What say the Hive: Rude or not rude?

[medawyn]

 

"DH contends that would have been rude, and his job was to provide hospitality for as long as someone wants to stay."

This is not ADD.  This is someone who has very wrong ideas about social obligations.

 

 

 

I still don't believe that's ADD.  That's someone stating what they think the social rules are.  I know people with ADD who wouldn't say a guest as the right to stay as long as they like. They also understand the "work first, then play" rule but sometimes get distracted by other work tasks that need doing. Does he manage to meet deadlines and complete assignments at work?

 

After my c-section with my middle daughter I lost my sense of time.  I literally didn't feel time to go by at all for 6 months.  However, I didn't need to feel time going by to be ware of the fact that time does go by.  I was perfectly able to understand the idea that time goes by and I was perfectly capable of constantly looking at clocks and setting timers me to feed my baby, feed my family, get things done, get to appointment on time, etc.

 

I think waaay too many allowances are made to excuse people who aren't naturally inclined to things rather than spending time figuring out ways to help them adapt or demanding they find ways to adapt if they're adults.   I may not be naturally be good at large scale spacial estimates, but I still have to follow the rules everyone else does when it comes to driving a car.  My husband doesn't have depth perception but he can still drive because he's found ways to adapt.

 

 

 

There are definitely two issues at play here: one is his sense of hospitality and social interaction, and the other is his sense of time.  The first is inherent to his personality - he's very generous, outgoing, and really enjoys the stimulation of having people around all the time.  The second is inherent to his ADD brain.  Our conversational conflict last night came out of the former; he was so adamant about it being rude to show the guy the door, that I found myself questioning my good sense.  From that perspective, we have a boundary that we have to work on to help keep both parties happy, and I'm very glad that the Hive reassured me that my thinking wasn't totally (or at all) left field.  The time issue is why he has a hard time seeing how five hours and no chores is frustrating to me.  In his mind, he had the (later) evening to work on things, and he has "all the time after Thanksgiving", which in reality is only 24 hours at home.  But until he experiences those 24 hours, he just can't plan ahead.

 

He does set and meet deadlines at work, but I know it's a huge struggle for him.  It takes much more organization and concentration than I can really fathom.  I also think that's why it's difficult for him to replicate at home.  Besides the fact that having young children sometimes makes organization and concentration challenging (ahem), I think he also burns out that muscle at work.  And honestly, between the two, I'd rather help him cope at home so he can be successful at work than the reverse.  Sometimes the things he needs help with - and that I have to find a way to tactfully manage without creating my own resentment - just take me by surprise.

[8circles]

 

My ADD peoples, otoh, can, for example, make the same 30 minute drive every day for years...know in their minds it takes thirty minutes....and still leave when they need to be there in twenty minutes....absolutely, positively, legitimately feeling like they have plenty of time.

 

Yup.  This is me.  I've developed ways to deal with this stuff better, but it isn't foolproof & requires LOTS of planning and vigilance.  It's exhausting.

[medawyn]

 

My ADD peoples, otoh, can, for example, make the same 30 minute drive every day for years...know in their minds it takes thirty minutes....and still leave when they need to be there in twenty minutes....absolutely, positively, legitimately feeling like they have plenty of time.

 

This. So much this.  I find it so difficult to understand, but I also appreciate that DH finds it difficult also.

 

I was really good at coping with his ADD brain before children; now that I'm managing two toddlers, I'm finding myself more frustrated.  But I know it will all sort itself out eventual, even with a little frustration.  And presumable we won't have toddlers forever. 

[maize]

Do you know that feeling when you know someone is looking at you?

 

It's kind of like that. But you're the watcher, and it's time lol

 

I tend to the other extreme. I can think "I need to wake up in exactly six hours," go to sleep, and pop open my eyes exactly 6 hours later. It's*very* disconcerting to me when I feel like time "got away from me."

 

 

That sounds like a superpower to me!

