Making decisions for high school -- so many choices

[Haiku]

I have a high school planning sheet roughed out (with her input) for my dd, who will be in 9th grade in the fall. We have an idea of the classes she wants to take.

 

But I am overwhelmed with the choices for actually implementing it. There are online classes, AP classes, DE, home classes, etc. I feel like I have to be the "guidance counselor" and help figure out what classes she should be taking and how to accomplish them, but I don't really know how to plan for what would be the most advantageous way to structure high school.

 

Could people share with me how you made the decisions you made on how to accomplish the various classes your dc took, whether you did them at home or outsourced them in some way?

 

One concrete question I have: what is the advantage of an AP class over just doing a dual enrollment class? It seems to me, with AP, that you basically take a college-level class but whether or not you get credit comes down to a test score, unlike a DE class. Is that an accurate understanding?

[wapiti]

One concrete question I have: what is the advantage of an AP class over just doing a dual enrollment class? It seems to me, with AP, that you basically take a college-level class but whether or not you get credit comes down to a test score, unlike a DE class. Is that an accurate understanding?

 

There was a thread on this just recently... here:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/587760-high-school-track-questions/ and also this older one - there are lots of older threads, each with its own angle.

 

My impression is that AP/DE is not important for college admissions purposes if the student is not shooting for selective schools.  The more selective the schools, the more important AP/DE would be, and in increasing numbers.

 

If selective schools are on the table, also plan for SAT2 tests (subject tests).

 

If I were homeschooling, in the big picture, I might make two or three lists - subjects where I want to check the box, subjects where I want rigor but my student isn't going to like it, and subjects where I want to take advantage of all the flexibility that homeschooling offers for a rigorous, deep, interesting education, possibly with a special/different approach.  There you have it, my two inexperienced, irrelevant cents :)

Edited March 4, 2016 by wapiti

[NCMom]

 

 

My impression is that AP/DE is not important for college admissions purposes if the student is not shooting for selective schools.  The more selective the schools, the more important AP/DE would be, and in increasing numbers.

 

 

I do not agree. I do not think it is imperative to have either of these; my oldest got in everywhere he applied with neither DE nor AP.

 

But, for homeschoolers, DE/AP scores give the school, no matter selectivity, something besides mommy grades to use as confirmation that the student is capable of college level work.  Not all schools just go off test scores and not all students have tippy-top test scores. 

 

For youngest DD, who is an average tester,  DE is proving very helpful. 

 

 

ymmv,

Georgia

[Haiku]

I graduated sixth in a class of 450 with an extremely high GPA, and I did two years of community college. There was a lot of turmoil in my life when I graduated high school, and going away to college was not working out for me then. Not going to a 4-year university for four years didn't hinder me at all.

 

In fact, when we were encouraging our oldest dd to start at CC, she told my mother that the CC was for dumb kids. You can imagine how pleased my mother, who got her nursing degree there, was to hear this.  :laugh:

 

DD does want to go to a four-year school right off (in fact, she knows exactly which one and exactly why she wants to go there!), but I would not be disappointed if she ended up starting at the CC. My diploma says [insert Name Here] University, not [insert Name Here] Community College, iykwim.

 

DD does want to take some DE classes. She has expressed interest in Latin, Italian, and Computer Science courses. Hopefully we can participate in our state's tuition-free DE program.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

One concrete question I have: what is the advantage of an AP class over just doing a dual enrollment class? It seems to me, with AP, that you basically take a college-level class but whether or not you get credit comes down to a test score, unlike a DE class. Is that an accurate understanding?

 

The advantage for us is not needing to drive to campus. (An online DE class would be more of a possibility.) Our schedule is tight. Our commutes are long enough. We don't need to add more driving. 

 

Beyond that, there is more flexibility and more grace. An oops with an AP class doesn't carry the long-term repercussions of an oops with a DE class. That DE grade will stay on the record forever.

 

AP feels more transitional for us. It's a good fit for right now. 

 

My daughter takes AP classes when they are the best fit of the available options. She is not trying to accrue college credit. That is only a bonus. If she ends up not doing well on the AP exam, we'll still be glad she took the class. If she can't find a testing spot, she will take the SAT II, if there is one. Actually an AP class is also good prep for the SAT Subjects tests. She'll probably take those whether or not she takes the AP Exam.    

 

If the AP Exam isn't an option she might possibly take the CLEP, if there is a reason.

 

At this point, I expect she will only have a handful of APs and a couple DE classes. Time will tell...

