What do you think? (Kevin Leman and ADHD)

[hsing1]

I've just started reading "Have a New Kid by Friday" by Kevin Leman. I looked up ADHD in the index to get his thoughts. He basically states that in all his years as a psychologist he's never diagnosed any child as having ADD or ADHD. It appears to be a behavior problem based on poor parenting. He says something like it you want a child who behaves, then behave. If you want a child who can't sit still then don't sit still etc.

 

This really upset me. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[dawn of ns]

Well, the fact that he's never diagnosed a child with ADHD says nothing about ADHD or those children. It just says he doesn't diagnose ADHD and works with a whopping bias at play.

 

I wonder how many of the kids he didn't diagnose did gets diagnosed by other doctors later?

[Laurie4b]

Let's see. If he never diagnosed any child as ADHD, does that mean that there were no kids with ADHD who went to his practice? I would guess that the parents of kids with ADHD eventually took them elsewhere, probably with an additional burden of guilt to get rid of. I'm also guessing that those kids also felt worse about themselves--having had more fuel added to the fire of "You're just a bad kid." I don't meet the full criteria for ADHD myself, but I do have some of the traits, which I've worked on diligently for decades. Now I'm realizing that's just the way my brain is wired.

 

My kiddo with ADHD is not particularly poorly behaved. However, he gets really distracted and his impulsivity shows in subtle ways. Some of his ADHD characteristics might have been more pronounced if he had not had so much treatment for sensory processing disorder.

[Ottakee]

Haven't seen the book and likely don't want to read it.

 

I have 2 with ADD and 1 with ADHD (and 2 different sets of birth parents). In my girls' case they have mitochondrial mutations--POLG 1 which is associated with ADD/ADHD, mood disorders and a host of other medical issues. While it is not a TEST for ADHD (like a clear cut blood test) but it might be coming in the future.

 

Years ago seizures were very misunderstood but now with EEGs, MRIs, etc. they have medical proof it was not a character, spiritual, etc. issue but a real medical condition.

 

Now, there ARE kids out there that are misbehaving due to poor parenting, lack of schedule, exercise, good diet, good sleep habits, etc. but that does not mean that ALL kids who look like they are ADHD have poor parenting. Often parents of kids with ADD/ADHD struggle for years trying everything under the sun to help their child.

[MicheleB]

I think it's very unwise to make blanket, general statements about pretty much anything. I'm very surprised he's said this. :(

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

I agree and disagree. I'd say that some kids are born w/ a certain disposition that resembles what people lable as ADHD, and that it isn't the cause of poor parenting. However, I do agree that children w/ these issues can be taught limits. I also believe these children just need to learn how to work w/ their own gifts, just like the rest of us. Honestly, I think many people fall into the spectrum of ADHD. Blessings. (btw, I have an "Asperger" type boy)

[Harriet Vane]

Knowing a little boy with a full-blown and very genuine case of ADHD changed ALL my preconceptions about this disorder. I know his parents personally--they are loving and they are consistent with discipline. All the other kids in the family are calm and compliant.

 

We had an incident together that showed me clearly the reality this little boy lives with. I was caring for my friend's kids. We went together (me, my friends' kids, and my own two kids) on a long walk to the grocery store. This little boy was running, jumping, spastic. He had not tired out by the time we got to the store. As we walked down the aisles he continued to be totally spastic, while his sisters walked demurely behind. I kept up a continued litany of, "Don't touch that. Just walk please. Don't jump. . . "

 

Then I told this little boy he had to hold onto the cart to help him remember to walk nicely and not touch anything. He willingly and readily agreed/obeyed . . . for about thirty seconds. I redirected him to hold the cart three separate times, and each time he obeyed readily until he got distracted by something he wanted to see and touch thirty seconds later. He was jumpier than a toddler!! (He was 9yo at that time.)

 

Finally, I put his hand on the cart and put my hand over his and said, "I'm just going to hold me hand here on yours to help you remember to obey."

 

What happened next blew my mind.

 

He thanked me.

 

He looked absolutely relieved and grateful. He said, "Thank you for helping me." The poor boy didn't want to be in trouble, and he DID want, very badly, to obey. He just literally could NOT hold still.

 

There ARE bonafide cases. I don't have a high opinion of anyone arrogant enough to make blanket statements like that.

[CactusPair]

The old poor parenting argument, eh? How many times have I heard that?!

 

Misguided, unscientific, and hurtful to families who are struggling with very real challenges, imo.

[Michelle T]

I have no idea who Kevin Leman is, but he sounds like an idiot. Reminds me of the guy a few decades ago who concluded that autism is caused by the mother being "cold" and rejecting her child.

 

I've found that those who don't "believe" in ADHD just don't have a child who actually has it. If they did, they wouldn't question.

Michelle T

[flyingmommy]

Strider,

 

Just wanted to thank you for sharing that story. It really brought tears to my eyes. It reminded me so much of my nephew. I worry about him constantly. He is classic ADHD. His parents are trying to control it by diet right now, and it has helped, but not enough. They don't want to medicate him but I don't see that they'll have any choice. This child just cannot be still. He is constantly moving. As a baby, he was the lightest sleeper. I used to babysit him and it was really a nightmare. None of my children were like that so I was clueless and impatient. I have noticed when my nephew does something impulsive (which is often), he takes correction very well and is genuinely sorry for his action and truly wants to behave. He just has difficulty and needs a lot of help.

