Painful Parent- Adult Child Religious Conflict more widespread today?

[TranquilMind]

If you are Christian, it is everything.  Clinging to thinking you are superior to a wayward child in love with someone of the same gender could very well mean your child is justified with God but YOU are not. Again, what Jesus said in Luke 18:9-14.

 

 

ETA:  The wayward word is assuming it is even a sin, which I am not at all certain of.

 

Not Scarlett, but did she state she was superior to those engaged in homosexual relationships (according to her faith)?

 

I didn't see that.  Of course, if she does believe she is superior to those who simply battle different sins than she does, you would be correct, in that this would be Pharisaical.   She battles temptations too, but only she knows what they are, and they may well be different than yours and mine. 

 

But if she doesn't esteem herself as superior to those engaged in gay relationships and isn't saying that at all, then you are twisting her statements. 

 

[Scarlett]

If you are Christian, it is everything. Clinging to thinking you are superior to a wayward child in love with someone of the same gender could very well mean your child is justified with God but YOU are not. Again, what Jesus said in Luke 18:9-14.

 

 

ETA: The wayward word is assuming it is even a sin, which I am not at all certain of.

There is no superior thinking. There is only my thinking of right and wrong. If it turns out God is actually fine with homosexuality in spite of condemning it in the Bible, then I guess I will be proved wrong.

[Scarlett]

Unless there's a gay marriage involved, then compassion and understanding can go right out the window along with the relationship.

What?

[TranquilMind]

When "sins" can be bizarre and arbitrary, rather than being based on simple and fairly universal moral principals such as the Ethic of Reciprocity, then surely a great many people don't know that what you consider a sin is one.

 

Jesus was pretty clear that sins are not bizarre and arbitrary. 

[Scarlett]

Not Scarlett, but did she state she was superior to those engaged in homosexual relationships (according to her faith)?

 

I didn't see that. Of course, if she does believe she is superior to those who simply battle different sins than she does, you would be correct, in that this would be Pharisaical. She battles temptations too, but only she knows what they are, and they may well be different than yours and mine.

 

But if she doesn't esteem herself as superior to those engaged in gay relationships and isn't saying that at all, then you are twisting her statements.

 

Yes. Thank you. I have my own weaknesses.

[Mergath]

What?

 

I don't know how to phrase that any more simply. You should, perhaps, start reading your own posts. You seem very confused whenever someone asks you about something you previously stated.

[Katy]

Not Scarlett, but did she state she was superior to those engaged in homosexual relationships (according to her faith)?

 

I didn't see that.  Of course, if she does believe she is superior to those who simply battle different sins than she does, you would be correct, in that this would be Pharisaical.   She battles temptations too, but only she knows what they are, and they may well be different than yours and mine. 

 

But if she doesn't esteem herself as superior to those engaged in gay relationships and isn't saying that at all, then you are twisting her statements. 

 

 

Refusing to go to your own child's wedding because they are in sin and you just cannot have anything to do with it implies superiority.

[Joker]

Well, you are stating as incontrovertible fact that that God allowed a child to be "born gay", indeed you say God "made her gay", as if this is God's preordained will and plan for her life. 

 

That's a huge assumption, not a fact, and a nonstarter for many Christians.

 

So while you can certainly believe that,  one can argue that it is simply not incontrovertible fact any more than any other sexual sin is preordained by God as one's destiny. 

I realize she is probably a great kid, but that doesn't magically change faith teachings for her, to one who believes them.    The conflict remains, scripturally.

 

 

Yes, I do believe she was born gay. I see God's work in many places I would rather not. I saw His work when my dad and brother were killed in a car accident as well. I don't just choose to feel and see Him working when it suits me. I choose to have faith in Him even in times where it is extremely difficult.

 

I know without a doubt that my dd was born this way because I've heard her praying out and I've wiped her tears. If she could be what most consider normal, she would be. Also, it may not be a fact for many Christians you know but I know many Christians who feel the same as me. 

[Scarlett]

I think, in regards to this issue being discussed, that it is wrong for parents to turn their backs on their children.

 

I don't know what God was thinking when he decided people could be born gay. But, He did allow it. He does do it. Why?

 

I'm not going to spend my life complaining about it, especially since my dd is amazing in every other way. She has a big heart, she helps others, she's a great student, she's focused and goal driven. She is logical and crazy smart.

 

Yet, God also made her gay. I'm not going to decide that this one thing means I turn my back on her and her life. I'm not going to turn away from the amazing gift God gave me. I'm going to love and nurture this gift He gave me.

