Moxie Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I didn't want to derail the other thread. So, what happens to families that are LDS but not sealed or not LDS so not sealed in the afterlife? LDS is a pretty young religion--what about all the families that lived before LDS was a thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That's part of what we do in the temple. We usually just say baptisms for the dead, but we also perform other ordinances for the dead, including sealings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The goal is to do proxy work for every person who ever lived so that everyone has the chance to accept these ordinances and be with their families forever. That's the primary reason Mormons do a lot of genealogy work (to find names for temple proxy work). Anyone without the ordinances cannot be together. How can they do work for every person who ever lived? They can't because those records don't exist. So, there's a belief that after Christ returns, temple work will continue until every person who has ever lived will have the opportunity to do their temple work. If you're excommunicated and don't get rebaptized and have your temple blessing restored, I think you're out of luck. No eternal family for you. Also, single parents can't be sealed to their kids. Kids can only be sealed to a married heterosexual couple. So, if a parent is divorced and joins the church with kids, they can't be sealed as a family unless the parent marries someone in the temple. In the case of a widow or widower joining the church, the baptism and other ordinances would be done by proxy for the deceased spouse and then the deceased spouse would be sealed to the living spouse. Then the children would be sealed to them. It can get really complicated when temple married people get divorced and remarry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I make it a policy to never try to impose logic on religion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBlossom Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 While it's true we'll never be able to find all the records for every person that has ever lived on this earth, we believe that everyone should have the their ordinances done for them by proxy (if they didn't have the chance on earth) so that they have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ. I honestly don't worry about all the people whose records we don't have. I don't worry about the people's whose genealogy has been entered incorrectly by amateur genealogists. I don't worry about how things will work out for more complicated family structures, like divorces or multiple marriages. But I do believe that God is perfect and that every single one of his children will have the opportunity to come to know the Gospel of Christ and have the opportunity to accept or reject it. How that's all gonna happen, I don't know. We don't have all the answers right now.But it will all work out in the end. That I am sure of. But members of the church are still encouraged to do the temple work for their ancestors, linking generations of families together. There's something about learning about your ancestors, who they were and what they did and then being able to do their proxy work for them, that is so strengthening and unifying. My family line has been LDS for generations back, but I'm still grateful for all the work that has been done collecting their stories and life histories. I come from a line of amazingly strong women who endured and gave so much and their examples give me so much courage and hope through the trials I am going through. I think doing temple work is as much for us (who are alive) as it is for those who's temple work we are doing. You begin to see the much bigger picture and recognize that every single person who has lived on this earth is a beloved son or daughter of God and who has had their own trials and obstacles to overcome. But we are linked and strengthened together through those temple covenants. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 While it's true we'll never be able to find all the records for every person that has ever lived on this earth, we believe that everyone should have the their ordinances done for them by proxy (if they didn't have the chance on earth) so that they have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ. I honestly don't worry about all the people whose records we don't have. I don't worry about the people's whose genealogy has been entered incorrectly by amateur genealogists. I don't worry about how things will work out for more complicated family structures, like divorces or multiple marriages. But I do believe that God is perfect and that every single one of his children will have the opportunity to come to know the Gospel of Christ and have the opportunity to accept or reject it. Are "his children" every person that ever lived or only those connected to the LDS church or something else? Can you explain how it is that a person has something done for them by proxy but then is making the choice to accept or reject the Gospel themselves? Those seem to be contradictory, but I'm sure I'm missing some steps in your doctrine! (Some purgatory-ish waiting place? Sorry if that's a way off description, I'm just curious and don't know! lol) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Are "his children" every person that ever lived or only those connected to the LDS church or something else? Can you explain how it is that a person has something done for them by proxy but then is making the choice to accept or reject the Gospel themselves? Those seem to be contradictory, but I'm sure I'm missing some steps in your doctrine! (Some purgatory-ish waiting place? Sorry if that's a way off description, I'm just curious and don't know! lol) Every single person ever. We believe that freedom to choose exists eternally. If someone who has died does not accept the Gospel when the temple work is done they can reject it (or not accept it until later). What do you mean by accepting or rejecting seems contradictory? We can't force someone to believe in something whether they are in this world or the next. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 How do you keep track of which dead people have been baptized by proxy already? Is there some central record keeping system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The work is done by proxy here on earth, we believe the deceased person exists as a spirit and has the ability to accept or reject that work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 How do you keep track of which dead people have been baptized by proxy already? Is there some central record keeping system? Yes, though before modern data systems were available there were a lot of duplicate baptisms being done. My great-great-grandmother was baptized nearly a dozen times by proxy in spite of having been baptized herself while alive. She had children by five different husbands and all those different descendants were busy making sure her temple work was done... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Are "his children" every person that ever lived or only those connected to the LDS church or something else? Can you explain how it is that a person has something done for them by proxy but then is making the choice to accept or reject the Gospel themselves? Those seem to be contradictory, but I'm sure I'm missing some steps in your doctrine! (Some purgatory-ish waiting place? Sorry if that's a way off description, I'm just curious and don't know! lol) The Spirit World is where people go upon death. If you're already Mormon, you go to Spirit Paradise. If you're not, you to go Spirit Prison, where you're stuck until someone does your proxy work. If you accept the proxy ordinances, you get to move to Spirit Paradise. ETA: This is a lesson about the Spirit World published in the church's Gospel Principals manual: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I found some of my ancestors in FsmilySearch. Does that mean there is any Mormon connection? Also, Family Search lists a date and a place for a marriage. I know the people were married, but I cannot find the records anywhere else, even when I read marriage lists (as opposed to just searching indexes). The family was Baptist as far as I know. Could they have been sealed somewhere and that is the record? Did Mormons who were sealed also get marriage licenses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I found some of my ancestors in FsmilySearch. Does that mean there is any Mormon connection? Maybe, maybe not. More likely not, actually. FamilySearch has a whole ton of records all indexed and available to search for free (censuses, school registrations, ship records, Freedman's Bureau, obituaries, and on and on and on). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Maybe, maybe not. More likely not, actually. FamilySearch has a whole ton of records all indexed and available to search for free (censuses, school registrations, ship records, Freedman's Bureau, obituaries, and on and on and on). I had sort of figured not, but it would have been interesting if they had been Mormon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I had sort of figured not, but it would have been interesting if they had been Mormon. It's possible that distant cousins are Mormon and did the work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Also, Family Search lists a date and a place for a marriage. I know the people were married, but I cannot find the records anywhere else, even when I read marriage lists (as opposed to just searching indexes). The family was Baptist as far as I know. Could they have been sealed somewhere and that is the record? Edited after I quoted the first time :) No, that would not be a sealing record. The date and place for marriage would've come from some record, but it is not necessarily accurate, just what was on whatever record had it listed. For example, there is a year for my husband's great-grandparents' marriage on a census record, but we know for a fact it is wrong (have a copy of the marriage certificate). His grandfather is also listed as a certain age and that is wrong as well (have the death certificate, plus my husband knew him). What happened is his great-grandmother was very pregnant when they got married (8 months, I think). When she answered the census, she made them married a year earlier and her son's birth a year later. IOW, she didn't want the census to show she got married and had a baby a month later! That particular census is also the *only* place my husband's grandfather shows as having a middle initial. Given she fudged on other stuff I don't totally believe he had a middle name. (BTW, none of these people were LDS - my husband is a convert and the first in his family.) All of this is to say, look at what sort of record that information came from to determine if it is accurate or not and then use that as a jumping off point to see if you can find it confirmed elsewhere. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBlossom Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The Spirit World is where people go upon death. If you're already Mormon, you go to Spirit Paradise. If you're not, you to go Spirit Prison, where you're stuck until someone does your proxy work. If you accept the proxy ordinances, you get to move to Spirit Paradise. ETA: This is a lesson about the Spirit World published in the church's Gospel Principals manual: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng That's assuming all Mormons are righteous and everyone else is not. I certainly don't believe that to be true. I find peace in knowing that only God can judge. I think there are many people with good hearts who will immediately recognize and embrace the truth when it is presented to them. To say they arr "stuck in prison" simply because of opportunities they didn't even have in this life is overly simplistic. I think wherever we end up in the next life, we'll be most comfortable there. The wicked will not eve want to be in the presence of God. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Mormons who are married and sealed in the temple do get marriage licenses first. A couple who were already married and later chose to be sealed would not need a license, and of course licenses are not used for proxy work. Sometimes family search has the name and contact information for the person who submitted information (such as the marriage information you found); it might be possible to contact them and ask for their source. You can also contact the family history library in Salt Lake and ask for help in locating a marriage record, the volunteers are happy to help anyone who asks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 It's possible that distant cousins are Mormon and did the work.Interesting. These people were married in Denver in 1880. So, about marriage licenses. Would Mormons of that period have had secular licenses, if they were sealed in a temple? My ancestors' missing info has been driving me nuts. I think I am going to have to go to a familysearch center and ask someone for help! But any info about big migrations would be helpful. I have not really looked into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That's assuming all Mormons are righteous and everyone else is not. I certainly don't believe that to be true. I find peace in knowing that only God can judge. I think there are many people with good hearts who will immediately recognize and embrace the truth when it is presented to them. To say they arr "stuck in prison" simply because of opportunities they didn't even have in this life is overly simplistic. I think wherever we end up in the next life, we'll be most comfortable there. The wicked will not eve want to be in the presence of God. They're not eternally punished for lack of opportunity because the Spirit World isn't the final destination. However, according to LDS theology, they are stuck there until their work is done and they accept it. My phrasing isn't positive, but it's accurate. I find beauty in universalism and I find comfort in the concept of a loving God. Those are aspects of Mormonism that I still believe. I simply no longer believe in all the works deemed necessary to receive those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There were no temples in Colorado in the 1800's. I have an ancestry.com subscription if you want to PM me the information you have and let me try to search their records. Common names are the worst, I have one of those on a dead end line that has been impossible to crack. We've finally turned to DNA genealogy to see if we can pull anything up.I find genealogy to be a bit addictive... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Interesting. These people were married in Denver in 1880. The husband was from Missouri, the wife from southern Illinois. The rest of the wife's family were married in church. I am having the worst time finding out about the husband, as he had a rather common name. But multiple records for him have been entered in familysearch. So, about marriage licenses. Would Mormons of that period have had secular licenses, if they were sealed in a temple? My ancestors' missing info has been driving me nuts. I think I am going to have to go to a familysearch center and ask someone for help! But any info about big migrations would be helpful. I have not really looked into this. There was no temple in Denver in 1880. I don't actually know how marriage licenses worked back then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Edited after I quoted the first time :) No, that would not be a sealing record. The date and place for marriage would've come from some record, but it is not necessarily accurate, just what was on whatever record had it listed. For example, there is a year for my husband's great-grandparents' marriage on a census record, but we know for a fact it is wrong (have a copy of the marriage certificate). His grandfather is also listed as a certain age and that is wrong as well (have the death certificate, plus my husband knew him). What happened is his great-grandmother was very pregnant when they got married (8 months, I think). When she answered the census, she made them married a year earlier and her son's birth a year later. IOW, she didn't want the census to show she got married and had a baby a month later! That particular census is also the *only* place my husband's grandfather shows as having a middle initial. Given she fudged on other stuff I don't totally believe he had a middle name. (BTW, none of these people were LDS - my husband is a convert and the first in his family.) All of this is to say, look at what sort of record that information came from to determine if it is accurate or not and then use that as a jumping off point to see if you can find it confirmed elsewhere. The family search record has a month and day, and I do not recall any