[Erica in OR]

I'd put some of it back on the guest. Who, as a visitor, would honestly think that if you came to pick up your car after attending a party at someone's house the previous day (I'm assuming the party lasted several hours), that it would be okay to then linger and stay the very next day for five hours? Hospitality signals on the part of the host would never translate to a five hour visit in my mind as a visitor.

 

Erica in OR

[regentrude]

My ADD peoples, otoh, can, for example, make the same 30 minute drive every day for years...know in their minds it takes thirty minutes....and still leave when they need to be there in twenty minutes....absolutely, positively, legitimately feeling like they have plenty of time.

Could you explain this to me, please? I understand about the sense of time, but it should take being late once (or at most twice) to realize that their "perception" is not reliable and they need a clock because they cannot rely on their sense of time. So how does ADD prevent the people from using tools like clocks?

Edited November 23, 2015 by regentrude

[zoobie]

Could you explain this to me, please? I understand about the sense of time, but it should take being late once (or at most twice) to realize that their "perception" is not reliable and they need a clock because they cannot rely on their sense of time. So how does ADD prevent the people from using tools like clocks?

Nothing, but that's a bit like asking why dyslexics don't use dictionaries. My DH can know it's 2pm, know that we have to be home by 3pm, and straight-faced tell me we have time to do errands that will take 2 hours. I don't know why. He's not stupid. He's not mean or foolish. Maybe in his head, he's doing all the errands at the same time because they don't take much mental energy. I call it a time-space-continuum problem. Procrastinating and executive function issues are often problems for people with ADHD. It's not an excuse for being late and rude and shirking responsibilities, but it's a genuine struggle for some people.

[Guest]

Could you explain this to me, please? I understand about the sense of time, but it should take being late once (or at most twice) to realize that their "perception" is not reliable and they need a clock because they cannot rely on their sense of time. So how does ADD prevent the people from using tools like clocks?

 

Someone who has ADD can certainly give a better answer, but here's how I think of it (as I grit my teeth and give another time reminder):

 

We all do this. Lose our sense of time. Like in music. For the ADD brain, it's as iff the music never stops.

 

They legitmately think, every single time, that they have a handle on it in THIS case, THIS time.

 

And add people *do* use clocks. For regularl scheduled things. As posters have pointed out, after spending all day/week at work battling to match your internal processes to outside expectations, at home people just want to relax. And rightfully so, imo. They REALLY struggle out in the world. Soooo when something that is not a daily/weekly occurence pops up (like packing to move) they have no basis to think, yet, that they aren't going to be able to handle what needs handled in the alotted timeframe.

 

And this is the key thing. When that friend came over....he was not recognized as the distraction he was. I bet the OP's husband turned his attention to that guy, competely (momentarily) forgetting his lightbulb changing duties. IOW--as soon as he was already distracted, he couldn't RECOGNIZE it as a distraction. Rather, it was now **the** thing he was doing. It was too late. The distraction had him in thrall.

[Guest]

Here is a thing:

 

The pictures reveal that people with ADHD perceive time, not as a sequence of events the way others usually do, but as a diffuse collection of events that are viscerally connected to the people, activities, and emotions that fill them. The ADHD person focuses intensely on all of the related details, experiencing these events with all of their interconnectedness. Slotting events into their proper place in time is a challenge. This simple difference in the experience of time can profoundly affect life for people in both groups.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Here is a thing:

Yes.  Time is not perceived as a linear progression.  And once you are focusing on something you focus on that something and all the things that might be connected to that something and everything else slides into the abyss.  Time is irrelevant.  It isn't felt at all.  

[maize]

Could you explain this to me, please? I understand about the sense of time, but it should take being late once (or at most twice) to realize that their "perception" is not reliable and they need a clock because they cannot rely on their sense of time. So how does ADD prevent the people from using tools like clocks?

