Kate or other math people, should I switch curriculum? RS to MM.

[ScoutTN]

Ds 8 is mildly dyslexic and very wiggly. Not hyper, but definitely has attention/focus issues. He is cross dominant, writes with his left but throws a ball with his right. He reads well, but doesn't love it. Classic would-rather-build-forts sort of boy.

 

He is a 2nd grader this year and has completed Right Start A and B. Our summer break was longer than anticipated because my Dh had brain surgery in early August. I have spent three solid weeks reviewing and he is ok on addition facts within 10, very weak on addition facts under 20. Weak on addition strategies, though we have reviewed them.

 

I am thinking that the spiral of RS and its occasional conceptual jumps are not a good fit for him. Wondering if the more obviously incremental mastery (and still strong conceptual) approach of MM would help him. Maybe he needs to camp on things longer?  I have taught RS all the way through E and could still use the abacus, place value cards, games etc to reinforce and add a tactile-kinesthetic dimension.

 

MM has a different scope and sequence, so I would give him the 1st grade end of year test and go from there. I own all the levels. 

 

Or should I stay with RS C? I know that he will get his math facts eventually, but I am concerned that he doesn't seem to understand the addition well. I don't want to move on until his foundation is solid. 

 

Moms who have btdt or who are experienced math teachers, I'd love your thoughts. I am not naturally a math person and a poor math education handicapped me, so I am resolved to make sure my kids are well-equipped in this area.

 

 

 

 

[kiwik]

For yourself I would go through the videos on Education Unboxed.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I really would like to hear what Kate and the other folks say. FWIW, I just did a pretty extensive review of MM for the new edition of TWTM, and while I think the program is awesome at teaching mathematical thinking, I also think it's a problematic choice for a parent who's not comfortable with math. It is absolutely not "self-teaching" like the website says, and there's very little teacher support.

 

SWB

[8filltheheart]

I am unfamiliar with RS, but I own several levels of MM.

 

I have 3 dyslexics impacted on varying levels. All of them thrived (and continue to in terms of my 10 yo) with Horizons. Its spiral nature builds concepts and constantly reinforces past concepts. When I purchased MM and went through the books (myself, not with my children), I was not prompted to feel Horizon's was inferior or that MM took kids' conceptual understanding to a different level. MM in my opinion covers the same material as Horizons except in a mastery approach instead of spiral. Having been all the way through Horizons 6 complete times now I can see how each step builds the concepts toward the final objectives. I also did not want to switch to mastery.

 

I do play games with my kids who need additional practice with rapid recall. War with cards and flipping up 2 cards and adding them/multiplying them to see who is winner, etc. Or dividing a piece of paper into 3 columns and rolling a die and adding/subtracting each roll and racing up and down to 100/0. Dominoes work, too.

 

Math-It might be helpful for fact recall as well.

[ScoutTN]

Helpful ideas, 8 and SWB, thanks.

 

I am comfortable teaching arithmetic and have manged to get Dd to grade 5 with success. Algebra and beyond I know we will outsource. I have spent a good bit of time since we began homeschooling 5 years ago learning elementary math from a conceptual approach. Everything from Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics to Zaccaro books, Singapore CWP and now working on PreAlgebra with TabletClass and MM. 

As a family, we read lots of living math books too. Dh likes math and thinks it is fun. Math, art and music are his strong suits.

 

I would not expect an 8 yo to just work MM independently, but would teach and walk him through it. same as I do now. All of his school is mom-at-elbow, except independent reading.

 

We are not in a position to spend any money on new curriculum right now. We are living on Dh's disability pay and facing some large medical bills. I have all of RS and MM and a number of supplementary books. When Dh goes back to work and the big bills are paid, we may have some wiggle room again. I can probably borrow a Horizon book to look at it.

 

 

 

 

 

[go_go_gadget]

How was he doing before your break? I know I've heard that some schools end up spending the first month or two reviewing the end of the previous year, because long breaks aren't conducive to math education for many kids. I totally understand why yours was longer this year and you did exactly what you needed to, but it seems more than reasonable to spend a month or two reteaching after a long break. In other words, I wouldn't immediately assume that there's a problem with the curriculum, and in a situation in which in a non-mathy parent has experience with and is comfortable with a curriculum, I'd prefer to rule out other possibilities before switching.

 

I wouldn't move on to RS C in this circumstance, but if he was doing better before the break, I would keep doing all the RS activities, and re-do the lessons on addition and place value in RS B. You can always make your own worksheets. If after practicing for a month or two he still doesn't have it, or if he didn't have it before the break, either, then I'd consider a curriculum change. I can't speak to how well MM might work for you in this situation, except that if the break might have impacted him, I would stick with a spiral program, not switch to mastery.