 

 

(Edited to add left out word.)

Edited February 27, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

DD does want to take some DE classes. She has expressed interest in Latin, Italian, and Computer Science courses. Hopefully we can participate in our state's tuition-free DE program.

 

Our DE options aren't as enticing as some other states.  I might be easily swayed if we lived elsewhere...  ;)

[Luckymama]

Being the guidance counselor is one of the hardest aspects of homeschooling high school.

 

Everyone has different reasons for the choices they make. I read and researched a lot before and during planning for dd. In fact, I just spent the last two hours researching colleges.

 

I'll share our story:

 

First of all, when homeschooling high school first appeared as an option, I told dd and dh that outsourcing English and foreign language would be non-negotiable. I knew my limits. Dh said the finances would work out.

 

Dd and I discussd what she would need to study in order to be attractive to colleges and scholarships. My list was 4 each of English, math, science, history/social sciences, and foreign language. I explained the different types of electives--the arts classes, academic electives (like wanting to double-up on science like her brother did or English like her sister did), and other electives like culinary or tech etc. I told her that I wanted her to take 6 credits a year. She could study one or more over the summers if she wished (and she has).

 

We discussed typical progressions in math (this was when she was All Math All The Time), what science options she could choose from (not just bio/chem/physics but geology, astronomy, environmental...), and what social sciences were out there (she had no idea!). Her mind was set on Arabic for foreign language.

 

Dd was familiar with APs because of her older siblings. I told her that she'd need to demonstrate competency through APs or SAT subject tests or university classes for college admissions. I wanted her to have one of those for each of the 5 main academic areas and that we'd figure it out as we went along. I did insist on either AP English Language or AP English Lit instead of using a subject test or university class for English.

 

As for AP vs dual enrollment for our situation:

 

We have to pay full price for Arabic classes at the University of Our State. The CC and other area universities do not have Arabic. The U is within walking distance. It did not make sense for dd to take a second class at the CC or NearbyCity U, both a good 30+ minutes drive, breaking up our day even more. And frankly, the coursework available at the CC and NearbyCityU is below the level of what I can teach.

 

We are using the AP classes (I plan/teach all but English) to demonstrate dd's academic work with the scores to verify my grades. The classes/scores will make her more competitive for admissions and for scholarship monies. I know the type of student she will be competing against. I know what their schools are like. Dd knows how much money we can contribute to college how much merit miney she will need to get to attend some schools on her current list. She's not applying to super-selective universities but to super-selective programs within those universities.

 

It helps that dd is interested in so many things. AP Psych, the two AP Governments, AP Human Geography, the two AP Economics, and AP Environmental allign with her future coursework in International Relations/Studies :)

[wapiti]

I think I misinterpreted the context (under-caffeinated :)).  The issue is credit rather than admissions?  Or both?  You have a huge planning advantage if you know the specific school your dd hopes to attend - the website should detail what credit might be available for DE vs AP, and if it doesn't, you can call and ask.

 

On the admissions side, if your dd might end up with stats appropriate for selective schools, you might want to leave doors open for changing goals (that's what I'm trying to do anyway LOL - the goals seem to change daily around here).

 

Having already identified three possible DEs, it sounds like your planning is in great shape!

Edited February 27, 2016 by wapiti

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

If I were homeschooling, in the big picture, I might make two or three lists - subjects where I want to check the box, subjects where I want rigor but my student isn't going to like it, and subjects where I want to take advantage of all the flexibility that homeschooling offers for a rigorous, deep, interesting education, possibly with a special/different approach.  There you have it, my two inexperienced, irrelevant cents :)

 

Excellent advice! 

 

Once we started taking this approach, many issues suddenly disappeared.

[chiguirre]

I am basically in the same place you are- we are simply starting a lot of her 9th grade work now, with the exception of the outsourced classes that won't start until August. I will say for us, a lot of it comes down to finances. Which classes we can afford to have her take with the homeschool group or online- there was a limit- and I worked with her to prioritize what she really wanted to do as a group or an online live class, versus what she was comfortable with doing with me at home. We have also had to be very fluid as some of the classes we had planned on outsourcing didn't materialize- case in point- ICP.

 

My dd is also hoping to CLEP several classes (like US history) so for those, she is taking the classes at home or simply online (read not excessively expensive live classes). We aren't worrying about DE right now- I am leaving those for jr or senior year and who knows what her interests and wants will be at that point.

