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Wishing there was a magic bullet for math....


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I'm somewhat venting/musing aloud here:

 

DD13 has made amazing progress with reading, up from 1st grade to 4th grade level in 1.5 years of OG remediation and making new connections every day. 

 

But math? Ugh! Nothing helps her understand! We've tried Singapore, Dynamo Maths, Ronit Bird, and Math-U-See. MUS seems to have helped her make the most gains especially with multiplication but still she struggles and cannot do any word problems without help. Even a real-life word problem. For example she wanted to make brownies for youth group the other day and knew how many people she needed to make them for and how many brownies each box made but couldn't fathom how many boxes she needed to bake to have enough for everyone to have a brownie. 

 

Specifically she really struggles with two-step problems. Now, one-step problems are hard for her but doable at least 70% of the time. Two-step problems she never ever can do. I think it's a lack of logic ability? Not sure. 

 

Also, MUS isn't addressing her deficits in geometry or fractions or time/money. DD13 gets super flustered trying to pay for items at the store with her allowance because she doesn't know how to figure out how much money to give. She usually just finds the biggest bill she has and thrusts that at the cashier. Like a $20 for a $1.99 pack of gum when she has many smaller bills and coins available. And she would definitely not be able to give anyone accurate change if the situation were reversed. 

 

Can we send brownies (I'll do the math to figure out how many, haha!) to Susan Barton and convince her to get together with Ronit Bird and other math experts and make a scripted math curriculum like Barton Reading? 

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:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I feel your pain.  DD15 has made tremendous strides.  She finally can do division mostly successfully.  Yeah!  But she still struggles with multi-step word problems quite a bit and bless her, money in real world settings is just...ugh.  We are still working.  There has been progress.  Even today, though, an area of decimals that I thought she had down she really tripped up on.  Fractions continues to be hit or miss as well.  I agree,  it would be really nice to have a Barton equivalent for math.

 

Have you ever read "My 13th Winter"?  Won't help your current problem but I found the book enlightening in a way.  Written by a dyscalculic.

 

 

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That's definitely the math disability at it's most basic, the number sense.  I agree with you that real life stuff is where it's most important.  Not to be trite, but can you play store?  Talk math?  Christine Reeve on TPT has some functional math things.  I think estimation is the hardest thing, because it's not something you really do with a calculator.  It's really just that number sense.  Like with ds, we look at the weather and talk about the percentages for the humidity, chance of precipitation, how much the temp is going up and down, is that a lot, how much lower to snow, blah blah.  Lots of just real life estimating and sense-making, kwim?  So maybe play store MORE, not less.  

 

I got the K'nex elementary math set.  It's really basic but useful.  You can do skip counting and slip in skills like that along with the geometry.  In the first exercise they suggest drawing the figures, using the connectors to make the dots.  So then we're sneaking in some fine motor, how to use a ruler to make a straight line, etc.

 

You know what would be super effective?  I think Toys R Us sells a McDonalds play food kit.  Like it has authentic foods.  So then it would be sorta hip and teen, but you could actually do the math and use play money and estimate and round and work on it, kwim?  Like ok, you have $5, how much lunch can you get?  Your bill is $9.72, what should you give him?  And you could actually use the foods and do it.  Or maybe that's silly, but it's cheaper than going to McDonalds every day, hehe.  

 

My ds has issues with the sequencing as well.  I have him playing a solitaire app right now.  Works on sequencing.  There's just a lot of that where like 10 vs. 20 vs 30 just isn't very real to them.  It could be $300 or $3 and it wouldn't have relative sense.  So we're going to have to do it more, not less.  And one thing, even a good thing like RB, isn't going to solve it, because it's the entire number sense that is the problem.  Computation was just the most obvious way of seeing it happen in school work.  Most of life isn't computation but estimation, relative sense, number sense.  So I spend WAY more time worrying about his relative sense of numbers than I do about his computation.  A calculator can compute, but if he can't know what bill to hand the cashier he's gonna get... well he's gonna have problems.  

Edited by OhElizabeth
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That's definitely the math disability at it's most basic, the number sense.  I agree with you that real life stuff is where it's most important.  Not to be trite, but can you play store?  Talk math?  Christine Reeve on TPT has some functional math things.  I think estimation is the hardest thing, because it's not something you really do with a calculator.  It's really just that number sense.  Like with ds, we look at the weather and talk about the percentages for the humidity, chance of precipitation, how much the temp is going up and down, is that a lot, how much lower to snow, blah blah.  Lots of just real life estimating and sense-making, kwim?  So maybe play store MORE, not less.  