[wapiti]

My two cents:  I agree with the likelihood of needing more review due to the break.  In other words, if you're planning to use placement tests for another program, do some review first so that your results are more accurate.

 

I haven't really used the lower levels of MM much, but generally speaking, one of its advantages is its flexibility in what you assign and when.  (Any mastery program could be as flexible, but there's something about having all the teaching and exercises in one book that makes this logistically easy.)  I do think it's helpful to be comfortable with teaching math, as you seem to be, in order to utilize this flexibility to fit the program to your student.  I would anticipate that you may need to add in more frequent review (weekly? daily?) than only at the end of each chapter.  Don't forget that there are also cumulative reviews for each chapter in a separate folder, or at least there used to be.

 

(I hope your dh is recovering well.  My dh had brain surgery during the year I was homeschooling and it was so stressful that I compartmentalized that and probably wasn't sufficiently present for him, IYKWIM.)

[kateingr]

If you felt like your son was shaky throughout RightStart B, it's probably time for a change. On the other hand, if he's struggling with the addition facts, but you feel like he generally understood what he was doing in RightStart B, it might be a little too soon to tell. 

 

I'd suggest experimenting with using the addition fact sections of Math Mammoth Grade 1 and 2 for a while. He may just need some focused time on the addition facts, or a different presentation for them. I'd especially recommend you incorporate as many real objects and situations as possible as you go through those sections. Both RightStart and Math Mammoth keep math pretty theoretical in their addition sections--you're always adding beads on the abacus, or pictures of objects, but never actual things--so it might help your son grasp addition better if it got brought back to earth a bit. You can add groups of crayons, books, or marshmallows, but some concreteness may help a lot. (But do try to keep your the real stuff organized in groups of "five and some more" or "ten and some more" to help your son connect it to the strategies he already knows.) 

 

After you've tried out some sections of MM, you'll have a better sense of whether it's a good fit for him (and for you). I agree with Susan that is definitely not a self-teaching program. But, you've clearly worked hard to equip yourself to teach math well, and you'd be able to put your skills to good use with MM. :) 

[Farrar]

To Scout, I would say, yes, maybe MM would be a better choice. It's definitely incremental and there's lots of slow and steady scaffolding of concepts. My worry for a dyslexic kid would be the page layout. I don't know a ton about dyslexia, but I would guess that a page with more blank space would be better. We used it before the revamps and I found it so crowded and overwhelming (which was a big part of why it was a no go for my anxious kid). I've seen the new version, but it didn't seem that much better to me. Still, I haven't used it and that may not actually be a concern for you.

 

To SWB and the larger question of whether or not it does provide enough support... I really think it does. It's definitely not self-teaching and I wish Maria Miller would take that claim away. However, we used it for several years and what I felt was that the bulk of the teaching was in the structure of the problems. While other curricula rely on the parent/teacher to sit down with the student(s) to introduce or teach concepts in some way and to coach kids through at least some elements as they learn, what MM does is to push the kid learn by doing. It sounds like it would require a lot of conceptual leaps, but the steps are so super-incremental and the way it's introduced and the problems are structured is so purposeful. I have experience teaching math in a classroom and I have to say that I had to learn to stop trying to jump the gun when I was using it with ds. I kept wanting to push ahead faster and introduce the underpinnings or the big ideas or the eventual end goal algorithm. I had to learn that MM would get there every time, just slow and steady.

 

Basically, I think the teaching really is there all on the page. The role of the parent really becomes a coach and supporter - it's unlikely that a 7 yo has the focus to read and not be overwhelmed by doing math in a vacuum, so the parent is still much more essential than the MM sales pitch would lead one to believe. But there's not a need for the sort of traditional lessons because of the way the work is structured. Of course, the parent also has to watch for if the child is stuck or struggling, but MM has extra pages of practice for just that. And each section has teaching suggestions and links to online games. I think a lot of people ignore those resources but they're in there.

 

I'm sure that some people end up with kids who don't mesh with MM or can't seem to get a certain topic from MM, but I don't think that's MM's fault exactly. I think that happens for kids with every program from Saxon to CLE to Singapore there are kids who just can't seem to get it and parents who aren't going to be able to make it work.

 

MM was all the rage when we first started homeschooling. Now it doesn't seem to be the big thing anymore. And my ds who used it for four years isn't using it any more. It stopped "clicking" with him and he requested that we change things up. But it's so well priced and such a solid program. I can't imagine it wouldn't go into the new TWTM edition.