census that asks for that. My ancestors got a bit younger each year, according to census. Thank goodness they gave their children odd names and lived with mother in law, then son in law, so I know they are the same people. If someone I knew were doing the census, I would lie too, lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There was no temple in Denver in 1880. I don't actually know how marriage licenses worked back then. Ok. That is good to know. I am learning about the period, but not up on Mormon history at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 They're not eternally punished for lack of opportunity because the Spirit World isn't the final destination. However, according to LDS theology, they are stuck there until their work is done and they accept it. My phrasing isn't positive, but it's accurate. Not exactly. Whether they accept the Gospel or not they are not stuck in spirit prison (really, prison is quite a strange word for us to use when I think about it because it's certainly not at all like a prison on earth). Because of our conception of heaven with three degrees, even if they don't accept the Gospel, after judgment day they will still move on from spirit prison when everyone else does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There were no temples in Colorado in the 1800's. I have an ancestry.com subscription if you want to PM me the information you have and let me try to search their records. Common names are the worst, I have one of those on a dead end line that has been impossible to crack. We've finally turned to DNA genealogy to see if we can pull anything up.I find genealogy to be a bit addictive... Thank you! I subscribe too, and addictive is the word. I do try to look at collateral branches of a family, neighbors, land records, lawsuits, etc. some ancestors are just so elusive! I am reaching the point where I am going to have to pay a researcher out there to find some info, ugh! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Mormons who are married and sealed in the temple do get marriage licenses first. A couple who were already married and later chose to be sealed would not need a license, and of course licenses are not used for proxy work. Sometimes family search has the name and contact information for the person who submitted information (such as the marriage information you found); it might be possible to contact them and ask for their source. You can also contact the family history library in Salt Lake and ask for help in locating a marriage record, the volunteers are happy to help anyone who asks. Iirc, the person submitting info did not have contact info. I think I will set aside a day and go to local center. Thanks to people here for being so helpful! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Iirc, the person submitting info did not have contact info. I think I will set aside a day and go to local center. Thanks to people here for being so helpful! Oh, boy. If someone just submitted the info... who knows if it is right or not! So many of those user submitted bits are wrong, unfortunately. I'd definitely use it as a jumping off point trying to find if it is right or not. This sort of thing is why my mom drills into everyone she comes into contact with to document where you find information no matter if you think you will remember or not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, though before modern data systems were available there were a lot of duplicate baptisms being done. My great-great-grandmother was baptized nearly a dozen times by proxy in spite of having been baptized herself while alive. She had children by five different husbands and all those different descendants were busy making sure her temple work was done... So which husband is she sealed to? How can the other children be sealed if they are from the unsealed marriages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Edited after I quoted the first time :) No, that would not be a sealing record. The date and place for marriage would've come from some record, but it is not necessarily accurate, just what was on whatever record had it listed. For example, there is a year for my husband's great-grandparents' marriage on a census record, but we know for a fact it is wrong (have a copy of the marriage certificate). His grandfather is also listed as a certain age and that is wrong as well (have the death certificate, plus my husband knew him). What happened is his great-grandmother was very pregnant when they got married (8 months, I think). When she answered the census, she made them married a year earlier and her son's birth a year later. IOW, she didn't want the census to show she got married and had a baby a month later! That particular census is also the *only* place my husband's grandfather shows as having a middle initial. Given she fudged on other stuff I don't totally believe he had a middle name. (BTW, none of these people were LDS - my husband is a convert and the first in his family.) All of this is to say, look at what sort of record that information came from to determine if it is accurate or not and then use that as a jumping off point to see if you can find it confirmed elsewhere. yep. people lied to census takers. (my step grand-father and his first wife got married when they were teenagers, and lied about it. and my paternal grandfather had a different name on each census.) the census is only correct as far as people told the truth - and the census taker wrote the information down correctly. both things happened. people lied, and the person writing down the information would get it wrong. or the neighbor would answer for the person