Old Economy Steve

[pinkmint]

Has anyone seen this meme series? Do you agree with the criticisms of Old Economy Steve? 

 

There are probably a few Baby Boomers here, or at least some of us who remember an economy that was much different than today's. Even I remember in the early 2000's after having worked since 15 (in my early 20's) being taken aback when I applied for a low paying job at a coffee shop and was asked for a resume. 

 

I know there are people out there who agree with Old Economy Steve and think people these days are just a bunch of cry-babies who have it easy and don't make good choices. But a lot of this meme series strikes a chord for what me and DH are living. We are trying to raise a family on one income with the breadwinner having no college degree. It's been just as hard as it sounds. His base, full-time pay is a couple thousand dollars a year above the poverty line for our family size. He doesn't like working tons of overtime but he does it and it keeps us off food stamps for now. 

 

DH has every good quality someone could want in an enployee except that he's not super ambitious or adept at playing the complicated career game. I don't see that as a flaw but apparently the result for that is near poverty. 

 

I guess I just get weary of feeling like everything is our own fault (I know some things are) when there are other forces going on. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by pinkmint

[Zinnia]

My inlaws played the real estate game, and they played it well.  Every house that they ever owned went up in value, most fairly quickly.   They bought their last house in 2002, saw its value rise quickly, plummet just as quickly with the recession, and they now have recovered.  This is the first house in 60 years of marriage that has had the volatile ups and downs.  Every other house has had a steady rise.

We bought a house in 2005, at the peak.  We chose to short-sell in 2010.  Houses in our old neighborhood are still going for $50,000 less than we paid.  ELEVEN years ago.  I wonder if they will ever recover.  We made the right choice for us, but it devastated us financially.

 

My inlaws struggle with understanding this.  It took them 3-4 years to even believe us when we said that the values had fallen.  Just so far out of their reality.  It caused some tense conversations between my dh and his dad about financial responsibility over the last 6 years.

[pinkmint]

I've seen that too. The older generation often has these prosperity glasses on based on playing a game that was rigged in their favor and look at the current generation with disdain and smugness. It can be really frustrating. 

[vonfirmath]

My inlaws played the real estate game, and they played it well.  Every house that they ever owned went up in value, most fairly quickly.   They bought their last house in 2002, saw its value rise quickly, plummet just as quickly with the recession, and they now have recovered.  This is the first house in 60 years of marriage that has had the volatile ups and downs.  Every other house has had a steady rise.

We bought a house in 2005, at the peak.  We chose to short-sell in 2010.  Houses in our old neighborhood are still going for $50,000 less than we paid.  ELEVEN years ago.  I wonder if they will ever recover.  We made the right choice for us, but it devastated us financially.

 

My inlaws struggle with understanding this.  It took them 3-4 years to even believe us when we said that the values had fallen.  Just so far out of their reality.  It caused some tense conversations between my dh and his dad about financial responsibility over the last 6 years.

 

Some of this is based on where you live.

 

I know the house my parents bought in 1977 and paid on for 10 years, they couldn't even make enough to pay off the loan in 1986 so they ended up renting it out for a time before selling it.

 

Whereas the house we bought 4 years ago has gone up in value to 133% of the price we paid. (So some houses are definitely appreciating).  I'd prefer NOT because it affects property taxes and insurance as well!

Edited May 5, 2016 by vonfirmath

[LisaKinVA]

Living in the DC area, and understanding that real wages for the area have actually declined (in inflation-adjusted dollars), while housing costs have more than doubled keep my parents (70 year old, newly-retired boomers) firmly understanding the plight of their adult children.  They are floored at how anyone can afford to buy the housing that continues to rise around them.  Their own house (which is still down $100,000 from its peak value) is still worth more than twice what they paid for it, and it is paid off.  One of their favorite hobbies has been to go looking at the new homes.  They've noticed that the house prices keep going up, but the houses keep getting smaller.  If they were going to try to move into their area now, instead of the 3000 sf home on 3 acres (with a full walk-out basement), they would only be able to afford a 1300 sf townhome (mind you, this is a 45 minute commute from DC -- if you leave at 0500).  

 

I do know a few people who DID create their own mess with really bad decisions (taking out loans for school and spending money they had received to pay for school for fun -- or way over-spending above their means in general, because they felt entitled to luxuries), but they run the gammut from Gen X/Y to Boomers.  However, these people are not the majority of people I know.  I know people who have been stuck in their starter-townhouse for 15 years, others who are still riding out the bubble burst and are still underwater.  I also have friends I grew up with who are living incredibly well (in CA, even).  Their kids are attending top-shelf private schools, and they have very lucrative careers.  I also have relatives who are renting out rooms in their house to make ends meet.  