 

I know how tempting it is to blame things on bad parenting but that's a cop out made by self-righteous people who don't experience it first hand and have no compassion for others.

 

Prayers and good wishes for all parents out there struggling with challenging children!

 

J

[Harriet Vane]

Strider,

 

Just wanted to thank you for sharing that story. It really brought tears to my eyes. It reminded me so much of my nephew. I worry about him constantly. He is classic ADHD. His parents are trying to control it by diet right now, and it has helped, but not enough. They don't want to medicate him but I don't see that they'll have any choice. This child just cannot be still. He is constantly moving. As a baby, he was the lightest sleeper. I used to babysit him and it was really a nightmare. None of my children were like that so I was clueless and impatient. I have noticed when my nephew does something impulsive (which is often), he takes correction very well and is genuinely sorry for his action and truly wants to behave. He just has difficulty and needs a lot of help.

 

I know how tempting it is to blame things on bad parenting but that's a cop out made by self-righteous people who don't experience it first hand and have no compassion for others.

 

Prayers and good wishes for all parents out there struggling with challenging children!

 

J

 

:blush:

[elizam]

Thanks for warning me...I was thinking that might actually be a good book. Now I won't bother!

 

I have one ADHD child and probably another. John Rosemond's new book, Parenting by the Book, takes a similar stance. He basically says parents are the problem and that all these kids with ADHD< ODD< and even bipolar are just not parented correctly. :thumbdown: I should add that my oldest with ADHD is doing worse and was recently dxed with bipolar, which runs heavily in the family.

 

We are doing this book in Sunday School, and I am really, really struggling.

 

Making it worse is that my dh, who is in denial about a lot of things and never reads, is actually wanting to read this book (Rosemond's) and then pin all the blame on me.

[Plucky]

I have no idea who Kevin Leman is, but he sounds like an idiot. Reminds me of the guy a few decades ago who concluded that autism is caused by the mother being "cold" and rejecting her child.

 

I've found that those who don't "believe" in ADHD just don't have a child who actually has it. If they did, they wouldn't question.

Michelle T

 

Yep, that was me. Oh, the things we learn from experience. :001_huh:

[Kris]

Thanks for warning me...I was thinking that might actually be a good book. Now I won't bother!

 

Same here. I'm reading every book I can get my hands on. This one isn't worth the money or the time.

[Alice]

I haven't heard of or read the book. I do think ADD is overdiagnosed. I get a lot of kids sent to me by teachers or parents with a presumptive diagnosis of ADD that I think have other things going on (kid who is bored in class , learning disabilities, and yes...sometimes parents who can't discipline.) But ADD/ADHD absolutely really exsists. The most frustrating thing about the overdiagnosis and pressure to treat kids who don't have it is that it contributes to the idea in society that it's not a real diagnosis.

[dawn of ns]

I have one ADHD child and probably another. John Rosemond's new book, Parenting by the Book, takes a similar stance. He basically says parents are the problem and that all these kids with ADHD< ODD< and even bipolar are just not parented correctly. :thumbdown: I should add that my oldest with ADHD is doing worse and was recently dxed with bipolar, which runs heavily in the family.

 

We are doing this book in Sunday School, and I am really, really struggling.

 

Making it worse is that my dh, who is in denial about a lot of things and never reads, is actually wanting to read this book (Rosemond's) and then pin all the blame on me.

 

Balance it. I'm sure you could dig some books up from 20 or more years ago where people tried to pin the blame on moms for autism.

[klmama]

I do think his approach to discipline has some measure of helpfulness in it, although I didn't think it was specific enough. That's a common problem in his books, IMHO. I like him, but he's better at radio bites than fleshing out a full idea. I certainly disagree with him about the existence of ADHD.

 

Shortly after that I read How to Discipline Kids without Losing Their Love and Respect: An Introduction to Love and Logic by Jim Fay. This approach had some similarities to Lehman's, but it was much more honoring toward the children and was more specific in exactly what to say to them, IMHO. It's a very thin book, as it's just an introduction to Love and Logic, but I have found it to be very effective with all of my dc. I'd encourage you to read it, if you are looking for discipline help.

[cillakat]

Okay, he's a dumb*ss.

 

Aside from the mountains of other evidence, the brain scan differences are so freaking clear.

 

I have ADHD (inattentive type not hyperactive) and I can *feel* my prefrontal cortex not functioning the harder I try to concentrate. Adderall is amazing stuff.

 

I see it in my 9 yo too......when she tries hard, it works less. Adderall has been amazing for her.

