college

[Woodland Mist Academy]

dp 

 

[Arcadia]

 A larger country has more students and so more students at my son's level. It may not be anything an American would have ever thought about.  It is a real concern of mine. So when I am talking peers, I am talking about the level of classes.  Maybe I need to say it a different way?  

 

You would need to check out the graduate school classes being offered on campus. You can drop the lecturers in ANU an email to further enquire. I would also look at the research papers that the current lecturers at ANU authored.  Also if there is any MOU (memorandum of understanding) signed by the math dept of both the universities you are looking at with other universities.

 

Also with the internet so widely available on universities campuses worldwide,  it might not be difficult to find academic peers worldwide.  Even in the old days of text based world wide web and emails, we were still able to have intellectual discussions worldwide. My alma mater have lecturers in the math dept that can't explain stuff so it is a mixed bag.  My tiny country has a relatively large number of undergrads taking math :lol:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

No, not an option.  She was a returning student at age 40, so she went to the local university because she was not uprooting her family for just a masters.  

 

Being a returning student of 40 probably makes her perspective different all around, doesn't it? 

 

It is interesting that it wasn't worth uprooting the family. I think that speaks volumes. There would be uprooting in your situation, correct?

(Obviously not to the same degree, but still worth considering...)

[lewelma]

We focused the most on class offerings/availability. Determine where your child will be mathematically when he starts at the university and then ask:

 

Does the school offer enough classes at or above his level?

Are they offered frequently (is X class offered every semester or only every other year)?

Does the school offer graduate degrees (meaning there will be graduate level classes available)?

I would consider research opportunities but to a more limited extent. Research in math undergrad isn't quite as important for grad school acceptance as it is for other majors like physics.

 

We ruled out LACs (bachelors only schools) due to the lack of graduate courses for our son. Sure he could have worked with a professor one-on-one, but he didn't want to be taking four years of independent studies.

 

Well, I'm looking through the math departments at both universities and am feeling  :001_huh:  :blink: .  I have no idea how to evaluate these departments.  There is clearly a lot of research happening at Auckland.  Here are the honours projects for this year I think, so 4th year students that are not masters students.  I think this is good.  Yes?

 

Sylow graphs and Sylow structure of some finite groups

Hall π-subgroups of some finite groups

Search for patterns in the spectrum of regular maps of small genera

Construction of families of finite images of finitely-presented groups

Graphs (networks) with prescribed properties

Algorithms for the discrete logarithm problem on elliptic curves

Efficient implementation of elliptic curve cryptography

Differentiability as continuity: characterisations of differentiability of functions in terms of continuity under judiciously chosen topological structures.

Knot theory: different aspects of the topic.

Lie representation theory and applications to invariant operators

The geometry of surfaces, including special surfaces: e.g. minimal, Willmore

Connections and their applications to PDE theory

Positive polynomials and Hilbert's 17th problem

Construction of coset geometries associated to some almost simple groups using Magma.

Invariants of n x n matrices

Families of geometries associated to the Mathieu groups $M_{22}$, $M_{23}$ and $M_{24}$.

Study of algorithms in Computational Incidence Geometry

Complex potential theory

Generalised inverse limits. This is a new area of research involving spaces of infinite dimension, and there are loads of open questions.

General topology

Applications of topology to analysis

Investigating finitely-presented groups

Automorphisms of free, abelian, soluble and p-groups

Abstract convex geometries and choice functions

Orders on subsets and their rationalisations

Secret sharing schemes and their access structures

Indices of power (e.g. of factions in a parliament)

Topics in single-peaked and single-crossing elections

The relationship between (convex) complex polytopes and harmonic frames, and the construction of tight frames from pseduo reflection groups.

The construction and properties (such as the spectral structure) of generalised Bernstein operators (based on the recently introduced canonical barycentric coordinates for an affinely independe

[lewelma]

Being a returning student of 40 probably makes her perspective different all around, doesn't it? 

 

It is interesting that it wasn't worth uprooting the family. I think that speaks volumes. There would be uprooting in your situation, correct?

(Obviously not to the same degree, but still worth considering...)

 

No, we would not move to Australia.  My sister's highschool  where she teaches was paying for her to do the degree and gave her a year off.  But then the research took an additional year that she worked on while teaching again at the highschool.  So she could not really leave.

 

Auckland is a 1 hour flight, and there are about 2 flights per hour.  The cost is anywhere from $100-300 round trip.  ANU has no direct flight to where we are, so we would have to fly through Sydney and then grab a connection. Plus the extra time because of the international aspect.  So about 8 hours I would think. There is a good university with an honours program in maths in Sydney that I also want to look into because it is just 3.5 hour flight.

 

Back when I was in university, my parents had a restriction for university for us -- a  3 hours drive. They wanted to be able to get to us in an emergency.  I was in VA at the time, so this left me with quite a few options.  But I still think it was a reasonable restriction, and one that I might consider.  Auckland flight are every hour, flights to Sydney are not.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

No, we would not move to Australia.  My sister's highschool  where she teaches was paying for her to do the degree and gave her a year off.  But then the research took an additional year that she worked on while teaching again at the highschool.  So she could not really leave.

 

Auckland is a 1 hour flight, and there are about 2 flights per hour.  The cost is anywhere from $100-300 round trip.  ANU has no direct flight to where we are, so we would have to fly through Sydney and then grab a connection. Plus the extra time because of the international aspect.  So about 8 hours I would think. There is a good university with an honours program in maths in Sydney that I also want to look into because it is just 3.5 hour flight.