[Momto6inIN]

I am unfamiliar with RS, but I own several levels of MM.

 

I have 3 dyslexics impacted on varying levels. All of them thrived (and continue to in terms of my 10 yo) with Horizons. Its spiral nature builds concepts and constantly reinforces past concepts. When I purchased MM and went through the books (myself, not with my children), I was not prompted to feel Horizon's was inferior or that MM took kids' conceptual understanding to a different level. MM in my opinion covers the same material as Horizons except in a mastery approach instead of spiral. Having been all the way through Horizons 6 complete times now I can see how each step builds the concepts toward the final objectives. I also did not want to switch to mastery.

 

I do play games with my kids who need additional practice with rapid recall. War with cards and flipping up 2 cards and adding them/multiplying them to see who is winner, etc. Or dividing a piece of paper into 3 columns and rolling a die and adding/subtracting each roll and racing up and down to 100/0. Dominoes work, too.

 

Math-It might be helpful for fact recall as well.

8FillTheHeart,

I have a question about Horizons and my DD and the placement test, but I don't want to derail the thread. Can I PM you?

Thanks!

 

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry to hear about your DH.  

 

You can create your own version of a Math-It type approach.  I have done so before b/c I lent mine to someone who never returned it and we moved before I remembered she had it!  I searched for a thread where it is described and there is a link to another website, Michelle's something (I would have to go back and look) where she describes a similar approach in greater detail.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/122525-math-facts-blind-spot/

 

I would try using its approach with concrete objects initially.  I would show and why the methods work.   I would probably put away all textbooks for a while and just spend time playing around with numbers and their relationships.   If he is a kinesthetic learner, jumping is a fun way to work on math facts.  I have drawn number lines in chalk to leap along.  I have also created a hopscotch box with only higher numbers.  You call out the problem and they get to jump to the answer.  

[8filltheheart]

8FillTheHeart,

I have a question about Horizons and my DD and the placement test, but I don't want to derail the thread. Can I PM you?

Thanks!

 

 

Sure.  I'm getting ready to shift back into gear, though, so I am not sure when I will get a chance to reply.

[KSinNS]

No experience with RS. My experience with MM was it was fine for my focused, mathy kid. My unfocused daughter did okay with the early stuff, but the cluttered layout was a problem lots of skipping problems and such. Also, I want using it for review not teaching. I think it would have been a bad fit for her for a primary curriculum. For D, who is mathy but restless and unfocused, he likes it but it leads to lots of screaming. It is cramped, and I find some of the explanations confusing. I certainly do need to teach, which is fine and I like math. If you have it, give it a try, at least to review the stuff your kid is shaky on. If it's a bust, then you can look at other things. CLE is popular for this type of kid and affordable , but try what you have. It may be a fit!

[ScoutTN]

Y'all have given me some good things to think about. Thank you!

 

He did seem to be okay with addition, even 4 digit addition with regrouping, last year. Never strong on math facts recall  for sums over

10, but ok on sums 10 and under.  He was fine on time, money, measuring etc. I think we will spend another month or so on review of addition with lots of tangible things, motion, games and songs. Then I will reassess.  

 

 

 

 

[scoutingmom]

You are using RS edition 1? Look again at level C. It does start with review.... and that review is on solidifying the addition facts. I would go on to C, spending lots of time with the games thst work on the facts. It goes through a strategy.... so after that play the games that support that strategy. Then do the lessons that review the next one. Etc.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Momofeat]

Is it possible to use both?

 

My son is probably dyslexic, and he has been making significant progress with RS Level C & Singapore Primary Math. He recently tested slightly above grade level in math, even though he didn't bother to use paper & pencil to solve the problems. :tongue_smilie:

 

I used MM to give my girls extra practice whenever they were stuck on a concept. I've never used the complete curriculum, though, so I do not know how well it would for a child with dyslexia.

[ScoutTN]

You are using RS edition 1? Look again at level C. It does start with review.... and that review is on solidifying the addition facts. I would go on to C, spending lots of time with the games thst work on the facts. It goes through a strategy.... so after that play the games that support that strategy. Then do the lessons that review the next one. Etc.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

We are using the 2nd edition and it too begins with review of the strategies. He doesn't seem to remember them consistently or use them well, that it why I am concerned. We have been playing the games daily.

[ScoutTN]

Is it possible to use both?

 

My son is probably dyslexic, and he has been making significant progress with RS Level C & Singapore Primary Math. He recently tested slightly above grade level in math, even though he didn't bother to use paper & pencil to solve the problems. :tongue_smilie:

 

I used MM to give my girls extra practice whenever they were stuck on a concept. I've never used the complete curriculum, though, so I do not know how well it would for a child with dyslexia.

