AP Calculus vs. College Calculus (DE) decision

[dereksurfs]

Hi all,

 

I have a math education decision to make for ds14 who is STEM directed.  He is talking Algebra 2 currently through Wilson Hill Academy which he really likes.  If I follow their sequence, he will be taking Pre-Calc in 10th, followed by AP Calculus his junior year.  His senior year would most likely be a college math course (Calculus or Statistics).

 

Alternatively, he is beginning to take classes at our local CC which has a solid reputation for math and science.  They have articulation agreements with our CSU/UC universities.  He could start Pre-Calculus there next year which is an 'intense' 5 unit semester course.  That would be equivalent to a full year of high school Pre-Calculus.  This is the prerequisite for their 5 unit engineering Calculus courses which follow.  These courses are all free while he is still in high school.   Consequently, many homeschool families in our area utilize the college extensively.  Some even finish their associate degrees before high school graduation.  

 

However, when it comes to math, I am not certain jumping from high school Algebra 2 to college level Pre-Calc, then Calculus is a good idea for ds14.  While he is good at math, he still struggles with time management spending many nights doing his homework until 10PM+.  I am concerned jumping right into intense 5 unit college math courses may be too much, too soon for him his sophomore year.

 

The biggest advantages would be allowing him to jump start his college level STEM courses.  Some have college Calculus as prerequisites.  In addition, these are freely available vs. more expensive online high school Pre-Cal/Calc courses.  Though cost isn't our primary concern.

 

It seems like many with STEM students opt for high school AP Calculus (or equivalent) first.  Though, I know some have gone right into college Calculus and skipped this step.  I would like to get your thoughts and rationale regarding this decision.  As it stands, I am leaning toward AP Calculus, though still somewhat undecided/torn.

 

Thanks,

[regentrude]

Many students benefit from double exposure; my kids take regular calculus in high school and then retake the complete calculus sequence at the final university. In this scenario, it would be unnecessary to make the high school calculus AP.

 

My main point of consideration would be: where are they taught better? I would, for example, never outsource precalculus to our local, good, STEM university - because at home, I can use AoPS and teach a very challenging precalculus class, and at our uni, college algebra+ trig are remedial courses and the classes are full of students who struggle with math, not the environment I want for my kids.

 

I agree that having a 14 y/o who is not super organized take a 5 hour college math course may not be the ideal idea. Why not do the precalc at home and then reevaluate whether to have him take calculus at college or at home? That's the route I would go.

 

ETA: And then there are, of course, financial considerations. I would not spend tuition money on a course I can teach equally well or better at home. Your situation is different, since it is free.

[MarkT]

My suggestion create or find an Integrated or not so integrated Precalc /  Statistics / Discrete Math class for 10th grade call it "Advanced Algebra, Discrete Math and Statistics" then take the CC Pre-Calculus next year which is an 'intense' 5 unit semester course Fall term 11th grade and Calculus I Spring term.  Then he has many options for senior year.

 

Would you be comfortable doing/teaching the hybrid class?  Using Kahn or other free stuff.

[EKS]

I would have him do a solid precalculus course at home and then see where he places at the CC.  

[kiana]

I would tend to avoid jumping into precalculus by doing a 5cr class at a college. The pace will be VERY fast, and it puts him off-sequence for calculus. I would tend to avoid starting with calc 1 in the spring as this tends to end up with the weaker students who didn't place into calculus after high school and the students who already failed it once.

 

Starting with calculus as a junior sounds good. You can make up your mind as junior year gets closer.

 

Whether to repeat calculus at the university depends on a few things -- one of which would be "is it better taught there?" If the student is going to a university which truly excels in undergraduate math education and has a true honors track (harvard, mit, u chicago, ohio state, places like that) I would repeat the calculus, because it will help with the transition to a higher level of thinking. But if the student is going to a local state university with no honors track or is going to transfer from CC, and has done well in AP calculus with conceptual understanding as well as the stupid "how to plug stuff into a graphing calculator" that tends to be taught in some classes, then honestly I wouldn't.

[MarkT]

I would tend to avoid jumping into precalculus by doing a 5cr class at a college. The pace will be VERY fast, and it puts him off-sequence for calculus. I would tend to avoid starting with calc 1 in the spring as this tends to end up with the weaker students who didn't place into calculus after high school and the students who already failed it once.

 

Not always the case at CC level. In this situation, maybe 1/4 are the smart HS students. He could ask the other home schoolers that have been there already if they took spring calc.