 

Back when I was in university, my parents had a restriction for university for us -- a  3 hours drive. They wanted to be able to get to us in an emergency.  I was in VA at the time, so this left me with quite a few options.  But I still think it was a reasonable restriction, and one that I might consider.  Auckland flight are every hour, flights to Sydney are not.  

 

Maybe we mean different things by uprooting. No, I didn't think you were moving to Australia. He would be moving, though. Also, even though the family wouldn't actually be uprooting, the ANU option would be considerably more disruptive to your lives. (Which you obviously are already considering.  ;) )

 

Part of my point was that she stayed and got her education, even though it was less than ideal. Maybe she had no option. She made the best of the option she had. 10 years from now will it make any difference for her either way? Does it matter now?

[lewelma]

Changing the verbiage from peers to level of classes makes a bit of a difference in my mind. Thanks for clarifying. Believe it or not, your situation doesn't sound all that different than the one we are facing.  (Albeit the colleges are not in different countries - that is a huge difference!) (edited) Do we want to spend the $$$ for her to go to a college where challenge is guaranteed, or would she be better off where the situation is different. So much depends on the personality of the student. We have talked over and over about percentages of students at various levels at different universities. I do understand. It's on my mind almost daily. Our situation is a bit different in that her interests are somewhat unique and not universally offered. In some ways I'm grateful, it makes the decision easier!

 

I think being 80% certain before a visit is a good benchmark. 

 

Sorry for phrasing it poorly at first. I'm kind of new to this college choice thing.  Sounds like my title also might have confused people.  I'm just bumbling in the dark, but I guess we all do with our first. 

 

I need to think about the personality issue.  I'm thinking he would rather be a big fish in a small pond, but he is also highly competitive, so would love to be at a 'top' university. I don't want the bragging rights to overwhelm the better choice if Auckland turns out to be better.  Kids need guidance.  

[Arcadia]

 

Auckland is a 1 hour flight, and there are about 2 flights per hour.  The cost is anywhere from $100-300 round trip.  ANU has no direct flight to where we are, so we would have to fly through Sydney and then grab a connection. Plus the extra time because of the international aspect.  So about 8 hours I would think. There is a good university with an honours program in maths in Sydney that I also want to look into because it is just 3.5 hour flight.

 

You are not staying next to a crazy busy international airport. That does change things a little.  If he were to go to university "early" in Australia, where would he be staying?  University hostels/dorms or look for a host family? 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Sorry for phrasing it poorly at first. I'm kind of new to this college choice thing.  Sounds like my title also might have confused people.  I'm just bumbling in the dark, but I guess we all do with our first.  

 

No need for apologies! We all come to the conversations with different ways of communicating. The important thing is finding common ground eventually.  

[lewelma]

Maybe we mean different things by uprooting. No, I didn't think you were moving to Australia. He would be moving, though. Also, even though the family wouldn't actually be uprooting, the ANU option would be considerably more disruptive to your lives. (Which you obviously are already considering.  ;) )

 

I see what you mean.  Yes, that is kind of part of this decision.  Do I really want him to build a life in Australia?  Obviously, it is not going to be my choice in the end, but if I encourage ANU then he will make friends, possibly find a partner, build the beginning of a career network all in a foreign country. If he were really pushing for it, that would be different, but suggesting ANU would be my idea.  

 

Also, I'm assuming that his summer research opportunities would be in Australia.  So we might just wave goodbye, pay the bills, and see him at christmas.  I'm not sure I'm ok with encouraging that.  I will, obviously, if Auckland won't do.  But I want to make sure that Auckland won't do before we head down this path.

[lewelma]

You are not staying next to a crazy busy international airport. That does change things a little.  If he were to go to university "early" in Australia, where would he be staying?  University hostels/dorms or look for a host family? 

Ah, very good question.  I've been thinking of saying that I would not allow him to go internationally until he was 18.  He kind of wants to go to university at 17, so making this restriction might influence him in a number of ways. 

[lewelma]

ok, it sounds like I really need to figure out if Auckland will be challenging enough.  Any ideas on how to evaluate the class difficulty?  Perhaps he could talk to some of the x-IMO kids at camp this year who are now at Auckland.  Or talk to the IMO team leader, who is at a different university than Auckland, but might have some insight.  Any other ideas?  Maybe get opinions on the textbook choice?  I know for example that the local University's choice of Anton for Calculus says that they are more applied, than using one of the theoretical textbooks.  

 

Someone suggested finding a person in ds's field to discuss how important prestige is in undergrad.  Not sure who I would find, but that is also a good idea. 

[Crimson Wife]

Definitely worried about encouraging him to look at a university that I am either unwilling to pay for or that is too far away. Sometimes he can get something in his head and it is hard to get it out. I don't want him to feel like he is just settling for Auckland if we go and visit ANU and he loves it and dh and I don't think it is worth the money or don't think he could handle to 'away' part.

 

[\quote]

 

I, for one, am VERY glad that my DH was ambitious enough to find a way to attend an elite school that his parents were unwilling to pay for and thought was "too far" away.

 

His parents may not have seen the value of attending Stanford but I've seen how well their advice turned out for SIL and BIL.

[lewelma]

I, for one, am VERY glad that my DH was ambitious enough to find a way to attend an elite school that his parents were unwilling to pay for and thought was "too far" away.

 

His parents may not have seen the value of attending Stanford but I've seen how well their advice turned out for SIL and BIL.