 

She's not hurting any other living human being. She's not a murderer, cheater, or liar. She's the one who sits with that one kid sitting alone at lunch. She's the one who wants to stop on the side of the road because of a hurt animal. There is nothing in her that is capable of hurting someone else.

 

If I'm wrong, I'll find out later but I don't for one second think that even if I'm wrong that it has any bearing upon my own salvation. I do think I would have to answer for turning my back on her.

God didn't make her gay. We are all born in to inherited sin and imperfection.

[Scarlett]

Refusing to go to your own child's wedding because they are in sin and you just cannot have anything to do with it implies superiority.

No. It does not. It says very firmly that I will not condone wrongdoing.

[Joker]

God didn't make her gay. We are all born in to inherited sin and imperfection.

 

Yeah, He did.  So, now what?

[Mergath]

God didn't make her gay. We are all born in to inherited sin and imperfection.

 

Psalm 139:13-14 You alone created my inner being. You knitted me together inside my mother. I will give thanks to you because I have been so amazingly and miraculously made. Your works are miraculous, and my soul is fully aware of this.

 

 

So does God only make the non-gay parts? 

[Scarlett]

I don't know how to phrase that any more simply. You should, perhaps, start reading your own posts. You seem very confused whenever someone asks you about something you previously stated.

I read my posts just fine. If I misunderstood some point you or anyone was trying to make I will correct my posts. You claimed I said people sin without intent. I don't think that. People with eating disorders or mental illness are to be en encourahed to do right. If their behavior is beyond their control of course God won't judge them adversely. But it is not our right to say oh it doesn't apply to you, go ahead and do that thing that is a sin for anyone else.

[Χά�ων]

Are you religious?

 

Do you mean, "Am I Christian?" the answer to that is no. Am I religious? Depends on how you view religious. :)

 

For everything I have a strong stance (or belief) on I listen to all sides, look at the science, examine cultural biases, and then I reflect on what I have learned and my personal experience and decide for myself where I stand on an issue. I do not accept any arguments based on fallacy. I reexamine my views when I encounter new information, no matter the POV. I listen, I reflect, I adapt (or not). There are many things on which, after looking at all sides I have changed my stance on. Somethings I did a complete 180 on, others I went from not holding an opinion about (or even knowing about it) to having a very strong opinion about.

[athomeontheprairie]

I started reading this thread a little while ago, and wanted to commit. Then I came back and it had exploded! I haven't read all the responses, so it's highly possible someone else mentioned this possibility.

Regarding the teacher polling the third graders (however informally), the answers could be completely skewed based on their parents. My best friend is a lesbian. Nearly all her friends are. Many of them have children. If those kids were polled on whether they are gay or not, many may say they are BECAUSE they want to be like their parents. Whether it will play out to 50% as they grow is doubtful, but they could be open to it because of the reality of their homelife (or because of family friends, or extended family, etc.)

 

ETA: just read more of the responses. Wow did this thread digress

Edited April 27, 2016 by athomeontheprairie

[Scarlett]

Yeah, He did. So, now what?

No He didn't. Imo. Ymmv

[Scarlett]

Psalm 139:13-14 You alone created my inner being. You knitted me together inside my mother. I will give thanks to you because I have been so amazingly and miraculously made. Your works are miraculous, and my soul is fully aware of this.

 

 

So does God only make the non-gay parts?

God made humans and we are amazing. However we are now imperfect and have many many problems.

[Scarlett]

Yes, I do believe she was born gay. I see God's work in many places I would rather not. I saw His work when my dad and brother were killed in a car accident as well. I don't just choose to feel and see Him working when it suits me. I choose to have faith in Him even in times where it is extremely difficult.

 

I know without a doubt that my dd was born this way because I've heard her praying out and I've wiped her tears. If she could be what most consider normal, she would be. Also, it may not be a fact for many Christians you know but I know many Christians who feel the same as me.

You believe God was involved in a car accident that killed your father and brother?

[Leonana]

So what you're saying here is that if I have a tumor on my hypothalamus that causes me to eat everything in the house because I feel permanently ravenous, I'm sinning.

 

If I have Tourette Syndrome and I compulsively say something like "God d*** it!" repeatedly, I'm sinning.

 

If a woman is born with a ridiculously curvy figure and looks "immodest" even in the world's baggiest mumu (I'm looking at you, Christina Hendricks ;)) she's sinning every time she leaves the house and people look at her.

 

If the ability or inability to sin is sometimes beyond a person's control, what the heck is even the point? 

 

I'm not sure this analogy works, at least comparing homosexuality to a medical condition. A medical condition such as overeating would be considered something to be cured, a negative to be overcome. It wouldn't be considered a sin, but it's also something the person desperately wants to change because it impacts their life negatively. I'm not sure that's how most here would define homosexuality, as a medical condition to be cured.