 

Besides a decent College instructor will less likely dumb down the Math class like they seem to do in HS.

It seems like many with STEM students opt for high school AP Calculus (or equivalent) first.  Though, I know some have gone right into college Calculus and skipped this step.  I would like to get your thoughts and rationale regarding this decision.  As it stands, I am leaning toward AP Calculus, though still somewhat undecided/torn.

 

 

I don't have a good answer to your question.  However, I think if you reframe it a bit, it may help you to come up with a good answer.  Too often, (even here), I hear parents working very hard, even perhaps bending the rules, to get their kids into the most prestigious colleges possible, or to "knock off" gen-ed requirements early, hoping to graduate early, as if college was just a check-box, "get the paper and get out" kind of experience, and assuming that once admitted, every student will graduate on time with a good experience.

 

I think a better way to think about colleges is to ask "How can my student have the best possible college experience -- to learn and grow the most"?  Maybe this means going to a more specialized college, instead of a more prestigious one.  Maybe it means repeating calculus in college that was also taken in high school.  Maybe it means not taking calculus in high school at all, to make sure that the fundamentals of algebra and math are solid enough to really do calc right in college.  Maybe it means taking a gap year. Maybe it means taking classes during high school that develop relationships with professors that help win an REU early in their college career.  It almost certainly does not mean "how can she finish as quickly as possible".

 

Now, my experience with CC is colored by our local ones, which are not wonderful, but are, I think, typical.  The CC experience can be useful for learning how to manage a class that may be a bit less structured, dealing with peers who maybe aren't as motivated as you've been accustomed to, and generally being a good introduction to college.

 

As far as content, though, I'm less sure of the value.  You say that yours has articulation agreements with your local college, but are those agreements politically motivated or educationally?  Can you ask at the four year college to see how well these students actually do once there?

 

So, I have no concrete advice for you, but do let us know what you come up with, but think about how it impacts the four-year college experience.

[Mike in SA]

Word of caution: some universities (typically only top tier) do not accept DE credits, but will take transfer credit for post HS courses, and will take high AP scores. Strange, but true. Rice U pops out as a local example for us.

[MarkT]

Word of caution: some universities (typically only top tier) do not accept DE credits, but will take transfer credit for post HS courses, and will take high AP scores. Strange, but true. Rice U pops out as a local example for us.

You could always take the AP exam the same year as the DE class.

[quark]

Derek, what does your DS want to do? How important is it to him to have IRL classes? For my DS, we waited till he was ready for and really wanted to take an IRL calculus class before using the CC. We didn't want him at the CC for anything below calc. We are also using a high reputation CC but the quality of math courses at this CC is sadly, dismal with the exception of very few sections. Thankfully their physics courses are excellent.

 

DS has been lucky to have chosen the more caring math profs but there isn't much to hope for in terms of quality after being used to lots of challenge. However, he has learned some great time management skills and can now have verified math credits (lower div) out of the way so that he can soon move on to where his heart truly lies, the upper div courses. If your DS yearns for in person classes with teachers then you might consider the CC but there's a lot to balance...not just time management but also learning to manage expectations and disappointments with how plug and chug some of these classes are.

 

Otherwise, I would wait. I don't feel that working so hard for a 5-unit course matters at the CC precalc level. He could easily learn that at the calc level (and it doesn't take a very long time to learn when the student wants it badly). It's sad but that's what CC math is for my son...a way to get some credits out of the way so he can follow his interests more thoroughly. He does lots of his "own" math on the side and I don't feel like he is being shortchanged (given how low our CC prices are...if they were more expensive, this would not have been our choice at all).

 

There actually aren't many courses at our CC that require calculus as a prerequisite. I was surprised to note this. I honestly thought that he would need calculus for a lot more than what is offered (our CC is considered large-ish and top 5-ish for this area). I haven't looked deeply into engineering courses though so that might be where more calc is needed?

 

ETA: I wanted to add though that there are benefits to the CC a pp mentioned that we didn't know about. DS is enjoying these benefits tremendously for the language and humanities classes. Just not for math.

[regentrude]

There actually aren't many courses at our CC that require calculus as a prerequisite. I was surprised to note this. I honestly thought that he would need calculus for a lot more than what is offered (our CC is considered large-ish and top 5-ish for this area). I haven't looked deeply into engineering courses though so that might be where more calc is needed?