 

Well, I'm not sure ds is ambitious. The idea right now is mine.  Also, the term 'elite' school seems to mean something different than I thought it did when I wrote the title to this thread.  I'm talking about a school that will challenge ds -- that is what I meant by 'elite.' But there seems to be some baggage associated with the word in America, that I don't totally understand.

 

So he can get in and I can pay.  Does that mean that the choice is made?  I don't think so.  There seems to be so much more that *I* need to consider when acting as his guidance councilor.  Then end game for this boy is graduate school.  In the end, if the professors at Auckland will take a real interest in my ds and get him opportunities and specialized programs and use their international contacts to get him into the best grad program, then Auckland will be better for ds than ANU which to me right now seems bigger and more impersonal.  So, I don't think that the solution is as straight forward as go to the highest ranked school you can get into.  If that were the case, ds could aim for higher than ANU.

[JennW in SoCal]

ok, it sounds like I really need to figure out if Auckland will be challenging enough.  Any ideas on how to evaluate the class difficulty?  Perhaps he could talk to some of the x-IMO kids at camp this year who are now at Auckland.  Or talk to the IMO team leader, who is at a different university than Auckland, but might have some insight.  Any other ideas?  Maybe get opinions on the textbook choice?  I know for example that the local University's choice of Anton for Calculus says that they are more applied, than using one of the theoretical textbooks.  

 

Someone suggested finding a person in ds's field to discuss how important prestige is in undergrad.  Not sure who I would find, but that is also a good idea. 

 

I could be totally wrong here, but I think your ds would not be confined to taking only the standard undergrad math classes in Auckland. I don't think you should be judging math departments by their calculus 1 textbooks, as your ds will likely start far beyond that.  If he surpasses what they offer to undergrads then he could take grad level courses, or he could do independent studies directed by a professor. A large department will have a wide variety of classes and a good number of professors, one of whom would wind up being an excellent mentor.  

 

Absolutely start talking to anyone and everyone involved in IMO, students and team leader.  Just ask general questions -- is Auckland a good school for math? What do you like about it? What don't you like? Do you know of other options? 

 

Start lurking on the math department websites. Start googling the names of the professors. Send an e-mail to a professor or two (better yet, have your ds email them).  

 

And for heaven's sake, at least visit Auckland!!  Get a feel for what college could be. Make sure your ds gets to meet with a professor or two, and get a feel for the campus.

 

Btw, I sent my 17yo to the other side of the continent for college -- 6 hours of travel, changing planes, plus a shuttle between the airport and campus.  At least it was in the same country, though!  

[lewelma]

I could be totally wrong here, but I think your ds would not be confined to taking only the standard undergrad math classes in Auckland. I don't think you should be judging math departments by their calculus 1 textbooks, as your ds will likely start far beyond that.  If he surpasses what they offer to undergrads then he could take grad level courses, or he could do independent studies directed by a professor. A large department will have a wide variety of classes and a good number of professors, one of whom would wind up being an excellent mentor.  

 

Absolutely start talking to anyone and everyone involved in IMO, students and team leader.  Just ask general questions -- is Auckland a good school for math? What do you like about it? What don't you like? Do you know of other options? 

 

Start lurking on the math department websites. Start googling the names of the professors. Send an e-mail to a professor or two (better yet, have your ds email them).  

 

And for heaven's sake, at least visit Auckland!!  Get a feel for what college could be. Make sure your ds gets to meet with a professor or two, and get a feel for the campus.

 

Btw, I sent my 17yo to the other side of the continent for college -- 6 hours of travel, changing planes, plus a shuttle between the airport and campus.  At least it was in the same country, though!  

Thanks for your ideas, Jenn.

 

DS's IMO training camp is held at the University of Auckland each year, so he has been twice and will go a few more times still. Not sure he has wandered around much, though. There are a couple of professors from Auckland who help out at the camp, so he has met them.  Hopefully, I can convince him to talk to them about this issue in January.

 

I will start the process of getting ds to think about e-mailing people.  *this* is the kind of thing, however, that ds will be very resistant to.  He does not like to do this kind of thing, which is something he needs to work on.

 

As for the textbooks, I was only using that textbook as an example.  Perhaps other more advanced classes have a choice of 2 or 3 common textbooks where the choice would say something about the level the class is taught at?  Just an idea? 

 

I'm ok with the travel, if he is.  However, I can't really tell if he is or will be.  He is 14.  He knows nothing. :001_smile:

[Arcadia]

There are a couple of professors from Auckland who help out at the camp, so he has met them. Hopefully, I can convince him to talk to them about this issue in January.

I think being about to talk to people and sounding them out is a soft skill worth cultivating.

Being able to advocate for themselves is another soft skill that is useful.

 

I am working with my boys on that as they have not had the need to request for anything and so is mentally stuck when filling up the form for mentor request or when someone ask my boys how they (the person) can be of assistance to my boys. I was used to asking for resources from my public school staff since I was in 3rd grade so different kind of childhood environment.

 

The textbooks listed may be just the approved spine. Usually lecturers might supplement from various books including trade books. A "tour" of a lecturer's room would give an idea of books.

 

ETA:

Comically "elite" has a connotation of snob/rich kids school when I was growing up. I went to an elite public school and people were surprised I didn't have my nose in the air :)

 

ETA:

If he does his PhD in New Zealand, would he be able to work as a lecturer there next time if he wants to? My hubby had his PhD from NUS so he can't teach there because they want lecturers who have overseas academia exposure.

[lewelma]

I think being about to talk to people and sounding them out is a soft skill worth cultivating.