 

Thankfully, I've only had to read about the smugness...and have not had to experience it first hand (recently, anyhow - I did experience it about 12 years ago with my in-laws, but I was able to kabosh that by taking my MIL house hunting).

Edited May 5, 2016 by LisaK in VA is in IT

[kewb]

I am not a millenial and I find that series enraging.Old economy Steve is kind of an as@%hat,.  It is too easy to broadly tar and feather with that brush. 

 

 

 

[Serenade]

I've seen that too. The older generation often has these prosperity glasses on based on playing a game that was rigged in their favor and look at the current generation with disdain and smugness. It can be really frustrating. 

 

 

I think it's truly hard for them to see.

 

My mom, who is 78, doesn't seem to understand how things are so different today from when my dad was working and they were raising a family.   I mean, my dad worked at the same job for like 30 years, with regular increases in salary and vacation, and the special retirement dinner when he retired early with an awesome pension plan.  Meanwhile, both my brother and my DH lost their jobs in their 40s and 50s, as is very common today. I'm not sure if she understands that it's not anything they did, but rather the way that most large businesses treat their employees today.  Back in her day, companies WANTED family men, as they were considered reliable.  Today, many jobs prefer young people in good health with small or no families.   They like to use 'em up and burn 'em out, and send 'em on their way.  

[JumpyTheFrog]

I see people on this very forum say they paid their way through college so why should they save for their kids? (I'm talking about people who could afford to help out and choose not to.) In my opinion, *choosing* not to help pay for your kids college or vocational training (if they aren't going to waste the time partying or gaming and drop out) is like throwing them to the wolves, hoping they won't become homeless.

[BarbecueMom]

My dad is literally the "Steve" that is the high school drop out that spent his 20's and early 30's stoned, fathered three kids out of wedlock before marrying and settling down... and has been employed as a programmer at the same company since he was 20, lives a very comfortable life, and will have a satisfying retirement assuming his health holds up.

 

He never would have passed the college degree and drug test gauntlets in the early 80's. All they cared about then was that he did the work, and they practically bribed him with salary and benefits to stay for so long.

 

I think it terrified him when my brother graduated high school, even though my brother has never done any drugs as far as I know (bonus of an extraordinarily picky eater), because there are so many more litmus tests to employment than he faced at that age.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Back in her day, companies WANTED family men, as they were considered reliable.

Whoa, I never knew that having a family used to be a plus in the job hunt. I wonder if it changed after women started entering the workforce in large numbers. Maybe employers became more worried about workers missing days because of sick kids?

 

I agree that many probably want childless workers so they can claim ever more of their time.

[TammyS]

Has anyone seen this meme series? Do you agree with the criticisms of Old Economy Steve? 

 

There are probably a few Baby Boomers here, or at least some of us who remember an economy that was much different than today's. Even I remember in the early 2000's after having worked since 15 (in my early 20's) being taken aback when I applied for a low paying job at a coffee shop and was asked for a resume. 

 

I know there are people out there who agree with Old Economy Steve and think people these days are just a bunch of cry-babies who have it easy and don't make good choices. But a lot of this meme series strikes a chord for what me and DH are living. We are trying to raise a family on one income with the breadwinner having no college degree. It's been just as hard as it sounds. His base, full-time pay is a couple thousand dollars a year above the poverty line for our family size. He doesn't like working tons of overtime but he does it and it keeps us off food stamps for now. 

 

DH has every good quality someone could want in an enployee except that he's not super ambitious or adept at playing the complicated career game. I don't see that as a flaw but apparently the result for that is near poverty. 

 

I guess I just get weary of feeling like everything is our own fault (I know some things are) when there are other forces going on. 

 

I don't really think much of memes in general. 

 

I do have sympathy for the ludicrous difficulty of getting jobs these days, though.  My 17 year old recently started working and in order to get his job he had to: submit a resume, go on 2 interviews, fill out a several page online application complete with test, have a criminal background check, and then a drug test.  He works at Popeyes.  When he got the job, we had to dig up his social security card and get him a gov't issued ID, then he had to spend an hour on the phone with some service that makes sure you are eligible to work in the US (despite his gov't issued ID).

 

When I worked a summer job at McDonald's as a teenager the application was half a page and the only requirement was having a pulse.

 

I don't know what's changed, but it's ridiculous.

[Serenade]

Whoa, I never knew that having a family used to be a plus in the job hunt. I wonder if it changed after women started entering the workforce in large numbers. Maybe employers became more worried about workers missing days because of sick kids?