 

ETA- we are not shooting for a 4 year university immediately. With three kids our goal is to have them graduate with none of us incurring any debt. Dd is also young and after watching the graduation rates of my friends and their kids who straightaway shipped off to 4 year institutions, we have made the decision for our kids to first attend jr college before transferring as a sophomore or junior to another school. I don't think that's a popular course of action around these boards so our approach may be a little lacking for some.

TM33, have you checked out the DE offered by your local CC district? Some districts have very generous arrangements for homeschoolers. For example, in North Harris/Montgomery County (Lone Star CC) you can take 3 classes each semester your jr and sr years. You do have to pay fees and buy books, but tuition is free. The credits transfer to any public university in Texas and some private ones as well. You can also manage to take all your general education requirements and be "Core Complete". That means that you are exempt from all the Texas Core requirements at any public university in Texas, whether or not they line up exactly with the requirements at your local CC. Most core classes are very similar to required high school classes (math, English comp, lab sciences, American history, government, foreign language) so you can use them to round out your curriculum at a very attractive price. Quality can vary across community colleges, but Texas does impose requirements for courses to meet the transfer criteria so there is basic quality control.

 

TBH, I'm happy that the core requirements are so clear and straight forward. It makes the last two years of high school easy to plan. If only if was so easy to decide what to do in 9th and 10th grade. There are so many awesome possibilities and so little time....

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Oh the changes! Keeping doors open is my biggest goal and concern. In the last three months dd has changed so much and grown up so much, I cannot even imagine where we will be in two years!

 

This is soooo tricky! Sometimes keeping one door open closes another. It's nearly impossible to keep them all open...

 

Decisions, decisions...

[DebbS]

The advantage of an AP class over dual enrollment, if you are attending them in person, is that your younger teen won't be in a class with 19+ year olds. Whether this is an issue or not often depends on the subject of the course and the maturity needed for the material and whether your child is comfortable in that environment.  With online courses, those may or may not be issues. We held off on dual credit until my daughter was a senior. My son didn't dual credit at all.

 

Another option is to plan a course as preparation for the AP test without it being an official AP course. This is often a less expensive route. We did several courses this way. If my kids got 4s or 5s on the AP test (which they did on all of them that they took), I designated the course as honors.  In addition, their honors courses were all taught at college level, so the AP tests were mainly to prove that.  Once they hit their senior years and I had to send transcripts prior to the test, I just made my best guess whether they were prepared or not. The advantage of this was that it was a cheaper way to get the honors weighting on the transcript and the college credit with the added benefit that  we could wait until closer to the end of the course to decide if an AP test would be doable. In addition, the at home AP option, allows you to take a whole year (or even more) to prepare for the AP tests rather than having to cram it all in to a one semester dual credit course.

 

Our approach with APs was mostly to give our kids the education that we wanted to give them and then to see what APs might work as we moved along. We took the 4 year classical approach to do history and literature with a lot of writing involved. By  the end of that they were prepared for both the AP European History, the AP World History, the AP Literature and the AP English Language tests. We didn't plan them with AP criteria in mind but rather picked up the AP study guides somewhere near the time that we would have to sign up to determine which tests they were ready for. They also took a few courses that interested them with the AP tests in mind after spending a year on a subject. Those include Human Geography for my son and Music Theory for my daughter.

Edited February 27, 2016 by DebbS

[Haiku]

In the last three months dd has changed so much and grown up so much, I cannot even imagine where we will be in two years!

 

This is part of what makes it so frustrating. How can we plan for something that won't even happen until almost another quarter of dd's life has gone by? 

 

I look at the admissions requirements for the university dd wants to go to, which is well-regarded if not super elite, and they seem very reasonable and don't give me cause for concern. But then I read in other places that dd won't be competitive unless she racks up all kinds of extra stuff, and I get confused and unsure of how to proceed.

[wapiti]

If this is a highly-selective school, you might find this blog post helpful:  http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/applying_sideways.  The general idea involves great academic stats as a minimum (I would include some number of AP/DE here) combined with significant depth in area(s) of interest.  That latter criterium is where the flexibility of homeschooling has an enormous advantage over B&M school.

 

You can also look at the specific school's discussion forum over at College Confidential.  There are often discussions detailing the accomplishments of students admitted, though it is hard to say how accurately individual posts represent the admitted pool - sometimes grains of salt may be involved, or maybe not.  "How many" AP/DE would be necessary is something I've seen some disagreement about.  I have never searched for a common data set so I don't know whether those include numbers of APs, but that would definitely be something to look at.