Being able to advocate for themselves is another soft skill that is useful.

 

I am working with my boys on that as they have not had the need to request for anything and so is mentally stuck when filling up the form for mentor request or when someone ask my boys how they (the person) can be of assistance to my boys. I was used to asking for resources from my public school staff since I was in 3rd grade so different kind of childhood environment.

:)

 

 

 

I *completely* agree. 

[lewelma]

 

 

ETA:

Comically "elite" has a connotation of snob/rich kids school when I was growing up. I went to an elite public school and people were surprised I didn't have my nose in the air :)

 

ETA:

If he does his PhD in New Zealand, would he be able to work as a lecturer there next time if he wants to? My hubby had his PhD from NUS so he can't teach there because they want lecturers who have overseas academia exposure.

 

Yeah, I think I put my foot in it with 'elite' in the title.  oops.  I remember when I first came here 20 years ago and I told someone that I went to a top-10 university in the US, and they said "We all go to top-10 universities here."  There are only 7 universities in NZ :001_smile:

 

Don't think ds will get a PhD in NZ.  He may not even do it in math.  He is pretty keen on theoretical physics. 

[rebbyribs]

ok, it sounds like I really need to figure out if Auckland will be challenging enough.  Any ideas on how to evaluate the class difficulty?  Perhaps he could talk to some of the x-IMO kids at camp this year who are now at Auckland.  Or talk to the IMO team leader, who is at a different university than Auckland, but might have some insight.  Any other ideas?  Maybe get opinions on the textbook choice?  I know for example that the local University's choice of Anton for Calculus says that they are more applied, than using one of the theoretical textbooks.  

 

Someone suggested finding a person in ds's field to discuss how important prestige is in undergrad.  Not sure who I would find, but that is also a good idea. 

 

I think talking to the IMO leader would be an excellent idea because he was in a similar position to your son 25 years ago, as one of the top math students in the country, chose to go to university in NZ, and then went on to one of the top PhD programs worldwide.  

 

One thing that is different about going to an elite university in the U.S. is that there is no honors program.  Everyone does a 1- to 2-year independent research project under the supervision of a faculty advisor and writes a thesis as a requirement for graduation. 

 

Is transferring an option?  Can he complete a couple years in NZ and go abroad to finish his degree?  Or do a BA in 3 years and a Master's program elsewhere?

[8filltheheart]

Ruth,

 

I would find out how the university operates. Not all universities here have the same policies. The university ds is attending has a special program which permits under grads to take grad level courses and earn their masters. Will your ds be able to receive credit for lower level courses and spend his time taking higher level ones?

 

Your post about particle physics made me smile. Physics is what caused ds to shift gears away from so much time on math. He still loves math, but physics is just something "more." He lost all interest in math competitions and wanted to spend time on physics research instead.

 

Is it normal for students to double major there or does he need clearly defined objectives before he goes?

[creekland]

FWIW, I believe you said your guy is 14 now and will be attending college at 17?  (Sorry if I misunderstood - I'm reading quickly.)  If that's the case, his social skills at the moment - not wanting to e-mail profs, etc (those skills - no clue on others) - is perfectly normal.  Kids change a TON in maturity between 14 and 17.  At 14 I had no clue what I wanted to do with my life.  By 17 I was itching to go to college and enjoyed going 12 hours from home.  It's only three years, but there's so much development going on during that time.

 

In the meantime, to gauge colleges, you (as a guidance counselor) e-mail the head of the depts - both schools (telling him/her you have an advanced student who is considering going there in a couple of years) and ask what recent grads are doing/where they are going.  That ought to tell you if there are any differences.  Where a students starts in the sequence isn't that big of a deal.  Where they finish can be.  Before e-mailing, you could look to see if the schools post this online.  A few do.

[Mike in SA]

There would be NO shame or loss of prestige going to Auckland!

 

Courses do get harder among the niche 10.  11-20 (including ANU), a bit harder then 21-100, but nothing like Cambridge, Princeton, Chicago, Stanford, Oxford, MIT, Cal-Tech, or Harvard.  Unless he has his eyes on one of those, the difference between an undergraduate degree at ANU and Auckland will be nominal.

 

Graduate schools want variety.  They do not want a student raised at their own universities.

 

Looking at their programs, Auckland seems to focus more on discrete and pure math, whereas ANU provides considerable breadth of subjects.  If your son prefers calculus over combinatorics, I might be inclined to suggest ANU.  In the other order, Auckland.  Applied math is a bit weak at Auckland and strong at ANU from what I can gather, but I don't really know.

 

But that is what I meant about the personality of the school.  If your son really loves combinatorics, then ANU is likely not as strong of a fit as Auckland.  If he loves sciences and applied math, head to ANU all the way.  If he loves analysis (like calculus), then I lean slightly towards ANU.

 

Wait a year or so, then take a visit, and see what works.

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

Courses do get harder among the niche 10.  11-20 (including ANU), a bit harder then 21-100, but nothing like Cambridge, Princeton, Chicago, Stanford, Oxford, MIT, Cal-Tech, or Harvard. 

 

Frankly, if I had a kid competing on the IMO level, these are the kinds of schools I would be targeting for him/her. Now if we couldn't make it work from a financial aspect, that's understandable, but ruling them out years ahead of time before even knowing what kind of scholarships my child might receive seems unfair.

 

DH and I both went 3,000 miles away from where we grew up to attend college so I don't get all the concern about distance. If the top school for whatever my kid wanted to do was in NZ and the child both got accepted & the finances worked, we'd send them in a heartbeat even though it is something like a 15 hour flight.

