Trigger warning re sexual assault: Is this rape culture in the medical prof? ( journal article)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have none :( My concern was purely personal. It wasn't meant as derogatory at all. I go with my sister sometimes because of it. She absolutely abhors going to the doctor or being at a hospital. It doesn't bother me like it does her. But I understand why it's hard for her. I'm not good at the advice part. I end up more in the support and encouragement role.

 

aww, well that's an awesome thing for you to do (going there with her)

 

I'm sure that helps

[goldberry]

he did knock it off when told to

 

Not saying his actions were ideal, but I can kinda imagine saying really weird shi* in that circumstance.

 

I've had people sticking their hands way up there.  TMI.  I was awake and I cracked jokes at them about it because that helped me diffuse the situation.  Of course it's different if "I" am cracking the jokes.

 

I think the different circumstances highlight the power differential though.  A patient during a medical procedure is in the most helpless position possible.  Especially under anasthesia, they are putting themselves entirely in the medical staff's hands to be cared for and yes, treated with respect.  

 

That's why I see that differently even than joking after the fact outside the person's presence.  Although I agree with some other posters that even that shows a lack of respect.  Not quite as severe though, again because of the power differential.

[Liz CA]

Yes, they may be human. Yes, they may be assholes. However, they can and should keep it to the staff room or areas where patients are not. Patients have been able to overhear these doctors, even if they were technically "under". Lord knows what is in our subconscious from these occurrences.  

 

Very true. I distinctly heard my surgeon say something and remembered it clearly. Fortunately it was nothing derogatory at all but you cannot know what people recall. Also some people are quite immobile, almost paralyzed, but still can feel and hear.

 

But really what the patient hears or recalls it quite beside the issue. Again, I feel the issue is self-control and impulse control. And even if a doctor is thinking something inappropriate or stupid he/ she should have enough marbles to keep it to him/herself much less acting out.

[Bluegoat]

I don't really find "rape culture" a particularly useful term.

 

And I don't think I'd call the incident with the singing dr a sexual assault in any way the term is normally used - totally inappropriate and jerkish, but it wasn't done for sexual purposes or probably even really considering it in that light at all, and having his hand in her vagina was legitimate. (I'm a little skeptical that they said the other guy had hemorrhoids in order to somehow humiliate him - it sounds more like some sort of charting error, or - he has them internally and doesn't know.)

 

I think that in a lot of cases, drs who are working on a patient who is not conscious are really not thinking of them  personally - to some degree, depersonalizing the body is probably necessary whenever someone - be it a doctor or someone who does bikini waxing - is doing something that would normally be considered quite intimate.  I think that can be especially common with surgeons, because they are often doing what amounts to carpentry on the body - it takes some significant detachment to cut someone open and slice bits of them out.

 

I think its very common in those kinds of situations for people who are inclined to humour to think about the body in ways that can seem offensive - especially if its stressful work with long hours, people will talk together.  I think it is in a way similar to the kinds of humour you get sometimes among soldiers - it can be a bit dark.  Medical humour too isn't what a lot of people think of as table talk, and really people are going to notice things about bodies when they work with them all day.  I used to read a comic medical magazine from time to time, and it wouldn't be fun reading for squeamish people.

 

So - I think it is pretty easy for people to go astray if they aren't making real efforts to remember that the body they are working on has a personality attached to it - there are efforts to do this, its considered an important part of good practice, but it is also I think important to realize there are reasons that kind of detachment is likely to happen without care. I think its probably to be expected that sometimes the things the doctors and nurses discuss among themselves might seem off-putting to the patients, but I'm not sure its possible or necessary or a good idea to totally try and stamp that out. 

[Bluegoat]

It's better to keep those thoughts to one's self for sure, but really this doesn't register on my rage meter at all.  If someone wants to have weird thoughts about my labia while operating on it, what the hell ever. 

 

I hate to sound so insensitive, but i sometimes think we go a little overboard on expecting perfection in people all the time. 

 

I've had far worse experiences than these comments.  I thought that is what the article was going to be about. 

 

TBH I have thoughts like that all the time about people - when you are seeing a bunch of naked bodies in the shower every day it stops seeming private, and all kinds of odd things pop into your head.  But it isn't really sexual at all, its just body parts.  And of course people are going to notice other people's bodies, and bodies can be pretty funny at times.

 

People for some reason expect aestheticism and hairdressers not to notice things either, but of course they do, and they talk about it as well among themselves.  Talking is often how people become comfortable with things.

