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Teaching kids grit when they've skated through everything their whole life


TKDmom
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So I watched this video a couple weeks ago and it's been haunting me.

 

 

It reminded me so much of me. And my dd14 (and actually my dd6, but she's still little).

 

So in the video it basically says that gifted kids have such an easy time in their early years, that they may not learn skills to survive in life, and they become really fragile and afraid of failure and become convinced they can't do hard things or new things that they don't already understand. Ahem. I'm all too familiar with that feeling.

 

I need to talk about this. How do you help a child who's already in high school develop that ability to deal with hard things? This year I signed dd14 up for several challenging classes. It's too much for her. She breaks down in tears on a regular basis because she's behind and she'll never catch up and she's a failure ... you get the picture.

 

This afternoon, after much thought and prayer and meditation I decided to have dd drop her grammar/comp class. It seems to be the one that sends her over the edge. She's taking an American Lit class from the same teacher, and gets plenty of writing and discussion, but not the formal outlining and essay writing and research papers. When I got home and talked to dh about it, he was baffled by my decision. He feels like she needs to push through and learn to deal with hard things. He also feels like this class is the one she's weakest at, so it's the one that's most important to stick with. (I'm not spouse-bashing--we just come from very different educational backgrounds and he had the gifted support he needed in school). I think doing it in 4 classes at once was too ambitious. DD thinks she should stay in the class because it's "what she will have to do in college, right?" But she doesn't need to learn everything all at once, KWIM?

 

Plus she doesn't have enough time to pursue her interests and get her schoolwork done. Last Saturday, I was struggling through Spanish homework with her, and she was crabby and fighting me the whole time. Finally I let her go off and paint a picture. After 45 minutes of painting, she was able to come back and work so much better focus and a better attitude. I want her to have that time to be creative and play, even though it feels like "wasting time".

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling. Any thoughts, advice, experience would be greatly appreciated.

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You let them try things that are hard and fail. Because failing now is of fewer consequences than failing later.

 

Yes, not getting the grade in a class in high school might mean they don't get into a certain college. But it is still better to fail in high school than fail in college. And better to fail when there are parents home to help pick up the pieces and provide support than fail when they are on their own and three states away.

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My AL plays competitive basketball. He is not naturally skilled at it. Even with years of playing, he is only a fair player. It equalizes a lot for him. He plays with kids who are older and better. He rides the bench as second string a lot.

 

Yeah, dd had that experience with volleyball this year (the season just ended). She made dramatic improvements over the last year, but so did the other girls. ;)

She mentioned near the end of the season that she wasn't sure she should do v-ball next year because she's not good at it. Part of me wants to get out of driving her to all those practices, but another part remembers that I wish my mom had encouraged me to do volleyball in high school... (I have issues separating what her needs from my past self's needs). But the more I think about it, I realize that she has such a great group of girls to play with--they're among her closest friends--and she can also see a direct correlation to how much she practices and how much better she gets at hitting the ball.

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I'm with your dh. If this is the academic area where she is weakest, then she really needs to master those skills. Unless there is a problem with the teacher or class itself, I don't understand why you would want to let her quit. I think it might be better to focus on ways to help support her through the class. What kind of help is she wanting and needing? Can you hire a tutor? Would it help if you sat beside her while she worked for emotional support?

 

This is her time to struggle and maybe even fail. I think it's far better to let her struggle now with lots of emotional support from mom than to face failure for the first time in college or when she's on her own.

 

As far as the larger issue of gifted kids tackling hard things, we have encouraged our kids to pursue extracurricular activities that they find interesting, but where they do not have a lot of talent. For one kid it has been piano, for one it has been sports, and for another it has been ballet. When you work very hard at something you love and are still just mediocre, you learn so much about perseverance and grit. I've seen more emotional growth in my kids through those mediocre moments than from anything else.

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Since her teacher for the grammar/comp class is good and it is her weakest subject and since it sends her over the edge, I would make her stick with it if I were you. I might even drop the American Lit or other easier subject for this semester and ask her to work at the subject that is making her most upset. That would be a good first step in making her work hard for something and persevere.