Well, my dad would be 81 if he were still alive today, so this was a long time ago. Although I remember even in 1992 being told that a certain job was given to a man because he had a family to support, which I guess is different than giving the job to him because of perceived reliability. Ironically, that employer called me about 6 months later and offered me the job because he had left! Um, no thanks.

 

 

I agree that many probably want childless workers so they can claim ever more of their time.

I think this is the biggie, and also the fact that young people are usually healthier. People over 40 are not so desirable anymore. Their health starts to decline, they have other obligations (family -- both children and aging parents), and many are no longer willing to work those 50 and 60 hour weeks. Although that was not the reason my DH was let go. He was working longer and longer hours every year for little, if no pay increases, while the company told all the workers "if you don't like it here, there are 100s lined up to take your place." Which was probably true during the recession.

[Pawz4me]

I am not a millenial and I find that series enraging.Old economy Steve is kind of an as@%hat,.  It is too easy to broadly tar and feather with that brush. 

 

Yes.

 

I'm on the tail end of the Boomers (born in 1963) and I rarely encounter anyone who has a smug attitude or doesn't clearly see the realities of the economic situation of the past ten years or so.  Oh scratch that -- I'm pretty sure I've never meet any older person with that attitude.

 

To lay problems or attitudes on one "generation" is silly and myopic.  Every generation has its struggles.  I remember in the 1980's as a young 20-something when many people were just starting out and trying to buy their first house and mortgage interest rates were running as high as 21 percent.  Not exactly a fun or easy thing to deal with.

 

Repeating myself -- Every "generation" has its struggles.  There was no golden age when everything was rosy.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Pawz4me

[TammyS]

Yes.

 

I'm on the tail end of the Boomers (born in 1963) and I rarely encounter anyone who has a smug attitude or doesn't clearly see the realities of the economic situation of the past ten years or so.  Oh scratch that -- I'm pretty sure I've never meet any older person with that attitude.

 

To lay problems or attitudes on one "generation" is silly and myopic.  Every generation has its struggles.  I remember in the 1980's as a young 20-something when many people were just starting out and trying to buy their first house and mortgage interest rates were running as high as 21 percent.  Not exactly a fun or easy thing to deal with.

 

Repeating myself -- Every "generation" has its struggles.  There was no golden age when everything was rosy.

 

I completely agree.  I remember when my dad refinanced his house about 20 years ago from 14% to 7%, and it cut YEARS off his mortgage.  My own mortgage (almost 3 years old) is 3.25%.  Of course, he paid $24K for his house and I paid $104K, for reasonably similar houses.

[amy g.]

I agree that every generation has struggles. My grand father worked in a Dr.Pepper factory. He did not have a college degree, but he also raised 6 kids in a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom house. My grandmother went to work in a department store once the older girls were in Jr. High and could run the house. They survived with the help of a big garden.

 

My parents had more opportunities, but made bad decisions and were never really willing to make sacrifices for stability or security.

 

My in laws both worked and raised 8 kids in a 3 bedroom 1 bath house that is still in the family.

 

Dh and I did not have financial help after turning 18. We graduated college during a financial downturn when jobs were hard to find, but Dh took a job in a different state and in a different field than he had planned because that is where he could get hired. Over the next few decades, each job has lead to an even better one. Dh consistently delivers at work without complaining and without excuses. We don't make him feel guilty about how much time he spends on work because that is what allows us to have such a nice standard of living.

 

I think one of the keys to Dh's success has been flexibility. Old oppertunities might have been lost, but he is always looking for a new one, even if that means retraining or moving across the country.

 

I do think things are difficult for our children's generation. That is why we are happy to be able to buy them their first car and pay college expenses. I know that this alone puts them at a huge advantage. I also think that homeschooling has given them an advantage. I fully expect all of my children to surpass Dh and I in both income and accomplishments.

 

One thing I find very depressing is that it seems impossible to find a job unless you "know sombody".

 

Dh has helped several people get hired at different companies. He talked to the hiring manager before the interview and it was decided that they would hire who Dh suggested. On interview day, hundreds of applicants show up and interview, but the decision has already been made. They go home hopeful, then wonder what they did wrong when they don't get the job. The answer is nothing.

 

So next to flexibility and work ethics, I want my kids building relationships.

 

I don't really see the point in being upset that society and jobs and lifestyles change. They are going to continue to change. I teach my kids to focus on how they can use the changes to their advantage. What can they do to turn a challenge into an opportunity.

 

I'm only talking about individuals here. Generational trends hold true, but that doesn't doom the individual.