 

I am not surprised.

Aside from certain engineering courses,  calculus is needed as a prerequisite for intro calculus based physics (which, in turn, is a prerequisite for any further physics courses) and as prerequisite for higher math courses.

Most CCs won't offer much in terms of advanced math and physics.

 

[MarkT]

There actually aren't many courses at our CC that require calculus as a prerequisite. I was surprised to note this. I honestly thought that he would need calculus for a lot more than what is offered (our CC is considered large-ish and top 5-ish for this area). I haven't looked deeply into engineering courses though so that might be where more calc is needed?

 

 

our large CC has

 

     5 Math

     9 Engineering

     4 Physics

 

that require at least Calc 1 as a prereq

 

that's quite a few in my book

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Hi all,

 

I have a math education decision to make for ds14 who is STEM directed.  He is talking Algebra 2 currently through Wilson Hill Academy which he really likes.  If I follow their sequence, he will be taking Pre-Calc in 10th, followed by AP Calculus his junior year.  His senior year would most likely be a college math course (Calculus or Statistics).

 

Alternatively, he is beginning to take classes at our local CC which has a solid reputation for math and science.  They have articulation agreements with our CSU/UC universities.  He could start Pre-Calculus there next year which is an 'intense' 5 unit semester course.  That would be equivalent to a full year of high school Pre-Calculus.  This is the prerequisite for their 5 unit engineering Calculus courses which follow.  These courses are all free while he is still in high school.   Consequently, many homeschool families in our area utilize the college extensively.  Some even finish their associate degrees before high school graduation.  

 

However, when it comes to math, I am not certain jumping from high school Algebra 2 to college level Pre-Calc, then Calculus is a good idea for ds14.  While he is good at math, he still struggles with time management spending many nights doing his homework until 10PM+.  I am concerned jumping right into intense 5 unit college math courses may be too much, too soon for him his sophomore year.

 

The biggest advantages would be allowing him to jump start his college level STEM courses.  Some have college Calculus as prerequisites.  In addition, these are freely available vs. more expensive online high school Pre-Cal/Calc courses.  Though cost isn't our primary concern.

 

It seems like many with STEM students opt for high school AP Calculus (or equivalent) first.  Though, I know some have gone right into college Calculus and skipped this step.  I would like to get your thoughts and rationale regarding this decision.  As it stands, I am leaning toward AP Calculus, though still somewhat undecided/torn.

 

Thanks,

 

My oldest took math at a California college as a junior.  This school offered a one semester Pre-Calculus course (5 days a week, 6 credit course) or two one semester courses that met the same requirements for prerequisites for future courses (these were 3 day a week, 3 credit courses).  I had similar concerns and decided that the one semester Pre-Calculus was too big of a jump for his first college math course.

 

I'm glad I made this choice, because the College Algebra (equiv to 1st semester of Pre-Calculus) was a huge drain on his time.  There were some holes in his knowledge that he had to fill.  There were also simply a lot of problems to complete each week.  It built a great foundation for future math work, but it would not have been something where he could have doubled the workload.  

 

You might want to look for your CC's math sequence and see if there is a similar two semester option.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One other reason why we went with the CC was to have some options for math teacher recommendations when ds applied to college.  He took his first CC class as a junior, so it is a somewhat different situation than what you are describing.  It was very nice to have some outside voices recommending him, rather than to have the academic recommendations rest solely on my writings.

[regentrude]

our large CC has

 

     5 Math

     9 Engineering

     4 Physics

 

that require at least Calc 1 as a prereq

 

Curious: what physics courses do they offer? Four semesters of calc based physics seems a lot; are these really all different courses and not just different class numbers?

[MarkT]

Curious: what physics courses do they offer? Four semesters of calc based physics seems a lot; are these really all different courses and not just different class numbers?

MAT 220 is Calculus 1 for Engineering, Math and Physics majors 

 

PHY 210 Introductory Mechanics 4 cr. hrs. 4 periods (4 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to mechanics for physics, engineering, and mathematics majors. Includes nature of physics, linear motion and kinematics, dynamics, work and energy, linear momentum, and rotational motion. Prerequisite(s): MAT 220. Corequisite(s):PHY 210LB Information: High school physics is required before enrolling in this course.