 

Some people seem to have a poor "just don't say that" filter.

[Runningmom80]

Well that's disturbing.  I just had an open hernia repair and a d&c done at the same time, about 3 weeks ago.  I did voice concern over what happens when the first doctor is done and the second dr comes in.  They reassured me I'd be taken care of, but still.  I had my legs in stirrups while I was unconscious. 

 

Thank goodness I didn't read this before I had surgery.  My husband would have had to listen to way more neurotic freak outs.

[Murphy101]

Dark humor doesn't bother me. I'm somewhat known for having tendencies to dark humor myself.

 

I also don't expect people to stop being human.

 

These were not examples of dark humor coping after the fact or patients expecting doctors to be perfect people.

 

There wasn't anything funny about it or unusually high standard expected.

 

Don't be an ahole and act professional while working on a patient is not some crazy unrealistic standard for anyone to expect of anyone else, and it isn't for doctors either.

 

Biggest cop out excuse I've ever heard.

 

Sure there's locker room talk and decompression venting among peers after the job is done. Hopefully they manage to keep it general and not specific to patients bc in theory HIPPA means they need to shut up about patients.

 

These are not unreasonable expectations.

[Bluegoat]

Dark humor doesn't bother me. I'm somewhat known for having tendencies to dark humor myself.

 

I also don't expect people to stop being human.

 

These were not examples of dark humor coping after the fact or patients expecting doctors to be perfect people.

 

There wasn't anything funny about it or unusually high standard expected.

 

Don't be an ahole and act professional while working on a patient is not some crazy unrealistic standard for anyone to expect of anyone else, and it isn't for doctors either.

 

Biggest cop out excuse I've ever heard.

 

Sure there's locker room talk and decompression venting among peers after the job is done. Hopefully they manage to keep it general and not specific to patients bc in theory HIPPA means they need to shut up about patients.

 

These are not unreasonable expectations.

 

It's not a cop out, or even an excuse.  It's an explanation for why it tends to happen in that particular kind of setting, and it a disagreement  that the reason is "rape culture."  Everything has an explanation, and it is useful to try and find the right one. (Though, not everyone actually finds all those things completely beyond the pale.  I wonder about the colonoscopy guy in particular, and I probably wouldn't care about the labia-commentator if I was the patient either.)

 

I'm not suggesting either that it is mainly about coping, as from a trauma.  I think it is a very natural tendency when you also are asking people to professionalize their relation to other people's bodies, because that also tends to have them depersonalize them.  Which is what we ask them to do - we don't want doctors making the relationship personal in that way.

 

With doctors who talk a lot to patients, I think its much less likely to happen that there is such an object relation to the body.  But it seems much more common with doctors who do not normally talk to patients much, and I think that makes psychological sense.

 

There are a lot of instances where we ask people to take on a particular role or attitude that means they can easily fall into particular undesirable ways of thinking.  We ask soldiers to kill people, but we don't want them to hate the enemy in a personal way, or treat the dead disrespectfully.  Perhaps impossible to totally prevent those things, and doing so at all will require real care.  If you want surgeons to have the confidence to use a jig-saw on a live person, they is probably going to be a strong tendency to disassociate.  If you have a team that looks at colons all day, there may be a tendency for them to forget that you have particular feelings for your colon.  It's like asking a person to regularly violate a social taboo - they may stop feeling the force of the taboo altogether.

 

I don't think trying to fix rape culture is likely to do much about this sort of behavior.

 

[Murphy101]

It's not a cop out, or even an excuse. It's an explanation for why it tends to happen in that particular kind of setting, and it a disagreement that the reason is "rape culture."

I'm willing to set aside the term rape culture in this instance bc of the lack of sexual reference. However, I do see why that would resonate bc rape isn't about sex, it's about power and these are most certainly examples of men in positions of power using that position to demean others.

 

Everything has an explanation, and it is useful to try and find the right one. (Though, not everyone actually finds all those things completely beyond the pale. I wonder about the colonoscopy guy in particular, and I probably wouldn't care about the labia-commentator if I was the patient either.)

It is beyond the pale and the fact that we are even discussing it shows how awful it is that this is in any way even being discussed as possibly acceptable.

 

The colonoscopy staff should be point blank fired. They were not just unprofessional in attitude and comments, they falsified on his medical records.