 

I got the K'nex elementary math set.  It's really basic but useful.  You can do skip counting and slip in skills like that along with the geometry.  In the first exercise they suggest drawing the figures, using the connectors to make the dots.  So then we're sneaking in some fine motor, how to use a ruler to make a straight line, etc.

 

You know what would be super effective?  I think Toys R Us sells a McDonalds play food kit.  Like it has authentic foods.  So then it would be sorta hip and teen, but you could actually do the math and use play money and estimate and round and work on it, kwim?  Like ok, you have $5, how much lunch can you get?  Your bill is $9.72, what should you give him?  And you could actually use the foods and do it.  Or maybe that's silly, but it's cheaper than going to McDonalds every day, hehe.  

 

My ds has issues with the sequencing as well.  I have him playing a solitaire app right now.  Works on sequencing.  There's just a lot of that where like 10 vs. 20 vs 30 just isn't very real to them.  It could be $300 or $3 and it wouldn't have relative sense.  So we're going to have to do it more, not less.  And one thing, even a good thing like RB, isn't going to solve it, because it's the entire number sense that is the problem.  Computation was just the most obvious way of seeing it happen in school work.  Most of life isn't computation but estimation, relative sense, number sense.  So I spend WAY more time worrying about his relative sense of numbers than I do about his computation.  A calculator can compute, but if he can't know what bill to hand the cashier he's gonna get... well he's gonna have problems.  

This.  Oh, my goodness yes.  And that is what a lot of people don't get.  

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Here's a link to Christine Reeve's math things on TPT.  They're very practical and focused on function and life skills.  And maybe you're like oh but she doesn't have autism and she's so bright.  So you do it for less time or you spice it up, kwim?  Or you look at it and go OH, now I get what I could do!  Maybe it will just give you some ideas.  Even though she's not writing these *for* math disability, what she is trying to do is make sure the kids are functional.

 

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Store/Autism-Classroom-News-christine-Reeve/PreK-12-Subject-Area/Math

 

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Next-Dollar-Up-Task-Cards-Money-Skills-Special-Education-677149

 

Like look at this one.  It's only $2.40 today because it's on sale, normally $3.  And it's exactly the kind of stuff we're talking about...

Edited by OhElizabeth
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https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Store/Autism-Classroom-News-christine-Reeve/PreK-12-Subject-Area/ChristmasChanukahKwanzaa

 

Here's Christine Reeve's holiday list for Christmas.  She has a shopping for holiday decorations set for FREE!!  So then you can try it and see if it's useful to you.  She has her Christmas dollar up task cards for only $1.60 with the sale (through tonight).  Anyways, thought free was a good pricepoint.  :D

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My 11 yo has these issues too. I agree with OhE , its number sense. We play ALOT of store...ALOT and its started to work n click more.

 

I do MUS also, to introduce the lesson I'm going to do in Singapore . I don't know how long you did Singapore but I tell you , that has been the one thing that has helped them develop number sence.

 

For is Singapore didn't seem to be working either....I kept going back levels (into the lower levels) until we found a place they could get the place value and estimation. I feel like estimation is important esp. For my guys b/c they can get an 'idea' at the grocery store if they're going to have the money to pay for their items ( as adults but would work good with playing store now too)

 

I really feel, just like the O-G style for reading, thst Singapore is SO incredibility orderly that they had the best shot of taking their ' disordered ' minds and start to being in some kind of order.

 

I would recommend you go back a level or even 2 or 3 if need be with Singapore. I found my guys had way more holes than I thought and when I took them to the place in Singapore where they could grasp....I cannot tell you what it did for the self esteem for my boys. Huge. And now, they cried everyday and were in spec ed math class at school ( they are home now) to now have MATH be their favorite subject . they veg to do more now. This from kids that would literally bolt when it was math time.

 

What I did and do:

 

MUS to intro Singapore lesson

 

Keep going back to a place in Singapore they CAN do. I never in my wildest dreams thought they would love math.

 

Now, they still don't know their math facts lol. But they CAN do higher order problems than they ever have. And the place value, the way Singapore teaches the 4 step approach, we went over and over and over it until they got it. They got it quicker than any other program .

 

It has carried over cross curriculum in their minds too, which has shocked me.

They can now understand the concept of beginning middle and end of a story.

Singapore is so sequential I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I was.

They learn to count backwards in even the higher numbers which honestly I never thought either of them would be able to do. They jus teach in such a way that it clicks.