 

My paternal grandfather and Dh's maternal grandfather made quite a bit of money during the depression. Which isn't to say that it was no big deal. Of course it was absolutely devastating.

 

And the challenges facing young people today feel overwhelming. Go ahead and vote for change but then it is time to figure how to make your way in a world that isn't like it was yesterday and won't be the same tomorrow either.

[pinkmint]

 I understand and it's a fair point about criticizing "generations". 

 

Maybe it's because my dad is Old Economy Steve with a side of "When I came to this country" lecture, and if he can do it you're a stupid whiny loser if you can't. It does seem to me though that things have gotten more complicated and harder in many ways though. That's all I'm saying. Lots of people who had lower end jobs could somehow end up as homeowners with a decent standard of living. Plus they were not living in a time where they were basically pressured to make poor choices like massive student debt. 

 

But then again I don't understand how my current peers are doing so well either and they are the same generation as me. 

[Lady Florida.]

Yes.

 

I'm on the tail end of the Boomers (born in 1963) and I rarely encounter anyone who has a smug attitude or doesn't clearly see the realities of the economic situation of the past ten years or so.  Oh scratch that -- I'm pretty sure I've never meet any older person with that attitude.

 

To lay problems or attitudes on one "generation" is silly and myopic.  Every generation has its struggles.  I remember in the 1980's as a young 20-something when many people were just starting out and trying to buy their first house and mortgage interest rates were running as high as 21 percent.  Not exactly a fun or easy thing to deal with.

 

Repeating myself -- Every "generation" has its struggles.  There was no golden age when everything was rosy.

 

:iagree: I don't know any boomer (and as a boomer myself I know a lot of them) who has this attitude towards millennials. I do know a few elderly people (pre WWII) who have that attitude. But only a few. The overwhelming majority of both older and elderly people I know have a great deal of sympathy for young people just starting out. As do GenXers.

 

Those memes look like someone found a few statistics and generalized them to create some kind of boomer utopia. Unions ran the country? No. If you lived in a right-to-work state unions were/are powerless. Owning homes in their 20s? Again, not the norm. When I bought my first house - a townhouse - in 1988 when I was 33, I got a 10.2% interest rate. That was considered fantastic. You didn't pay for college just by working summers though obviously college costs are insane today. Also, the boomers referred to in those memes were very likely white middle class. If, as a boomer, you or your family didn't fit that demographic all bets are off.

 

Thinking the meme is ridiculous doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for young people today. They do have it hard. I sympathize. Trying to find a job is crazy.  I have an 18 yo (tail end of the millennial generation) who has been trying for over a year to land a job. But the meme suggesting how easy it was for Steve to find a job through the classifieds? Disingenuous. Today's version of the classifieds are job search apps and sites like Monster. Professional positions were rarely found through classified ads. As a teacher, no position I ever held was found through the classifieds. Today's job apps actually do list white collar positions, unlike the classifieds of old. 

 

BTW, the real life Steve, who barely made it into the boomer category, isn't doing so well himself. 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/05/meet-the-real-life-old-economy-steve.html

[Bluegoat]

I agree that every generation has struggles. My grand father worked in a Dr.Pepper factory. He did not have a college degree, but he also raised 6 kids in a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom house. My grandmother went to work in a department store once the older girls were in Jr. High and could run the house. They survived with the help of a big garden.

 

My parents had more opportunities, but made bad decisions and were never really willing to make sacrifices for stability or security.

 

My in laws both worked and raised 8 kids in a 3 bedroom 1 bath house that is still in the family.

 

Dh and I did not have financial help after turning 18. We graduated college during a financial downturn when jobs were hard to find, but Dh took a job in a different state and in a different field than he had planned because that is where he could get hired. Over the next few decades, each job has lead to an even better one. Dh consistently delivers at work without complaining and without excuses. We don't make him feel guilty about how much time he spends on work because that is what allows us to have such a nice standard of living.

 

I think one of the keys to Dh's success has been flexibility. Old oppertunities might have been lost, but he is always looking for a new one, even if that means retraining or moving across the country.

 

I do think things are difficult for our children's generation. That is why we are happy to be able to buy them their first car and pay college expenses. I know that this alone puts them at a huge advantage. I also think that homeschooling has given them an advantage. I fully expect all of my children to surpass Dh and I in both income and accomplishments.

 

One thing I find very depressing is that it seems impossible to find a job unless you "know sombody".

 

Dh has helped several people get hired at different companies. He talked to the hiring manager before the interview and it was decided that they would hire who Dh suggested. On interview day, hundreds of applicants show up and interview, but the decision has already been made. They go home hopeful, then wonder what they did wrong when they don't get the job. The answer is nothing.