 

K

[Guest brianlaws76]

I think I would tend to agree with Dr. Leman, and maybe go a further with it. I honestly don't think that ADD/ADHD is a 'disorder', but more of a condition.  Think about it for a minute with an open mind before you stop reading this post and simply respond negatively to me. The main problem that children with ADD/ADHD have is problems with focusing for extended periods of time. Did any of you know that decades ago (in the 40's and 50's), television production companies did their own studies on how to keep the attention of their viewers in order to keep them from changing the channels? Does anyone know what their conclusions were? They came up with the FACT that if a single scene or picture was on the screen for longer than 5-10 seconds, they would start to lose the interest of the viewer. Therefore, they concluded that in order to KEEP the viewer interested in their show, they needed to change the scene on the screen every 3-5 seconds in order to change the focus of the viewer and keep them watching the show.  Now think about that for a while.  And think about "Pavlov's dogs"....Hmmmmm...How early in their lives do most of us sit our children down in front of the 'electronic babysitter' and leave them there for hours at a time. The television is conditioning our children to continually change focus every 3-5 seconds for an average of 5-7 HOURS per day, 7 days per week, 52 weeks per year. Now, just what do you think is going to happen to that childs mind if you sit them in front of the TV starting around age 12-18 months? Now, along the same lines, it has also been proven that activities which force a child to focus his or her attention for extended periods - such as martial arts or learning to play a musical instrument - can dramatically reduce the signs and symptoms of ADD and ADHD, or even make them seem to disappear altogether. Why do you think that is? It's because you are conditioning their minds to focus properly. It's like programming a computer. The TV programs their brain to change focus every 3-5 seconds. And these activities are re-programming their brains to STAY focused on a single task.  

[WishboneDawn]

This is a ridiculously old post.

 

Nonetheless, I have no doubt that some kids have symptoms that mimic ADD because of excessive TV. Lots of things can cause symptoms that resemble ADD. That's generally the case with symptoms and simply because the symptoms for something like Lupus or Leukemia can mimic the flu that doesn't mean Lupus and Leukemia don't exist. Diagnosti criteria for ADD are fairly strict for exactly that reason, to exclude things like TV.

 

Anecdotally (and therefore somewhat uselessly) I grew up in the seventies and early eighties with two TV channels that were generally not on. I and both brothers were diagnosed with ADD. My mother is diagnosed and grew up without TV in the forties. My grandfather, a classic case of there ever was one, grew up before TV.

 

What you're speaking to is correlation. The labeling and diagnoses of ADD correlates with some very modern shifts in society. But ADD existed before those correlations and peoples` lives were affected by it before we recognized it.

 

I'd also like to point out that you're assessment of the attention problem in ADD folks is not accurate. I have an intense ability to focus for ling periods of time. The issue is generally that I and others with ADD often can't narrow that focus to one thing. Everything is of interest, eventing deserves attention and so, in the end, nothing gets our focus. It's not a problem of not enough focus but of a lack of a filter to determine what to focus on.

[Melly]

My dd has ADHD as does my dh.  My dd does not have behavior problems.  She went to private school this past year and NEVER got into trouble.  She was very well behaved and polite.  Now at home she will act out more but no more than any other child.

 

I too have that book and I don't think highly of Kevin Lehman.  I'm also geting my masters in SPED and I've seen a lot of kids in local schools who obviously have ADHD.  Just because he doesn't think it is real doesn't mean it isn't.

[nitascool]

Both my older two boys have a dx of add and adhd. We did not have a television in the house for the first four years of my oldest sons life and my second son did not watch a single television show until he was 3 and then it was less then an hour a week until he was 6. My youngest two have been watching television since they were 2 with an average consumption of 4 to 5 hours a week until age 5 when they began watching an average of 8 to 10 hours a week. My younger two do not have a dx of ADD or ADHD.

 

My oldest who was born prematurely is gifted/ADD and has a significantly lower processing speed and working memory then any other score on his IQ more then 30% points lower then his age peers. These two areas of deficit is what is showing up as ADD for him. He is also deficient in vitamins and minerals and is in the 1st % for height and weight for his age.

 

My second son who was also premature and deprived of oxygen at birth was first dxed with ADHD and SPD at age 6 and ASD at age 9 is more of a classic ADHD behaviorally. He is not a defiant boy though. He is reckless and has little impulse control. He bites, and that is his biggest "defiant" behavior (he has PICA). He is quick to obey, he is equally as quick to forget that he was just told to stop jumping or running or whatever. His scores had him in the 1% for processing speed and working memory, so he is significantly impaired in those areas.

 

When he was 5 I told him to stop jumping on the couch. He did as I told him, then he got back on the couch and started jumping again. I asked him why he had disobeyed me and he said, "I thought you meant just for that second, not for the whole minute." I told him for the whole day, and he said, "Mommy that's an unrealistic goal for me, can we shoot for five minutes instead." This is how an ADHD mind works. It works in 1 minute and 5 minute stints not in whole days. Once I realized that my ability to teach my son obedience and right behavior changed a great deal. Now at 11 I don't have to tell him not to jump on the furniture. Had I disciplined as disobedience instead of redirecting as a lack of impulse control and bad working memory each time he did what I'd told him not to I'd be grayer, he'd be anxious and our family would be filled with sorrow.

 

Sometimes you just have to do what works for your family even when the "experts" say it's not the right way.

[Heathermomster]

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