micromanaging vs. training vs. guiding

[Miss Mousie]

In terms of raising our kids, I think everyone's knee-jerk position would be that guidance is best and micromanaging stinks, right?  But I'd like to open a discussion to tease apart what each term means in practice, and whether one approach fits some situations while other situations require something else.  Also curious as to whether age/development makes a difference, or whether it's more about "parenting style" generally.  I imagine there will be some variety of opinions, which is what I'm after.

 

I'm not even sure how to start.  Maybe with a few examples.  Which are you most likely to say:

 

"Eat this banana" vs. "have some fruit every day" vs. "I bought some fruit, in case you want any"

 

"Rewrite yesterday's math in the correct notebook" vs. "Use the notebook pages in order, and only for X subject" vs. "here's a stack of notebooks for your schoolwork"

 

"All of your emails will be copied to me automatically" vs. "Don't delete any emails" vs. "What did Dr. X say about the assignment you emailed yesterday?"

 

Am I making any sense at all? 

 

Probably not.

[AK_Mom4]

I think it's a continuum.

 

I micromanaged my little kids.

I trained them as they got older.

I guide them as teens and now that they are young adults, I am their cheerleader and support team.

 

Al of these techniques are appropriate over time.

[regentrude]

I think it's a continuum.

 

I micromanaged my little kids.

I trained them as they got older.

I guide them as teens and now that they are young adults, I am their cheerleader and support team.

 

Al of these techniques are appropriate over time.

 

This.

The OP's examples show this progression quite nicely:

 

 

"Eat this banana" vs. "have some fruit every day" vs. "I bought some fruit, in case you want any"

 

"Rewrite yesterday's math in the correct notebook" vs. "Use the notebook pages in order, and only for X subject" vs. "here's a stack of notebooks for your schoolwork

 

I would have said each: the first to a young kid vs the second  to a middle grades kid vs the third to a teen.

[SKL]

I started switching from training to guidance between 2nd and 3rd grade.  It is a gradual transition though.  It can be hard to let go of some things, and sometimes I take back control of something I had let them manage for a while.  With some things (such as cooking on the stove), we are still solidly in training mode.  Training mode will come again when they start driving.

 

Micromanaging is what I do when I don't have time or other leeway to let them make their own mistakes.  If they ever master time and money management, that will be a great day.  :)

[JumpyTheFrog]

As far as extracurricular activities, I am currently reading "Positive Pushing" by Jim Taylor. Someone (can't remember who) recommended this book to me a few months ago on a thread about gymnastics. I'm about halfway through and it is a fantastic book. I keep thinking that someone should invent a time machine and go back in time to give it to the Tiger Mom (Amy Chua).

[Arcadia]

My dad and my MIL micromanage mainly due to residual anxiety from having gone through poverty. There is a strong fear of something bad happening. The rest of us swing towards the free and easy end of guiding.

 

For your fruit example, my MIL will cut them up and insist everyone takes a slice. The rest of us would be like dump bought fruits in fruit basket and anyone just help themselves as and when they want to.

 

For homework, writing materials are always well stocked. My MIL and my dad would want kids to use pages in order, finishing a notebook or writing pad at a time. I don't mind as long as my kids' completed work is in neat stacks for me to check and grade.

 

For emails, I am wary of my kids having their own accounts without oversight because they are a lot more sheltered than hubby and I was. Same for social accounts like Facebook. Hubby was thinking of letting my kids have email accounts for convenience when they were like 8 but our kids do change passwords of their online accounts for online classes. Hubby does not have a Facebook account because people do check and form impressions of whatever is on your home page. We'll see when our kids are matured enough to handle emails when they know no one is going to read before they send.

 

I'll say hubby and my personality tends to avoid micromanaging because we find it tiring. Hubby leans more training while I lean more guiding. Hubby would scaffold a new task mos of the time while I'll let our kids figure it out.