because they weren't available - and make mistakes. or someone would get confused. and census records were ONLY supposed to take into account where someone was during a certain month of a certain year (so, even if the taker talked to them in august, they were supposed to only say what family members were there in april, even if they've since died or were born afterwards) . . . but, when the census taker is traveling around - it took a lot longer. I've found babies on a census, even though they were actually born the following year. so, when looking at census information - always look at when it was taken. they started adding dates. and people would get missed because they moved. eta: you never know what you're going to find. I found one man living with his wife - AND - his mistress. each woman at their own address. (he was a relatives' fil from a very shortlived marriage.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 So which husband is she sealed to? How can the other children be sealed if they are from the unsealed marriages? She's sealed to all the husbands and all the children are sealed to their respective parents--you can do that in proxy work. Some of the kids are sealed to more than one set of parents (i.e., mom and birth father, mom and stepfather). We just have to figure it will all get worked out in the eternities, we certainly can't sort it all out here! Kind of a sweet story actually, while she was alive and married to her last husband g-g-grandma went to the temple and had herself sealed to one of her deceased husbands, with her current husband acting as proxy. She then stood in as proxy for his deceased wife while he was sealed to her. If I had to guess who she'll end up with permanently I'd have to say the husband she chose to be sealed to while alive. Some times though we just have to do our best to make sure ordinances are done and acknowledge that we don't know all the details of how they will impact eternity. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 She's sealed to all the husbands and all the children are sealed to their respective parents--you can do that in proxy work. In fact, that's what we are *supposed* to do. We are not supposed to say "this person should not have the work done because they were awful during their life" or "I think she'd like this husband best." It's not our place to decide or judge. We just do all the work and God will sort it all out in the end - even the mistakes. I have an aunt who got divorced and remarried while she was alive. She was not LDS. She was Catholic and even the priest - though he then had to deny her communion (though she was thrilled when near the end of her life the directive on that changed and she once again could take communion) - recommended she get divorced. Her first husband was a jerk. Abusive alcoholic. Spent all their money at the bar. He was also the father of her four children. My mom struggled with doing his work and having them sealed (she had already done my aunt's work and had her sealed to husband #2). My mom knew the first husband. But she knew her own feelings shouldn't get in the way of what we are supposed to do and so had his work done and sealed them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 And keep in mind, the Sealing ceremony contains the *promise* of being together as a family in the eternities, but it's in the final judgement that it's all finalized. So just because a woman has the sealing ordnance done for her and her abusive, drunken husband, it doesn't mean she's now eternally stuck with him. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 In fact, that's what we are *supposed* to do. We are not supposed to say "this person should not have the work done because they were awful during their life" or "I think she'd like this husband best." It's not our place to decide or judge. We just do all the work and God will sort it all out in the end - even the mistakes. I have an aunt who got divorced and remarried while she was alive. She was not LDS. She was Catholic and even the priest - though he then had to deny her communion (though she was thrilled when near the end of her life the directive on that changed and she once again could take communion) - recommended she get divorced. Her first husband was a jerk. Abusive alcoholic. Spent all their money at the bar. He was also the father of her four children. My mom struggled with doing his work and having them sealed (she had already done my aunt's work and had her sealed to husband #2). My mom knew the first husband. But she knew her own feelings shouldn't get in the way of what we are supposed to do and so had his work done and sealed them. My grandmother was psychologically abusive. she was a miserable person, who made other people miserable like she was. It was hard for me to do her temple work, but it wasn't my place to deny - it was my place to do the work. I did it so I could be done with her. (and was secretly hopeful it would help me have some peace from the damage she inflicted.) there were some very profound outpourings of the spirit that day. I will not go into detail, I have an absolute conviction she was very very grateful. (dh termed it as "desperately grateful".) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 My grandmother was psychologically abusive. she was a miserable person, who made other people miserable like she was. It was hard for me to do her temple work, but it wasn't my place to deny - it was my place to do the work. I did it so I could be done with her. (and was secretly hopeful it would help me have some peace from the damage she inflicted.) there were some very profound outpourings of the spirit that day. I will not go into detail, I have an absolute conviction she was very very grateful. (dh termed it as "desperately grateful".) My mom felt similar things when my dad did aunt's first husband. She felt that my aunt was grateful his work was done and that understanding and forgiveness on the other side is very, very different from on earth. My mom's friend had a grandmother like yours. And when she finally did the temple work she experienced the same thing as you did. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Butter and gardenmom, your stories bring to my mind the thought that so much of what causes pain and sorrow in this world is related to mental illness and other circumstances (such as abusive parents who had grown up in abusive circumstances themselves) and that both the perpetrators and victims of abuse have the chance to be healed and made whole in the next life. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Oh, boy. If someone just submitted the info... who knows if it is right or not! So many of those user submitted bits are wrong, unfortunately. I'd definitely use it as a jumping off point trying to find if it is right or not. This sort of thing is why my mom drills into everyone she comes into contact with to document where you find information no matter if you think you will remember or not.Your mother is so right! I document everything. I also document where I did NOT find info, as in -- read colorado Marriages date-date and did not find name, etc. it is a help to me, because it is so easy to forget. But if I see something that I cannot document, I find it difficult to believe that the original submitter completely made up a month and day for a marriage. A year, I see, could be a guess. But a month and a day? I feel like a bloodhound, lol. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Butter and gardenmom, your stories bring to my mind the thought that so much of what causes pain and sorrow in this world is related to mental illness and other circumstances (such as abusive parents who had grown up in abusive circumstances themselves) and that both the perpetrators and victims of abuse have the chance to be healed and made whole in the next life. I think there are also many things that are not even recognized as mental illness - but are influenced (if not outright caused by) a brain structure/body-chemistry that is out of whack. I have a whackadoodle mil. I remember the day I had an epiphany as I was on my way to hitting the ceiling . . . . a very clear prompting that she is incapable of seeing how other people see her, she is as blind as if she had been born blind and it is as much out of her power as vision is for a physically blind person. and just as we don't (or shouldn't) condemn someone who is physically blind that they can't see, she shouldn't be condemned - it was something outside her power. (re: not her choice.) I'm actually rather curious to meet her on the other side and see what she's really like. ( that is not the same thing as not having boundaries.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Thank you! I subscribe too, and addictive is the word. I do try to look at collateral branches of a family, neighbors, land records, lawsuits, etc. some ancestors are just so elusive! I am reaching the point where I am going to have to pay a researcher out there to find some info, ugh! you can PM the info. sometimes a fresh pair of eyes. I have an 2ggf I've felt I'm supposed to find - but the marriage was less than two years (the wife died), and the infant daughter was given to her maternal grandparents. and in a different state (I finally found them. the census taker misspelled the name.) . . . . and the year before (cue frustration) birth certificates, or death certificates were required by the county. sometimes when I reach a dead end, it's helpful to go look at someone else's . . . it can be 'refreshing'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Boundaries are to help us deal with the messiness here and now. Compassion and eternal perspective are to help us understand that a lot of the messiness is not the fault of those mixed up in it and contributing to it :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 She's sealed to all the husbands and all the children are sealed to their respective parents--you can do that in proxy work. Some of the kids are sealed to more than one set of parents (i.e., mom and birth father, mom and stepfather). We just have to figure it will all get worked out in the eternities, we certainly can't sort it all out here! Kind of a sweet story actually, while she was alive and married to her last husband g-g-grandma went to the temple and had herself sealed to one of her deceased husbands, with her current husband acting as proxy. She then stood in as proxy for his deceased wife while he was sealed to her. If I had to guess who she'll end up with permanently I'd have to say the husband she chose to be sealed to while alive. Some times though we just have to do our best to make sure ordinances are done and acknowledge that we don't know all the details of how they will impact eternity. That confuses the matter on other issues, but I'm afraid that may be an area not discussed with non-LDS and may cause offense (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That's assuming all Mormons are righteous and everyone else is not. I certainly don't believe that to be true. I find peace in knowing that only God can judge. I think there are many people with good hearts who will immediately recognize and embrace the truth when it is presented to them. To say they arr "stuck in prison" simply