 

My AL pursues chess (ultra competitive club), violin and basketball - and he is not good at any of them - he is in classes/groups with kids that are leagues ahead of him and who are talented. He has had to slog at it, practice a lot, be very patient with himself, correct his own mistakes, dust himself off when he failed and then go on. None of these skills come naturally or easily to him and he has learned that some things are worth fighting for and working for. We also make it harder for him by choosing competitive clubs/ensembles/coaches so that the expectations are high and he is willing to rise to the challenge. It has not been easy - he still melts down in frustration with all the ensuing "I am not smart" and "this is too hard for me" and the familiar "I need help" - but I handhold him and remind him how he has worked really hard to get to where he is and if he could make it this far, he has it in him to move further along.

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For DD, it was instrument lessons as a young child and then horseback riding and training an uncooperative horse as a teenager. That teaches acceptance of mistakes and perseverance.

 

I agree with your DH that I would not have withdrawn her from the class in which she struggles. That sends the message that I don't believe she can succeed, and that one should quit when things get hard - exactly NOT what you need her to hear. I would instead have tried to free up time by dropping home taught courses and worked with her on time management and study strategies so she can learn how to be successful when something is initially difficult.

 

And I agree with pp that it is important they have the opportunity for struggle before they hit college.

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I had a lovely long post typed out on my phone and it logged me off when I tried to post. Suffice it to say that I started stalking her online presence and discovered she has plenty of time for talking to virtual friends.  <_< Basically she needs better time management skills. Over the last week, I've started sitting with her for almost all school work.  This is taking up most of my day, and I have 3 younger kids to teach, so I'm annoyed. It took her 4 hours to read 40 pages of Huck Finn last Wednesday! Because she was daydreaming most of the time. Then she stayed up all night doing the homework for literature and Grammar/comp that was due the next day. Please tell me that if I stay near her, she'll be able to pay attention to her work out of habit and I can have a life outside her homework. 

 

 

 

.

 

I read your response before you deleted it, and I really appreciated it.

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You dont want to stay with her to keep her on track. She can get her seatwork done independently. She needs to clear the area of distractions, make her plan, and work her plan.

That can be difficult if much of the work needs to be done on the computer, especially online. Clearing the area of distractions is impossible. Self-discipline is essential. How that is developed may vary from student to student. Some may need monitoring while learning strategies for good work habits when doing online work.

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That can be difficult if much of the work needs to be done on the computer, especially online. Clearing the area of distractions is impossible. Self-discipline is essential. How that is developed may vary from student to student. Some may need monitoring while learning strategies for good work habits when doing online work.

 

Exactly. It doesn't help that her own brain is a good distraction. If she's not fully engaged and interested, she will sit and stare at nothing while she writes stories in her mind.

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I can also relate to a lot of what you wrote, OP. I don't disagree with PPs who said don't drop the hardest class, that's not the message you want to send. And I hear you about time management and I'm sure you have identified a big part of the problem.  OTOH, I just want to share that I *do* think it is so important for them to have time to pursue their interests, paint, write stories, daydream, do sports, or whatever it is that refreshes and fulfills them.  I think going from no (?) to 4 online courses was probably a big jump, and she will absolutely need help with her time management to learn how to cope with that.  

 

When I read your first post, I was thinking, "Definitely, drop something." Now that I've read all your posts, I'm thinking that if it were me, my first step would be to help dd see how she is currently using her time.  Really see it. They often have no idea how much time they are wasting online. I find that reviewing dd's browser history with her is very helpful, as is looking at a visual representation of her day/week and helping her see that if she finishes X amount of work in X hours, she will have chunks of free time for her writing, but if she doesn't, she won't.  I'm really trying hard to focus on this kind of time management training this year, so that once she is in high school, where it counts, and there are more online classes, she will have had practice in managing her time.

 

 It's hard, I know, I always think that she will just get this stuff, I have a hard time remembering that I have to teach her how to do it.  I think it's partly because I don't remember anyone teaching me how to do it, I have this sense that I just sprang from the womb with the organizational skills I have today.  My parents & teachers may have a different perspective, I don't know! 

 

 

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I can also relate to a lot of what you wrote, OP. I don't disagree with PPs who said don't drop the hardest class, that's not the message you want to send. And I hear you about time management and I'm sure you have identified a big part of the problem.  OTOH, I just want to share that I *do* think it is so important for them to have time to pursue their interests, paint, write stories, daydream, do sports, or whatever it is that refreshes and fulfills them.  I think going from no (?) to 4 online courses was probably a big jump, and she will absolutely need help with her time management to learn how to cope with that.  