[SKL]

I do sign my kids up for stuff they didn't ask for, though this is changing as they approach middle school.  I feel they should do something physical every day, and practice any age-appropriate academic skills that don't come easy.  I do consider their preferences, within that framework.  But since they cannot transport themselves on their own, their choices are limited by my driving parameters.  I suppose that looks like micro-managing to some people.  :)

[HS Mom in NC]

You have to micromanage to some degree early on when you teach something step by step.  As they get the hang of it, they don't need as much from mom.  Things that require precision need more than things that don't, so it's a matter of determining what the task is and your child actually knows and is capable of doing before deciding what wording to use and how much supervision is necessary.

[bolt.]

I think at all stages of development some skills are new (just growing) and other skills are "old hat" and many skills are in between.

 

The amount of support, supervision, and instruction a child needs friends on where they are at with a particular skill... Which you can usually tell just by noticing their level of competence.

[bolt.]

I generally don't micro-manage until I am ready to train, and I believe training is developmentally and situationally likely to be successful... And then I train with a very short micro-management phase to learn any steps or limits (or whatever) before moving on.

 

A child who is under micro-management and not moving beyond that phase fairly swiftly -- s/he it isn't actually learning the skill. So, at that point in time, it's usually a waste of both out effort to do it through micro-management. I just take a break and teach it when it's learnable (unless taking a break from that skill is more work than continuing to micro-manage it). By 'take a break' I mean that I either don't try to make it happen at all, or I make it a parent responsibility not something that is currently 'on the child's plate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Beats me.  They don't come with instruction manuals, and I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing.  I am sure sometimes I don't get it right. 

 

 

[nd293]

You are absolutely making sense. Ds9 is, and dd15 was, at a very, very traditional Montessori school, and this a huge issue impacting on the quality of education the school provides (it's low, according to my expectations and compared to that of local state schools). As I've tried to unpack what has gone wrong, I've figured out that the concepts you describe are at the core of the problem: for this school, there is no continuum - you either control children (bad) or give them freedom to grow (good). There is only internal motivation (good) and external coercion (bad).

 

This is a hugely problematic view which does the children a great disservice. A recent example with ds is that he's not getting much done each day. A chat with him revealed that he knows he spends too much time talking and he knows that if he sat by himself, rather than in his group, he'd get more done. A meeting with his teacher revealed exactly the same, and that he has the freedom to move his desk whenever he wants. If his lack of work gets excessive, the 'consequence' will be that his teacher insists he moves his desk. But failing that, she won't strongly encourage him to move it or tell him to try it for one day because that falls under the 'control' heading - he has the freedom to move if he wants, and that's where it ends. But from his perspective, he feels it's being rude if he moves away from his group, and anyway, trying something new is always hard. And so he languishes... I decided the play the 'mother knows best' card and instructed him to move his desk for one week and he is getting a ton of work done and is very pleased with himself.

 

There are many examples like this from the school which have me firmly convinced that good parents and educational / life mentors must provide a balance. That is where the wisdom of experience comes in, and we are failing our children if we fail to provide this sort of guidance.

 

Dd15 has moved to a traditional school and I realise I'm going to have to backtrack with her and identify where her skills are on the continuum of self management and step in with the appropriate level of supervision on the 'control continuum'. She does her homework willingly - she just needs guidance in this area. In the area of preparing for tests and assignments she needs training - what to do, when to do it, and practice until this comes naturally. But I'm going to micromanage the planning side of things - view her planner each day, ensure she's tracking due dates etc as she doesn't seem to have any sort of ability to do this.

 

I think what I'm saying is that yes, this is a continuum, but it resides against the continuum of self-management skills the child has developed. We need to use our tools on the control skills as appropriate the the child's specific level of self-management in different areas while also trying to move them along the self-management continuum over time.

[DesertBlossom]

I agree it's a continuum and that it depends on age. I also think that there are certain things you can "guide" even little kids in that some don't. I've heard multiple people complain about the daily battle getting their Kers dressed for school because mom wants them cute and accessorized and kid has their own ideas. For me I don't care except that it must be clean and you can't be naked. Except for Sundays, special occasions and family pictures where the standards are a bit higher.