 

PHY 216 Introductory Electricity and Magnetism 4 cr. hrs. 4 periods (4 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to electricity and magnetism for physics. mathematics, and engineering majors. Includes electric charge and Coulomb’s law, the electric field, Gauss’ law, electric potential, capacitors and dielectrics, current and resistance, the magnetic field, Ampere’s law and Biot-Savart law, and Faraday’s law of induction. Also includes magnetic properties of matter, inductance, alternating current, Maxwell’s equations, and electromagnetic waves. Prerequisite(s): MAT 231 and PHY 210/210LB or 210IN. Corequisite(s):PHY 216LB Offered: Spring.

 

PHY 221 Introduction to Waves and Heat 3 cr. hrs. 3 periods (3 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to waves and heat for physics, mathematics, and engineering majors. Includes fluid statics and dynamics, temperature, heat and thermodynamics, kinetic theory, thermodynamics and entropy, oscillations and simple harmonic motion, and wave motion. Also includes electromagnetic waves and the propagation of light, diffraction and interference, reflection and refraction at plane surfaces, and spherical mirrors and lenses. Prerequisite(s): MAT 231 and PHY 210/210LB or 210IN. Corequisite(s):PHY 221LB Offered: Fall.

 

PHY 230 Introduction to Modern Physics 3 cr. hrs. 3 periods (3 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to modern physics from the theory of relativity to the origins of quantum mechanics. Includes the classical and special theory of relativity, relativistic kinematics, relativistic dynamics, the quantization of energy, particles and waves, the atom and early quantum theory, the Schrodinger wave equation, and nuclear, and particle physics. Prerequisite(s): PHY 210 and 216 and PHY 221 and MAT 231. Offered: May not be offered this year, check class schedule.

 

- they have a bunch of 100 level PHY courses for the other majors.

[G5052]

However, when it comes to math, I am not certain jumping from high school Algebra 2 to college level Pre-Calc, then Calculus is a good idea for ds14.  While he is good at math, he still struggles with time management spending many nights doing his homework until 10PM+.  I am concerned jumping right into intense 5 unit college math courses may be too much, too soon for him his sophomore year.

 

Dual enrollment can be really good for a mature student if they're in an appropriate class and aren't loaded up right away. That said, of all of the 14-15 year-olds that I've taught locally in dual enrollment, NONE of them pulled an "A" and about half flunked the class. I teach a black-and-white computer literacy course that is great for dual enrollment, but the younger ones still struggle. Consequently, mine don't do dual enrollment until they're 16, and we go slowly. I pick a subject they're strong in with a professor I know.  Not anything accelerated. Then we go from there.

 

Given what you've said, I'd stick with online high school classes for the immediate future, and perhaps plan for dual enrollment later when he's older.

 

Calculus is indeed something that isn't bad to repeat. I did a semester in high school and dropped it (bad teacher). Then I did two semesters of business calculus. Then I transferred to a STEM school and had to take it all over again. It wasn't a cakewalk, but I was glad that I had the opportunity to repeat it when I hit my higher level math classes, particularly because I was on a double math/CS degree program. 

[quark]

our large CC has

 

     5 Math

     9 Engineering

     4 Physics

 

that require at least Calc 1 as a prereq

 

that's quite a few in my book

 

I wasn't questioning other CCs. Only mentioning my surprise over how few ours had (and it's supposed to feed into state flagship's engin program too, weird!).

 

And I meant non-math and non-physics courses of course. 9 engineering! Nice! Ours has only 4 engin courses that require calc:

- a programming for sci + engineers course

- a programming course using MATLAB

- an intro to circuits and devices course

- a statics course

 

The first 2 only require calc 1.

[quark]

OT -- MarkT, is this large CC quarter or semester-based? Ours has 3 semesters of calc-based physics but there is an overlap in content with the 4 you mentioned.

[MarkT]

OT -- MarkT, is this large CC quarter or semester-based? Ours has 3 semesters of calc-based physics but there is an overlap in content with the 4 you mentioned.

semester based - I guess regentrude can tell us if the last 2 cut the mustard - the first two seem to be standard fare for the Engineers - this CC transfers a fair amount of Engineering students to U of A, ASU and NAU and other private colleges.

[regentrude]

PHY 210 Introductory Mechanics 4 cr. hrs. 4 periods (4 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to mechanics for physics, engineering, and mathematics majors. Includes nature of physics, linear motion and kinematics, dynamics, work and energy, linear momentum, and rotational motion. Prerequisite(s): MAT 220. Corequisite(s):PHY 210LB Information: High school physics is required before enrolling in this course.