 

ETA: I see you addressed this below. Posting at the same time I guess!

Edited April 27, 2016 by Leonana

[Mergath]

I read my posts just fine. If I misunderstood some point you or anyone was trying to make I will correct my posts. You claimed I said people sin without intent. I don't think that. People with eating disorders or mental illness are to be en encourahed to do right. If their behavior is beyond their control of course God won't judge them adversely. But it is not our right to say oh it doesn't apply to you, go ahead and do that thing that is a sin for anyone else.

 

So if my brain is wired to make me want to eat ALL THE CARBS and I just can't stop, God totally gets it. It's a sin that I won't be judged for. But my brain being wired to make me want to lick honey off Angelina Jolie is really bad and I should be ashamed.

 

Genetics are genetics. When our brains are wired in such a way that it's harmful- mental illness, etc.- we classify it as a disorder and try to help the person. When our brains are wired in a way that isn't harmful- sexual orientation, personal preferences, etc- it's just part of who we are.  When you get right down to it though, it's mostly just differences in the wiring and the chemicals.

 

So to God, some of these quirks are okay, some aren't. The ones that make us hurt ourselves he forgives because they're disorders, but the traits that don't hurt anyone, like being gay, are very naughty and displease God tremendously.

 

That seems really fickle and pointless.

[Scarlett]

So if my brain is wired to make me want to eat ALL THE CARBS and I just can't stop, God totally gets it. It's a sin that I won't be judged for. But my brain being wired to make me want to lick honey off Angelina Jolie is really bad and I should be ashamed.

 

Genetics are genetics. When our brains are wired in such a way that it's harmful- mental illness, etc.- we classify it as a disorder and try to help the person. When our brains are wired in a way that isn't harmful- sexual orientation, personal preferences, etc- it's just part of who we are. When you get right down to it though, it's mostly just differences in the wiring and the chemicals.

 

So to God, some of these quirks are okay, some aren't. The ones that make us hurt ourselves he forgives because they're disorders, but the traits that don't hurt anyone, like being gay, are very naughty and displease God tremendously.

 

That seems really fickle and pointless.

Nothing you just said do I agree with. Let's just accept that fact and move on.

[Joker]

You believe God was involved in a car accident that killed your father and brother?

 

I saw good come out of it, yes. I saw people change their lives because of it. I saw His work through it all. I watched my mother kneel next to and forgive the person who caused the accident, which in turn allowed him to be okay with what happened. I don't believe God is only involved with the good and easy in our lives. 

 

I've seen His work in my dd through this. Her faith has become stronger since coming out to us. She has spent more time researching and reading the Bible. She has spent more time in prayer. Her being gay and admitting that to us has actually brought her closer to God. I believe my dd's faith to be as important to her as yours is to you. 

[Mergath]

I'm not sure this analogy works, at least comparing homosexuality to a medical condition. A medical condition such as overeating would be considered something to be cured, a negative to be overcome. It wouldn't be considered a sin, but it's also something the person desperately wants to change. I'm not sure that's how most here would define homosexuality, as a medical condition to be cured.

 

I never said being gay or bi was a medical condition. Everything about us is biology, though. Sometimes, the biology causes a dysfunction and needs to be treated to prevent harm, like me having OCD. Some biological traits, like me being bi or you being straight (I'm assuming) are not dysfunctional. 

[Scarlett]

I saw good come out of it, yes. I saw people change their lives because of it. I saw His work through it all. I watched my mother kneel next to and forgive the person who caused the accident, which in turn allowed him to be okay with what happened. I don't believe God is only involved with the good and easy in our lives.

 

I've seen His work in my dd through this. Her faith has become stronger since coming out to us. She has spent more time researching and reading the Bible. She has spent more time in prayer. Her being gay and admitting that to us has actually brought her closer to God. I believe my dd's faith to be as important to her as yours is to you.

I do not believe God causes anything bad. Not car accidents and not homosexual tendencies.

[Χά�ων]

Nothing you just said do I agree with. Let's just accept that fact and move on.

It would be nice if you could break it down and explain it to use in more details so we can understand.

[Katy]

You believe God was involved in a car accident that killed your father and brother?

 

A lot of Calvinists believe God causes everything, because at the very least, he is all-powerful and could have stopped it.

 

Hearing a devout Presbyterian discuss all the implications of that (God causes everything bad) is what changed my mind about both Calvinism and made me stop judging a friend who was raised Calvinist but is now agnostic because she can't bring herself to believe in a God who commits so much evil. When you're taught that by your church, that some are chosen and some are trash, which is arguably biblical but I would say is taken out of context, it's hard to separate that from your entire concept of Christianity.