[38carrots]

As far as extracurricular activities, I am currently reading "Positive Pushing" by Jim Taylor. Someone (can't remember who) recommended this book to me a few months ago on a thread about gymnastics. I'm about halfway through and it is a fantastic book. I keep thinking that someone should invent a time machine and go back in time to give it to the Tiger Mom (Amy Chua).

 

Could you tell me a little bit more about the book?

 

I used to be almost adamantly against "pushing" but I'm realizing that there's a balance and my children (at least 2 of them) benefit greatly from encouragement that borders on "pushing." This is rather alien to me and I second guess myself all the time.

 

[MaeFlowers]

nm

Edited April 5, 2016 by MaeFlowers

[Miss Mousie]

Last night I was trying to figure out what in the world I was thinking in posting this thread (lol) and I realized it's about dealing with the different levels at the same time for different situations.  My "problem" is that I focus on my micromanaging because it's so exasperating and takes so much of my attention and energy, so I feel like that's ALL I'm doing.  And I worry that the micromanaging really is bleeding over into more "training-worthy" or "guidance-worthy" areas.

 

The showers, for example.  I have been telling DS nearly every night for at least the last five years to "get in, get clean, get out."  And *still* I have to hustle him out when I realize it has been, oh, 20 minutes since he got in.  Grrr.  My water bill is so high!  I have threatened to charge him, but haven't yet, because that would be petty and mean.  But it's driving me crazy!

 

Then there's washing and re-washing dishes.  And doing his laundry - ALL of the phases, not just the washer phase. 

 

Those are the big ones, I guess; but it seems like so much!  And he'll be 15 very soon!  How can I train a kid to drive a car when he can't even manage his own shower?!

 

/rant [for now....]

[HS Mom in NC]

 

 

The showers, for example.  I have been telling DS nearly every night for at least the last five years to "get in, get clean, get out."  And *still* I have to hustle him out when I realize it has been, oh, 20 minutes since he got in.  Grrr.  My water bill is so high!  I have threatened to charge him, but haven't yet, because that would be petty and mean.  But it's driving me crazy!

 

Two things here:

 

1. How long do you think is appropriate?  What you said, "get in, get clean, get out.", isn't actually time specific.  I would tell my kid what amount of time my budget allows and keep a timer in the bathroom and tell my kid to use it because I'll be watching the lock during showers.   Some people have no internal clock or natural sense of urgency.  That's why we have timers for things.

 

2.  Have you set up a consequence of some sort ?  It sounds like you considered one that you decided didn't work for you, but that doesn't mean there aren't other options available. It sounds like he knows he can ignore the quick shower rule so he does.  Can he lose some sort of privilege?

 

Maybe instead of telling, you should be asking, "So how long should your shower take?" and, " Why?"  and wait for him to answer out loud. At this point he should be able to articulate something along the lines of, "X minutes" or "just long enough to get the job done" and "because the water bill is too high" or something that makes him own it. You want him to take on your thought process and he's less likely to do that if you're doing all the thinking for him.

 

 

Then there's washing and re-washing dishes.  And doing his laundry - ALL of the phases, not just the washer phase. 

 

Dishes. What does that mean?  Do you mean he gets out several clean glasses every day (a new one each time he has a drink) instead of reusing the same glass several times a day? Do you mean he washes the dishes so poorly that you choose to either make him rewash them correctly or you're rewashing them for him? Something else?

 

Laundry. What do you mean?  Do you mean he never even gets the laundry started?  Do you mean he gets it through the first phase or two like washing and drying but not the last phase or two like drying and put away properly? Something else? Again, a timer would be helpful in this situation if the buzzers for the washer and the drier can't be heard throughout the house.  Maybe it needs to be an assigned time where he isn't allowed to do any leisure activities until the laundry has been completed. Maybe another privilege should be lost to help him remember to get it done.  Maybe he needs to work to pay a sibling or mom to do his laundry for a month. Maybe instead of moving laundry to the next phase for him, the person needing the laundry room should dump his laundry unfinished on his bed-even if it's still damp.  Then he'll have to do without clean clothes until the laundry room is free again. 