I'll give this a shot. Let's say I'm supposed to be somewhere at 3:00; I know this place is a half hour drive. I look at the clock and see it is 2:00; great, half an hour before I need to leave. I sit down to check emails, see something that needs to be followed up on, start working on that, get up to get a drink, realize the cats need to be fed, feed the cats, think while I'm in the laundry room feeding the cats I might as well switch out the laundry; start folding the clothes that just came out of the dryer; while putting a towel away in the bathroom decide to brush my teeth; while brushing my teeth notice that the mirror needs cleaning so I give it a spray and wipe; wander into the kitchen and glance at the clock and realize it is 2:35; throw on some shoes, grab my purse, get out to the car--by the time I leave it is 2:40. I may be slightly stressed about time but hey, maybe I'll hit all the lights just right and make it in time, not sure it really takes thirty minutes; and anyway being late isn't a big deal...

 

Thing is, while I was doing all that stuff I had no sense at all of time passing; I didn't know feeding that cat and switching laundry took ten minutes, or that the mirror took five minutes, or...I just wasn't aware of time at all; it didn't occur to me to look at the clock because it just didn't, my mind was caught up in whatever I was doing at the moment. I bet people who have a sense of time passing are a lot more likely to check the clock because time is already on their mind.

 

Know what? Until this discussion it had never occurred to me that a "sense of time" is a real thing, not just a phrase. That other people have an actual awareness of time as it passes. I find the idea both fascinating and foreign. I know that time happens, but I am really only aware of this moment, indefinite in length and absolute in compass. Things happened before and things will happen after but there is no sense of current movement or progression.

Edited November 24, 2015 by maize

[tm919]

I've learned that some people are just like that.  They don't seem to have that social awareness, for whatever reason.  They are generally the same people who don't mind if you say, "So sorry, don't mean to kick you out, but we have to get back to packing now.  Thanks for stopping by!"  I know that feels uncomfortable to do, but sometimes you just have to do it.

Hehe, I have a friend who KNOWS she has this problem, and tells people to "Kick me out when the time comes, I don't have the ability to know when I should leave on my own."

[Alicia64]

Yes, I think you Dh should have shown guest the door. But given the situation, if Dh wasn't going to "man" up, I would have mommed up and showed guest the door. I wouldn't have stood idly by.

 

Not with an imminent move.

 

Alley

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would have put the guest to work helping me pack.  LOL

 

Too late now I guess.

 

 

[regentrude]

I'll give this a shot. Let's say I'm supposed to be somewhere at 3:00; I know this place is a half hour drive. I look at the clock and see it is 2:00; great, half an hour before I need to leave. I sit down to check emails, see something that needs to be followed up on, start working on that, get up to get a drink, realize the cats need to be fed, feed the cats, think while I'm in the laundry room feeding the cats I might as well switch out the laundry; start folding the clothes that just came out of the dryer; while putting a towel away in the bathroom decide to brush my teeth; while brushing my teeth notice that the mirror needs cleaning so I give it a spray and wipe; wander into the kitchen and glance at the clock and realize it is 2:35; throw on some shoes, grab my purse, get out to the car--by the time I leave it is 2:40. I may be slightly stressed about time but hey, maybe I'll hit all the lights just right and make it in time, not sure it really takes thirty minutes; and anyway being late isn't a big deal...

 

Thing is, while I was doing all that stuff I had no sense at all of time passing; I didn't know feeding that cat and switching laundry took ten minutes, or that the mirror took five minutes, or...I just wasn't aware of time at all; it didn't occur to me to look at the clock because it just didn't, my mind was caught up in whatever I was doing at the moment. I bet people who have a sense of time passing are a lot more likely to check the clock because time is already on their mind.

 

I get this about the time sense. But once you know this about yourself (presumably it happens not just once or twice; as an adult you have lived with this trait for decades) why would you not simply set an alarm for 2:25 when you see the clock shows 2? By now, you know how this ends if you don't. That's the part I have trouble understanding.