 

I view it as the O-G of math :)

 

I wonder....what version of Singapore did you try? We used standards edition. As they get older like your daughter and my sins 11, you know their confidence starts to get shaken big-time.

 

We would up

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Ending up with 2A with my younger one and 2B with the 11 yo . bu, jus like with reading....somewhere probably in their mixed up filing systems in their brains....as you start moving through it some of those things they didn't think they knew....come out of that misplaced file in their brains and are correctly filed then...you make even more progress.

 

Just what we did that worked. I recommend giving it a try , with lots of playing store.

The older one picks up his pace everyday. Younger one does too, jus lil slower than my 11 yo.

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Here, this one is really good!  It's $11.20 till midnight tonight, but wow is it sophisticated!  Way more complex than what you'd think up on your own.

 

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Special-Education-Grocery-Store-Activities-for-Functional-Life-Skills-autism-1312495

 

They figure out the prices of items if they buy 2 or if it's BOGO, use coupons, write checks, figure out the balance for their checkbook.  Awesome stuff!  Totally age-appropriate for a 10-12 yo, mercy, and they'd be working on that functional math.  

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My 11 yo has these issues too. I agree with OhE , its number sense. We play ALOT of store...ALOT and its started to work n click more.

 

I do MUS also, to introduce the lesson I'm going to do in Singapore . I don't know how long you did Singapore but I tell you , that has been the one thing that has helped them develop number sence.

 

For is Singapore didn't seem to be working either....I kept going back levels (into the lower levels) until we found a place they could get the place value and estimation. I feel like estimation is important esp. For my guys b/c they can get an 'idea' at the grocery store if they're going to have the money to pay for their items ( as adults but would work good with playing store now too)

 

I really feel, just like the O-G style for reading, thst Singapore is SO incredibility orderly that they had the best shot of taking their ' disordered ' minds and start to being in some kind of order.

 

I would recommend you go back a level or even 2 or 3 if need be with Singapore. I found my guys had way more holes than I thought and when I took them to the place in Singapore where they could grasp....I cannot tell you what it did for the self esteem for my boys. Huge. And now, they cried everyday and were in spec ed math class at school ( they are home now) to now have MATH be their favorite subject . they veg to do more now. This from kids that would literally bolt when it was math time.

 

What I did and do:

 

MUS to intro Singapore lesson

 

Keep going back to a place in Singapore they CAN do. I never in my wildest dreams thought they would love math.

 

Now, they still don't know their math facts lol. But they CAN do higher order problems than they ever have. And the place value, the way Singapore teaches the 4 step approach, we went over and over and over it until they got it. They got it quicker than any other program .

 

It has carried over cross curriculum in their minds too, which has shocked me.

They can now understand the concept of beginning middle and end of a story.

Singapore is so sequential I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I was.

They learn to count backwards in even the higher numbers which honestly I never thought either of them would be able to do. They jus teach in such a way that it clicks.

 

I view it as the O-G of math :)

 

I wonder....what version of Singapore did you try? We used standards edition. As they get older like your daughter and my sins 11, you know their confidence starts to get shaken big-time.

 

We would up

 

 

I totally agree with all you guys about this being a number sense issue. I wouldn't worry so much if it felt like it was just trouble remembering facts or orders of operations. 

 

As for your question about Singapore, I had her take a placement test and took her all the way back to 1B...when she was 12 :( I was shocked when it didn't help, it's been magical for my boys and they love math because of the appealing way Singapore presents material. 

 

I'm going to sift through some of these links and such, thanks so much for the extra info and ideas! I think keying in that one curriculum is just not going to work for her might be key. That she might need MUS AND Ronit Bird AND Life Skills math practice.

 

I'm not sure if she'd be embarrassed by playing store, plus we're way short on space in our rental home for now. Do you think it would work if I implemented an elaborate "chore/allowance" system with her (and my 7 year old so it doesn't seem unfair) and have her calculate *for* me what her allowance is supposed to be based on the chores she did. And maybe I could have them earn extra privileges that they have to pay for like maybe extra iPad game time on the weekends or something? 

 

She likes playing The Sims on the computer sometimes and I find myself wishing someone would take the graphics and style of The Sims and make it into a useful program where kids/teens could 'play' real life financial decisions and manage money down to the cent and succeed or fail with managing that in a no-risk situation where it's just a silly game. Probably nobody is interested in making a high-graphics-high-interest game like that for dyscalculic kids :) 

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Most of life isn't computation but estimation, relative sense, number sense.  So I spend WAY more time worrying about his relative sense of numbers than I do about his computation.  A calculator can compute, but if he can't know what bill to hand the cashier he's gonna get... well he's gonna have problems.  