because of opportunities they didn't even have in this life is overly simplistic. I think wherever we end up in the next life, we'll be most comfortable there. The wicked will not eve want to be in the presence of God. we wait a minimum of a year after someone's death to do temple ordinances. theoretically this gives them time to learn and be ready for them. (even new church members must wait a minimum of a year to receive temple ordinances.) I had a relative start pestering me. I'd never met her, I didn't know her maiden name, didn't know anything about her - other than her first name and to whom she was married. (he'd died 30 years previously.) oh - and almost everyone on that side of the family i knew, was deceased. I was able to track her down. she'd died exactly a year before she started bugging me. (consider this a warning about doing genealogy - dead people bug you =D I know a woman who wasn't even LDS, and her deceased uncle was bugging her to do his temple work. at the time - she didn't even know what that meant.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 we wait a minimum of a year after someone's death to do temple ordinances. theoretically this gives them time to learn and be ready for them. (even new church members must wait a minimum of a year to receive temple ordinances.) I had a relative start pestering me. I'd never met her, I didn't know her maiden name, didn't know anything about her - other than her first name and to whom she was married. (he'd died 30 years previously.) oh - and almost everyone on that side of the family i knew, was deceased. I was able to track her down. she'd died exactly a year before she started bugging me. (consider this a warning about doing genealogy - dead people bug you =D I know a woman who wasn't even LDS, and her deceased uncle was bugging her to do his temple work. at the time - she didn't even know what that meant.) Um, huh??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That confuses the matter on other issues, but I'm afraid that may be an area not discussed with non-LDS and may cause offense (?) I'm happy to answer any questions you have (if I can). You can PM me if you'd prefer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There was no temple in Denver in 1880. I don't actually know how marriage licenses worked back then. I don't know that there were many places that even required a license. it was really spotty, from county to county (and state to state), as to what was required. states didn't generally start requiring marriage certificates be filed with them until around WWI. church records during the period are most likely. and it varies by if it is a city (more access to services) - or rural with an itinerant preacher. or if a wedding was performed by the local magistrate because there wasn't a regular preacher. being it's Denver - church records might be a best bet. (depending upon the church/congregation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That confuses the matter on other issues, but I'm afraid that may be an area not discussed with non-LDS and may cause offense (?) I'm happy to try to answer any questions you ask. LDS doctrine isn't secret :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I'm happy to try to answer any questions you ask. LDS doctrine isn't secret :) There are certain practices that I have been told, "we don't discuss that". I have taken this to PM though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There are certain practices that I have been told, "we don't discuss that". I have taken this to PM though. Temple ordinances are generally not discussed in detail, but unless you need to know specific wording or something most things can be discussed. Hopefully you get your questions answered :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Um, huh??? Moxie - have you ever done genealogy? have you spent alot of time doing genealogy? as anyone who has spent *a lot* of time do it, no matter their religious persuasion, they can attest they want to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 So which husband is she sealed to? How can the other children be sealed if they are from the unsealed marriages? I am not LDS but have studied it a good bit. From my understanding, a living woman cannot be sealed to more than one man. In order to be sealed to a new husband, she must request her prior sealing be canceled (whether she is now divorced or widowed). Once she is dead, however, according to more recent changes in policy, she can be re-sealed to multiple husbands. A man widow can be resealed to new wive(s) without canceling prior sealing(s). (Presumably, this is because it is consistent with the concept that men can have multiple wives in the afterlife.) My understanding is that this is because LDS theology currently rejects plural marriage in life but embraces it in the afterlife. So far as who children are sealed to in complicated marriage and remarriage situations, from everything I can determine, the official teaching is that "It's complicated. God will figure it out." I think a look at the D&C indicates that some form of plural marriage will be involved in that working it out in the afterlife. So, anyway, I think the teachings are clear that a living woman cannot be sealed to more than one man, so any earlier sealing must be cancelled for her to be sealed to a new spouse. What happens to the sealing to her prior husband and/or children who were sealed to him . . . leave that up to God, I suppose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_polygamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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