 

PHY 216 Introductory Electricity and Magnetism 4 cr. hrs. 4 periods (4 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to electricity and magnetism for physics. mathematics, and engineering majors. Includes electric charge and Coulomb’s law, the electric field, Gauss’ law, electric potential, capacitors and dielectrics, current and resistance, the magnetic field, Ampere’s law and Biot-Savart law, and Faraday’s law of induction. Also includes magnetic properties of matter, inductance, alternating current, Maxwell’s equations, and electromagnetic waves. Prerequisite(s): MAT 231 and PHY 210/210LB or 210IN. Corequisite(s):PHY 216LB Offered: Spring.

 

PHY 221 Introduction to Waves and Heat 3 cr. hrs. 3 periods (3 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to waves and heat for physics, mathematics, and engineering majors. Includes fluid statics and dynamics, temperature, heat and thermodynamics, kinetic theory, thermodynamics and entropy, oscillations and simple harmonic motion, and wave motion. Also includes electromagnetic waves and the propagation of light, diffraction and interference, reflection and refraction at plane surfaces, and spherical mirrors and lenses. Prerequisite(s): MAT 231 and PHY 210/210LB or 210IN. Corequisite(s):PHY 221LB Offered: Fall.

 

PHY 230 Introduction to Modern Physics 3 cr. hrs. 3 periods (3 lec.) Calculus-based introduction to modern physics from the theory of relativity to the origins of quantum mechanics. Includes the classical and special theory of relativity, relativistic kinematics, relativistic dynamics, the quantization of energy, particles and waves, the atom and early quantum theory, the Schrodinger wave equation, and nuclear, and particle physics. Prerequisite(s): PHY 210 and 216 and PHY 221 and MAT 231. Offered: May not be offered this year, check class schedule.

 

Thanks - that makes sense. At our school, we wrap thermo and heat into mechanics and em waves into e&m, so that would be two semesters, with Modern as the third. After that comes the theoretical stuff, that's why I was curious.

 

[regentrude]

OT -- MarkT, is this large CC quarter or semester-based? Ours has 3 semesters of calc-based physics but there is an overlap in content with the 4 you mentioned.

 

Just replied to MarkT:

 

we cover heat/thermo and mechanical waves in mechanics and em waves in e&m; the third semester is Modern. Either setup works.

We don't get into much detail with thermo, but then, all our students are required to take chemistry, so they get their thermo there.

 

[quark]

Just replied to MarkT:

 

we cover heat/thermo and mechanical waves in mechanics and em waves in e&m; the third semester is Modern. Either setup works.

We don't get into much detail with thermo, but then, all our students are required to take chemistry, so they get their thermo there.

 

 

That sounds like what ours does too.

[katilac]

I'm assuming the one-semester intense course is the only choice? A two-semester sequence would be my preference, just to have less pressure, but I wouldn' automatically dismiss the idea of one semester, particularly if he has wiggle room in some of his other subjects (to lighten the load at certain times). If he outsources a lot of his classes and has multiple unyielding deadlines, that makes it more difficult. 

 

Other things to consider: 

How high are his test/placement scores? If he places into calculus, that's different than if he barely places solidly into precalc. 

Does the CC offer tutoring? This can make a huge difference? 

What does he want to do? 

 

Word of caution: some universities (typically only top tier) do not accept DE credits, but will take transfer credit for post HS courses, and will take high AP scores. Strange, but true. Rice U pops out as a local example for us.

 

Just FYI, Rice will not accept DE credits, but they will accept college credit taken in high school IF they weren't used to satisfy high school requirements (which many homeschoolers can pull off).  It is also evaluated on a case-by-case basis rather than a specific score like AP/IP tests.  

 

Edited: to correct a fact. 

[Sunshine State Sue]

This school offered a one semester Pre-Calculus course (5 days a week, 6 credit course) or two one semester courses that met the same requirements for prerequisites for future courses (these were 3 day a week, 3 credit courses).

 

You might want to look for your CC's math sequence and see if there is a similar two semester option.

 

Our CC is similar.  I would have loved to have signed ds up for the 5cr Pre-Calc, but it didn't fit into his schedule, so he had to do the 2 semester option in 11th grade.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Not to point out the obvious, but one thing that was a big shift for us when a kid started at the CC was how much it limited our family's ability to travel.  Even though we'd done two years of online classes, those had recordings if classes were missed and homework and quizzes were submitted online.  Now we cannot take a week off unless either school is out or the kids miss class days.  This fall, our sons have had fewer days off than the public school kids, because the CC doesn't have a fall break (just two days for Thanksgiving).