 

The doctors with the OB/gyn patients should at least be sanctioned.

 

It is excuses. And BS ones at that. One does not put on a lab coat and get a pass for treating someone like that.

 

And no, being professional does not mean depersonalizing people. I don't have to get to know someone to not treat them like garbage.

 

There are a lot of instances where we ask people to take on a particular role or attitude that means they can easily fall into particular undesirable ways of thinking. We ask soldiers to kill people, but we don't want them to hate the enemy in a personal way, or treat the dead disrespectfully. Perhaps impossible to totally prevent those things, and doing so at all will require real care. If you want surgeons to have the confidence to use a jig-saw on a live person, they is probably going to be a strong tendency to disassociate. If you have a team that looks at colons all day, there may be a tendency for them to forget that you have particular feelings for your colon. It's like asking a person to regularly violate a social taboo - they may stop feeling the force of the taboo altogether.

 

And one way to fix that is to not accept it. Calling them on breaking that taboo and making sure they suffer repercussions for it up to and including being removed from their position.

 

Idk. I'm not buying what you're selling on this one.

 

We keep seeing these types of problems and people keep making excuses and choosing to be defensive about it instead of offensive against it.

 

Doctor abuses a patient. Well at least she didn't die. If anyone else did it, the fact that their victim didn't die would not usually be enough to exonerate them from years of suffering consequences for it. But well... S/he was a doctor.

Teacher locks a kid up or ties him up or who knows what. If a parent did the exact same thing? All hell would break out in their lives. But well... she was an excellent teacher to those other kids.

 

It's nothing more than institutionalizd abuse being perpetuated as an acceptable fact of life for the people who have no choice but to use those institutions.

 

It's not doctor bashing.

 

It's a problem.

 

And every time a doctor or teacher or ____ is more interested in excuses and insisting on the good intentions of those who abuse their position, rather than just stating up front this is a problem and unacceptable? They perpetuate it. And they cause even less respect and trust in those institutions.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would say that it contributes to rape culture at least in that it treats people as objects - and that as well as the power dynamic referred to by Martha - is part of rape culture.  It may not treat them as "desireable sexual objects" but I don't think that desire is aways or even often part of it.  They are using sexual terms to demean some of the people at least.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I had a doctor once who crossed the line big time.  For one thing, he went on and on about how beautiful I was (this was many many years and pounds ago).  Then he told me to get ready for a vaginal exam.  I was there for an earache - something that I was very clear about.  I told him that I would change, waited until he was out of the room, grabbed my purse and ran into the hall.  I ran into the P.A. - a man.  I told him what happened and why I was leaving.  He was great.  He told me that I was absolutely right to flee and told me to call the medical director.  The medical director on the other hand, was totally in CYA mode.  She suggested that it was a problem of the hispanic doctor not understanding me, which was racist in and of itself since he spoke excellent English.  I refused to accept her alternate suggestions.  I have no idea if he was actually disciplined but I never saw him again.  

[Bluegoat]

I'm willing to set aside the term rape culture in this instance bc of the lack of sexual reference. However, I do see why that would resonate bc race isn't about sex, it's about power and these are most certainly examples of men in positions of power using that position to demean others.

 

 

It is beyond the pale and the fact that we are even discussing it shows how awful it is that this is in any way even being discussed as possibly acceptable.

 

The colonoscopy staff should be point blank fired. They were not just unprofessional in attitude and comments, they falsified on his medical records.

 

The doctors with the OB/gyn patients should at least be sanctioned.

 

It is excuses. And BS ones at that. One does not put on a lab coat and get a pass for treating someone like that.

 

And no, being professional does not mean depersonalizing people. I don't have to get to know someone to not treat them like garbage.

 

 

And one way to fix that is to not accept it. Calling them on breaking that taboo and making sure they suffer repercussions for it up to and including being removed from their position.

 

Idk. I'm not buying what you're selling on this one.

 

We keep seeing these types of problems and people keep making excuses and choosing to be defensive about it instead of offensive against it.

 

Doctor abuses a patient. Well at least she didn't die. If anyone else did it, the fact that their victim didn't die would not usually be enough to exonerate them from years of suffering consequences for it. But well... S/he was a doctor.

Teacher locks a kid up or ties him up or who knows what. If a parent did the exact same thing? All hell would break out in their lives. But well... she was an excellent teacher to those other kids.

 

It's nothing more than institutionalizd abuse being perpetuated as an acceptable fact of life for the people who have no choice but to use those institutions.