 

 

Those are the big ones, I guess; but it seems like so much!  And he'll be 15 very soon!  How can I train a kid to drive a car when he can't even manage his own shower?!

 

I'm wondering, based on reading your post, if not communicating clear, specific expectations and consequences is contributing to the problem.  I found your post to be vague and confusing.

 

/rant [for now....]

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I agree with the post above that your post is very vague. I think working out specifics will make it easier for you to tell him what is appropriate.

[MegP]

I hope you are not re-doing the chores that he didn't do correctly. And I hope you are not doing his laundry. 

 

What chores and responsibilities does he have around the house? Does he mow the grass? Clean a bathroom? Make his own breakfast and lunch?

[Miss Mousie]

Thanks for the detailed commentary, HM in AZ.  In my defense ( ;) ), DS knows the expectations; I just didn't think y'all needed to know every detail to understand my frustration.

 

Some clarifications:

 

I do not have a set time limit for a shower.  But it seems pretty obvious that shampooing/washing/rinsing a single human body should not take 20 minutes.  I haven't given him a timer because I'm not usually in the vicinity when it rings - so it would be unenforceable.  The only consequence to him is that he has less time to himself before bed - and sometimes he has to dry/clean the walls when the condensation is streaming down them.  I would think after so many years he could get himself down to a reasonable time (under 15 would be a good start) without my or DH's interference.  He does do it once in a while, usually when he's already in the doghouse, so I know it can be done if he wants to.  I like the questions you posed; maybe I'll try that. 

 

Dishes - there are just too many dishes that make it to the drying rack with food still on them or slimy because he didn't rinse them.  There have been times when he has had to wash the same dishes 3 times before they could be put away.  It's just sloppy work.  The consequence there is that he doesn't get paid when the dishes aren't clean.

 

Laundry - he has his own full day to do laundry, and usually has only one load.  I write "laundry" on his list every week, so he knows it needs to be done even though I'm at work and can't remind him when it's time for the next step.  He'll get it in the washer in the morning, then forget about it (even when he's working 10 feet away) until late afternoon or even dinnertime when DH or I ask if his laundry's finished.  Or he'll get it through the dryer but then forget to put the clothes away.  Other times he manages to get it all done.  I don't care that it takes him 9 hours to get through all the steps as long as he gets them done - preferably without reminders from DH or me.

 

I generally do not re-do his work for him.

 

Did I cover everything?

[Miss Mousie]

I hope you are not re-doing the chores that he didn't do correctly. And I hope you are not doing his laundry. 

 

What chores and responsibilities does he have around the house? Does he mow the grass? Clean a bathroom? Make his own breakfast and lunch?

 

I don't re-do his work, and yes, he has all of those chores, which he usually manages well enough that I don't have to send him back (except for the bathroom, sometimes).  So I guess those particular chores fall under the "guidance" heading, except that I still have to tell him when they need to be done (well, not the meals, lol).

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Miss Mousie

[SparklyUnicorn]

Last night I was trying to figure out what in the world I was thinking in posting this thread (lol) and I realized it's about dealing with the different levels at the same time for different situations.  My "problem" is that I focus on my micromanaging because it's so exasperating and takes so much of my attention and energy, so I feel like that's ALL I'm doing.  And I worry that the micromanaging really is bleeding over into more "training-worthy" or "guidance-worthy" areas.

 

The showers, for example.  I have been telling DS nearly every night for at least the last five years to "get in, get clean, get out."  And *still* I have to hustle him out when I realize it has been, oh, 20 minutes since he got in.  Grrr.  My water bill is so high!  I have threatened to charge him, but haven't yet, because that would be petty and mean.  But it's driving me crazy!

 

Then there's washing and re-washing dishes.  And doing his laundry - ALL of the phases, not just the washer phase. 