 

I was glad that ds didn't have classes M-F.  

[katilac]

Not to point out the obvious, but one thing that was a big shift for us when a kid started at the CC was how much it limited our family's ability to travel.  Even though we'd done two years of online classes, those had recordings if classes were missed and homework and quizzes were submitted online.  Now we cannot take a week off unless either school is out or the kids miss class days.  This fall, our sons have had fewer days off than the public school kids, because the CC doesn't have a fall break (just two days for Thanksgiving).

 

I was glad that ds didn't have classes M-F.  

 

So true! This was a big pain for us when dd started DE (travel and just scheduling in general); I'm pretty glad it wasn't until junior year. 

[Mike in SA]

 

Just FYI, Rice will not accept DE credits, but they will accept college credit taken in high school IF they weren't used to satisfy high school requirements (which many homeschoolers can pull off).  It is also evaluated on a case-by-case basis rather than a specific score like AP/IP tests.  

 

This is true.  What matters is how the high school transcript is structured.  Funny -- it shouldn't matter, but does.  But, as mentioned above, you can also just take the AP test and be done with it.  I've seen a few kids take each path.

 

It was just a word of caution, to be sure to cover your bases if you're taking a STEM field and thinking DE.  It doesn't mean you can't do DE...

[GoodGrief]

Tough call.  It really depends on the kid and your individual situation.

 

A couple of thoughts:  how much do you value flexibility in your daily schedule at this point?  With the college course, he will have to attend class on that schedule. This can really tie you down.

 

Second, keep in mind, there will be no ability to teach to mastery in this setup. The grade will be what he earns, and it will follow him to college on an official transcript. If he doesn't master concepts, this could be an issue in later classes as well.

[margoargo]

The most competitive colleges prefer AP classes. If he is definitely going to stay in your state's university system, then dual enrollment should be fine, and will put him ahead in credits when he goes off to the university. It will also allow him to take more advanced classes, such as Physics with Calculus sooner, before he heads off to the university. There are benefits to getting some of these kinds of classes completed early. The dual enrolled classes also provide evidence that your son can function in a real time classroom, as well as very valuable teacher references for college applications.  

 

The only thing I would be concerned about is his age. Will he be 14 when he takes Pre Calculus? 

 

I enrolled my son in Calculus 2nd semester sophomore year. I also had him self study for the AP Exam after the class finished (early May) and the AP Exam (mid-May).  This validated that the dual enrolled class was competitive with an AP class.

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

The most competitive colleges prefer AP classes.

 

I do not think one can make such a broad sweeping statement. My DD attends a highly selective school with an admissions rate of 8%; she had a lot of dual enrollment credit, but not a single AP.  This should not be the main consideration.

I do not think one can make such a broad sweeping statement. My DD attends a highly selective school with an admissions rate of 8%; she had a lot of dual enrollment credit, but not a single AP.  This should not be the main consideration.

 

Wasn't that mostly DE with the local four-year college?  I think that's qualitatively different than DE to a 2 year CC, and adcoms recognize that.

[dereksurfs]

Dual enrollment can be really good for a mature student if they're in an appropriate class and aren't loaded up right away. That said, of all of the 14-15 year-olds that I've taught locally in dual enrollment, NONE of them pulled an "A" and about half flunked the class. I teach a black-and-white computer literacy course that is great for dual enrollment, but the younger ones still struggle. Consequently, mine don't do dual enrollment until they're 16, and we go slowly. I pick a subject they're strong in with a professor I know.  Not anything accelerated. Then we go from there.

 

Given what you've said, I'd stick with online high school classes for the immediate future, and perhaps plan for dual enrollment later when he's older.

 

Calculus is indeed something that isn't bad to repeat. I did a semester in high school and dropped it (bad teacher). Then I did two semesters of business calculus. Then I transferred to a STEM school and had to take it all over again. It wasn't a cakewalk, but I was glad that I had the opportunity to repeat it when I hit my higher level math classes, particularly because I was on a double math/CS degree program. 