 

Yes. This is why we spent time reading Life of Fred this summer, the goal being at least some sense of number relationships.

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I have heard good things about Tonite Bird. I've never tried it.

 

Have you tried Khan academy? It's free and its taught with videos. I use that sometimes too. Worth a try and FREE! lol.

 

I don't know that the chore /allowance would work quite as well as 'buying something' and making change. But try it. Anythings worth a try IMO.

 

Maybe you could 'practice' store at the local dollar store. Give her 5 one dollar bills and go down the ilse, let her pick out what she wants, practice what you'll do at the register a few times ( and she's a girl, my girls always changes their minds before we got to checkout anyway lol). Couldn't hurt to try. Thsts maybe more grown up and the fact that she actually does walk away with something thst costs a dollar or .50 cents

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Here, this one is really good!  It's $11.20 till midnight tonight, but wow is it sophisticated!  Way more complex than what you'd think up on your own.

 

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Special-Education-Grocery-Store-Activities-for-Functional-Life-Skills-autism-1312495

 

They figure out the prices of items if they buy 2 or if it's BOGO, use coupons, write checks, figure out the balance for their checkbook.  Awesome stuff!  Totally age-appropriate for a 10-12 yo, mercy, and they'd be working on that functional math.  

 

Thanks so much! That is a seriously impressive unit she's compiled! I am in the middle of planning a nutrition, health, food groups, and cooking unit for science for DD13 and this would take care of easily 1/4 of my work  for me, all pre made and much nicer than anything I'd make. I'm thinking that's totally worth the $11.20!

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With math word problems?

They generally start with the answer.

Then we work backwards, to work out how the answer is arrived at.

 

So that the answer is x number of people, recieve y number of brownies.

This provides the total number of brownies.

Which need to be out into boxes.

The next step, is to identify the variable?

Which could be either the number of boxes, or the number of brownies in each box?

 

But the important thing, is to understand that it starts with the answer.

Then looking at how this will be arrived at.

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Simply Charlotte Mason has the business series where the student operates a book, pet or sports store and it is easy to implement and it practices all the math skills.  I think with MUS and geometry you don't get a whole lot of that until they actually hit geometry in high school.  I've been using MUS for my dysgraphic/dyslexic, low memory child and this is the only thing that works for him in any sort of retention.  It doesn't follow the standard subjects of regular textbooks but I'm glad he has retained the information.  Sonlight offers Mathtacular 4 which is all word problems.  They start slow and then work up to harder skills.  They watch a cute, campy skit and then work through one problem on their own and then you click back and watch how to solve it and then go back to the workbook and work through the rest.  I just finished using this with my two youngest and it was a hit.  It actually gave my oldest the confidence he needed in using skills he'd mastered through MUS.  It does get pretty hard towards the end but I worked the problems out on the whiteboard with them telling me what to do and calculators in hand.  It was a nice, fun, respite from regular math and they were practicing skills and didn't know that was what they were doing. 

 

No answers.  I've got issues trying to figure out how to teach my VSL student math and not bore him to death - all the while trying to figure out how to help him learn decimals and fractions when he can do algebra (thanks to Hands on Equations).

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Does being under pressure at a store cause added difficulty?  If so, you could go through likely purchase and likely cost and work on how to think through what bill to use for that ahead of time. Either before even getting to a store, or in the store before heading to the check out line.  Perhaps also have her work through a rough estimate at least of how much she should get back.

 

And would a manipulative help for the brownies calculation? Something like maybe having a box with pennies to represent a box of brownies and circles on a piece of paper to represent the people, then see how many boxes of pennies are needed to supply all the people.  ???  It seems like maybe more brownie making (perhaps for holiday gifts?) to get to try this sort of real life situation again could help.

 

When I was a little kid we lived in a city where little kids going to the store alone was commonplace. So I had way more real practice with something like that by the time I was 7 than my ds has had in his whole life to age 13. That may be true for your dd too.  Can she do more of whatever is involved in real shopping with you to be able to hone her skills?  

 

Do you play games with money and math? That could help too.

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IMO. ... Math in focus. No good. It's very 'amercicanized and does not work the same as the truer standards ed. I haven't used pm. But I think it's close to St. Ed.

