up the definitions (again, sigh) on the overhead, have them copy them down, work on some practice sentences (again) and retest these nine on Tuesday. I will take the better of the two grades.

 

BUT, I cannot continue to do this. At some point, these students are going to have to get their act together and act full responsibility for their study habits.

 

Any suggestions?

 

I do plan to continue to test every three lessons through the current chapter then give an end-of-chapter test at the end, taking that grade instead of the every-three-lesson tests. You know, you'd think that practice makes perfect and repetition is the mother of learning would eventually happen!

 

I'm beginning to get more than a little concerned if by the end of the nine weeks, these students fail grammar. I need to see improvement and I'm not sure of other ways to go about this.

 

If you use R&S, and particularly if you switched to it around the 6th grade, what are your experiences?

 

Any suggestions are much appreciated!

 

[Melissa in Australia]

I have no suggestions. I am still grappling with grammar. we are doing rod and staff 7 and I know that I would fail every test , so would my so would my son.

 

before I started homeschooling I didn't even know what a noun or verb was! I have learned now, but find verbals, relative pronouns and intransitive linking pronouns, are way beyond me.

 

and yes I spoon feed my grammar to my children . In fact I spoon feed nearly every subject to them. Except I don't call it spoon feeding I call it pushing , nagging, dragging them through their subjects.

[Peela]

Perhaps the mistake you have made is starting the older children on their grade level of R&S. Most people on these boards who ask what level to start their older children on in R&S are given the advice to start at levels 5 or 6, even if the students are 15. And many people do R&S a grade or two lower than grade level. So diving older students straight into 7 and 8, which are notorious for being very difficult even for grammar buffs, may be a recipe for failure. You students may not be as bad as you think :)

 

My son did R&S3 a few years back. We dropped it, and now, since I had it on the shelf, he has started R&S6- he is almost 13. He has done a lot of grammar in between, but even though he is full of confidence, he still gets plenty wrong. I have to help him every day, and he is only up to lesson 12 so its all review so far.

 

I expect to take 2 years to get through R&S6 with him, and the truth is if he doesn't do any more grammar that that, it is more than most kids get nowadays, and it's a very thorough foundation.

I would back up and have your older students all start on R&S6.

R&S repeats stuff each year, but by R&S7 or 8, if you are only learning the basics for the first time, you are going to be lost with the harder stuff. It's not the kids' fault.

[Stacy in NJ]

I think it would be a bit of a stretch for even adults with little or no grammar background to jump into Rod & Staff 7 & 8. While I admire your hard work in trying to get them up to grade level, at least R & S grade level, I think that you may be expecting too much. Keep in mind that most children that our using R & S 7/8 have had 6 or 7 prior years of grammar. Your asking children who have limited exposure to grammar to jump in at the same level. Honestly, I think you would be doing both them and you a favor if you backed up and started them at the 5th grade level.

 

Just my opinion.

[LisaNY]

Janie, I always recommend beginning in either R&S 5 or 6 for older students with a weak grammar background. Is there any way you can have your 7th gr. class switch to the gr. 6 text? R&S gr. 7 is a marked jump up from the gr. 6 text. I would even suggest that your 8th gr. class would do better w/the gr. 7 text.

 

I find R&S to be advanced, so jumping back to gr. 6 is really not a "jump back" at all. I ignore the number on the text. I'd be concerned about switching to R&S 7 & 8 with students that far behind in grammar skills.

 

If it is impossible for you to do that, what about using some of the teaching points and examples from the gr. 6 text with your 7th/8th gr. classes?

 

I don't think grammar is taught as a separate subject in the public schools. If it is, it is minimal. I spoke w/a few high school teachers, and they told me that grammar was not being taught in our district. My dd went to ps in 10th gr., and has taken Honor's English through gr. 12. Grammar as a discipline is barely even mentioned. I'm sure my dd could probably diagram circles around her teachers.

[Blue Hen]

I have no suggestions. I am still grappling with grammar. we are doing rod and staff 7 and I know that I would fail every test , so would my so would my son.

 

before I started homeschooling I didn't even know what a noun or verb was! I have learned now, but find verbals, relative pronouns and intransitive linking pronouns, are way beyond me.

 

and yes I spoon feed my grammar to my children . In fact I spoon feed nearly every subject to them. Except I don't call it spoon feeding I call it pushing , nagging, dragging them through their subjects.

