greyseal Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I am having some issues with my 8yo DD, working in the final sections of BA3(A). She is a bright math student, but not terribly fond of struggling in general, which is why I am trying BA. MM has been a breeze for her; she finished level 2 in about 4 months, including successful reviews and assessments. She has been -- wait for it -- struggling with this portion of BA, following along OK when I give her hints, but otherwise losing her cool and getting frustrated when she meets a roadblock of understanding. Today I ended up walking her through a perimeter problem that I do think was a bit outside her ability, to the point where I couldn't really hint so much as walk her through step-by-step. She was unable to do a similar problem without me holding her hand, so to speak. Is it possible that BA simply isn't the right curriculum for her? MM seemed a little too easy, and I thought BA might be a way for her to increase her math potential. I'm having second thoughts as she doesn't seem to want to struggle and work with the numbers the way BA wants her to. Sometimes she simply can't do what they want her to do, at all. Do I give it up and return to "easy" MM full time, or keep encouraging her to go deeper and increase her understanding with BA, staying on a topic until she seems to "get it"? I'm truly baffled, because I want her to increase her ability to tackle considerable challenge, without giving her work that truly is beyond her ability. Many thanks in advance for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 BA simply needs a different approach to solve problems. Some kids get it easily while some others take a lot of practice and handholding. I think that it is fine that she is getting frustrated because it is vastly different from how she is used to solving problems. The whole BA experience taught my son that math was not easy just because he could do most of his existing math effortlessly. You may either continue to hand hold her until she can independently work on BA or you can put it away for a few months and then go back to it. But, BA is great when it comes to developing problem solving skills (especially the star problems), so, please don't give up on it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I have had to ask mine to look back at the vocabulary and explain her thinking to me. That seems reasonable. what you're describing toe seems like more of a need for psychological scaffolding than a math issue. Name the feeling. Take a breath. Remember, the fact that you're not sure what to do is a good thing: that's what learning is about. Just because you don't get it now doesn't mean you'll never get it--it means you're learning. I'm proud to see you taking up this challenge. It's okay to be frustrated--do you want a glass of water? When my DD first did BA , after the initial rush, there was a bit of that emotional coaching. Now she KNOWS it can be challenging and she is proud of attempting it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The whole AoPS philosophy assumes their materials will be put into the hands of math adept students who find typical math books easy. They see a danger in the "I'm going to get 100% right" mentality and very purposefully include problems students very likely won't be able to answer. That is why the solutions are so well developed. In the AoPS way students learn both from successfully answering questions, and from struggling/failing to answer questions (and then following the logic of the provided solutions). This is the way it is in BA and in the AoPS books that follow. It is purposeful. Bill 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 First of all 3A is notoriously hard and also it is the AoPS/BA philosophy that they shouldn't get every problem right, it is ok if some of it is outside her ability, you might have to build-up that tolerance level for frustration. I even remember on their facebook page or website they talked about how it wouldn't be a bad idea to go through the books twice hitting those harder problems. I have always gave ds whatever the support he needed to get through the pages, in the beginning when he was on the younger end of the age range for the books of course that was a lot more than now when he is on the older end, although I still jump in here and there as he doesn't always read the instructions(we're working on this!). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I am finding this discussion helpful, as I have had similar concerns about my DD8. She is not able to answer every question in BA3A, and I have had to give hints and coach her through some of them. I was wondering if perhaps it was too challenging for her and that maybe she was not "gifted" at math. I was also wondering if I might be getting in the way, and should just step back and let her struggle with it some more. She does enjoy BA, though, and will diligently try to work through the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I think it's fine. I also had those feelings through parts of BA - that maybe they were too hard and I was helping too much. Now that we're down the road a little bit, I think it's fine that I helped a good bit sometimes. I have also learned that ds didn't retain some of the more difficult math from BA. He can't do some of the calculations of squares for example. He "got it" at the time because I kept walking him through it and I think it helped his overall math education be richer and more challenging, and I think he "gets" squares better. And I had to decide that was plenty. So, basically, I would urge you to help as much as you think is right. But the flip side of that is, if you're not already supplementing Beast with something else, maybe you want to have pieces of a more traditional program going at the same time - partly for those days when she'd like to do something easy and Beast is too much and partly so that you know she is getting the basics down. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It can take a lot of time and practice to develop patience for problem solving, especially for a student who otherwise has perfectionistic tendencies. I do think that many students will be well-served to have a little review on the side with problems from a traditional program (or later on with regular alcumus use) to keep things fresh for when they need it later. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyseal Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Thanks to all for the input! I greatly appreciate all taking the time to respond. I have not stopped using MM; we're still plugging through level 3, albeit slower than we did RS-B and MM2 due to adding BA. We're working on multiplication facts as well. I was a bit nervous about starting BA to begin with, knowing her discomfort with struggling. I've been doing a few pages of MM with 1 or 2 pages only of BA so as not to stress her out too much. She's a young 3rd grader, only turning 8 last month, so maturity can be an issue. Today we didn't finish the perimeter problem in question, as I thought we might just revisit it tomorrow and go through it again. When things seemed to be at peak frustration, I just put it away and complimented her efforts. I will definitely be putting the advice into action, and keep encouraging DD forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 You could try skipping to perimeter problems in MM for a change of pace, a different approach, or just more practice. We alternate between BA and MEP on different days. BA gets completely done, but then I don't feel the need to do every problem in MEP because it is just providing more practice, review, variety, etc. You may not have looked at the BA placement test if you started at the beginning, but I recall it has the student take the test, you grade it, then the student gets a second chance at the problems they missed. That tends to be how I approach the workbooks, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Triple post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 another duplicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Clearly something went very wrong with my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 a personal record for duplicate posts. Backing away from electronics now. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiegoMom Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 My 9 year old dd does not particularly like math -she came out of PS in fact thinking she was terrible at math. (Having a twin who is almost done with AOPS PreA doesn't help of course!) I got her Beast Academy so that she could get cute cuddly monsters teaching her, and also to assure myself that she is getting well designed and thought out problems. She went through all of level 3 and is about to start level 4. I sat at her elbow the entire time. I helped her with socratic questioning and sometimes outright walking her through the solution. At times, I could tell she was getting very little from it as I was providing so much help. Or sometimes the concepts were well about her ability level. So really it provided 1) cute, cuddly monsters (very important!) and lessons in persistence. That all being said, I use it in conjunction with Singapore. She really understands the Singapore method so much more -- she is a very concrete and visual thinker and Singapore roots most of their problems in real life problems. They are much easier to conceptualize for her. For her twin, who prefers the abstract, he found them quite dull, but for her they are perfect, or would be perfect if only there were cute cuddly monsters. :-) If I had to streamline or budget....for this kid I would very reluctantly give up BA. Thank god I don't have to make that choice though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I didn't have to hand-hold too much in the math part except one section involving dots and diagrams or some such. I did spend a lotta lotta lotta time helping my perfectionist get into the right frame of mind. This included reading about how Beast works, how struggle is necessary, good quotes from Mindset and discussions about mathematicians taking years to solve problems. The funny thing is, it finally sunk in one day when I asked him to say the alphabet. He said it quickly and fluently. I asked him what he had learned from that exercise. He told me he had learned nothing. I asked him if he would get ahead by spending his time on things he already knows or by struggling and a lightbulb went on in his head. He's been pretty good about struggling since. It's a code for us now: "Well do you want to just sit here and recite the alphabet, or do you want to move ahead?" 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 That's a good question and the one I ask myself all the time. My first DS did Beast independently and only needed an occasional help. His brother is another story. He needs help on up to 15% of problems (more on statistics and counting chapters) and because of the handholding hasn't retained as much as I would have liked, similar to Farrar's experience. My older kid who didn't need help completely internalized those concepts and flew through preA at age nine. I am starting to thnk that BA/AoPS might not be the answer for my younger son even though he is a strong math student. I do think that the ability to struggle and solve on your own cements things in the head in a way that handholding doesn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I didn't have to hand-hold too much in the math part except one section involving dots and diagrams or some such. I did spend a lotta lotta lotta time helping my perfectionist get into the right frame of mind. This included reading about how Beast works, how struggle is necessary, good quotes from Mindset and discussions about mathematicians taking years to solve problems. The funny thing is, it finally sunk in one day when I asked him to say the alphabet. He said it quickly and fluently. I asked him what he had learned from that exercise. He told me he had learned nothing. I asked him if he would get ahead by spending his time on things he already knows or by struggling and a lightbulb went on in his head. He's been pretty good about struggling since. It's a code for us now: "Well do you want to just sit here and recite the alphabet, or do you want to move ahead?" I am totally stealing this. We are novice BA users here (my DS is in the perimeter section as well), and I too do my fair share of hand-holding/hinting. Mine is only 6, so I'm not sweating it too much. I figure that he will mature into the struggle. We do supplement with Singapore IP and CWP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 That's a good question and the one I ask myself all the time. My