 

[Scarlett]

I never said being gay or bi was a medical condition. Everything about us is biology, though. Sometimes, the biology causes a dysfunction and needs to be treated to prevent harm, like me having OCD. Some biological traits, like me being bi or you being straight (I'm assuming) are not dysfunctional.

Of course being bi to you is not an issue because you don't believe in God or that God sets the standard.

[Katy]

I never said being gay or bi was a medical condition. Everything about us is biology, though. Sometimes, the biology causes a dysfunction and needs to be treated to prevent harm, like me having OCD. Some biological traits, like me being bi or you being straight (I'm assuming) are not dysfunctional. 

 

While I agree with you, not many Christians think these traits are biological.  Instead, it's sinning because you just refuse to trust God.  If you just had faith, you'd stop growing the demon of OCD.

 

I wish I was kidding.  I think spiritual abuse is the worst thing about religion.

[Χά�ων]

I do not believe God causes anything bad. Not car accidents and not homosexual tendencies.

 

Ok, now I am confused. If god does not cause anything bad, than how can people who are born gay (ie god made them that way) be bad? How can them wanting to finding a loving partner and to be married be a sin?

[Scarlett]

It would be nice if you could break it down and explain it to use in more details so we can understand.

There is no point. She doesn't want to understand anyway. She wants to prove me wrong.

[Leonana]

I never said being gay or bi was a medical condition. Everything about us is biology, though. Sometimes, the biology causes a dysfunction and needs to be treated to prevent harm, like me having OCD. Some biological traits, like me being bi or you being straight (I'm assuming) are not dysfunctional. 

 

I added to my post that I saw you answered it below me.

 

I think that religious people who believe it is a sin see it as dysfunctional, and harmful to the person and society.

 

I was raised that it was a sin, and have evolved to believe that it is not a sin, and that people should have partners. It's hard to be alone, and no one should be discriminated against. However, I haven't quite gotten to the point that I think homosexuality is just as good for the person or society as being heterosexual. Rome wasn't built in a day, lol.

[Mergath]

Of course being bi to you is not an issue because you don't believe in God or that God sets the standard.

 

No, I don't believe in YOUR God. You don't have a monopoly on the Divine.

[Χά�ων]

While I agree with you, not many Christians think these traits are biological.  Instead, it's sinning because you just refuse to trust God.  If you just had faith, you'd stop growing the demon of OCD.

 

I wish I was kidding.  I think spiritual abuse is the worst thing about religion.

I see the scars that run deep as a result of spiritual abuse in those I love and it greatly saddens me. 

[Scarlett]

Ok, now I am confused. If god does not cause anything bad, than how can people who are born gay (ie god made them that way) be bad? How can them wanting to finding a loving partner and to be married be a sin?

We are imperfect but that is from inherited sin from Adam. It is our imperfections that cause us to desire wrong things and to sin. We can fight against wrong desires.

[Katy]

Ok, now I am confused. If god does not cause anything bad, than how can people who are born gay (ie god made them that way) be bad? How can them wanting to finding a loving partner and to be married be a sin?

 

The theology goes that the world was corrupted when Adam tried the apple, and everything evil is a natural consequence of that.

 

Whether that is a force of inherited sin or a force of death is a major difference between Western and Eastern Orthodox churches.

[Χά�ων]

There is no point. She doesn't want to understand anyway. She wants to prove me wrong.

Some of us are trying to understand. 

[Scarlett]

No, I don't believe in YOUR God. You don't have a monopoly on the Divine.

I beg your pardon. I thought you were atheist. So you believe in a God who condones bi sexuality?

[Mergath]

While I agree with you, not many Christians think these traits are biological.  Instead, it's sinning because you just refuse to trust God.  If you just had faith, you'd stop growing the demon of OCD.

 

I wish I was kidding.  I think spiritual abuse is the worst thing about religion.

 

Oh, I believe you. When I was a teenager, I had another girl refuse to be in the same room with me at a summer job because I have epilepsy, and everyone knows seizures are caused by demon possession.

 

You can't make this stuff up.

[mamiof5]

So this is how you imagine things happen?

Not all the time of course. But yeah, heard of it happening around here...actually becoming kind of common, which is a shame. The topic is no joke :(

[Tanaqui]

I thought that was a reply. You said not all people agree with my definition of sin.

 

Yes, and I *also* said that your definition of sin is bizarre and arbitrary.

 

I then went on to point out that IF your definition of what is a sin is the correct one, then a great many people no doubt sin in ignorance because your definition completely without reason.