 

So next to flexibility and work ethics, I want my kids building relationships.

 

I don't really see the point in being upset that society and jobs and lifestyles change. They are going to continue to change. I teach my kids to focus on how they can use the changes to their advantage. What can they do to turn a challenge into an opportunity.

 

I'm only talking about individuals here. Generational trends hold true, but that doesn't doom the individual.

 

My paternal grandfather and Dh's maternal grandfather made quite a bit of money during the depression. Which isn't to say that it was no big deal. Of course it was absolutely devastating.

 

And the challenges facing young people today feel overwhelming. Go ahead and vote for change but then it is time to figure how to make your way in a world that isn't like it was yesterday and won't be the same tomorrow either.

 

I think there is a certain element of returning to more realistic expectations.  A big family in two bedrooms would have been considered yough but not unusual.  While a large family in a three bedroom house they owned (or would own) was considered normal and a reasonable ambition for a family - how they would end up at the peak of their career.

 

There seems to have been a period where people expected that things should become more and more - I don't know - wealthy?  I suspect that goal may have always been unreasonable though.

 

THat is only part of it though - I think the up-front costs to get qualified for a job, for example, are so much greater now, which is a huge barrier for people.  And largely it is an artificiality.  Bad urban planning is starting to catch up with people in many cities.  As is lack of stability in work and issues with benefits.

 

ETA - my paternal great-grandfather made money in the Depression too - he embezzled it from the post-office!

Edited May 5, 2016 by Bluegoat

[goldberry]

I know my parents realize how hard it is.  Recently my dad found out we lost our insurance this year and said, "That's not smart."  Then I told him how much the insurance was going to cost.  He said, "How does anyone afford that?  Ridiculous...."

 

Dad was 20 years military.  Then 20 years at another job that he retired from with pension and health insurance.  Yeah, like that ever happens anymore.

[FaithManor]

My inlaws played the real estate game, and they played it well.  Every house that they ever owned went up in value, most fairly quickly.   They bought their last house in 2002, saw its value rise quickly, plummet just as quickly with the recession, and they now have recovered.  This is the first house in 60 years of marriage that has had the volatile ups and downs.  Every other house has had a steady rise.

We bought a house in 2005, at the peak.  We chose to short-sell in 2010.  Houses in our old neighborhood are still going for $50,000 less than we paid.  ELEVEN years ago.  I wonder if they will ever recover.  We made the right choice for us, but it devastated us financially.

 

My inlaws struggle with understanding this.  It took them 3-4 years to even believe us when we said that the values had fallen.  Just so far out of their reality.  It caused some tense conversations between my dh and his dad about financial responsibility over the last 6 years.

This! My inlaws did the same and over the course of their marriage bought and sold eight homes. They made serious money on each one, and $160,000 profit on the last one. They had the benefit of low COL compared to wages, consistently rising wages for both of them, low health insurance costs and deductibles, etc.

 

My father in law did not understand the pressures on dh and I, and most certainly could not understand why we would make so little or go in the hole on the sale of a house always citing that obviously we made very poor real estate decisions or we would be getting ahead. It never occurred to him that since dh had no job security during the early years of his career that having to move so often just to stay employed and rarely getting a raise of any kind made things very difficult in terms of investing. Mother in law now gets it, kind of. Her last home, the log home near us, lost a bunch of its value when the 2008 mess hit. Due to loss of population and jobs here, it will never recover in her life time (she is 80 now). That said, it is also no skin off her nose because she has enough savings and retirement income that she doesn't need the equity in her house anyway.

 

My parents simply refuse to embrace the economic realities of our situation such as college tuition/room/board outpacing wages by 415% making it impossible for the middle class to even begin to save enough to send one child to college much less multiples while getting no federal and state help with this while their homes lose value, while their health insurance and deductibles go up, while.....my mother brought up the problem the other day of my dad's burial. He has stage four lung cancer that has spread and has less than a year to live. They don't have any savings left and expect dh and I to pay for a traditional and somewhat lavish funeral and burial for him. Nope. We told her that if we had to pay for it, since we have to come up with $26,000 next year for the two boys in college, he would be cremated with a simple outdoor ceremony that cost us pretty much nothing, or she could figure out how to afford a crypt, the cheap pine box, etc. I know it sounds heartless but we aren't using college money for the living to bury the dead, and it is an either or situation. She asked about a meal, but wants to invite something like 300 people. Even with the help of family and friends members contributing salads and desserts, we can't do beverages, main courses, paper plates and other table service, and pay custodial fees for less than $1000.00. So no mom. There isn't going to be a meal except a family potluck for you, and immediate family in my dining room.