 

Also, even if you don't "feel" the time pass, would one not know that, for example, in the time span between getting up and having to leave for work one can have breakfast, shower, dress and not be late - but one will be late if one adds any one extra activity?

Those recurring activities take the same amount of time, don't they? I mean, one does not don't brush teeth for 3 minutes one day and for 15 the next. So, instead of sensing the passing of time and knowing how long each individual thing takes, I'd think that, after several tries, one should notice I can do x+y and make it, but if I do x+y+z I don't make it on time - and remember that for the next time?

That's what is so hard for me to understand.

I do not "feel" how long each of my morning activities takes, but I know from years of experience that I must get up from breakfast at 7:15 to get showered and dressed and ready out the door by 7:30 - I know that there is no time for anything besides shower, teeth and dressing. because there isn't, every.single.day.

 

ETA: Just want to clarify that I do not mean this in any way snarky! I really want to understand what goes on in people's minds because I can't wrap my mind around it at all.

Edited November 24, 2015 by regentrude

[medawyn]

I get this about the time sense. But once you know this about yourself (presumably it happens not just once or twice; as an adult you have lived with this trait for decades) why would you not simply set an alarm for 2:25 when you see the clock shows 2? By now, you know how this ends if you don't. That's the part I have trouble understanding.

 

Also, even if you don't "feel" the time pass, would one not know that, for example, in the time span between getting up and having to leave for work one can have breakfast, shower, dress and not be late - but one will be late if one adds any one extra activity?

Those recurring activities take the same amount of time, don't they? I mean, one does not don't brush teeth for 3 minutes one day and for 15 the next. So, instead of sensing the passing of time and knowing how long each individual thing takes, I'd think that, after several tries, one should notice I can do x+y and make it, but if I do x+y+z I don't make it on time - and remember that for the next time?

That's what is so hard for me to understand.

I do not "feel" how long each of my morning activities takes, but I know from years of experience that I must get up from breakfast at 7:15 to get showered and dressed and ready out the door by 7:30 - I know that there is no time for anything besides shower, teeth and dressing. because there isn't, every.single.day.

 

ETA: Just want to clarify that I do not mean this in any way snarky! I really want to understand what goes on in people's minds because I can't wrap my mind around it at all.

 

I think this is one of the problems that partners of AD(H)D spouses contend with regularly.  My brain just does not understand why his sense of time isn't fixable, even with outside aids.  But I've seen it over and over again: he is genuinely surprised to have huge gaps of time elapse without him being able to really account for what happens.  Absolutely for DH, a consistent routine helps enormously.  This is part of what he does at work to help himself be successful.  But any deviation from routine doesn't seem to automatically translate as "I need to adjust my expectations about time" the same way it would for me.  For DH, chronic lateness isn't a problem - he does use timers and alarms to help with that - but judging how much time an activity (or set of activities) takes is nearly impossible.

 

He is currently in our room packing.  This will take him at least two hours.  As long as I have known him it takes him at least two hours to pack.  And yet, he will be surprised that it has taken him as long as it did.  I don't really understand any part of it; I don't take two hours to pack myself AND the kids, nor would I be surprised if the process of packing took as long as it usually does.  It's like his brain just can't hold time in any way that I relate to.  I just have to find a way to accept that his brain works incredibly differently from mine, and I/we have to work on ways to negotiate how that affects marriage and family life.

[maize]

I'm not sure it is possible for an orderly, focused mind to make sense of an ADHD mind. You expect there to be order where there just is not. I really don't have a clue how long it takes to get dressed and brush teeth and eat breakfast. I do use clocks and reminders and alarms--when I remember to. But remembering to set the alarm is tricky. I tend to forget how long it took me to do something last time, if I even noticed at the time, just as I tend to forget that we were late for music lessons last week. Its not that I wouldn't know I was late if I thought about it, but I'm not likely to think about it. Whatever is not NOW is... mostly just not in my mind at all.