 

When I read your first post, I was thinking, "Definitely, drop something." Now that I've read all your posts, I'm thinking that if it were me, my first step would be to help dd see how she is currently using her time.  Really see it. They often have no idea how much time they are wasting online. I find that reviewing dd's browser history with her is very helpful, as is looking at a visual representation of her day/week and helping her see that if she finishes X amount of work in X hours, she will have chunks of free time for her writing, but if she doesn't, she won't.  I'm really trying hard to focus on this kind of time management training this year, so that once she is in high school, where it counts, and there are more online classes, she will have had practice in managing her time.

 

 It's hard, I know, I always think that she will just get this stuff, I have a hard time remembering that I have to teach her how to do it.  I think it's partly because I don't remember anyone teaching me how to do it, I have this sense that I just sprang from the womb with the organizational skills I have today.  My parents & teachers may have a different perspective, I don't know!

 

Rose has already mentioned most of what I'm going to post, but I wanted to give you a glimpse into how it worked for us.

 

DD went from 1 outsourced class to 6. She also added in three activities we hadn't expected when she enrolled in the classes. Then there was a family emergency.  :svengo:

 

At first we kept thinking it will all even out with time, perhaps once the family emergency stopped being an upsetting distraction... Then we realized she wasn't using her time wisely, so we worked on that. Next, we discussed learning to cope with scores less than she hoped for - even though she had tried her best. After that, we worked on helping her see the connection between getting her work done and getting to do the other things that were important to her. Oops. There was no connection.  :confused:

 

At this point we made a time map and plugged in all her classes, extra-curriculars, meal times, reasonable study times for each class, physical fitness, and sleep. It didn't fit. Something needed to give. Her stress was not only due to some less than wonderful scores, but also to the stress of everything she was trying to do and not succeeding in doing. Everything combined magnified feelings of failure. 

 

The lesson in all of this was that the big picture is important. Struggling is good. Feeling like Sisyphus isn't. Each individual class was doable, some with lots more work and extra help than others. With hard work and some extra help, each class was possible. All the classes and activities combined weren't. Something had to give...

 

OP, I don't know what is the right thing to do in your situation. I can relate to the struggle involved with deciding. 

Yes, planning for a hard work load in college is important, but it doesn't need to be done all at once. The high school years are important in and of themselves.  Mental health and life balance are vital for high school, college, and beyond...

 

Here's to hoping the decision becomes clearer soon. It's a tough one.   :cheers2:

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Your dd is only 14. She may be bright, but she's still only 14. She still needs her parents to help her figure things out. Making her "push through" because you think this will somehow relate to handling adult situations just doesn't seem right to me. And you said this:

 

 

Plus she doesn't have enough time to pursue her interests and get her schoolwork done. Last Saturday, I was struggling through Spanish homework with her, and she was crabby and fighting me the whole time. Finally I let her go off and paint a picture. After 45 minutes of painting, she was able to come back and work so much better focus and a better attitude. I want her to have that time to be creative and play, even though it feels like "wasting time".

 

There's your answer.

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Rose has already mentioned most of what I'm going to post, but I wanted to give you a glimpse into how it worked for us.

 

DD went from 1 outsourced class to 6. She also added in three activities we hadn't expected when she enrolled in the classes. Then there was a family emergency.  :svengo:

 

At first we kept thinking it will all even out with time, perhaps once the family emergency stopped being an upsetting distraction... Then we realized she wasn't using her time wisely, so we worked on that. Next, we discussed learning to cope with scores less than she hoped for - even though she had tried her best. After that, we worked on helping her see the connection between getting her work done and getting to do the other things that were important to her. Oops. There was no connection.  :confused:

 

At this point we made a time map and plugged in all her classes, extra-curriculars, meal times, reasonable study times for each class, physical fitness, and sleep. It didn't fit. Something needed to give. Her stress was not only due to some less than wonderful scores, but also to the stress of everything she was trying to do and not succeeding in doing. Everything combined magnified feelings of failure. 

 

The lesson in all of this was that the big picture is important. Struggling is good. Feeling like Sisyphus isn't. Each individual class was doable, some with lots more work and extra help than others. With hard work and some extra help, each class was possible. All the classes and activities combined weren't. Something had to give...