 

It is a foreign concept to her. Something akin to totally disrespecting him. Her generation had nice coffins, lots and lots of lovely flowers and memorial plaques, three days of viewing which requires paying the funeral home a handsome fee for their services, $1500.00 or more burial plots/crypts, expensive tombstones, large funeral dinners, etc.  Company pensions from manufacturing and government jobs meant that so many retired comfortably with burial benefits to their life insurance policies that paid for all of this. They chose to remain in small business for themselves and then when he got cancer at the height of the economic debacle here in Michigan, they lost everything. They think we have a lot of money sitting around to pay for this simply because so many of their friends in their age group do. We don't have it, and we have to prioritize the kids' educations over expensive funerals.

 

I feel bad for her. This is going against her family's culture, big time. She has been crying all week about it, but there isn't anything I can do, and I can't make her understand either. She remembers sending me off to college without contributing any funds except a bag of snacks, sheets for the bed, and some new towels plus office supplies. That was it. No other contributions, and I came through with very, very small student loan debt...quite manageable, and the degree paid for itself rather rapidly. She can't wrap her brain around the concept of what we face today with our children's generation having unreal college and vo-tech/licensing expenses, much tougher job market, and low starting wages compared to COL so they need more financial help and for longer periods in order to get started.

 

I also see this lack of embracing economic reality for their children's generation in the way they vote on issues that affect younger generations. They really just aren't concerned about the world their grandchildren are inheriting. Sigh....Their friends in the same age range appear from what they say to be of the same mindset, and consider any hardships that my kids and their peers face to be nothing more than a product of laziness and bellyaching. It gets old.

[Vida Winter]

I don't care for the meme at all. We are living in a different world now. Yes, the economy was better for a time - but if you go back a bit further it was also worse. I remember years where my father was out of work and we struggled to make ends meet. I also remember waiting in long lines to buy gasoline on certain days of the week. College was cheaper - much, much cheaper - but I also worked 20+ hrs per week and survived on peanut butter sandwiches and instant coffee. My idea of feeling "rich" was being able to afford a tub of ice cream in my freezer. I know things have become harder in many ways. That doesn't mean it was particularly easy in those earlier times.

[goldberry]

Today, many jobs prefer young people in good health with small or no families.   They like to use 'em up and burn 'em out, and send 'em on their way.  

 

 

 He was working longer and longer hours every year for little, if no pay increases, while the company told all the workers "if you don't like it here, there are 100s lined up to take your place." 

 

I see this as a natural outcome of the corporate, greed based society.  When all anyone cares about is maximizing profits, this is what you end up with.  The guys at the top are making the big money to do exactly this.  Maximize profits regardless of any human cost or morality.  It's disgusting to me and I think it will only continue to get worse.   

 

There are many companies who still manage to make a profit while treating people like human beings.  It's a choice.

[kewb]

I see this as a natural outcome of the corporate, greed based society.  When all anyone cares about is maximizing profits, this is what you end up with.  The guys at the top are making the big money to do exactly this.  Maximize profits regardless of any human cost or morality.  It's disgusting to me and I think it will only continue to get worse.   

 

There are many companies who still manage to make a profit while treating people like human beings.  It's a choice.

 

Couldn't agree more.  I used to say I was Bob Cratchit at the company I used to work for.  It was all about the profits.  People didn't matter.

[FaithManor]

Except for some issues like worker safety - we've definitely had some pretty major improvements there - I sometimes feel like we've got Marley and Scrooge minding the corporate stores these days.

[amy g.]

I really do not understand the funeral thing. My dad was VERY specific about how he wanted his funeral to be. He even held a "dress rehearsal" for his memorial service the year before he died so he could critique us and make sure we got everything exactly right.

 

He had to have a casket made by monks in Louisiana, a viewing at the most expensive funeral home in town, and then a funeral, then transport of the body across the state so he could be buried next to his mother, then the memorial service, then the headstone.....it cost well over $30,000.

 

If I knew then what I know now, he would have been cremated and had a pot luck gathering in the church basement.

 

I fully support your decision to place your children's needs first.

[Bluegoat]

This! My inlaws did the same and over the course of their marriage bought and sold eight homes. They made serious money on each one, and $160,000 profit on the last one. They had the benefit of low COL compared to wages, consistently rising wages for both of them, low health insurance costs and deductibles, etc.