 

Yes,

 

Even though many homeschool families in our area have their kids taking free courses at this CC, very few that I know of are accelerated STEM majors.  The age part and ds14's general maturing is a big consideration.  I'm simply not convinced he is ready for the rigors of accelerated college level math courses.  And they do not offer decelerated versions of the courses like some have said they opted for at their local CC.  It's 5 units from Pre-Calc through Calculus along their engineering track.  Then there is the important consideration of effecting his permanent record.  In addition, it could negatively effect his confidence which is another concern.  I've heard of some young STEM students changing their majors after hitting their first difficult Calculus course(s).  While in some cases it may be a good thing, in others I can't help but think they may have continued if more prepared initially for such rigors.

 

I also agree that there is nothing wrong in taking Calculus more than once.  We're not in a 'Race to the Top.' Rather, we are looking to utilize these free resources where thy make sense.  That could still included many of the other lower division general ed courses along with some science not requiring Calculus like Marine Biology. 

 

Thanks,

[dereksurfs]

...

Just FYI, Rice will not accept DE credits, but they will accept college credit taken in high school IF they weren't used to satisfy high school requirements (which many homeschoolers can pull off).  It is also evaluated on a case-by-case basis rather than a specific score like AP/IP tests.  

 

 

He will most likely be attending an in-state California university (UC/CSU) that accepts CC credits.  That is why I mentioned the articulation agreements.  Consequently, we aren't concerned with other schools like Rice. Though I know for some that may be an issue.   

[Carol in Cal.]

For him to get into a top UC as a STEM student he will need a stellar record.

For instance, I have heard that Cal's incoming freshman class (as a whole, not just STEM) has an average GPA of 4.3, on a 4.0 scale.

 

So I would investigate the transferability of his CC classes extremely carefully, and also consider carefully whether or not he can get stellar grades in them.

 

In neighboring Saratoga, which has the extremely competitive Saratoga High, students take summer classes under assumed names and SSN's at the CC to learn STEM material so they can ace their 'on the record' AP courses at the high school the following year.  This is an insanely competitive race you are entering, and you need very specialized 'off the record' information to do it right.  I would recommend great caution in establishing a college record too soon, if it might mean that it won't be an outstanding one.  And also please keep in mind that although the credits might transfer, the classes might not--Cal, for instance has at least two and maybe three different physics tracks for different kinds of students, and STEM students take the hardest version.  My brother took physics as the CC and although the credits transferred, he had to retake physics to get the STEM version of it for his Comp Sci major.

 

I don't know what to suggest to get your son in to STEM major in one of these universities, but it's crucial to find out for sure, and the CC counselors as well as those in the target university would be a good place to start.  The minimum requirements are not going to get him in.

[dereksurfs]

Many students benefit from double exposure; my kids take regular calculus in high school and then retake the complete calculus sequence at the final university. In this scenario, it would be unnecessary to make the high school calculus AP.

 

My main point of consideration would be: where are they taught better? I would, for example, never outsource precalculus to our local, good, STEM university - because at home, I can use AoPS and teach a very challenging precalculus class, and at our uni, college algebra+ trig are remedial courses and the classes are full of students who struggle with math, not the environment I want for my kids.

 

I agree that having a 14 y/o who is not super organized take a 5 hour college math course may not be the ideal idea. Why not do the precalc at home and then reevaluate whether to have him take calculus at college or at home? That's the route I would go.

 

ETA: And then there are, of course, financial considerations. I would not spend tuition money on a course I can teach equally well or better at home. Your situation is different, since it is free.

 

We're not so hung up on Calculus being AP as long at its solid like AoPS, for example.  Though, we're not opposed to AP either.

 

You're main question is also mine.  ds14 has been thriving with outsourced math at WHA, thus far.  We are also not prepared to teach him Calculus at home.  So, our other option would be to utilize the free CC courses.  Since math is so important to us given his interests, I'm not as concerned about paying for the best option.  If it was history (sorry history majors ;) ) or some other subject, then yes.  We would do it at home or possibly at the CC.  I have heard good things about their math department.  So, when the time is right, I'm not concerned with the quality of instruction.

[margoargo]

I do not think one can make such a broad sweeping statement. My DD attends a highly selective school with an admissions rate of 8%; she had a lot of dual enrollment credit, but not a single AP.  This should not be the main consideration.

 

I am not sure where your daughter attends, or what all of the circumstances surrounding her situation are (I am assuming she had some other fantastic talents and amazing qualities, in addition to her dual enrollment), but I have been told by admissions officers from selective schools that they prefer AP over dual enrolled classes.  