 

OP, I don't know what is the right thing to do in your situation. I can relate to the struggle involved with deciding. 

Yes, planning for a hard work load in college is important, but it doesn't need to be done all at once. The high school years are important in and of themselves.  Mental health and life balance are vital for high school, college, and beyond...

 

Here's to hoping the decision becomes clearer soon. It's a tough one.   :cheers2:

 

Well said.

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  I think going from no (?) to 4 online courses was probably a big jump, and she will absolutely need help with her time management to learn how to cope with that.  

 

 

FWIW, she had 2 classes outsourced last year--creative writing (which turned out to be a bit of a cupcake class) and Spanish I. Later we added an 8th Grade Science class to try out FLVS. Spanish was a struggle for her once she got past the stuff she already knew and ended up with a low B, maybe B-.

This year she's taking Spanish II from the same people, Biology (again with FLVS--but high school science is a lot harder than 8th grade and less flexible), plus the two classes she's really struggling with. So the number of classes with outside accountability doubled, and the intensity more than doubled.

 

I talked with her this morning, and explained this whole idea of learning to learn and to work. This is gonna force me to learn how to work harder too... I don't want to "adult". :nopity:

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We're having similar issues. I have 2 gifted learners and 2 who struggle. I worry equally about them. The strugglers, I worry about for obvious reasons but those kids try! They can work. I think they have grit and will survive the zombie apocalypse- especially if nobody needs them to do algebra in it!

 

My gifted learners? OMG. Give them something hard for them and they melt down. I'm fortunate that I can learn with my younger one to do things differently and start now really finding ways to teach her to work. For my 14yo DS, however, it's hard.

 

My strugglers didn't always know how to work. They would melt down in K and 1st every day about hard stuff, but we kept at it and it's easy for them to understand that learning to add or read is non-negotiable. For my DS, at 14, he's more likely to think if it's hard, then it's "stupid" and he doesn't need the class. I try to remember how hard it was for my struggling 2 to work when they were younger and then to expect it from DS. In a way, he's developmentally delayed! He's delayed in learning how to struggle in many ways.

 

I make him watch videos about the plasticity of the brain and show him how doing hard things is good for him. I tell him that if it's not hard, it's not doing anything for him. I try to teach him how to learn. You'd think an AL would know this, naturally, but I find it's not true. He doesn't know how to study because he's never needed to. He's having a hard time understanding that studying is not a sign of failure or weakness. I'm doing a lot of hand holding and walking him through studying, note taking (he hates this!), and changing his self-talk. We need to reframe the inner dialogue often. I'm seeing improvement.

 

With my younger one, I'm accelerating her through subjects so that things are harder now. If she gets every answer right without trying, I'm not saying it's great. I'm telling her it's too easy and we move to something harder. I'm not accepting work appropriate for her grade but not for her and giving her praise for minimal effort. With my DS, he was in PS and coasting along in the earlier grades getting loads of positive feedback for literally doing almost no work. I don't let that happen with DD. With DS, I'm still working on getting him to NOT turn in lowballing BS that he thinks will work. 

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Right, thinking about this more and riffing on WMA's post: It's not good to drop something because it's hard and you are struggling with it.  However, it is good, smart, legitimate, reasonable to drop something because you realized that the schedule you have created is untenable and isn't healthy for your dd.  You can't know that in advance, you tried something that seems reasonable, but it is stressing her out and not offering her free time for those things that are important to her, and important to you to provide for her.  Dropping something on that basis is totally legit.  I would also couple that with time management assessment and training, for sure.

 

Sometimes what we do is way less important than why we do it. You could drop a class for the wrong reasons, sending the wrong message. Or you could drop a class for good reasons, sending the right message.  Same outcome on paper, but totally different psychological outcomes. That is important.

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 All the classes and activities combined weren't. Something had to give...

 

OP, I don't know what is the right thing to do in your situation. I can relate to the struggle involved with deciding. 

Yes, planning for a hard work load in college is important, but it doesn't need to be done all at once. The high school years are important in and of themselves.  Mental health and life balance are vital for high school, college, and beyond...