 

My father in law did not understand the pressures on dh and I, and most certainly could not understand why we would make so little or go in the hole on the sale of a house always citing that obviously we made very poor real estate decisions or we would be getting ahead. It never occurred to him that since dh had no job security during the early years of his career that having to move so often just to stay employed and rarely getting a raise of any kind made things very difficult in terms of investing. Mother in law now gets it, kind of. Her last home, the log home near us, lost a bunch of its value when the 2008 mess hit. Due to loss of population and jobs here, it will never recover in her life time (she is 80 now). That said, it is also no skin off her nose because she has enough savings and retirement income that she doesn't need the equity in her house anyway.

 

My parents simply refuse to embrace the economic realities of our situation such as college tuition/room/board outpacing wages by 415% making it impossible for the middle class to even begin to save enough to send one child to college much less multiples while getting no federal and state help with this while their homes lose value, while their health insurance and deductibles go up, while.....my mother brought up the problem the other day of my dad's burial. He has stage four lung cancer that has spread and has less than a year to live. They don't have any savings left and expect dh and I to pay for a traditional and somewhat lavish funeral and burial for him. Nope. We told her that if we had to pay for it, since we have to come up with $26,000 next year for the two boys in college, he would be cremated with a simple outdoor ceremony that cost us pretty much nothing, or she could figure out how to afford a crypt, the cheap pine box, etc. I know it sounds heartless but we aren't using college money for the living to bury the dead, and it is an either or situation. She asked about a meal, but wants to invite something like 300 people. Even with the help of family and friends members contributing salads and desserts, we can't do beverages, main courses, paper plates and other table service, and pay custodial fees for less than $1000.00. So no mom. There isn't going to be a meal except a family potluck for you, and immediate family in my dining room.

 

It is a foreign concept to her. Something akin to totally disrespecting him. Her generation had nice coffins, lots and lots of lovely flowers and memorial plaques, three days of viewing which requires paying the funeral home a handsome fee for their services, $1500.00 or more burial plots/crypts, expensive tombstones, large funeral dinners, etc.  Company pensions from manufacturing and government jobs meant that so many retired comfortably with burial benefits to their life insurance policies that paid for all of this. They chose to remain in small business for themselves and then when he got cancer at the height of the economic debacle here in Michigan, they lost everything. They think we have a lot of money sitting around to pay for this simply because so many of their friends in their age group do. We don't have it, and we have to prioritize the kids' educations over expensive funerals.

 

I feel bad for her. This is going against her family's culture, big time. She has been crying all week about it, but there isn't anything I can do, and I can't make her understand either. She remembers sending me off to college without contributing any funds except a bag of snacks, sheets for the bed, and some new towels plus office supplies. That was it. No other contributions, and I came through with very, very small student loan debt...quite manageable, and the degree paid for itself rather rapidly. She can't wrap her brain around the concept of what we face today with our children's generation having unreal college and vo-tech/licensing expenses, much tougher job market, and low starting wages compared to COL so they need more financial help and for longer periods in order to get started.

 

I also see this lack of embracing economic reality for their children's generation in the way they vote on issues that affect younger generations. They really just aren't concerned about the world their grandchildren are inheriting. Sigh....Their friends in the same age range appear from what they say to be of the same mindset, and consider any hardships that my kids and their peers face to be nothing more than a product of laziness and bellyaching. It gets old.

 

With things like funeral customs, I always find it interesting to go back a generation or two more, and see how people managed.  Generally they didn't have the disposable income available to people like your parents.  Some things are different - like cost of grave plots can be a lot more now - so you can't look at it as totally equivalent, but I think it can give some insight.

 

If I look back to my grandparents generation, particularly in England where my nana grew up - burying people looked very different.  The undertaker didn't do much so wasn't that expensive.  The funeral service was in the church and churchyard but the viewing - though it might last days - was in the home.  Among her class the food was put on by the immediate family pretty much with some help from extended family, and among the working class it tended to be a little wider spread, and possibly more sparse.

 

Which isn't to say there weren't ever financial issues - my nana's family was devastated financially by her fathers death so everything was very tight.  But the expectation of paying big money for the basics wasn't really there.  The last few generations really commercialized death, and to some extent we've lost the traditions and social capacities to take it back easily.

[FaithManor]

 

 

 

Which isn't to say there weren't ever financial issues - my nana's family was devastated financially by her fathers death so everything was very tight.  But the expectation of paying big money for the basics wasn't really there.  The last few generations really commercialized death, and to some extent we've lost the traditions and social capacities to take it back easily.

I agree completely. I do think that my mom's generation fell very victim to this commercialization, and it affects their view of what is "proper".

[*lifeoftheparty*]

...