 

It's not doctor bashing.

 

It's a problem.

 

And every time a doctor or teacher or ____ is more interested in excuses and insisting on the good intentions of those who abuse their position, rather than just stating up front this is a problem and unacceptable? They perpetuate it. And they cause even less respect and trust in those institutions.

 

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to sell.  I also did not say that depersonalizing others had to mean objectifying them - but it may make it more likely - that seems to be a pattern in a lot of human behavior.  It doesn't always seem to relate to holding power over them either - people quite often do it to those who are in a position of power in relation to themselves as well.

 

I think that this idea that rape is all about power and not sex is terribly reductive, and it becomes totally incoherent.  If rape is just about power, and so we can call any abuse of power rape, does that make playground bullying, totalitarian regimes, and controlling mothers examples of rape-culture?  It just makes no sense to speak that way.  Jerk doctors isn't even a particularly male thing.  It isn't consistent with the normal use or meaning of the word sex or sexual (if someone is sexually aroused because of power, that is sexual.)  I also think anyone would be very hard-pressed to prove, or even produce research that really indicated, that sexual desire the is not power-related is never part of the motivation in rape. 

 

I don't think its obviously institutionalized abuse either - something can be wrong, abusive, and even common, without it being institutionalized.  It can even happen within an institution but not be institutionalized.

 

As for the specifics - I have doubts about the story of the colonoscopy man.  The idea that they said he had piles in his file to humiliate him seems extremely improbable.  It makes me wonder about the rest of the story.  The labia fellow IMO was in bad taste and someone should have said something, and then he should have not done it again.  Calling that abusive is too strong.  The other guy should probably have been spoken to seriously, but how I would interpret it would depend a lot on his behavior more generally.

 

Almost anyone seems to be able to be drawn into these kinds of bad thinking if they get into the right situation.  The research on perception of behavior in groups suggests it, and human history goes some way to prove it I think.  I don't think the answer is to say "These guys are beyond the pale - drum them out!"  It's to look at the reasons the problem tends to develop, in which people, and when, and take steps to eliminate those reasons, or if they are actually intrinsic to the situation, to reduce their impact.  Then maybe you will have better luck identifying the people who really just can't do the work.

 

[Bluegoat]

I had a doctor once who crossed the line big time.  For one thing, he went on and on about how beautiful I was (this was many many years and pounds ago).  Then he told me to get ready for a vaginal exam.  I was there for an earache - something that I was very clear about.  I told him that I would change, waited until he was out of the room, grabbed my purse and ran into the hall.  I ran into the P.A. - a man.  I told him what happened and why I was leaving.  He was great.  He told me that I was absolutely right to flee and told me to call the medical director.  The medical director on the other hand, was totally in CYA mode.  She suggested that it was a problem of the hispanic doctor not understanding me, which was racist in and of itself since he spoke excellent English.  I refused to accept her alternate suggestions.  I have no idea if he was actually disciplined but I never saw him again.  

 

Now that is definitely creepy, and so was the director.

 

I've had issues with power-crazy doctors, including being bullied into surgery.  It can happen. 

[mommaduck]

I had a doctor once who crossed the line big time.  For one thing, he went on and on about how beautiful I was (this was many many years and pounds ago).  Then he told me to get ready for a vaginal exam.  I was there for an earache - something that I was very clear about.  I told him that I would change, waited until he was out of the room, grabbed my purse and ran into the hall.  I ran into the P.A. - a man.  I told him what happened and why I was leaving.  He was great.  He told me that I was absolutely right to flee and told me to call the medical director.  The medical director on the other hand, was totally in CYA mode.  She suggested that it was a problem of the hispanic doctor not understanding me, which was racist in and of itself since he spoke excellent English.  I refused to accept her alternate suggestions.  I have no idea if he was actually disciplined but I never saw him again.  

 

Wow! I'm so sorry. I hope he was soon dismissed.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wow! I'm so sorry. I hope he was soon dismissed.

The thing was, this doctor was at a low income clinic that I went to right out of college because I had no money.  I wondered how many low income women were hit on by him and just took it instead of complaining like me.  I had no money, but I was raised middle class and had the confidence to take on people in authority.  Of course the fear of complaining or making a scene can apply to any socioeconomic group but I think that low-income people especially can feel like they don't have the power to protest abuses of power.  