[8filltheheart]

Does ANU offer merit scholarships to international students? If so, CW made an excellent pt in that the costs might be very different with scholarships. (The American schools in that list with the exception of UChicago, however, do not offer merit aid, only need-based. I'm not sure how generous UC actually is, though. I don't think much unless you are talking about their specific Chicago related scholarships. I have no idea about Cambridge and Oxford.)

 

I know there are small scholarships associated with Putnam. Are there scholarship awards associated with IMO?

 

But, I fully understand the issue with international attendance. Not all people are equally adventurous. We had a dd attend internationally at 17. She loved every minute of it. One of her sisters is a complete and total homebody and would detest being unable to see family except once or twice a yr. Your student needs to know himself.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Frankly, if I had a kid competing on the IMO level, these are the kinds of schools I would be targeting for him/her. Now if we couldn't make it work from a financial aspect, that's understandable, but ruling them out years ahead of time before even knowing what kind of scholarships my child might receive seems unfair.

 

DH and I both went 3,000 miles away from where we grew up to attend college so I don't get all the concern about distance. If the top school for whatever my kid wanted to do was in NZ and the child both got accepted & the finances worked, we'd send them in a heartbeat even though it is something like a 15 hour flight.

 

 

I'm glad it worked for you. I know people who transferred out of Ivy League schools not for academic reasons, but because they didn't like the location or something else. Academics are a big part of the puzzle, but not the only piece. Experiences vary. I know some who regret the choice to go to school far away from home. Proximity matters immensely to some families - they enjoy sharing time together throughout various stages of their lives.  Perhaps for your family it's different.  

 

I also know families who limit distance to school because of medical issues. There is no one right way to do this. There are many variables at play.

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I also know families who limit distance to school because of medical issues. There is no one right way to do this. There are many variables at play.

 

 

That is where we are right now with dd.

 

BUT, we are also surrounded by graduates of avg universities who all have great careers, and we have seen how it worked out for them. No star dust in our eyes. ;) we are more of the opinion that the student makes the experience matter more than the experience makes the student.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Am I the only one who doesn't see this as my choice to make at all?  It will likely come down to a balance of cost and fit, but "fit" may or may have anything to do with how elite a school is. 

 

My older kid has his sights set on a particular school.  I was honest in that his chances of getting in there are extremely small, and not just because he wouldn't have the ability (there just are so many highly qualified applicants that it then comes down to little more than luck).  If he works towards that goal, it will be more than sufficient for him to apply to various schools so I see it as not a bad thing to aim for, but not because it is an elite school. 

[lewelma]

Am I the only one who doesn't see this as my choice to make at all?  It will likely come down to a balance of cost and fit, but "fit" may or may have nothing to do with how elite a school is. 

 

My older kid has his sights set on a particular school.  I was honest in that his chances of getting in there are extremely small, and not just because he wouldn't have the ability (there just are so many highly qualified applicants that it then comes down to little more than luck).  If he works towards that goal, it will be more than sufficient for him to apply to various schools so I see it as not a bad thing to aim for, but not because it is an elite school. 

 

Hey Sparkly, not sure you read the entire thread, but since I'm paying and my ds doesn't want loans, I am trying to figure out if the differences are worth the money before I start encouraging him to consider ANU. So if he wants me to pay, I do get the right to do a first cut. 

 

And I have also apparently misused the word 'elite' to mean a school with challenging math program, and apparently it means something else to a lot of people.  I am definitely considering other stuff associated with fit, lots of other stuff (see up thread). 

[lewelma]

Frankly, if I had a kid competing on the IMO level, these are the kinds of schools I would be targeting for him/her. Now if we couldn't make it work from a financial aspect, that's understandable, but ruling them out years ahead of time before even knowing what kind of scholarships my child might receive seems unfair.

 

DH and I both went 3,000 miles away from where we grew up to attend college so I don't get all the concern about distance. If the top school for whatever my kid wanted to do was in NZ and the child both got accepted & the finances worked, we'd send them in a heartbeat even though it is something like a 15 hour flight.

 

We have talked about trying for the best programs in the world.  The problem is trying to be competitive in more than one country.  I ran a thread about this a while back.  Typically, in the commonwealth countries, kids need to specialize; whereas in the USA there is still an expectation of being a generalist in high school.  So basically, last year we had to choose because we had to either specialize or stay general.  At that time, he had NO interest in going so far away from home, none, even though he has visited the USA 14 times in his life.  So we chose.  He is not doing any sort of formal history/social sciences.  I believe this rules out all USA universities.  I might be able to cobble together a credit if I had to as ds does read the Economist among other things, but in end the end we had to choose.

 

Also, Laura and 8 made some good points.  DS is a specialist already, and commonwealth countries don't require a liberal arts year.  I'm not sure that DS really wants to back track from his specializing and go general for a year in university.  

 

So because of all these issues, I went looking for the best schools in commonwealth countries.  Obviously Cambridge and Oxford, but then surprisingly up pops ANU.  So that is why I am exploring it as an option. 

 

Please know that although I am asking a lot of questions, the complexity of my ds's situation is not small, and I am and have been working very very hard to find an optimum solution.  And because we are dealing with international issues, and *I* am in charge of designing his highschool program, I had to make the decisions when he was 13, and unfortunately 13 year olds don't know much!

[8filltheheart]

  Obviously Cambridge and Oxford, but then surprisingly up pops ANU.  So that is why I am exploring it as an option. 