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by *lifeoftheparty*

[JumpyTheFrog]

 They don't have any savings left and expect dh and I to pay for a traditional and somewhat lavish funeral and burial for him. Nope. We told her that if we had to pay for it, since we have to come up with $26,000 next year for the two boys in college, he would be cremated with a simple outdoor ceremony that cost us pretty much nothing, or she could figure out how to afford a crypt, the cheap pine box, etc. I know it sounds heartless

It's not heartless, it's wise. The money will benefit your kids much more than the funeral home. It isn't your fault that modern funerals are a racket.

 

About an hour north of here is a "green" cemetary. They dig a hole, you wrap the body in a sheet or something, and then you get GPS coordinates. I told DH to put me there. My mom jokes about being buried in one of those metal toolboxes that go in pickup trucks. She doesn't want the money wasted either.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

...

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by *lifeoftheparty*

[*lifeoftheparty*]

...

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by *lifeoftheparty*

[hornblower]

I like this meme & I think it's quite true. 

I know some Old Economy Steves. In Canada, prior to the 80s, we had high unionization rates, lots of jobs in forestry and mining and manufacturing, good benefits & retirement plans. 

 

It wasn't hard to find work. A couple I know bought their first house in Vancouver when they were in their very early 20s (in the late 1970s). She was a book keeper and he was a baker, both had vocational certificates and no college education. They bought it and rented it out while living in a much smaller apartment because they didn't want yard upkeep as they liked to travel. It was a pretty sweet life. 
 

[FaithManor]

It's not heartless, it's wise. The money will benefit your kids much more than the funeral home. It isn't your fault that modern funerals are a racket.

 

About an hour north of here is a "green" cemetary. They dig a hole, you wrap the body in a sheet or something, and then you get GPS coordinates. I told DH to put me there. My mom jokes about being buried in one of those metal toolboxes that go in pickup trucks. She doesn't want the money wasted either.

That's a great idea.

 

Dh and I are donating our bodies to U of MI medical center. So no burial costs, and letting our corpses be used to train future medical professionals who will undoubtedly save lives appeals to the science bent in us. Our kids know that they can do what they want in terms of a memorial service or whatever if they so choose, but that we are frankly not interested in them spending a bunch of money on it. I told them that if they feel the need to have a gathering, back yard barbecue, s'mores around the bonfire, and lighting off some of their father's fireworks sounded pretty awesome. I mean at the very least, launch a couple of rockets for dad!  :D

 

The funeral industry really is a racket. Coffins that have about $100.00 worth of materials in them run $2500.00. We looked at a price list of services and were just blown away, and man you talk about people who know how to work the emotional manipulation end of things. Thankfully, we are immune to this kind of thing, but I can see how so many grieving people are taken in by it. Good grief, they are in a state of emotional upheaval and the pitch is, "If you really loved your mom, you'd get her the deluxe mahogany model with the silk lining so she can rest her head in peace, the gold filigree reproduction Sistine Chapel artwork, and the $500.00 wreath of roses. I mean, after all, you really did love your mom, right!"

 

I mean no disrespect to all undertakers/funeral directors. I am sure there are some pretty ethical, compassionate people in the industry. It is just that the three local funeral homes are really making a fortune taking advantage of the grieving.

 

Anyway, I think it is very hard to overcome family culture when one tries to be economically pragmatic. It happens in a lot of areas of life, not just the funeral industry. I know a family for whom the tradition is just absolutely massive, crazy big, insanely expensive weddings, and when they tried to opt for something small, intimate, and economically simple for their daughter so they wouldn't have to dip into college money, they had relatives that didn't speak to them for years!  

 

I think though that with the economic reality of wage stagnation, rising costs of pretty much everything, more individuals moving regularly to remain employed, healthcare out of sight, etc. that we will see a lot of individuals from my generation and from my children's generation bucking expensive, family cultural traditions. In some ways that is also sad as there can be a lot of GOOD that comes with tradition as well. It isn't necessarily a desirable thing to see so much cultural diversity sacrificed on the economic altar. But it is what it is.

[TammyS]

.

 

One thing I find very depressing is that it seems impossible to find a job unless you "know sombody".

 

Dh has helped several people get hired at different companies. He talked to the hiring manager before the interview and it was decided that they would hire who Dh suggested. On interview day, hundreds of applicants show up and interview, but the decision has already been made. They go home hopeful, then wonder what they did wrong when they don't get the job. The answer is nothing.

 

 

 

I think this is the result of two different things:

 

1. Less jobs available means companies can be pickier in general.

 

2. Unions, unemployment, regulations, etc., can make it really hard in some places to get rid of a bad hire if you make a mistake.  Which means that a recommendation from someone you know and trust means you are a lot less likely to make a mistake.