 

Those are the big ones, I guess; but it seems like so much!  And he'll be 15 very soon!  How can I train a kid to drive a car when he can't even manage his own shower?!

 

/rant [for now....]

 

I think they just don't realize stuff like "water costs money".  And it seems everything has to be repeated about 1000 times before it sinks in! 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

Dishes - my kids wash their own and we don't pay anyway. They use a plate for each meal so its easier to scrub clean with a dish sponge. If we are having deep fried dishes for our meals, we actually use disposable plates. Having to wash an oily plate a few times with dish detergent is probably going to cost us almost as much.

 

My aunt cooks for her family and mine so she cooks for 10. My single aunt who stays with her would overseer the washing of personal plates and utensils. Even distracted adults miss stains at times.

 

For laundry, I think it is a matter of being distracted. When I was staying at my university hostel, the rules at the laundry room was that laundry pails/baskets are labelled with the room number and put on top of the washer and that people could empty the washer of clean laundry if all are used up. It happens often because people put in their dirty laundry before dinner and forgot to pick up their clean laundry after dinner.

 

I am guilty of long baths but I had never paid for water separately as I had always stayed in apartments so no individual water meter. It has always been a flat rate for me regardless of how much we use. Bathing is for relaxing in my family and my kids take long baths too. However I do agree that 20mins is quite long.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Our water is a flat rate too.  I never lived with metered water either.  Which is nice!

 

 

[Miss Mousie]

I think they just don't realize stuff like "water costs money".  And it seems everything has to be repeated about 1000 times before it sinks in! 

 

 

 

 

Exactly!  This is the heart of my frustration!  I'm pretty sure we're closer to 3000 times on some things.....

 

Everything takes SO much longer to sink in than I think it should.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Exactly!  This is the heart of my frustration!  I'm pretty sure we're closer to 3000 times on some things.....

 

Everything takes SO much longer to sink in than I think it should.

 

Yep.  I feel your pain.  My older kid is 14.  He's the smartest dope I ever met.  LOL

[HS Mom in NC]

Thanks for the detailed commentary, HM in AZ.  In my defense ( ;) ), DS knows the expectations; I just didn't think y'all needed to know every detail to understand my frustration.

 

Some clarifications:

 

I do not have a set time limit for a shower.  But it seems pretty obvious that shampooing/washing/rinsing a single human body should not take 20 minutes. 

 

No, it doesn't take 20 minutes to clean a body, but plenty of people shower and bathe at least that long.  If you're having an ongoing problem with this, it's time to drop the assumption that it's obvious-especially to a teenager. Few things obvious to adults are obvious to teenagers. Clearly you need a specific time limit because I have no idea if 5, 10, or 15 minutes is acceptable to you and I'm engaged in the details of this.  Teenagers aren't.

I haven't given him a timer because I'm not usually in the vicinity when it rings - so it would be unenforceable.

 

I didn't mean the timer was for you, I meant it was for him.  I meant that you would be watching the clock to enforce but he would have a timer so he has no excuses for not knowing when a certain amount of time has passed. So you take into account time to undress + showering time (which he's keeping track of on the timer) +drying off time+ grooming time. 

  The only consequence to him is that he has less time to himself before bed - and sometimes he has to dry/clean the walls when the condensation is streaming down them.  I would think after so many years he could get himself down to a reasonable time (under 15 would be a good start) without my or DH's interference.  He does do it once in a while, usually when he's already in the doghouse, so I know it can be done if he wants to.  I like the questions you posed; maybe I'll try that. 

 

Then you should tell him he has 15 minutes showering time and if he goes over, what the consequences will be. You'll have to enforce that with clock watching because you can't set and limit and not enforce it and still expect a change in behavior.

 

Dishes - there are just too many dishes that make it to the drying rack with food still on them or slimy because he didn't rinse them.  There have been times when he has had to wash the same dishes 3 times before they could be put away.  It's just sloppy work.  The consequence there is that he doesn't get paid when the dishes aren't clean.