 

 

At Oxford or Cambridge would he be limited to maths or can he also major in physics simultaneously.  I am confused by how their system works.  B/c you mention an interest in theoretical physics, I wouldn't want to eliminate his ability to explore different options.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hey Sparkly, not sure you read the entire thread, but since I'm paying and my ds doesn't want loans, I am trying to figure out if the differences are worth the money before I start encouraging him to consider ANU. So if he wants me to pay, I do get the right to do a first cut. 

 

And I have also apparently misused the word 'elite' to mean a school with challenging math program, and apparently it means something else to a lot of people.  I am definitely considering other stuff associated with fit, lots of other stuff (see up thread). 

 

Ah, I have no experience with such luxuries!

[lewelma]

At Oxford or Cambridge would he be limited to maths or can he also major in physics simultaneously.  I am confused by how their system works.  B/c you mention an interest in theoretical physics, I wouldn't want to eliminate his ability to explore different options.

 

I'm always confused.  Each school is so different!  I'm pretty sure that at Auckland you can double major which is ds's plan right now.  However, although he likes physics, he certainly never spends the same amount of time on it as his math, no where even close.  So I have suggested that he take lots of different types of math and see which he really loves, and then pick the field that uses that type of math. He sees the wisdom of that idea, but he also wants to double major in physics. I feel a little bit like he almost 'wants' to love physics, mostly because he does not know what other uses are out there for math I'm sure he will figure it out when he starts taking classes full time.

 

At ANU's honor's program, I believe you cannot double major because the PhB is a research degree, and you can't research in 2 different fields apparently.  ANU's undergrad physics research projects look to my uneducated eye to be pretty hot stuff, and the technology light years beyond what any NZ school could offer. However, their math research projects at the two universities seem to be at the same level.  Not like I would really know.

[Mike in SA]

DS8 would be jealous reading this thread. Cambridge is his dream school, but alas, we are not commonwealth residents. Maybe things will change in the next 8-10 years.

[lewelma]

There would be NO shame or loss of prestige going to Auckland!

 

Courses do get harder among the niche 10.  11-20 (including ANU), a bit harder then 21-100, but nothing like Cambridge, Princeton, Chicago, Stanford, Oxford, MIT, Cal-Tech, or Harvard.  Unless he has his eyes on one of those, the difference between an undergraduate degree at ANU and Auckland will be nominal.

 

Graduate schools want variety.  They do not want a student raised at their own universities.

 

Looking at their programs, Auckland seems to focus more on discrete and pure math, whereas ANU provides considerable breadth of subjects.  If your son prefers calculus over combinatorics, I might be inclined to suggest ANU.  In the other order, Auckland.  Applied math is a bit weak at Auckland and strong at ANU from what I can gather, but I don't really know.

 

But that is what I meant about the personality of the school.  If your son really loves combinatorics, then ANU is likely not as strong of a fit as Auckland.  If he loves sciences and applied math, head to ANU all the way.  If he loves analysis (like calculus), then I lean slightly towards ANU.

 

Wait a year or so, then take a visit, and see what works.

Thanks so much for looking at the departments!  This is an incredibly useful post, and I am glad to hear that the difference in level between 11-20 and 21-100 is not very great, because that means we can remove that consideration from the list and focus on the other aspects of fit. 

 

Right now, ds is definitely theoretical.  He does not have an applied bone in his body, yet.  As for what math ds likes, he likes anything NEW!  So when he was studying number theory, he loved number theory; now that he is studying calculus, he loves calculus.  

 

And the science part I think is huge in ANU's favor.  They just have more money!

 

Finally, I agree.  Auckland is good!  It is ds who is just getting a hint at prestige and starting to wonder about it having never thought about it before.  In huge contrast to the USA, NZ is very much a were-all-the-same kind of place, where 'tall poppies get cut down', so discussing prestige is kind of a taboo subject.  It's a cultural thing, and really kind of hard to explain in brief.  

 

Thanks so much for your insights!  

 

 

[lewelma]

Mike, does being in an honors program at ANU make it more like a top 10 in difficulty of classes?

[Arcadia]

DS8 would be jealous reading this thread. Cambridge is his dream school, but alas, we are not commonwealth residents. Maybe things will change in the next 8-10 years.

 

*confused* Cambridge accepts international students from USA for undergrad and postgrad. 

http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/usa

​

[lewelma]

Ah, I have no experience with such luxuries!

 

Well, I hate talking money, but as you know it is a very important part of this conversation.  However, I'm not really a luxury type of person.  We live in a 650sq ft apartment and drive a 16 year old car.  :thumbup1:

[lewelma]

Got to run.  It's Saturday and I'm tutoring for 7 hours!! :auto:

[Arcadia]

At Oxford or Cambridge would he be limited to maths or can he also major in physics simultaneously.  I am confused by how their system works.  B/c you mention an interest in theoretical physics, I wouldn't want to eliminate his ability to explore different options.

 

Cambridge is charging a lower tuition fee for maths than for sciences.  I think they allow double major but you pay at the higher tier.  It is easy to email and ask as a prospective student.

http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/international-students/fees

​

 

Ruth,

 

Your child may like this at Cambridge

http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergradnst/index.html

 

"In the second year (IB) there is a single, optional, dedicated mathematics course:

• Mathematics IB, including Natural Sciences Tripos Computational Mathematics Practicals
  • Run by Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics, in the Faculty of Mathematics."

​

Is AU and NZ like SG tertiary in that if you have certain grades, you are a shoo-in for certain faculties?