[Murphy101]

I think that this idea that rape is all about power and not sex is terribly reductive, and it becomes totally incoherent. If rape is just about power, and so we can call any abuse of power rape,

Not one person said rape is JUST about power, though it mostly is, or that any abuse of power is rape. I sure didn't say that and I didn't read that into anyone else's post either. It took contortionist effort to get to that from what I wrote.

 

I also think anyone would be very hard-pressed to prove, or even produce research that really indicated, that sexual desire the is not power-related is never part of the motivation in rape.

Actually it's been researched repeatedly. People are not pulling this fact out their rear.

 

I don't think its obviously institutionalized abuse either - something can be wrong, abusive, and even common, without it being institutionalized. It can even happen within an institution but not be institutionalized.

That is not what I am basing my claim on either. When something is so common no one speaks about it, journals are worried they shouldn't print it, people make excuses for it, are silent about it, perpetuate it, and even go so far as to accept that they wouldn't be bothered by it bc they just understand it's to be expected and some guys just have "poor taste" and we'll just give the guy a serious talking to and get over it, when no one else could get away with it unless they did it within that institution - THAT is what I think makes it institutionalized.

 

As for the specifics - I have doubts about the story of the colonoscopy man. The idea that they said he had piles in his file to humiliate him seems extremely improbable. It makes me wonder about the rest of the story. The labia fellow IMO was in bad taste and someone should have said something, and then he should have not done it again. Calling that abusive is too strong. The other guy should probably have been spoken to seriously, but how I would interpret it would depend a lot on his behavior more generally.

He used is position of power to denigrate another person, a person who couldn't even speak for themselves. I really don't care if you don't like the word choice. I'm more bothered you are more bothered over people using too strong of language in calling it abuse than you are about what they did and said.

 

Almost anyone seems to be able to be drawn into these kinds of bad thinking if they get into the right situation. The research on perception of behavior in groups suggests it, and human history goes some way to prove it I think. I don't think the answer is to say "These guys are beyond the pale - drum them out!" It's to look at the reasons the problem tends to develop, in which people, and when, and take steps to eliminate those reasons, or if they are actually intrinsic to the situation, to reduce their impact. Then maybe you will have better luck identifying the people who really just can't do the work.

 

Yes. I'm aware of the case study history. I'm also aware a mighty fine start is drumming out anyone who can't accept and follow the basic expectations. Having an environment where that is flat out not accepted and everyone is aware it won't be tolerated does wonders for greatly reducing the chances of it happening, people being silent or perpetuating it.

 

I don't really care what their pathetic excuse is.

 

The problem is that it's allowed and accepted.

[poppy]

Rape culture for sure.  The author knew it, he knew it was not ok to use a hand in an unconscious woman's vagina as a joke prop.  I'm surprised this is a debate.

[mommymilkies]

That is so horrifying.  Yes, the objectification and making people less human as "objects" is a good example of a rape culture and culture in which there are obvious power differentials that put people at risk.  :(

 

As the wife of a physician who is not a jerk, I have some questions:

 

1) Why would there be a distinction between doctors talking disrespectfully about any patient characteristic or to talk sexually about a patient in the staff room vs. operating room? Is it okay in some settings? Where? 

 

2) I don't really understand the relevance of comments about doctors being "utterly human."  Can you explain? Do you mean that they should not be held to a certain ethical standard that would preclude sexual remarks or fat-shaming in their professional interactions? 

 

3) If the profession attracts a high percentage of jerks, what can the nonjerks do to protect patients?  

 

Not asking me, but when I worked in healthcare it was absolutely forbidden to ever speak of a patient with any identifying comments or derogatory statements.  Ever.  You could speak in hypotheticals or ask for another opinion (permission if any identifying or personal information), but I simply can not imagine working somewhere people behaved in this manner.  I would be horrified.  Golden rule and all that, we're all patients to someone. :)  We are all human, but you make the decision to go into healthcare, you take oaths, sign confidentiality forms, and it's basic medical ethics 101.  If you can't understand that, you shouldn't be in healthcare. 

 

Ah, another doctor bashing post. My favorite.

Not doctor bashing to describe our problems with the field.  Many of us are current or former healthcare workers or professionals.  :)  I've had more than my fair share of life saving doctors help my family.  I've also had some abusive ones and ones I worked with that I wouldn't trust to put a band aid on me.  They are human and there are very obvious failings in the healthcare SYSTEM that allows this sort of unprofessional behavior.  