 

Another, more delicate operation may be (1) getting your dd to understand realistic expectations with regard to the school's admissions rate and (2) helping your dd identify the many other options out there and the importance of considering several other schools, the more selective the schools, the wider the net, perhaps.

[JanetC]

Back to the original topic: How to make so many decisions?

 

1. Try not to give any one decision more time than it's worth. If you have a great DE and a great AP option, and it's so hard to tell the difference between the two, then deciding between the two of them randomly or arbitrarily is OK. You really can't go wrong either way.

 

2. Try to outsource decisions: If you've narrowed it down to 2 or 3 good ideas, let your child make the final choice.

 

3. Stay true to your child's unique road to success: My artist would not belong in AP Chemistry, even if "everybody else" applying to College X has it. Trying to make a kid someone they're not, just to please a college, is not worth it. There is a college out there to fit everyone. Really. Go read the acceptance list on the College Board right now, kids are getting into great colleges that you have never even heard of. (And, there will be another round of acceptances in March, so come back again later, too.)

[Haiku]

Trying to make a kid someone they're not, just to please a college, is not worth it. 

 

I had a hiccup, after I read the 9th grade planning thread, where I kind-of (but not really) panicked about the fact that dd just-turned-14-about-5-minutes-ago isn't ready to take 3 APs and 2 DE classes. I had to talk myself down and realize that dd is who she is, and she's where she is right now, and that's fine.

 

She has lofty goals, and I feel responsible for helping her reach them, but in the end, it's up to her to take control of her own future. I hope to help her gradually assume more control as she gets older and more experienced with high school.

[chiguirre]

I had a hiccup, after I read the 9th grade planning thread, where I kind-of (but not really) panicked about the fact that dd just-turned-14-about-5-minutes-ago isn't ready to take 3 APs and 2 DE classes. I had to talk myself down and realize that dd is who she is, and she's where she is right now, and that's fine.

 

 

If you think about it, most AP exams build on a knowledge base that takes years to accumulate. You're not going to do an AP foreign language or Calc BC or AP Lit without years of prior classes that build to that point. Unless you're many standard deviations off the mean, that's not going to happen in 9th grade. And that's totally fine.

 

There are some APs that are content subjects that you can master in a year. You can do Human Geography in 9th grade if you can write a decent free response. World History is totally doable. You might notice that these conform to the typical high school social studies sequence. However, these are the APs that may not be all that useful for obtaining college credits. How many intro history credits can you really use in college? 1 or 2? You don't need AP Geo, AP World History, AP European History and APUSH. Pick one or two, or none, and do a great books sequence or big history or Japanese medieval history if you want. Or DE your jr or sr year. It'll be fine.

 

Science is a little trickier, but realistically, it's almost impossible to do more than 2 well even if you start your high school science early. And your student might not want to do bio, chem or physics. They might want to do geology or astronomy or A&P. You can do those instead, it'll be fine.

 

IMHO, AP exams are a stamp of rigor designed for b&m schools. Homeschoolers can use them to demonstrate rigor, but we're not under the same pressure to do 10 APs because they're the "most rigorous course" available. If you don't want to do geography in 9th grade, ditch it and do something else. That something else is the "most rigorous option" in your school. Taking an AP (or DE) English is not as optional because you will want to demonstrate rigor. But that's only one class. You can do interesting, off the beaten path things the other years as long as your student is building their reading and writing skills.

 

I've spent a ton of time researching college requirements, what public schools offer and how AP/DE work because it fascinates me. I enjoy it. But I've come to the conclusion that there are lots of paths to get where you want to go. Some schools are incredibly hard to get into, but there is no sure path to Harvard no matter what a student or their parents do. You've just got to let that go and plan to do your best and be prepared for selective, but not lottery, schools. Or, if that's not in the cards, look at the paths that are open locally.

 

I've been doing the high end academic stuff for T while I've been looking at job training for Geezle and the same sorts of questions and concerns pop up, as weird as that may seem. What if we do everything right and the student just doesn't do quite well enough for their top objective? Well, the only thing you can do is have a plan b and a plan c.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm in the same place too.  Seems overwhelming doesn't it?!

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think I've mostly solidified the plans at least for 9th.  For some subjects I have a somewhat big picture plan.  But gee stuff can change.  You don't know.  I am probably having him take SAT subject tests, but probably no AP.  I guess because I don't see the benefit of AP (someone enlighten me if I'm wrong).  He will take some courses at the CC (is taking one now in fact).  Beyond that, I don't know.  The regs here are a pain so on top of that I have to pay attention to that part.