 

Here's to hoping the decision becomes clearer soon. It's a tough one.   :cheers2:

:001_wub:

 

Yes, something does need to give.  I just haven't figured out what. Mental health is a very real issue in my family. Thank you for your kind words.  :001_smile:

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My strugglers didn't always know how to work. They would melt down in K and 1st every day about hard stuff, but we kept at it and it's easy for them to understand that learning to add or read is non-negotiable. For my DS, at 14, he's more likely to think if it's hard, then it's "stupid" and he doesn't need the class. I try to remember how hard it was for my struggling 2 to work when they were younger and then to expect it from DS. In a way, he's developmentally delayed! He's delayed in learning how to struggle in many ways.

 

I make him watch videos about the plasticity of the brain and show him how doing hard things is good for him. I tell him that if it's not hard, it's not doing anything for him. I try to teach him how to learn. You'd think an AL would know this, naturally, but I find it's not true. He doesn't know how to study because he's never needed to. He's having a hard time understanding that studying is not a sign of failure or weakness. I'm doing a lot of hand holding and walking him through studying, note taking (he hates this!), and changing his self-talk. We need to reframe the inner dialogue often. I'm seeing improvement.

 

With my younger one, I'm accelerating her through subjects so that things are harder now. If she gets every answer right without trying, I'm not saying it's great. I'm telling her it's too easy and we move to something harder. I'm not accepting work appropriate for her grade but not for her and giving her praise for minimal effort. With my DS, he was in PS and coasting along in the earlier grades getting loads of positive feedback for literally doing almost no work. I don't let that happen with DD. With DS, I'm still working on getting him to NOT turn in lowballing BS that he thinks will work. 

 

I love this idea! What an interesting way of framing the problem.

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With my younger one, I'm accelerating her through subjects so that things are harder now. If she gets every answer right without trying, I'm not saying it's great. I'm telling her it's too easy and we move to something harder. I'm not accepting work appropriate for her grade but not for her and giving her praise for minimal effort. With my DS, he was in PS and coasting along in the earlier grades getting loads of positive feedback for literally doing almost no work. I don't let that happen with DD. With DS, I'm still working on getting him to NOT turn in lowballing BS that he thinks will work. 

 

I loved your whole post, but this part stuck out for me. DH and I both coasted through school and it was easy for us both. Struggling was definitely something I had to learn to do and DH still has a hard time with. Oldest dd has lots of challenges and doesn't bat an eye at struggling. She will struggle her whole life. It is her norm. Dd5 I can already see will have a major problem with struggling. She gets things very quickly, but if she gets an answer wrong or doesn't understand something IMMEDIATELY, she melts down hard core. I am already well-aware that I will need to push this kid to work through that attitude. and work hard to keep her challenged. The praising for too easy work is something I am guilty of, however. I never thought about it that way. Thank you for giving me a different perspective. 

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My daughter says nothing about (b&m) school is challenging.  She also doesn't like doing anything extra at home (other than free reading, which she does to the extreme).  I don't choose to push home academics on her much, because at 8yo I don't see what's wrong with her enjoying her friends, dolls, and books after a long day.

 

This year she is in "junior band."  She chose the clarinet.  It is apparently difficult to make it sound musical.  She avoids practicing.  I think this challenge is the best thing for her.  Now how to get her to work on it when she's told to.  :/  The other day she mentioned maybe only playing the recorder in the upcoming band performance, but I'm not going to let her off that easy.

 

I also put her in sports (either non competitive or rec level) where she is below average.  She has the most patient coaches you could ask for, and she slowly progresses.  I also put her in theater activities, despite her disliking the stage.  I hope these help her to develop that grit which other kids get from tough reading and math challenges.

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We're having similar issues. I have 2 gifted learners and 2 who struggle. I worry equally about them. The strugglers, I worry about for obvious reasons but those kids try! They can work. I think they have grit and will survive the zombie apocalypse- especially if nobody needs them to do algebra in it!

 

My gifted learners? OMG. Give them something hard for them and they melt down. I'm fortunate that I can learn with my younger one to do things differently and start now really finding ways to teach her to work. For my 14yo DS, however, it's hard.

 

My strugglers didn't always know how to work. They would melt down in K and 1st every day about hard stuff, but we kept at it and it's easy for them to understand that learning to add or read is non-negotiable. For my DS, at 14, he's more likely to think if it's hard, then it's "stupid" and he doesn't need the class. I try to remember how hard it was for my struggling 2 to work when they were younger and then to expect it from DS. In a way, he's developmentally delayed! He's delayed in learning how to struggle in many ways.