[Farrar]

nm

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm sorry but I can't let the last post go without comment.  I think that was uncalled for and is one of the reasons why people cannot have reasonable conversations about necessary topics like this.  

[SporkUK]

Medical abuse is a big issue that as a society we don't really have a discussion or terms around - it's a great violation of personal autonomy and privacy while we are often at our weakest by people given great trust. Some of that has to do with rape culture - being socialized in a culture that continuously sends images and rhetoric  that diminishes the pain and ongoing trauma of sexual assault, treats it as a punishment people deserve a lot, and often treated as entertainment for others has affects including on people who become medical professionals. Some of that is with power in socialization that some people take too far when in authority and I think some is because we that the conversation around it only happens when something major happens and we d not have a socially acceptable and sometimes even actual way to make complaints about any of it that is useful.

 

I am a disabled person, I have been medically abused several times (mainly because I see so many and had a string of awful luck with them while pregnant - it's a major reason why we chose to stop having kids is I couldn't handle further pregnancy related medical abuse). I still have issues with medical abuse that happened over ten years ago. One of which was a sexual assault. They asked my partner to leave and I asked why an internal swab was needed to determine pregnancy (the only reason they would give for it) when I had my paperwork from my midwife there, already had a bump at 16 weeks because I was a tiny 18 year old, and was there after vomiting for several hours (hyperemesis gravidarum hit my first pregnancy so hard). I was held down by two OB/GYN nurses while a third inserted a a large plastic round tube into me, made remarks while I cried from the pain, pulled it out and left laughing about how I had been taught a lesson while I sat in what my partner describes as a frightening pool blood that we both feared I was miscarrying. I was so ashamed I didn't tell him or anyone else what really happened for over 5 years. And I never got the results of that swab though I imagine the amount of blood made it petty inconclusive.

 

Like other sexual assaults, it was all about power, and if we could discuss these issues as a wider society, find a way to give victims of medical abuse back their own power in a way we felt would actually do something we could move beyond so many extreme cases and 'doctor bashing threads' because we felt we could deal with doctors who betray the trust we put in them but as it stands now many who are brave enough to make said complaints are dismissed, doctors just move to work elsewhere, or other things that make it feel useless to complain.  Another medical professional I made a complaint about who had done several illegal things in caring for me was promoted soon after - I felt so powerless and useless which only feeds into the trauma any kind of abuse gives people. We need better systems in place for people and visible accountability. 

[Murphy101]

I'm sorry but I can't let the last post go without comment. I think that was uncalled for and is one of the reasons why people cannot have reasonable conversations about necessary topics like this.

No. Victims have every right to express how their abusive treatment has legitimately caused them to have genuine lasting negative reactions to others, who have a similiar position to possibly abuse them again. To suggest they don't is what is is uncalled for.

 

She wasn't saying everyone should agree with her. She wasn't even saying that she entirely agrees with her own feelings and thoughts about it. She was saying those people in her past are the reason she has these feelings and thoughts and that it absolutely does affect how she views medical staff and her interactions with them.

[T'smom]

This has been an interesting thread. I've never experienced abuse at the hands of a doctor and have found that I generally prefer male docs. IME, they have been more respectful of me as a person. (Not completely- I have had female docs that I really liked and male ones that I didn't, but it has generally been true for me). I have seen quite a few different OBs and psychiatrists. The male ones seem to take my stay at home/homeschooling in stride, the female ones have often insinuated that I should get a job. I felt much more respected by the male docs.

[Abeille]

I can't even read through the whole thread. I was getting too mad.

 

Doctors are all horrible people.

 

I know that's a sweeping generalization, but, honestly, the more I interact with doctors, the more that I find myself developing a deep prejudice against them all. I just loathe them. They're all so hateful and mean. I have had so few good experiences with them in my own care. But I've had plenty of doctors who tell me that I'm imagining a symptom, that I'm an idiot, that I'm a slut. Ack. I just hate them all.

 

ETA: I know... these are my irrational, purely emotional words. I don't really feel this way totally... my kids have a great pediatrician, I have old friends who became doctors... but this is increasingly my gut reaction to thinking about the whole medical profession.

 

:grouphug:  I get what you're saying, and I've felt the same way. I try very hard to be open-minded when meeting a new health-care provider, but decades of personal history have made me very wary.

 

I don't think they're all horrible; they can't be. I just wish I'd met more of the good ones.