 

I even toyed with a completely different idea today after listening to a mother talk about her daughter taking the TASC when she was 16.  She was having trouble at school (not academically) and just wanted to be out of there so she took the TASC (like the GED) and matriculated at the CC.  That sounds very appealing to me because my kid is itching to be done and move on.  He can get financial aid too.  As of now...no financial aid so I'm limited in terms of the number of courses I can pay for.  The CCs are very affordable, decent, and have tons of agreements for transferring to the state Unis. 

 

 

[The Governess]

I'm not there yet, but I've been thinking about this. I have different goals depending on the subject:

 

1) Foreign language (this may include computer science)- we will go with an AP approach through online classes, followed by DE if she wants to study beyond AP level

2) Math - AP - there are good options for this and dd is a self-starter in this subject

3) Science - DE - I am just not good at following through with science labs, I think being in an actual class with lab would be the best choice here

4) Humanities - great books approach, so no AP, and likely done at home with some sort of class for discussion

 

Another factor is that DE classes are generally one semester long, rather than one year long. So the schedule is more intense. This is one reason why I am going the AP route for math. Science, on the other hand, could end up being one intense lab class first semester, followed by something lighter second semester, or even an elective of some sort in it's place. I wouldn't want to take long breaks from math or language, but I think for science this might work.

Edited February 27, 2016 by lovelearnandlive

[DebbS]

I had a hiccup, after I read the 9th grade planning thread, where I kind-of (but not really) panicked about the fact that dd just-turned-14-about-5-minutes-ago isn't ready to take 3 APs and 2 DE classes. I had to talk myself down and realize that dd is who she is, and she's where she is right now, and that's fine.

 

She has lofty goals, and I feel responsible for helping her reach them, but in the end, it's up to her to take control of her own future. I hope to help her gradually assume more control as she gets older and more experienced with high school.

 

From my experience (I've graduated one who's now in college and one who is a senior accepted into college), you don't have to go as heavy on academics as you often read about in this forum. What I was told by several admissions people is that since the AP/SAT tests proved some of their grades, they assumed that the other ones not proven were accurate also. So, I learned that testing for some subjects was good enough. The other thing is that we didn't try to get college credit for every course because it really is okay for a highschool student to do highschool level work. Especially in 9th grade. We started 9th grade with one AP/honors class. By 12th, about 1/3  to 1/2 of their credits were honors or dual-credit. That was good enough for admissions and merit aid and they also had lives outside of academics.

 

When planning for highschool, just make sure that you hit the core requirements at the high school level and then see which ones you and your student want to make more rigorous. Sometimes, that happens naturally, without an AP/honors plan, simply because your student is more interested in the subject and wants to delve in deeper.

[regentrude]

We made the decision to do home taught classes for subjects I can do better than the outsourced options or where I prefer a specific nontraditional approach, and dual enrollment at the local four year university for what I cannot teach or what is of high interest for DD.

We did history and most of English at home because we wanted integrated, great books based, self designed. Math was done at home because math with AoPS textbooks was vastly better than what we would have gotten had we outsourced math.

DD took 32 college credits between 10th and 12th grade; five semesters of French, 3 semesters of physics, 2 semesters of English:.French because I cannot teach that at home at this level; Physics and English because she wanted to.

 

DD thrives in a live classroom with a teacher and class mates, so DE was perfect for her. OTOH, she gets very stressed about tests, which meant that AP exams would have added unnecessary stress.

She had no interest in online classes.

 

With DS we do things in a similar fashion. He is currently taking his first DE class; we will add more in 12th grade. No interest in online classes or AP exams.

 

FWIW, none of DD's college credits transferred to her college. DS is not looking at highly selective schools, so I imagine some of his credits will transfer.

Edited February 27, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

The advantage of an AP class over dual enrollment, if you are attending them in person, is that your younger teen won't be in a class with 19+ year olds. Whether this is an issue or not often depends on the subject of the course and the maturity needed for the material and whether your child is comfortable in that environment. 

 

For us, being in a classroom with 19+ year old students was a definite advantage, because DD always related better to people a few years older than her and never meshed with same age peers. She took her first college class for credit at age 14 and formed very close friendships with girls who were college juniors and seniors.