 

I have learned some functional skills over the years, using clocks and alarms and calendars and lists. But doing those things is REALLY HARD, none of it comes naturally to me and it requires lots of extra mental effort. And I still only get it right some of the time. I was bright and inquisitive and interested in learning as a child, but the logistics of making it through a school week, keeping track of assignments, scheduling my time, remembering deadlines, and just focusing in class were completely beyond me. I got labeled as lazy and not caring and not trying, and I kind of believed the labels; I kept trying to will myself to change. It is only as an adult that I have understood that what I was being expected to do really was beyond my legitimate capabilities. I muddled through as best I could, but I would have needed a lot more scaffolding and instruction and assistance to be really successful in that environment.

[kewb]

My distracted by a shiny object dh has zero sense of time. It is a struggle for him to get anywhere on time.

Setting reminders on his phone has helped but he has to remember to set the reminders.

As a chronic on time person myself his lack of time awareness can make me crazy. It was worse when we were young. 23 years later I have learned to roll with a fair amountof patience.

[8circles]

I get this about the time sense. But once you know this about yourself (presumably it happens not just once or twice; as an adult you have lived with this trait for decades) why would you not simply set an alarm for 2:25 when you see the clock shows 2? By now, you know how this ends if you don't. That's the part I have trouble understanding.

 

Also, even if you don't "feel" the time pass, would one not know that, for example, in the time span between getting up and having to leave for work one can have breakfast, shower, dress and not be late - but one will be late if one adds any one extra activity?

Those recurring activities take the same amount of time, don't they? I mean, one does not don't brush teeth for 3 minutes one day and for 15 the next. So, instead of sensing the passing of time and knowing how long each individual thing takes, I'd think that, after several tries, one should notice I can do x+y and make it, but if I do x+y+z I don't make it on time - and remember that for the next time?

That's what is so hard for me to understand.

I do not "feel" how long each of my morning activities takes, but I know from years of experience that I must get up from breakfast at 7:15 to get showered and dressed and ready out the door by 7:30 - I know that there is no time for anything besides shower, teeth and dressing. because there isn't, every.single.day.

 

ETA: Just want to clarify that I do not mean this in any way snarky! I really want to understand what goes on in people's minds because I can't wrap my mind around it at all.

 

I can only answer for me.  I understand why you find it frustrating.  You are correct about how it works for you.  The difference is for me, none of this happens naturally in my brain.  I have to do these things explicitly.  For every.single.thing.all.day.long.  I can't sustain that kind of hyper-alertness to the clock.  It's exhausting to continually fight against how I naturally work.  I do it - I'm rarely late for things with other people because I want to be respectful & I try REALLY hard to be on-time.  But I can't do it for everything - I have to prioritize.

 

Sometimes I will plan and be really unusually focused on being on-time.  & then I'm early.  Like, too early to just get there early.  So I wait and try not to do anything else before an acceptable time to leave.  But sometimes I can't & I screw it up again by doing "just" this one little thing which ends up taking longer than I had and I'm late.  It just doesn't come easily.

 

FYI, this isn't an excuse.  I understand that I have to function in the real world where these skills are important.  I don't expect any special treatment.  But it does help when people can at least appreciate that it isn't as easy for me as it is for them.

[8circles]

I'm not sure it is possible for an orderly, focused mind to make sense of an ADHD mind. You expect there to be order where there just is not. I really don't have a clue how long it takes to get dressed and brush teeth and eat breakfast. I do use clocks and reminders and alarms--when I remember to. But remembering to set the alarm is tricky. I tend to forget how long it took me to do something last time, if I even noticed at the time, just as I tend to forget that we were late for music lessons last week. Its not that I wouldn't know I was late if I thought about it, but I'm not likely to think about it. Whatever is not NOW is... mostly just not in my mind at all.