[Murphy101]

I can't even read through the whole thread. I was getting too mad.

 

Doctors are all horrible people.

 

I know that's a sweeping generalization, but, honestly, the more I interact with doctors, the more that I find myself developing a deep prejudice against them all. I just loathe them. They're all so hateful and mean. I have had so few good experiences with them in my own care. But I've had plenty of doctors who tell me that I'm imagining a symptom, that I'm an idiot, that I'm a slut. Ack. I just hate them all.

 

ETA: I know... these are my irrational, purely emotional words. I don't really feel this way totally... my kids have a great pediatrician, I have old friends who became doctors... but this is increasingly my gut reaction to thinking about the whole medical profession.

I don't like this bc it sucks, but I do understand how you would feel that way.

 

But then again, maybe if medical professionals refused to tolerate those they work with acting like that and started to support patients who have dealt with it, they wouldn't have to worry about being judged by those they share their profession with.

[mommymilkies]

I'm sorry, Farrar.  I understand the pain.  Trust me there are good ones out there, but I COMPLETELY understand your distrust when you have a traumatizing experience.  I wish you healing to find trust again.  :grouphug:  Personally we went through so many doctors when one of my children was having serious issues.  ER, family practice, pediatricians...some of these were people I worked with or trusted without doubt.  They all let us down.  It took one new (to us) doctor to finally take us seriously and we're lucky she's alive.  I have some serious trust issues now and I go in to every appointment armed with tons of research, print outs, and a more hardcore attitude than I ever would have imagined I'd have to resort to.  It's unfortunate that some of us have to live this way.

[Halftime Hope]

I think it is an error to presume a female physician just wouldn't do that bc of course women would never speak in a derogatory, unprofessional or sexual manner about a patient.

 

Women can be assholes too. Sometimes they seem especially vicious to other women.

 

Yep, I had a female GI doctor at one point, specializing in, erhm, "proctology".  She was the most wretched excuse for a doctor I've ever met.  When she moved her office to the 'burb where my PCP is, I told my PCP not to refer anyone to her and explained why.  Now I know what I should have called her.   :smilielol5:

[Laurie4b]

Medical abuse is a big issue that as a society we don't really have a discussion or terms around - it's a great violation of personal autonomy and privacy while we are often at our weakest by people given great trust. Some of that has to do with rape culture - being socialized in a culture that continuously sends images and rhetoric  that diminishes the pain and ongoing trauma of sexual assault, treats it as a punishment people deserve a lot, and often treated as entertainment for others has affects including on people who become medical professionals. Some of that is with power in socialization that some people take too far when in authority and I think some is because we that the conversation around it only happens when something major happens and we d not have a socially acceptable and sometimes even actual way to make complaints about any of it that is useful.

 

I am a disabled person, I have been medically abused several times (mainly because I see so many and had a string of awful luck with them while pregnant - it's a major reason why we chose to stop having kids is I couldn't handle further pregnancy related medical abuse). I still have issues with medical abuse that happened over ten years ago. One of which was a sexual assault. They asked my partner to leave and I asked why an internal swab was needed to determine pregnancy (the only reason they would give for it) when I had my paperwork from my midwife there, already had a bump at 16 weeks because I was a tiny 18 year old, and was there after vomiting for several hours (hyperemesis gravidarum hit my first pregnancy so hard). I was held down by two OB/GYN nurses while a third inserted a a large plastic round tube into me, made remarks while I cried from the pain, pulled it out and left laughing about how I had been taught a lesson while I sat in what my partner describes as a frightening pool blood that we both feared I was miscarrying. I was so ashamed I didn't tell him or anyone else what really happened for over 5 years. And I never got the results of that swab though I imagine the amount of blood made it petty inconclusive.

 

Like other sexual assaults, it was all about power, and if we could discuss these issues as a wider society, find a way to give victims of medical abuse back their own power in a way we felt would actually do something we could move beyond so many extreme cases and 'doctor bashing threads' because we felt we could deal with doctors who betray the trust we put in them but as it stands now many who are brave enough to make said complaints are dismissed, doctors just move to work elsewhere, or other things that make it feel useless to complain.  Another medical professional I made a complaint about who had done several illegal things in caring for me was promoted soon after - I felt so powerless and useless which only feeds into the trauma any kind of abuse gives people. We need better systems in place for people and visible accountability. 

That is just awful. No one should have to go through an experience like that. I am so sorry that you did.