Yes, I have used it for extra practice for several years too.

[ScoutTN]

If you felt like your son was shaky throughout RightStart B, it's probably time for a change. On the other hand, if he's struggling with the addition facts, but you feel like he generally understood what he was doing in RightStart B, it might be a little too soon to tell.

 

I'd suggest experimenting with using the addition fact sections of Math Mammoth Grade 1 and 2 for a while. He may just need some focused time on the addition facts, or a different presentation for them. I'd especially recommend you incorporate as many real objects and situations as possible as you go through those sections. Both RightStart and Math Mammoth keep math pretty theoretical in their addition sections--you're always adding beads on the abacus, or pictures of objects, but never actual things--so it might help your son grasp addition better if it got brought back to earth a bit. You can add groups of crayons, books, or marshmallows, but some concreteness may help a lot. (But do try to keep your the real stuff organized in groups of "five and some more" or "ten and some more" to help your son connect it to the strategies he already knows.)

 

After you've tried out some sections of MM, you'll have a better sense of whether it's a good fit for him (and for you). I agree with Susan that is definitely not a self-teaching program. But, you've clearly worked hard to equip yourself to teach math well, and you'd be able to put your skills to good use with MM. :)

Dd suggested we use chocolate chips as objects to practice adding. A girl after my own heart! ;)

[kiana]

Dd suggested we use chocolate chips as objects to practice adding. A girl after my own heart! ;)

 

I preferred using candy to model subtraction. After all, what should be done with subtracted candy? :D

[Susan Wise Bauer]

To SWB and the larger question of whether or not it does provide enough support... I really think it does. It's definitely not self-teaching and I wish Maria Miller would take that claim away. However, we used it for several years and what I felt was that the bulk of the teaching was in the structure of the problems. While other curricula rely on the parent/teacher to sit down with the student(s) to introduce or teach concepts in some way and to coach kids through at least some elements as they learn, what MM does is to push the kid learn by doing. It sounds like it would require a lot of conceptual leaps, but the steps are so super-incremental and the way it's introduced and the problems are structured is so purposeful. I have experience teaching math in a classroom and I have to say that I had to learn to stop trying to jump the gun when I was using it with ds. I kept wanting to push ahead faster and introduce the underpinnings or the big ideas or the eventual end goal algorithm. I had to learn that MM would get there every time, just slow and steady.

 

 

Farrar--I do think it's a good program, and we'll be recommending it in the new TWTM. In support of my evaluation, though, I would like to point out that what you--an experienced math teacher--find to be "enough support" might not seem like enough at all to someone who is uncertain with math. The OP did mention that she thought her own math education was lacking, so she's in a very different position than someone who feels confident enough with math to teach it in a classroom setting.

 

SWB

[ScoutTN]

I preferred using candy to model subtraction. After all, what should be done with subtracted candy? :D

exactly!!

[blue plaid]

I think your plan sounds good.  I love Right Start B and used it with my two older kids, but my youngest's eyes would well up with tears when I pulled out the Right Start manipulatives and he had a lot of trouble focusing with it being mostly oral.  He was happier and more focused when we switched to a textbook and workbook format (Math in Focus), but near the end of his first grade year when that program made some leaps he wasn't ready for, I pulled out Math Mammoth.  We focused on math facts at the end of last year (first grade) and he is going through the second grade program from the beginning this year.  It is not magic, but I do feel he is showing steady improvement in knowing and using his math facts.  My older kids (4th and 5th grade) have done some Math Mammoth in the past and are mostly using it this year as well.  

 

So I have to say I was really shocked with the criticisms about Math Mammoth offered by SWB!  But, I love math and have taught some college level courses so may indeed be blind to it not having enough teacher support.  I agree that it is not completely self-teaching for the student, but I can't really imagine any math (or other important) curriculum I would turn over to my early elementary student to do completely independently.  For me, the instruction it provides at times is enough for my students to understand by themselves, and always is enough to give me the words to explain a concept and add to the explanations as needed.   Over the years we've dabbled in Singapore, Math in Focus, Beast Academy, and Math Mammoth, and I feel the instruction in Math Mammoth is better and more thorough than using Singapore or Math in Focus textbooks without a teacher's/home instruction guide.  So just wanted to throw out my opinion :)

[athomeontheprairie]

SWB, it annoys me that I cannot like your posts. So consider your last post liked. :-)

 

And I've enjoyed your review of mm and Farrar's. It's helpful to me as a mom with a kids in rs g and one struggling through b. I've struggled worth whether or not it's her or the program. This discussion is timely for me

[PeterPan]

RS C was good through the middle (4 digit subtraction), but we should have jumped at that point.