She never had any issues because of her age - other than some funny situations like the time a male classmate asked for her number so they could study together, and when it came out in the course of the conversation that she was 15, he immediately backed off in shock. We had a few god laughs. Oh, and she had to keep quiet about her age while working at the tutoring center... so the 20 year old STEM students did not have to feel bad that a 15 y/o was tutoring them in calculus based physics.

For her, being in the environment with all older students was fantastic and exactly what she needed.

[AEC]

 

1) Language (this may include computer science)- 

 

Totally in favor of doing programming in HS - but IMO it's a REAL stretch to call it language and use it as a substitute for English composition or lit.  Programming languages are just not natural languages.  

 

Especially if you get beyond 'just programming' and learn about information theory or similar I think it's totally reasonable to call it a science credit, but I expect you'll get a lot of pushback about 'language'.

[The Governess]

Totally in favor of doing programming in HS - but IMO it's a REAL stretch to call it language and use it as a substitute for English composition or lit. Programming languages are just not natural languages.

 

Especially if you get beyond 'just programming' and learn about information theory or similar I think it's totally reasonable to call it a science credit, but I expect you'll get a lot of pushback about 'language'.

I have absolutely no intention of using computer programming as substitute for English. When I say language I am referring to foreign language. My categories are just the way I am grouping subjects as a way of deciding what path to pursue -AP vs DE vs other approach, not how I would be assigning credits. I am lumping computer science with foreign language because they seem similar to me in terms of how the student would interact with the material - learning grammar/syntax and developing fluency, etc.

 

ETA: I edited my previous post for clarity.

Edited February 27, 2016 by lovelearnandlive

[Brad S]

Oh the changes! Keeping doors open is my biggest goal and concern. In the last three months dd has changed so much and grown up so much, I cannot even imagine where we will be in two years!

 

Yes and yes.  It's all quite a challenge.  One thing that helped me keep some balance (with both academics and real life) was to set some goals.  I wrote down ours here, somewhat edited to make them less specific to our situation: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/588582-setting-high-school-goals/?p=6860378

 

[Lilaclady]

Totally in favor of doing programming in HS - but IMO it's a REAL stretch to call it language and use it as a substitute for English composition or lit. Programming languages are just not natural languages.

 

Especially if you get beyond 'just programming' and learn about information theory or similar I think it's totally reasonable to call it a science credit, but I expect you'll get a lot of pushback about 'language'.

I was actually informed today that there are some states that accepts computer science to fulfill a foreign language requirement. Most accept it as a math or science.

[DebbS]

I have absolutely no intention of using computer programming as substitute for English. When I say language I am referring to foreign language. My categories are just the way I am grouping subjects as a way of deciding what path to pursue -AP vs DE vs other approach, not how I would be assigning credits. I am lumping computer science with foreign language because they seem similar to me in terms of how the student would interact with the material - learning grammar/syntax and developing fluency, etc.

 

ETA: I edited my previous post for clarity.

 

I majored in computer science in college and am a working systems analyst.  Programming languages and foreign languages are not in any way similar. 

[AEC]

I was actually informed today that there are some states that accepts computer science to fulfill a foreign language requirement. Most accept it as a math or science.

 

I am TOTALLY shocked to hear that.  They are not, as another posted mentioned, in any way similar. <shrug>

[DebbS]

I am TOTALLY shocked to hear that.  They are not, as another posted mentioned, in any way similar. <shrug>

 

I did a little bit of research on this. It looks like there are a few states that have introduced bills to make it so, but only one state has actually passed it.  And no - I didn't find it in the Onion! I double checked. One thing is very clear - the politicians that are backing this have absolutely no programming background. And from what I can tell, colleges aren't in agreement with this idea at all. So, personally, I think it would be foolish to limit a childs future by pinning hopes on such a nonsensical change in core requirements.

Edited February 28, 2016 by DebbS

[Tsuga]

It is an interesting thought though to consider how many people we know who took two years of foreign language in public high school (just about everyone even back from my parents day), yet how many people can speak or even read anything of a foreign language from those classes five years out? But people who learned programming in high school seem to retain it perhaps more...makes me wonder which is more useful.

 

Or which is easier. I generally take about two years of immersion to speak a human language fluently. It takes me about three months to become more or less fluent skilled in a programming language. Edit: highly skilled is going too far... however it took me much less time to be understood in a programming language, than a human language.

 

Computer programming languages are EASIER to remember because they are easier.

 

The vocabulary is hundreds of times smaller. The grammar is so much simpler I can't even describe it in quantitative terms.

 

Computer science goes beyond the language, of course. I'm not implying that programming itself is easy. But human languages are just hard.