 

I make him watch videos about the plasticity of the brain and show him how doing hard things is good for him. I tell him that if it's not hard, it's not doing anything for him. I try to teach him how to learn. You'd think an AL would know this, naturally, but I find it's not true. He doesn't know how to study because he's never needed to. He's having a hard time understanding that studying is not a sign of failure or weakness. I'm doing a lot of hand holding and walking him through studying, note taking (he hates this!), and changing his self-talk. We need to reframe the inner dialogue often. I'm seeing improvement.

 

With my younger one, I'm accelerating her through subjects so that things are harder now. If she gets every answer right without trying, I'm not saying it's great. I'm telling her it's too easy and we move to something harder. I'm not accepting work appropriate for her grade but not for her and giving her praise for minimal effort. With my DS, he was in PS and coasting along in the earlier grades getting loads of positive feedback for literally doing almost no work. I don't let that happen with DD. With DS, I'm still working on getting him to NOT turn in lowballing BS that he thinks will work. 

 

All of the bolded bits above describe my life with my DS14 - and the super-emphasized bits especially so!  Maybe I should have made those bits fire-engine red, too, to catch all the angst twisted up in there.  ;)

 

It is SO hard.  Math is the worst for meltdowns, and note-taking is still at the BS lowballing level.  After DS's first bio test last week, I am hopeful he'll turn the corner.  I told him from the beginning that the bio tests would be open-note, and that if he doesn't raise the quality of his notes they will be pretty much useless - and I think seeing the 55% score helped drive the point home.  (Inwardly, I rejoiced when his score came out to 55%, for exactly that reason!  There's nothing worse than warning a gifted kid of impending doom and then the stinker aces the test anyway!)  He is definitely doing much better now, but I'll have to wait awhile longer to see if it sticks.

 

And today we worked more with Spanish and APHG flashcards.  He isn't as difficult to work with in this area, but he still will not study them on his own.  Either I make him do it with me, or it doesn't get done.  Sigh.  Baby steps, I guess?  In the meantime, I am hopeful he will pick up some of the techniques I use with flashcards so he can use those techniques on his own - write in cursive to force his brain to slow down, come up with an image or example that will make the term stick, do 5-10 cards in a row and if most of them are wrong the first time, do those cards over right away before moving on, etc.

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OP, as I understand it your daughter is 14 and having serious time management issues.

 

Are you telling her what to do and when or are you treating her like a 14 year old and asking her what she will do and when to better manage her time? 

Are you insisting she sit down and explain to you a specific  plan for her daily, weekly, monthly, semesterly and yearly goals that she came up with? 

When she's not on task but should be, do you tell her what to do or do you ask her things like, "What should you be doing right now?" and have her think about it herself and answer it out loud? 

Does she have a prioritized checklist she came up with and explained to you so you can give her feedback? Does she give herself deadlines?  Are they realistic? 

Has she discussed them with you? 

Has she written them down and posted them in a place that makes sense for her situation? 

When something has distracted her are you asking her what she will do about it so it isn't a problem next time?
Does she need to use an ap or some sort of notation so she can record for a month or two to see for herself how her time is being spent?
Do you need to institute some consequences for her spending her time poorly during the hours she should be getting school done?

Many kids, accelerated or not, have not been taught these kinds of things and are going to hit a brick wall in college and the workplace because they haven't transitioned to thinking like adults at all before adulthood. 

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I say start small, safe, and quick. Let them struggle with simpler things first, even if 14 years old, in an environment where they feel safe, and where their 'grit' will pay off quickly. Then move the bar, slowly, to things that are bigger, less safe, and more long-term.

 

You don't become a fast long-distance runner by starting to run daily marathons. I guess you could, but you will also stress your body, possibly damage it, and feel dispondent of ever attaining mastery of the marathon. You start with jog-walk intervals, shorter distances, and measure your success differently (like "I didn't stop" instead of "I beat X time").

 

Your student needs the CouchTo5K of tenacity training.

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Exactly. It doesn't help that her own brain is a good distraction. If she's not fully engaged and interested, she will sit and stare at nothing while she writes stories in her mind.

One additional thought - I have an 8th grader with ADD, who is distracted by her own mind, and takes forever to do things. We have used the "pomodoro" strategy - work 25 minutes, take a 5 min break, repeat.
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