 

I have learned some functional skills over the years, using clocks and alarms and calendars and lists. But doing those things is REALLY HARD, none of it comes naturally to me and it requires lots of extra mental effort. And I still only get it right some of the time. I was bright and inquisitive and interested in learning as a child, but the logistics of making it through a school week, keeping track of assignments, scheduling my time, remembering deadlines, and just focusing in class were completely beyond me. I got labeled as lazy and not caring and not trying, and I kind of believed the labels; I kept trying to will myself to change. It is only as an adult that I have understood that what I was being expected to do really was beyond my legitimate capabilities. I muddled through as best I could, but I would have needed a lot more scaffolding and instruction and assistance to be really successful in that environment.

 

Yes - I really couldn't tell you how long it actually takes to do everyday tasks.  I could guess and be reasonably close for many things, but I couldn't say for sure.

 

I had similar experience in school.  

[Guest]

Right, regentrude, what you are saying about how like once you have EXPERIENCED something a few times, you should start to get the hang of how to deal with it? ...... that's exatly what ppl close to time-addled add people have to do. It DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, but the proof is right of you all the time. So you have to adjust in whatever way.

 

Take a kid with whom.you've been over and over and over and flipping OVER ~e makes the vowel say its name~ with. They see it, they hear you read it correctly. They know "cav-eh" isn't a word. But they just will not say cave when they see it. No matter what you do. At a certain ppint you have to accept that their brain isn't processing this the way most people do. The proof is right in front of your face, in the form of someone you love and respect, and know how bright they are.

[maize]

Here's a thought for regentrude or anyone else struggling to understand why time management could be so hard for someone with ADHD: the lack of a sense of time is not an isolated problem in someone whose brain works this way; rather, if exists in conjunction with a whole constellation of executive function deficits. It is those other deficits that make it difficult or impossible for the person with ADHD to just recognize "oh, my sense of time is off; better fix that by looking at the clock more and setting alarms."

 

Our brains are just too chaotic and non-linear for such a seemingly simple solution.

 

FWIW, I personally believe that there are strengths as well as weaknesses that go along with ADHD type brains. They're just not the kinds of strengths that help us stay on time and on track!

[Tsuga]

Did not read whole thread.

 

Rude: Bringing up his drinking, glaring at him, not offering a glass of water.

 

Not rude: "I'm glad I got to see you before we left. We have a ton of packing so I must get to work. Thanks for dropping in. I'll see you at work / be in touch. Have a good one!"

[marbel]

Did not read whole thread.

 

Rude: Bringing up his drinking, glaring at him, not offering a glass of water.

 

Not rude: "I'm glad I got to see you before we left. We have a ton of packing so I must get to work. Thanks for dropping in. I'll see you at work / be in touch. Have a good one!"

 

It's rude not to offer a glass of water to someone who stops by to pick something up?   I think it would be rude to refuse a request for a glass of water, but I don't see an obligation to offer one under such circumstances. In fact offering something, even as small and simple as a drink of water, can signal to the guest that they are welcome to stick around. 

 

No idea if this is related to the OP - it's happened a few times that someone has hung around too long, or my husband has felt "trapped" in a conversation too long, and afterward he comments that the person wouldn't stop talking.  Except what my husband didn't realize was that he kept asking the person questions.  My guess is that he was taught that the way to be a good conversationalist is to ask questions, so that is what he does, without realizing it.  And so the person is happy to keep answering his questions.  Once I pointed that out to him, the light went on, and...

 

He doesn't do that anymore.  :-)

 

[DawnM]

Hehe, I have a friend who KNOWS she has this problem, and tells people to "Kick me out when the time comes, I don't have the ability to know when I should leave on my own."

 

I think I need to start doing this!  My love language is TIME and I love spending time with friends.  I am sure I have overstayed welcomes in the past and I have gotten hurt when people come to me and then leave sooner than I had wanted them to.  

 

I don't mean to upset anyone, I just enjoy their company!