 

I'm going through R&S grammar for the second time and finally it is starting to make sense to me. I failed grammar in grade school---some of my worst school memories are from those classes, teacher's embarrassing me in front of the class hoping I guess that such tactics would help me to learn the subject. It didn't. What it has taken though, to help me understand a DO from an IO from a PN is teaching grammar to someone else for 10 years. Oh my. So I too, spoon feed my youngest son. But this year in 7th grade R&S, for the first time since FLL he's GOT IT! Thrilling. He's diagramming without help, id'ing DO, IO, PN, and having a bit of fun at it too.

 

To Janie --- I would be doing awful in your class and so would my kids if they jumped in R&S 7 without the years and years of grammar. I would never start someone in R&S 7th grade level who had never had grammar before. We often recommend on here to start a child in R&S grammar at their grade level OR if they are higher than 6th grade then start in 6th grade.

 

The other suggestion is to really go basic, really basic, and they must understand the difference from a noun and a verb before you can pick out a PN, or DO, or IO. You need to know what helping verbs are... but spending all that time to help the kids understand the basics is going to throw the schedule out the window.

[anissarobert]

We started R & S with the 7th grade book. My dd is in 9th and just finishing it. This is hard stuff. I am learning it with her, but I often get confused, because I didn't learn grammar in school. I don't expect my son who is doing R & S 3 this year to struggle when he gets to 7, because it will have prepared him. His 3rd year book has him diagramming sentences!

 

I guess I would agree with the other posters, that level 7 is very hard to jump into. I only have 1 student to work with and we have had to go through it very slowly. We switched from Abeka and R & S is much more difficult. I am glad we are doing it, but I have problems grading it for high school because she works really hard and still scores high B's.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If you use R&S, and particularly if you switched to it around the 6th grade, what are your experiences?

 

Any suggestions are much appreciated!

 

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Janie, what we did, every day, was read aloud together the definitions in the gray box at the beginning of the chapter. (IIRC, they are at the beginning of the chapters. Eeek. It's been awhile.)

 

Every day, every single class practice question. Every day, every single individual question. Every single day, every review question.

 

In short, I followed the book exactly, and I did oral review (recitation/reading in chorus) every day at the beginning of the lesson. All new stuff was recited, all old stuff was periodically reviewed.

 

I have one grateful dd now. Like Wabash College says, it won't be easy. But it will be worth it.

 

I don't know if this helps. But more was better, and more meant higher effort and satisfaction. I don't know if you're assigning every exercise. But I would suggest you try it, even if it means reams of homework. The foundation dd has now is PRICELESS.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Hey, Janie! Nice to see you. Frankly, I think R&S is quite advanced, and I have kept my boys behind in the books by one grade. That likely doesn't help you, though! I'm sure you'll figure this out. Take care! Love, Camy

[Rhondabee]

We started R&S 6 after one year of ABeka (5th grade) - which was our first year hs'ing.

 

When we started hs'ing, ds didn't know what a noun or a verb was. He is now in 8th grade, and doing well with R&S 8th.

 

BUT - - I noticed a *HUGE* jump going from the 6th grade book to the 7th grade. (And, a big jump going from Abeka 5th to R&S 6th.) R&S-7 assumes mastery of Predicate Adjectives, Pred Nom, IO, etc. The "review" at the beginning of the book is not sufficient to bring a 7th grader to mastery - too many concepts are presented too quickly.

 

And, it seemed like there was never "breathing room" in R&S 7. What I mean is that there was rarely a "pure review" lesson where we could say, "OH, yeah, I remember doing this last year. Easy-peasy." There was *always* something new (and once you hit adjective and adverb clauses - Whoa! Watch out!)

 

Not sure what your answer is. I'm sure you can't re-order curriculum. If I had to make R&S-7 work in your situation, I would probably spread each lesson out over 3 (or 4) days. I would consider each lesson "point" as its own lesson - maybe you could do two points a day, but I wouldn't assume so. Probably you will have to stop and fill in the gaps as you go (oh, I have plenty of unpleasant memories of that - tho' with math!).

 

Speaking of math, though, the fact is that the kids will *have* to know the "basic facts" of grammar before going on to more advanced concepts. When I had to fill in gaps in math, sometimes I just had to leave the lesson, and teach on the fly what had to be learned before we could proceed. Other times, we just drilled and drilled and reviewed every day at a separate time from the lesson. I know it's not fun, and you have my deepest sympathy!