 

The problems you're describing are probably connected back to his dyslexia and ADHD, and they're not going to be resolved by going to a highly print-dominant text.  You have a dc with a print disability, so you need to go to another multi-sensory curriculum.  Your real issue is that RS isn't actually broken down ENOUGH for a dc with SLDs.  Might work for some, but for my ds (SLD math, reading, writing, keep going with the labels), I'm using Ronit Bird.  RB is the only thing *I* can think of that would bust through your problem.  My dd struggled with math facts for years thanks to RightStart and her ADHD brain.  It's a mistake I'm NOT making this time.  My ds does Ronit Bird.  It's everything you *liked* about RightStart with everything you *need* for a dc who has SLDs.

 

Btw, the single best thing you can do right now (besides of course getting stuff from RB) is play games.  Start with Go Nuts.  It's simple, affordable, and hits a ton of useful skills at once.  1 X Gamewright Games Go Nuts!  You're hitting working memory (they have to hold their previous number while they roll, remove splats/cars, and then add the new number on), number sense (recognizing small quantities without counting), comparisons/number sense/estimation (whose total is higher, look at the columns and compare), 2 digit mental math (adding the scores, we cross out the amounts that are equal and add what remains), etc.  Lots of skills, one short game.  And if you need social skills and speech, like us, well you're getting that too!

 

RB's Resource book has fun games too.  RB has tons of games.  You can just blend and shake it up. But RB I *highly* recommend.  Also come over to LC and gab.  :)

[cindydanleo]

I have used CLE math all the way through 3rd with my dyslexic 9 yo boy. It became way too much in the 3rd book of 3rd grade. He just wasn't making the physical connection of numbers. I dont know if I can explain this accurately b/c I dont really understand it myself but....sums like 8+6 confound him and CLE focuses on memorization for the most part which he has trouble with. He has trouble counting forward 6 more from 8. I have since switched to MM and started way back in the middle 1st grade. He is finally making connections. Turning 8 into a 10 by taking 2 away from 6 really makes sense to him. He asked me the other day..."Why didn't you ever tell me that before?". Funny thing is...I've used 1st grade MM before when he was 6 and he just wasn't ready for it. It made him cry. Now he is flying through it and loving it. He is making connections his brain wasnt ready for before.

[Vida Winter]

If it is the facts that he is shaky on, I would introduce games that help memorization. RS card games would be perfect. I am also a strong advocate of supplementing any math curriculum with Khan Academy. It can be started at any level and then the student can move up or down at will. Even advanced students like to "drop down" to lower levels and do easy problems for fun, earn some badges and give their brain a rest. That energizes them to hop up to higher levels and tackle harder problems.

 

 

 

[My3girls]

We have a used MM for 3 years, now, and I really like the incremental approach.  Occassionally, I have to get involved with "teaching" a little, but as another poster stated the brief lesson written to the student is enough for me to be able to present it to them.  I am a bit mathy but by no means a math teacher.  I think if you did well in basic math in school then you could easily use MM.    However, the layout is not for everyone.  I know no one IRL that uses it. lol  I have had a few friends who asked to sample mine, but then decided against using it.  One went with MUS, one with Saxon, and I am not sure what the third ended up with.  Since you already own it, there is no harm in giving it a try.  You should know if it's going to work for you within a short time.  Good luck!

[Farrar]

Farrar--I do think it's a good program, and we'll be recommending it in the new TWTM. In support of my evaluation, though, I would like to point out that what you--an experienced math teacher--find to be "enough support" might not seem like enough at all to someone who is uncertain with math. The OP did mention that she thought her own math education was lacking, so she's in a very different position than someone who feels confident enough with math to teach it in a classroom setting.

 

SWB

 

But my point - which I probably did a poor job of making - was that I felt confident to jump off the MM "script" but it didn't actually end up serving us very well while we were using the program. Instead, I had to learn that the program knew best and would get around to teaching all the things that needed to be taught, just in such a slow and incremental way. It's always hard to evaluate if you know something already if a program is doing a good job of teaching, but from that experience, I do feel like MM has enough structure for a parent who doesn't feel confident to jump script. It's very different from RS in presentation, but I think it provides plenty.

 

I also think it makes sense that Scout decided to stick it out with Right Start though. I think all the elementary math options you hear talked about here are right for some kid or other (says the person who ended up with twins doing radically different math programs).