 

Which means that your statement that nobody sins without knowledge is ridiculous.

[Χά�ων]

We are imperfect but that is from inherited sin from Adam. It is our imperfections that cause us to desire wrong things and to sin. We can fight against wrong desires.

 

 

The theology goes that the world was corrupted when Adam tried the apple, and everything evil is a natural consequence of that.

 

Whether that is a force of inherited sin or a force of death is a major difference between Western and Eastern Orthodox churches.

 

I have never been able to wrap my mind around the concept of original sin. I cannot reconcile it to what I have witnessed in life and what I have learned about the causes of behaviors.

[Katy]

Oh, I believe you. When I was a teenager, I had another girl refuse to be in the same room with me at a summer job because I have epilepsy, and everyone knows seizures are caused by demon possession.

 

You can't make this stuff up.

 

I'm so sorry.  I had something similar happen to me.  Condition diagnosed by neurologist, went to a church prayer session and was accused of allowing a demon.  When I was too sick to pursue it with the pastors and the head pastor found out, he yelled at me for not addressing it in the biblical way. Nice.

[Scarlett]

Yes, and I *also* said that your definition of sin is bizarre and arbitrary.

 

I then went on to point out that IF your definition of what is a sin is the correct one, then a great many people no doubt sin in ignorance because your definition completely without reason.

 

Which means that your statement that nobody sins without knowledge is ridiculous.

Sigh. I don't think I said people sin without knowledge. But hey maybe I did. Shoot me.

[Tanaqui]

We are imperfect but that is from inherited sin from Adam. It is our imperfections that cause us to desire wrong things and to sin. We can fight against wrong desires.

 

Illogical. Who made Adam imperfect? Who put the tree out there to tempt him? Who made the rules such that we all could inherit sin? The same being who created the first sinner by definition must have created sin.

[Mergath]

I beg your pardon. I thought you were atheist. So you believe in a God who condones bi sexuality?

 

Nope, not an atheist. I'm a Buddhist-Pagan hybrid. I don't like the word "God" because it comes so laden with patriarchal baggage, but essentially, yes. In my beliefs, being bisexual is just part of the wonderful spectrum of humanity and the ways in which we love. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Mergath

[Tanaqui]

Sigh. I don't think I said people sin without knowledge. But hey maybe I did. Shoot me.

 

I didn't say you did. I said you said NOBODY does. For crying out loud, you quoted me paraphrasing you.

 

Here's your specific words:

 

What does that mean not for Scarlett? People don't sin without knowledge or intention.

 

[Mergath]

I'm so sorry.  I had something similar happen to me.  Condition diagnosed by neurologist, went to a church prayer session and was accused of allowing a demon.  When I was too sick to pursue it with the pastors and the head pastor found out, he yelled at me for not addressing it in the biblical way. Nice.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[mamiof5]

It's important to understand the context of what you're describing. For historical reasons, it's very important for the GLBT community to be visible.

Visibility has changed the way these folks are treated. Visibility means that Christian mom who finds herself with a gay kid can nowadays often find a family in her congregation who has walked a similar path, who can support her as she struggles to reconcile her child and her faith.

 

That said, "disrupting a class to announce he's bisexual" is generally not appropriate behavior in a school setting, regardless of the particulars of the orientation that's being announced. It's just as inappropriate to disrupt a class to declare your feelings for the opposite sex. Except perhaps for a Promposal. Because everyone loves a good Promposal.

A proposal would be cute. Or asking for prom? Totally understand why the LGBT community needs visibility. I just hope too much visibility is not also attracting negative situations. One time discussing the topic with a mom around here she seemed genuinely concerned, both at the highschool and junior high her kids attended it seemed to be the "IN" thing to do. Of all the people her kids knew of, who had "come out", it wasn't clear who was serious about it or not? Haven't followed up on that recently, so I don't know if it's still happening as much as it was for some time.

[Katy]

I have never been able to wrap my mind around the concept of original sin. I cannot reconcile it to what I have witnessed in life and what I have learned about the causes of behaviors.

 

It never made sense to me either.  I must admit, learning the Eastern concepts of the basics of the faith - sin vs death, salvation vs purification, and for that matter, evangelism, basically addressed all the logical issues I have with Christianity.  We're relocating to an area with a couple options for Orthodox churches, and I can't wait to try them.

[Tanaqui]

It occurs to me that you might mean that it simply doesn't count as a sin if you don't know better. If this is the case, then surely it is a crime against humanity to tell people that harmless things they do are sins. If you don't tell them, then it isn't a sin. You're making it a sin by informing them.

 

What is it Pratchett said about this? Ah yes -

 

“The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.â€