 

Now, if a selective school is also a state school, and the dual enrolled classes come from the same state, then dual enrollment is great. 

 

It should be understood that an AP class should be accompanied by a decent score on the AP Exam.

[dereksurfs]

For him to get into a top UC as a STEM student he will need a stellar record.

For instance, I have heard that Cal's incoming freshman class (as a whole, not just STEM) has an average GPA of 4.3, on a 4.0 scale.

 

So I would investigate the transferability of his CC classes extremely carefully, and also consider carefully whether or not he can get stellar grades in them.

 

In neighboring Saratoga, which has the extremely competitive Saratoga High, students take summer classes under assumed names and SSN's at the CC to learn STEM material so they can ace their 'on the record' AP courses at the high school the following year.  This is an insanely competitive race you are entering, and you need very specialized 'off the record' information to do it right.  I would recommend great caution in establishing a college record too soon, if it might mean that it won't be an outstanding one.  And also please keep in mind that although the credits might transfer, the classes might not--Cal, for instance has at least two and maybe three different physics tracks for different kinds of students, and STEM students take the hardest version.  My brother took physics as the CC and although the credits transferred, he had to retake physics to get the STEM version of it for his Comp Sci major.

 

I don't know what to suggest to get your son in to STEM major in one of these universities, but it's crucial to find out for sure, and the CC counselors as well as those in the target university would be a good place to start.  The minimum requirements are not going to get him in.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the crazy competition along with all the high GPA students that are rejected every year from certain schools.  Some work their whole lives to get into 'a' particular school, then feel totally devastated when that doesn't happen.  I am confident we will not be going down that path as we are not dead set on any one school like UC Berkeley, UCLA, et al.  I don't want him to sacrifice having a life during childhood and young adulthood for that kind of goal.  Though, of course, we will look at the schools of interest and their particular requirements once we get a bit closer.  

 

Quite honestly, we would be fine with him attending a CC and transferring as a junior.  We have several friends whose kids have done this, transferring to some great in state universities like Cal Poly SLO.

 

Depending on school and major, I know certain programs require students to take 'their' STEM course whether it be math or science.  That's fine.  I think having that earlier exposure helps students succeed in those courses.  I had to do the same thing when I was pre-med - retake the uni's version of Anatomy which was an intensive 8 unit Summer course!  That was their weeder course as well. 

[amsunshine]

In neighboring Saratoga, which has the extremely competitive Saratoga High, students take summer classes under assumed names and SSN's at the CC to learn STEM material so they can ace their 'on the record' AP courses at the high school the following year.  

 

Whoa!!  Seriously? How in the world do they get away with that?

[bugfree]

 I have been told by admissions officers from selective schools that they prefer AP over dual enrolled classes.  

 

I have been told the opposite. 

[dereksurfs]

I have been told the opposite. 

 

This seems to go back many years as the most common 'it varies' college admissions question/answer.  That said, there does seem to be an overarching trend which places less importance on the number of AP courses and super pumped GPAs above 4.0 as their result.  Stanford, for example, looks at level of challenge, not simply APs and GPAs.

 

"“We expect you to challenge yourself throughout high school and to do very well. The most important credential that enables us to evaluate your academic record is the high school transcript. Remember, however, that our evaluation of your application goes beyond any numerical formula. There is no minimum GPA or test score; nor is there any specific number of AP or honors courses you must have on your transcript that will secure your admission to Stanford.â€

 

Though, to be fair, for most public school kids, AP courses are the most challenging available to them, unless of course they take classes outside of their high school.

[MarkT]

This seems to go back many years as the most common 'it varies' college admissions question/answer.  That said, there does seem to be an overarching trend which places less importance on the number of AP courses and super pumped GPAs above 4.0 as their result.  Stanford, for example, looks at level of challenge, not simply APs and GPAs.

 

"“We expect you to challenge yourself throughout high school and to do very well. The most important credential that enables us to evaluate your academic record is the high school transcript. Remember, however, that our evaluation of your application goes beyond any numerical formula. There is no minimum GPA or test score; nor is there any specific number of AP or honors courses you must have on your transcript that will secure your admission to Stanford.â€

 

Though, to be fair, for most public school kids, AP courses are the most challenging available to them, unless of course they take classes outside of their high school.

I like

http://www.collegedata.com/

the Admissions tab for each college has this info summarized to get started.

 

Stanford not even on our radar screen!