 

Hmmm...maybe Mary Daly's diagramming book would be a good supplement?

 

Blessings,

Rhonda

[Lolly]

yes, your mistake was with starting them in the grade level books according to grade level. Really just shouldn't be done with R&S.

 

Grammar is incremental. You learn a little and add to it each year. The sentences slowly become more and more complex. If you look at the topics covered in the books, you will think that the same things are being covered. BUT, the level at which they are being covered becomes progressively difficult. It would be similar to taking a child who is in 3rd grade and sticking them in a math book at a 5th grade level. The vast majority aren't going to do well. R&S 7 covered more grammar than your typical college graduate is ever going to have had in their lives.

 

For this year, can you just switch everyone over to R&S 6? In the future, when you get new students in your program, start them out in the 6th grade book. A new 6th grader may need to start in the 5th grade book.

[sandalwood]

For what it's worth, we also use Rod & Staff grammar a year behind.

[Tabrett]

WTM also states that students who don't have a good grammar background can use R&S this way:

 

9th grade- R&S 7

10th grade-R&S 8

11th grade-R&S 9

12th grade-R&S 10

 

If these books can be use as high school texts think how hard they are!!!! As a parent, I would rather you start with the 6th grade book with my 7th or 8th graders.

Do you really think your students are being lazy?????????

Come on!!! My dd work her but off in PS and makes C's. She is not LAZY! She works and works!!!

 

Lets give another example:

 

Pretend you played the recorder last year in 6th grade. You did well, but this year your teacher gave you a flute and expected you to play 7th grade music designed for students who started playing the flute in 5th grade. That would be 3 levels up from what you played last year. Could you do it? NO! But you played an instrument last year. You had some training. You can read music. Why can't you play 7th grade music? Just because you are in 7th grade doesn't mean you have enough knowledge to play an instrument at that level. And then you memorize the music to pass your tests. You worked hard on memorizing the music. You learned a lot. But instead of getting tested on the music you learned to play, your teacher gives you new music, using the same notes and rhythms that you learned in the music you studied, to be tested on. You fail and your "teacher" doesn't understand why.

 

Grammar is like math and music. It must be practiced over time, building level upon level. A few kids will naturally excel, only a few. That is why all students who played an instrument from 6-12th grades are not professionals.

 

OK, I'm over my vent. This is what you need to think about. Do you want your student to really learn grammar or just pass the 7th and 8th grade books? If you really, really, really want your students to learn, start with where they are and go as fast as they can. If they learn a lot of grammar this year and still don't pass the 7th and 8th grades books did they fail? Or did they learn? You are the teacher. Teach the students not the books.

You're not a bad teacher and they are not lazy. They are just not ready and you can't make a baby walk before it's time.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would drop the books until you cover the following basics on the board, with daily drills for maybe 2 weeks:

 

The 8 parts of speech and how to recognize them.

The uses of nouns (subject noun, direct object, indirect object, object of the preposition, possessive noun, predicate nominative, object complement noun, noun of direct address, appositive.) Also predicate adjectives.

The types and uses of verbs, including memorizing the linking and helping verbs.

Prepositions and prepositional phrases

How to diagram simple sentences including all of the above

Compound and complex sentences, including independent and dependent clauses.

 

I think that you could teach this to kids of this age pretty quickly, and that with that background they would be ready to tackle the speed and depth of Rod and Staff on grade level or possibly one year behind.

 

It doesn't do any good to drag them through the book if they are not learning or retaining the material.

[PollyOR]

It sounds like you have quite a bit of work ahead of you. :grouphug: I hope the school administrators are flexible.

 

Just for background. My dd did R&S 4&5, but when we tried to do R&S6 in 6th grade she could not wrap her mind around it. That was about the time that she started a major hormonal shift. She is now in 8th and has breezed through the first 15 lessons. I own R&S 7&8 and there is NO way I could do it.

 

Let us know how it works out. Good luck!

[Beth in SW WA]

 

I find R&S to be advanced, so jumping back to gr. 6 is really not a "jump back" at all. I ignore the number on the text.

 

My ds 8th & dd 6th are doing R & S 6 together. Don't worry about the number on the book.