​

[Mike in SA]

Mike, does being in an honors program at ANU make it more like a top 10 in difficulty of classes?

 

Really couldn't say.  I liked the listing of materials they were using later on, but the early classes don't seem much more rigorous.  Normally (in the US), honors means "deeper early on" plus "required paper at the end."  The paper can be done regardless. 

 

What might be interesting would be to check out MIT-OCW, and see how the content there feels.  They have an outstanding list of courses for math, with video instruction.  THAT series shows rigor.  When you compare their calculus to the one you are doing at home, you'll get a feel for the difference in depth.  It isn't all that different for undergrads.

 

What I like to see is that modern algebra, analysis (or advanced calculus), and general or algebraic topology are taught in one course each, instead of breaking it down into two spoon-fed sessions, though many top programs will still split them for depth (see Chicago).  A really rigorous education will accommodate (but not require) all three courses as an undergraduate, plus at least one course requiring a prerequisite from the aforementioned.  Both Auckland and ANU seem fine on that front, but you can find out for sure with a phone call.

 

Take a peek at the requirements from Chicago (http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/mathematics/), and you'll see what makes a rigorous undergraduate slate.  Then, look at Kentucky (http://www.uky.edu/registrar/bulletinCurrent/courses/MA.pdf), which was mentioned above as "less than elite," and you'll see it still has a good offering, particularly in discrete math.  Can you see a huge difference?

 

Finally, don't forget to check graduate classes.  I would fully expect your son to be well into graduate courses before completing undergraduate studies.  All of those add to the real prestige your son achieves, more so than the school.

[Mike in SA]

*confused* Cambridge accepts international students from USA for undergrad and postgrad. 

http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/usa

​

 

Yep, but I thought commonwealth students got to go cheaper?  Maybe it's just EU...  Anyway, $70k/year is a bit steep for us...

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I hate talking money, but as you know it is a very important part of this conversation.  However, I'm not really a luxury type of person.  We live in a 650sq ft apartment and drive a 16 year old car.  :thumbup1:

 

That's some tight living space!

 

My clunker just died.  : )

[EmilyGF]

My husband is a professor at a top-10 university (went to a top-6 undergrad, top-6 grad school, top-6 post-doc) and notices a difference in preparation between schools in his students.

That said, someone who has gone to a top 50 school will be fine (second tier) at a top-10 grad school; they'll just have to work hard. Just like AOPS has an "Algebra" class and Saxon has an "Algebra" class, the name only reflects something of what the class taught. 

 

Someone who has gone to a tier 3 school would need to probably do a masters at a tier 2 school before they would have a chance at a top-10 grad school. But tier 2 undergrad to tier 1 grad is no problem, just hard work.

 

Emily

[Pen]

 

 

 

I think he would be best off planning to go to uni in NZ.  By age 20 or so with some uni under his belt he should be much more ready to be able to deal with a transfer to or PhD at somewhere else whether that is Australia or perhaps even somewhere a lot farther.

 

 

My perspective is based on having gone to a quite "elite" school far from home at age 17.  It was not too far so long as all was going well.  But it was too far away to be in the event of any problems coming up. And problems can come up.  

 

 

ETA sorry--I did not see the please don't quote till I came back to read!  So I erased the quote!

[Crimson Wife]

Does ANU offer merit scholarships to international students? If so, CW made an excellent pt in that the costs might be very different with scholarships. (The American schools in that list with the exception of UChicago, however, do not offer merit aid, only need-based.  

 

The schools themselves may have only need-based aid, but for Harvard and UC Berkeley at least, the alumni association gives scholarships that are not part of the institutional aid. I would assume that they're not the only ones. I would check with the NZ branches of the various alumni associations to see if they offer any scholarships. Here's one that appears to be open to students from New Zealand: http://frankknox.harvard.edu/

[8filltheheart]

The schools themselves may have only need-based aid, but for Harvard and UC Berkeley at least, the alumni association gives scholarships that are not part of the institutional aid. I would assume that they're not the only ones. I would check with the NZ branches of the various alumni associations to see if they offer any scholarships. Here's one that appears to be open to students from New Zealand: http://frankknox.harvard.edu/

The only alumni scholarships Harvard has listed on their website are for Harvard upperclassmen.

http://alumni.harvard.edu/college/undergraduates/awards-and-scholarships The Knox fellowship is for grad school. Are you aware of freshman scholarships?

 

In all honesty, chances are slim to none that students are attending HYPSM on anything other than need-based aid or COA being paid by their family. Universities reduce institutional grant awards when students bring in outside scholarships and the net gain might be eliminating the student contribution but the parental EFC remains untouched. (A $5000-7000 reductionin student contribution in a large unaffordable parental EFC isn't going to make the school suddenly affordable.)

 

This explanation from Brown is pretty good. Outside scholarships are defined as non-gov'tmental.

Receiving outside scholarships and tuition benefits is an excellent way to help reduce your need to work and/or borrow student loans while at Brown. When you receive an outside scholarship, our office is required to reevaluate your financial aid package and account for the additional resource. Keep in mind that federal regulations stipulate that an outside scholarship cannot be used to reduce your parent contribution.

 

Note: This policy does not apply to entitlement awards (State Scholarships, Pell Grants and Federal SEOG). Receipt of these funds will result in dollar for dollar reduction in University Scholarship

 

Outside scholarships can be used to reduce the following:

 

Student Contribution from Summer Earnings

Work-Study/Campus Employment Expectation

Loans

When you reduce the components of your package listed above, you may reduce the entire student expectation, or what we call student-effort (loans, work-study/campus employment and summer earnings expectation).