Interesting.  I did not find this to be true at all.  Actually, I found MiF to be a great version, easier for a layman with no experience with that type of math to teach and the TMs are really well done.  My kids both liked the layout much better as well. I found the program to be incredibly close to the Standards Edition in every way that matters, just presented in a friendlier way. I liked the TM better than the HIG for ease of use, as well.  Don't get me wrong, both programs are really good.  I am definitely not trashing Singapore Standards at all.  I just found MiF more user friendly.  However, I did not find MiF or any other Singapore based program to be a good fit for my dyscalculic daughter.  CLE coupled with Ronit Bird and other materials has worked better.  Singapore, in any version, just frustrated her no end, despite liking the layout on the page of MiF.  I still use the MiF word problems upon occasion though.

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Yes, I know its controversial. The 2 camps so to speak . that's why I prefaced it with IMO...in my opinion. :)

 

I personally do not like it. I have used it....to me...way more stuff to sift they in tm just to get to the meat of the lesson.

 

I think the hig of standards is very direct and to the point.

 

And the fact per level it is at least and maybe more than...double . cannot see it.

 

Just. My opinion :)

Not gonna pay double for something that takes the teacher more time to sift through just to get to the meat of the matter.

The op seems very capable IMO it would definitely had been a waste of her hard earned money at Christmas.

 

I couldn't in good conscience not make that distinction so...

:)

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I'm with you.

Dd 13, just doesn't get math. At all.

 

Ronit bird & Dynamo was like pulling teeth "this is for babies,", she said.

 

Went back to CLE 2, & thins were either way too easy, or way too hard.

MUS no spiral so I had to make spiral worksheets to go with it, but loved the MUS page layout.

 

TT, just the workbook, on the whiteboard with me is our best thing right now.

 

Right now, I've almost sort of given up on math:(

 

We did order some Life Skills math stuff from Remedia Publications this year- Menu Math (restaurant menu, you choose ice cream shop or burger joint or diner) & market math. We're going to start using real money along with the worksheet activities.

 

She can barely do math worksheets or problems, trying to apply that math to real life is beyond her. Ugh. (We have the same problem with always using a $20 to pay, so I kwym)

 

I'm looking at the Charlotte Mason Your own Business class, but I think the math is too hard, so she won't get the running the business concepts.

 

We own The Allowance Game, it's like playing store, you make change with play money.

 

Math difficulties R so rough! The other day she had no idea how to carry the one for a double digit addition problem- we've been doing that for like 6 years:(

 

I hate saying it, but I wish my dd functioned/ tested like 5 points lower, so she'd be eligible for DD services, rather than nothing. I have no idea how she's ever going to make it as an adult one day:(

Edited by Hilltopmom
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http://tdlc.ucsd.edu/press/pressroom-Convergence2014.html

 

 

I found this on the webpage that Heather provided.

 

This type of math to music ...now science ( when my big kids were young it was only theory. The test studies have apparently all started to come in)

 

I know all kids SN are different.... But for my boys ..music does it for them.

 

I put the metrome app on and its as if it entrances them . esp my older one...I have gotten SO much work out of them after the metrome and thsts only in 2 days. He has slept better and wayyy longer.

 

When my big kids were little based on the theories that are coming in now due to studies . I always played classical music before and when doing math. It helped. Alot.

 

Now, our kiddos most cannot stand 2 things at once...like the background noise while trying to do school. But...this is at least worth looking at and seeing if any of it works for you guys.

I couldn't pull up the videos on my phone, I'm going to later on my tablet.

 

Worth a look and maybe a try.

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http://ecommerce-prod.mheducation.com.s3.amazonaws.com/unitas/school/catalogs/2016/flipbooks/2016-everyday-mathematics-catalog/files/mobile/index.html#4

 

I just found this. I think it's new. Says it is but I can't read the fine print ( no laughing lol)

 

Anyway. You mentioned something visual in the computer or tablet or something.

 

I'm going to check it out and pricing and samples. I have to vet the print version tho. I'm a ' I need the book in front of me person ' :)

 

I think I will have to use some of these things with him.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Connecting Math is a scripted, math program specifically designed for people with ID.  I started using it when I taught Special Ed.  I've seen this program absolutely work wonders!

 

http://www.mheducation.com/prek-12/program/connecting-math-concepts-comprehensive-edition-2012/MKTSP-UUF07M0.html

 

The 2012 edition is a bit pricey, but you can pick up the previous edition on Amazon or Ebay pretty cheaply.

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