 

Also, I use French more than BASIC so I remember French. It's true that travel is expensive, but if you want to work in international milieus, those languages will help in the long run.

 

Also, to add my voice to DebbS: I majored in philosophy and classics. I studied French in HS, Latin and Greek in college, and then Russian, French, Persian and German as an adult. I learned BASIC to a very basic (no pun intended) level as an elementary school child, I learned HTML (a scripting language) to make webpages with forms and layouts, graphics, etc. in college on my own, and now regularly use two programming languages, also in analytics but I do a bit of database management because, well, it is a long story.

 

I think I am qualified to comment on the subject of programming languages as a language. They are not like human languages. They are artificial codes made to communicate with non-intelligent systems (computers). True, they are "languages" but not really--computers don't have tongues. They only go one way. Answers to my code are not given to me in code. When I use code to try to bring back an empty set, I don't get that response in code. I just get a response in English, an error message or whatever.

 

Even if it were allowed, it would be doing a child a disservice, to teach them programming languages in lieu of human languages. Learning Russian, German, or Mandarin (in which many CS papers are published) would be much more prudent. At least, learning Hindi, Latin, Greek or even Spanish (not highly related to CS) would be in my opinion much wiser.

 

OP, I don't envy you and good luck!

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tsuga

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is an interesting thought though to consider how many people we know who took two years of foreign language in public high school (just about everyone even back from my parents day), yet how many people can speak or even read anything of a foreign language from those classes five years out? But people who learned programming in high school seem to retain it perhaps more...makes me wonder which is more useful.

 

I might get flamed, but this is why I think two years of a foreign language in high school and/or college is completely pointless.   Unless someone is very motivated and can spend some time immersed in the language they won't learn much. And then if they stop using it, poof all that is gone rather quickly.  Most people I know have studied some sort of foreign language at some point and none of them can still speak it (if they ever actually spoke it at all).  

 

My husband is fluent in English (he is from Germany), but he studied it for 12 years and started very young.  And of course as an adult he was immersed in it.  His brother doesn't speak much English because he doesn't use it that much.  He does well enough to e-mail with me, which I do think is pretty impressive (although he also studied Latin for years and teaches Latin so that helps). 

[Haiku]

I might get flamed, but this is why I think two years of a foreign language in high school and/or college is completely pointless.   

 

I agree that how we teach languages in the United States is stupid (and I think it comes from our core belief that, regardless of the lip service we give to the value of foreign language, we know English, so we're good; if we really believed in the value of foreign languages, we'd start them when kids were in 4th grade and go through high school), but I also feel that my two years of high school and one year of college German were beneficial. I learned more about English grammar, I learned about German history and culture (which is useful from a horizons-broadening aspect if for nothing else), I read works by people with a different cultural starting point, and I discovered just how much reality is shaped by language and how much people's experience of life is influenced by their ability to speak, write, and think about it.

 

Do I still speak German? Not really, but I can read passably well, and knowing German helped me learn Flemish (which I do still speak), and it has helped me with Latin because I have a better understanding of inflection.

 

At the very least, requiring two years of language in high school might spark an interest in a student who otherwise wouldn't have been exposed.

 

I just wish we took language instruction seriously in the States.

[DebbS]

I might get flamed, but this is why I think two years of a foreign language in high school and/or college is completely pointless.   Unless someone is very motivated and can spend some time immersed in the language they won't learn much. And then if they stop using it, poof all that is gone rather quickly.  Most people I know have studied some sort of foreign language at some point and none of them can still speak it (if they ever actually spoke it at all).  

 

 

 

For a lot of kids it is pointless. Mine were not interested in languages in highschool at all so we took the easier route with Rosetta Stone Homeschool. Now that may daughter has decided to major in voice and has to sing in German, Italian and French she has become more interested in languages. The Rossetta Stone Spanish helped her quite a bit with the Italian songs. And now she will learn more languages in college and actually have use for them. My son is taking ASL as his foreign language in college and since he likes to work with his hands, he enjoys learning it.

 

I am not entirely against dropping the 2 year foreign language requirement for highschool. I do think it's good to expose kids to a foreign language because it may turn out that they have a knack for it. My daughter has a friend who can speak on 3 foreign languages and she's only 16. So, maybe for some kids, 1 year for discovery would be a good requirement for revealing a natural talent and interest.