Since your dh has a really good job, the financial realities that some families face bc schools expect them to pay way more than they can afford does not eliminate the reality that need-based aid is all there is. If you can't pay, you can't pay. There are no merit scholarships that are going to open up that door.

 

If you have never run a net-price calculator, they will give a fairly accurate assessment. You need to know basics....income, investments, home equity, last yr's retirement contributions, etc. you simply plug in the numbers and it will give you a general idea of your cost. Here is Harvard's. (It doesn't ask for as much info as some. ) https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator

 

Fwiw, UC schools are not financially friendly to OOS students.

Most undergraduates from other states, or whose parents live outside of California, pay nonresident supplemental tuition for the entire time they are enrolled at UC. The nonresident supplemental tuition adds an additional $24,024 to a student’s cost of attendance each year. Very limited financial aid is available to help cover this extra cost – mostly, loans. Make sure to file a FAFSA and consider how you'll cover this cost.

[lewelma]

Really couldn't say.  I liked the listing of materials they were using later on, but the early classes don't seem much more rigorous.  Normally (in the US), honors means "deeper early on" plus "required paper at the end."  The paper can be done regardless. 

 

What might be interesting would be to check out MIT-OCW, and see how the content there feels.  They have an outstanding list of courses for math, with video instruction.  THAT series shows rigor.  When you compare their calculus to the one you are doing at home, you'll get a feel for the difference in depth.  It isn't all that different for undergrads.

 

What I like to see is that modern algebra, analysis (or advanced calculus), and general or algebraic topology are taught in one course each, instead of breaking it down into two spoon-fed sessions, though many top programs will still split them for depth (see Chicago).  A really rigorous education will accommodate (but not require) all three courses as an undergraduate, plus at least one course requiring a prerequisite from the aforementioned.  Both Auckland and ANU seem fine on that front, but you can find out for sure with a phone call.

 

Take a peek at the requirements from Chicago (http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/mathematics/), and you'll see what makes a rigorous undergraduate slate.  Then, look at Kentucky (http://www.uky.edu/registrar/bulletinCurrent/courses/MA.pdf), which was mentioned above as "less than elite," and you'll see it still has a good offering, particularly in discrete math.  Can you see a huge difference?

 

Finally, don't forget to check graduate classes.  I would fully expect your son to be well into graduate courses before completing undergraduate studies.  All of those add to the real prestige your son achieves, more so than the school.

Thanks for the ideas, Mike.  DS started the MIT OCW for calculus, but it was pretty low level from his point of view.  He had personally discovered a bunch of the proofs on his own before he had even started calculus.  Now he is using AoPS calc.  So is the calc class an example of MIT rigor?  Or are you saying that all undergrad courses are about the same?  Or is ds working at a high level?  I'm not quite sure what to take from this.  

 

Still trying to clean up the KY reference and still trying to back out of the word 'elite'.  I used KY as an example of a population feeding into a school.  I know that KY has the same number of people as NZ (4 million), and I know that they have good universities in both countries (My dad ran a large part of the entire UK system for 10 years).  I was more trying to say if you only have kids coming from a population of 4 million, the kids are not going to be the same as if you have a population of 400 million feeding it. Just a numbers thing.  I simply can't tell what that means to the difficulty of the courses at universities that are fed by a larger population, but it seems like if the university was selective that the kids, would be at a higher level and thus the classes would be harder.  

 

DS should be 5 classes into second year when he enters, I think. Interesting that the courses he takes are more important than the school.  Sounds like Auckland has a lot of kids doing an honors paper (I listed them above), so perhaps Auckland simply does not need to differentiate an 'honors' program, because any kid wanting to do an honors year is basically in the honors program.  

 

You and others are giving me lots of good questions to ask IMO team leader and Auckland professors.  Will get on it when I'm a bit less busy!  thanks!

[lewelma]

My husband is a professor at a top-10 university (went to a top-6 undergrad, top-6 grad school, top-6 post-doc) and notices a difference in preparation between schools in his students.

That said, someone who has gone to a top 50 school will be fine (second tier) at a top-10 grad school; they'll just have to work hard. Just like AOPS has an "Algebra" class and Saxon has an "Algebra" class, the name only reflects something of what the class taught. 

 

Someone who has gone to a tier 3 school would need to probably do a masters at a tier 2 school before they would have a chance at a top-10 grad school. But tier 2 undergrad to tier 1 grad is no problem, just hard work.

 

Emily

 

Thanks for this Emily.  This is a major reason why I am considering encouraging ANU.  When you say top 50 schools, is that top 50 in the world, or top 50 in the USA?  Just trying to get a feeling for what your dh is saying. 

 

I do know that the only IMO gold medal winner that has ever come from NZ went to Auckland.  And he applied for 13 top grad programs and got into all 13.  He did his PhD at Princeton.  NZ takes care of their own.  It might be that they tailor the program to the student and get the more advanced students working at a higher level.  I wonder how I find out?  Any ideas?

[Arcadia]

Your child is still young. You can sound out the IMO team leaders and Auckland professors without appearing like a helicopter parent. They may think he is not applying for universities anytime soon and so have not talent scout him.

 

Put out feelers now while he is young and they (general) don't mind parents helping in the process. Coming from a country worried about brain drain, it was a cultural shock here.

 

ETA:

KIV for postgrad, Rhodes scholarship for New Zealander

http://www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/new-zealand