first DS did Beast independently and only needed an occasional help. His brother is another story. He needs help on up to 15% of problems (more on statistics and counting chapters) and because of the handholding hasn't retained as much as I would have liked, similar to Farrar's experience. My older kid who didn't need help completely internalized those concepts and flew through preA at age nine. I am starting to thnk that BA/AoPS might not be the answer for my younger son even though he is a strong math student. I do think that the ability to struggle and solve on your own cements things in the head in a way that handholding doesn't. Fwiw my son just finished the fractions chapter in BA4D yet yesterday I put some in front of him and he completely blanked. I'm not sure if we were having an absent brain day or what but I've not been helping him very much lately, still yet though he is the type of kid that needs a lot of repetition for certain things to stick, BA is our main curriculum and I love it but he needs extra practice and review because that is how he is wired. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetpea3829 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 We also have an 8 yr old kiddo that hated getting problems wrong and was used to getting everything correct, easily, in his math textbook (Singapore). Beast Academy was a struggle for the first few months, but it has really developed in him an ability to overcome challenges...and not just overcome challenges, but to do so in a positive manner. Part of that may be maturity...but I think most of it is thanks to Beast, and an understanding that....we learn from our mistakes. I did sit down with him and go over the fact that AoPS/BA writers don't want the student to get everything correct. That, if he's getting everything correct on the first try, than *I'm* not doing my job challenging him. When we started Beast 3, DS had yet to start Singapore Grade 3, and Beast was a considerable challenge. I did a lot of hand-holding. He complete about half of Beast before we actually started Singapore 3, and then he completed the rest of Beast after completing Singapore 3. It made a big difference...having the Singapore under his belt before working through Beast. He still needed some scaffolding...but he understood the concepts more readily. This year, we are going to complete Singapore 4, or at least certain parts of it, before diving into Beast 4. I think that framework being laid prior to seeing the topics in Beast...I think that's going to make a big difference for him. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 When we started Beast 3, DS had yet to start Singapore Grade 3, and Beast was a considerable challenge. I did a lot of hand-holding. He complete about half of Beast before we actually started Singapore 3, and then he completed the rest of Beast after completing Singapore 3. It made a big difference...having the Singapore under his belt before working through Beast. He still needed some scaffolding...but he understood the concepts more readily. This year, we are going to complete Singapore 4, or at least certain parts of it, before diving into Beast 4. I think that framework being laid prior to seeing the topics in Beast...I think that's going to make a big difference for him. This is my plan. Peter just finished MM2 and we are going to cruise through some of MM3 before we dive into BA3. He's young and emotionally immature and I think the structure and philosophy of BA will be a more manageable challenge if he already has a foundational understanding of the math concepts. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitterpatter Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Well, considering I need some hand-holding for many of Beast's problems, I think it's okay that DD does too. Sometimes, I'm just not quite sure what they're going for so I have to take a quick peak at the solutions to get us going in the right direction. Also, I'm more worried about whether DD gets the regular problems than the starred ones. Although, sometimes she struggles more with the regular problems than some of the starred. She's always so happy and proud when she gets the starred ones right, especially the ones that came easy to her. It builds her confidence. Her frustration tolerance is very low, but I'm noticing it's getting a little better with Beast. Knowing that Beast is just hard sometimes helps her somehow. She's more willing to puzzle it out than say when she gets something wrong in Singapore. I am a little worried about how much DD's learning since there's no reviews/tests, but she's gone from hating math to looking forward to it every day, so I guess that's something. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I did sit down with him and go over the fact that AoPS/BA writers don't want the student to get everything correct. That, if he's getting everything correct on the first try, than *I'm* not doing my job challenging him. Yes! I told him if he's not missing some problems, it's too easy and we're wasting his time doing what he already knows how to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Today we didn't finish the perimeter problem in question, as I thought we might just revisit it tomorrow and go through it again. When things seemed to be at peak frustration, I just put it away and complimented her efforts. I do this, too. Often there's just one starred problem at the end of a page that's giving my son trouble, and I've learned it's not worth the potential tears and frustration if I force him to finish the page just so we can move on. It usually goes much better if we come back to it the next day when he's fresh. Some of us discussed Richard Rusczyk's (of AOPS) presentation from the WTM Online Conference in the spring, but if you haven't watched it, I'd highly recommend it. It really helped me understand the philosophy behind AOPS and Beast, and it helped me relax about my son's mistakes and the amount of help he sometimes needs. Check out the Beast FAQ, too, for some more thoughts on problem-solving. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyseal Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Thank you, Kate! I will definitely watch that presentation and take a closer look at the Beast FAQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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