 

That said, I see no logic in calling a programming language a foreign language because it simply is not. I have programmed in something like 15 languages. It takes me about a day of programming to do this decently and a few weeks to know the language so well  that I think through a project using that language construct.  It's just not the same thing as a foreign language.

 

[wapiti]

My two cents on the language discussion:  reasons for learning a foreign language, e.g. communication, learning English grammar better, even simply exposure to another culture, don't apply to programming languages.  IMO, the comparison does not work.  I think of CS as a subset of mathematics.

 

(I do remember more Spanish and Latin than the COBOL and Pascal I learned back in the Dark Ages...)  My ds13s are learning how to make websites in HTML in a class at school.  They just signed up for next year's courses, including beginning a foreign lang, and the one who is more into programming I encouraged to try Mandarin.

Edited February 28, 2016 by wapiti

[AngieW in Texas]

There are no advantages for AP over DE where I live. The advantages all go the other way.

 

When you do AP, everything rides on that one test on that one day. With DE, you have the entire semester. DE also gives you experience dealing with a college environment. My kids all really enjoyed their cc experiences.

 

My community college district allows high school 11th and 12th graders to take up to two classes each semester at the cc at no charge. You have to pay for books and supplies, but that's it. My kids got great classes just for the cost of the textbooks (mostly rented). It was even possible to walk to the cc (although it was 3 miles away, so it would have been quite a walk). We did have to pay for the additional courses that my oldest took, but that was it.

 

My oldest did no AP. She did 45 credits at the cc. She went to university for 2.5 years, but changed her major twice, so she is still 9 classes short of any degree. She no longer really knows what she wants to do, so she is reverse transferring her credits back to the cc to get an AS general studies degree.

 

My middle dd did one AP (Physics B). She only did the AP because the other student I was teaching with her wanted to take the AP test. She earned 35 credits at the cc through dual credit, all of which were accepted. She will be graduating with her BS in May after just 6 semesters in college. She never took more than 5 classes in any one semester.

 

My youngest dd has done no AP tests. She has taken fewer DE courses than my other kids did because she has health issues and has learning disabilities that make everything harder for her. She will still be graduating high school with 19 credits. The university that she is most likely to go to (private school, out of state) has already told her that they will give her credit for 15 of those 19 hours.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I might get flamed, but this is why I think two years of a foreign language in high school and/or college is completely pointless.   Unless someone is very motivated and can spend some time immersed in the language they won't learn much. And then if they stop using it, poof all that is gone rather quickly.  Most people I know have studied some sort of foreign language at some point and none of them can still speak it (if they ever actually spoke it at all).  

 

My husband is fluent in English (he is from Germany), but he studied it for 12 years and started very young.  And of course as an adult he was immersed in it.  His brother doesn't speak much English because he doesn't use it that much.  He does well enough to e-mail with me, which I do think is pretty impressive (although he also studied Latin for years and teaches Latin so that helps). 

 

I agree, I don't think there is any way to achieve fluency without immersion. But I don't know if it's completely pointless - immersion learning is a lot easier if you have some basic vocab and grasp of grammar, IME. So what I'm hoping is that the 2 years/semesters of introduction to the language will give dd a good foundation for study abroad or some other form of immersion if she wants to become fluent.  It makes me not want to spend more than 2 years/semesters worth of time on the language in high school, though, because I think you get diminishing returns for the time spent after awhile if you aren't in a situation where you can actually use the language.

 

FL definitely feels like a check off the box item for us, not because I don't think it's important, but because I don't think you can really learn to be fluent in a language by studying it for years and years in a classroom.

[Haiku]

FL definitely feels like a check off the box item for us, not because I don't think it's important, but because I don't think you can really learn to be fluent in a language by studying it for years and years in a classroom.

 

I was in a German study group in college. We called ourselves the Deutsch Dominators.  :coolgleamA: The only ones of us who truly became fluent in German were the ones who either studied abroad (for more than one semester), lived with relatives in Austria for a while after college, or worked for a year in Germany.

 

I was not one of those people.  :glare:

 

As a completely unrelated aside, spring semester of my senior year, I wanted to go to Belgium to visit my then-boyfriend. All my finals were on Monday or Tuesday, except for my German final, which was Friday (of course). I visited my professor, explained the situation (omitting the boyfriend part) and asked whether I could take the final with another section earlier in the week. He said, "You are a good student, and you came to class prepared every day. I'll just give you an A on the final. Don't tell anyone."  :huh:  :laugh:

 

I only tell now because the poor man is seven years dead. Bless you, Herr Professor!