 

You're right.  He should be able to do it correctly the first time.  I would explain to my kid that if they can't manage to get it clean the first time then I'll have to treat them like they're 8 and watch them wash the dish, then they'll have to show it to me that it's been rinsed properly before they can put it in the drying rack, or they can do it right without me watching.  I would explain they have one more chance to get it right washing dishes or I supervise for a week.  My kids would insist they could do it right so they didn't have to have me watching them.  I would tell them thatthat's fine, but in the future if they can't do it right, they get my close supervision for a week-the choice is theirs. 

 

Laundry - he has his own full day to do laundry, and usually has only one load.  I write "laundry" on his list every week, so he knows it needs to be done even though I'm at work and can't remind him when it's time for the next step.  He'll get it in the washer in the morning, then forget about it (even when he's working 10 feet away) until late afternoon or even dinnertime when DH or I ask if his laundry's finished.  Or he'll get it through the dryer but then forget to put the clothes away.  Other times he manages to get it all done.  I don't care that it takes him 9 hours to get through all the steps as long as he gets them done - preferably without reminders from DH or me.

 

So do the buzzers work?  Can they be heard throughout the house? If one or both don't, then he needs a timer next to him that goes off in the amount of time it takes a load to finish.  My buzzers can't be heard throughout the house and everyone in my household does their own laundry.  I have a kitchen timer I set and keep in the room with me.  My husband has some sort of electronic thing in the laundry room linked to his cell phone that's set to beep in the amount of time it takes to complete the load.

 

Does he need a to do list that has to be checked off by the time you get home from work with predetermined, prediscussed consequences for not getting it done by then? Does his deadline need to be bedtime with consequences?  One problem with no deadlines is that some personality types just can't seem to get things done without them. Some people just can't manage to hear "Get the laundry done once a week" and have it done.  Does it matter to you which day?  If not, in his mind, he isn't missing a deadline if he doesn't have one.  "I'm gonna" is a chronic problem for many teenagers and adults.  They need a deadline.

 

If you think he shouldn't need reminding (and I agree) then don't remind him.  Discuss with him what exactly the expectations are (time limits in minutes, a list of chores and definite deadlines like a specific time or regular part of the day such as home from work and going to bed on a specific day) and that you won't be reminding him because he's not 8.  Tell him he'll have to write out a check list that you want to look at when he's done in case he forgot anything, you'll give him timer and what specific consequence will happen if it's done correctly on time.  Then enforce it every. single time.

 

I would ask questions to get the kid to write the to do list. "What are your chores?", "Write them down.",  "Do any of these chores have to be done in a particular order?", "Write them in that order."'  "When does each chore have to be done?", "Write that down.", " What are consequences for not getting them done correctly and on time?", "Write that down." ,  "Where is the best place for you to put this list so you can find it and use it every day?", "Go put it there."

 

 

I generally do not re-do his work for him.

 

Did I cover everything?

 

[SKL]

Smartest dope - I like that.  I can't believe how dense my smart kid can be sometimes.  :P

 

I think I'm more of a boot camp mama.  I can't deal with that every day, but every so often I get all militant and make them snap to it.  :P  Then they are good for a while, and some of it sticks, and some of it needs another boot camp!  :P

 

My two kids are also very different in their ability to change behavior and use common sense.  I can tell one kid something logical one time and never again.  The other one takes years to develop normal everyday habits.  I try to remind myself that as long as there is some progress, we're doing good.  :)

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think I'm more of a boot camp mama.  I can't deal with that every day, but every so often I get all militant and make them snap to it.  :p  Then they are good for a while, and some of it sticks, and some of it needs another boot camp!  :p

 

Ha! While I haven't done this in about a year, I have been known to announce in the morning that it is "Mommy boot camp" day after several days or weeks of especially bad behavior. I'll even have them sing, "Mommy boot camp is today. We will obey her right away!"

[kroe1]

There are a million ways to raise kiddos, most of which are the right way.