college

[kiwik]

Personally, I would like to see ALL young Americans of able body and mind be required to perform national service as most other countries require. Get self-centered teens thinking about what they can do to give back to their community instead of thinking that they are entitled to have success handed to them on a silver platter.

And the ones with very low level ASD or sub diagnosis sensory or emorional issues? Or ethical objections? I would encourage civil disobedience. Sorry you pushed a sore spot.

 

Lewelma. How do living costs in Canberra compare with Auckland? While visiting isn't the same as in the US I remeber whole school groups camping in the hostel common rooms when i was at Massey so kids do visit. Since your son will be young it would be perfectly rwadonable. I just don't think you will find out a huge amount from the visit. I would consider Auckland and keeping any spare money for postgrad studies and your younger son.

[Mike in SA]

Thanks for the ideas, Mike.  DS started the MIT OCW for calculus, but it was pretty low level from his point of view.  He had personally discovered a bunch of the proofs on his own before he had even started calculus.  Now he is using AoPS calc.  So is the calc class an example of MIT rigor?  Or are you saying that all undergrad courses are about the same?  Or is ds working at a high level?  I'm not quite sure what to take from this.  

 

 

Pretty much, yes, that's considered a rigorous course.  You won't see much difference from school to school at the lower levels.  Intermediate Analysis or Advanced Calculus would be the start of genuine rigor on the analysis stream.  Although, MIT does have an honors section that's considerably tougher than that one.  At home, we put more emphasis on the proofs, and steer away from calculator exercises as much as possible, for the same reasons you hint at.  We're right with you -- math has become way too watered-down for our tastes.

 

At the upper levels, there aren't many courses that do NOT require rigor.  The good thing is, your son should be able to skip the basics and get to the meat quickly, at any school.  Most math students get their first taste with linear algebra.  I assume you'll do that at home (and, MIT-OCW's linear algebra 18.700 is about as rigorous as you can get - 18.06 is the "regular" one).  We'll dig into Fraleigh's algebra at home as time permits, because we prefer the depth and theory, as well.

 

All in all, it means, "don't fret too much."  You've got options!

[Mike in SA]

I do know that the only IMO gold medal winner that has ever come from NZ went to Auckland.  And he applied for 13 top grad programs and got into all 13.  He did his PhD at Princeton.  NZ takes care of their own.  It might be that they tailor the program to the student and get the more advanced students working at a higher level.  I wonder how I find out?  Any ideas?

 

Any decent uni will do this.  Avoid the counselor, and speak with the dean / chair of the department.  They'll make things right.

 

[MBM]

Lewelma, you and your son could contact the heads of undergraduate math departments telling them what he has studied and accomplished and ask for their advice. Some of these profs might offer suggestions about what to study in high school. They WANT to find these kids. My son was contacted and invited to meet with a few department heads to discuss their math program and also merit-based scholarships, internships, undergraduate research opportunities, and what students have done after finishing their undergraduate studies. These were schools with top undergraduate math programs. You could look up those lists and then contact the people in charge.

 

Merit-based scholarships are out there, even renewable ones, and some are generous. You have to dig to find them. My son has received one large one, one small one and is applying for another worth $10K per year that is renewable if he maintains a minimum GPA. Then, summer internships can pay well in certain fields (math, finance, engineering) but students have to research and pursue those opportunities.

 

The problem you might encounter with US schools is meeting general admissions requirements at some of the universities, although they might waive some of the requirements for foreigners.

[Azalea]

The only alumni scholarships Harvard has listed on their website are for Harvard upperclassmen.

http://alumni.harvard.edu/college/undergraduates/awards-and-scholarships The Knox fellowship is for grad school. Are you aware of freshman scholarships?

 

In all honesty, chances are slim to none that students are attending HYPSM on anything other than need-based aid or COA being paid by their family. Universities reduce institutional grant awards when students bring in outside scholarships and the net gain might be eliminating the student contribution but the parental EFC remains untouched. (A $5000-7000 reductionin student contribution in a large unaffordable parental EFC isn't going to make the school suddenly affordable.)

 

This explanation from Brown is pretty good. Outside scholarships are defined as non-gov'tmental.

Since your dh has a really good job, the financial realities that some families face bc schools expect them to pay way more than they can afford does not eliminate the reality that need-based aid is all there is. If you can't pay, you can't pay. There are no merit scholarships that are going to open up that door.

 

If you have never run a net-price calculator, they will give a fairly accurate assessment. You need to know basics....income, investments, home equity, last yr's retirement contributions, etc. you simply plug in the numbers and it will give you a general idea of your cost. Here is Harvard's. (It doesn't ask for as much info as some. ) https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator

 

Fwiw, UC schools are not financially friendly to OOS students.

 

100% agree! Your words just needed to be repeated. 

[8filltheheart]

Merit-based scholarships are out there, even renewable ones, and some are generous. You have to dig to find them. My son has received one large one, one small one and is applying for another worth $10K per year that is renewable if he maintains a minimum GPA. Then, summer internships can pay well in certain fields (math, finance, engineering) but students have to research and pursue those opportunities.

MBM, are they university or outside scholarships? I really think the distinction needs to be made. Parents need to understand that outside scholarships are complicated and that research needs to be done to understand exactly what happens when students earn them.

 

Take a a common example from a full need met schoool. Say a student has a FA package of $30000 in institutional grants, efc of $28000, and student contribution of $5000. The student wins $15000 in outside scholarships. A common outcome is that the new FA package is $15000 scholarship, $20000 grant,and $28000 efc. Different schools do things differently, but that seems typical for most 100% need met schools.

 

In house scholarships also operate differently at different school. Our ds has in-house scholarships covering full cost of attendance bc it allows stacking of scholarships. Some schools don't allow stacking.

[MBM]

MBM, are they university or outside scholarships? I really think the distinction needs to be made. Parents need to understand that outside scholarships are complicated and that research needs to be done to understand exactly what happens when students earn them.

 

Take a a common example from a full need met schoool. Say a student has a FA package of $30000 in institutional grants, efc of $28000, and student contribution of $5000. The student wins $15000 in outside scholarships. A common outcome is that the new oA package is $15000 scholarship, $20000 grant,and $28000 efc.

 

In house scholarships operate differently at different school. Our ds has in hose scholarships covering full cost of attendance.

 

Of the bigger ones, one is university and the other he's applying for is outside. Not many students know about the last one. Some years they have no one to give the money. The smaller one is university (NM). They are all renewable if a certain GPA is maintained. They do make FA a bit more complicated to figure out but the financial aid people at his school have been very helpful.

 

At one of the schools where my son was invited, the head of the math department told us that if ds got in and accepted, he would receive two fairly large, renewable scholarships from the university and he would also try to get OOS tuition changed to in-state. Some of the students were also able to get summer internships that paid well. If he would have gone there, his cost would have been very little. This was a school that's in the top ten for math.

[Crimson Wife]

 

If you have never run a net-price calculator, they will give a fairly accurate assessment. You need to know basics....income, investments, home equity, last yr's retirement contributions, etc. you simply plug in the numbers and it will give you a general idea of your cost. Here is Harvard's. (It doesn't ask for as much info as some. ) https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator

 

I haven't run Harvard's NPC but I do know what we are expected to pay for my return to school. It's a lot, but it's far less than the "sticker price" at a school like Harvard. And presumably the amount we'd be expected to pay towards a child's education would lower than the amount expected to pay towards my own education since the student's own assets are weighted a lot more heavily than the parents' assets.

[Crimson Wife]

 Or ethical objections?

 

You've got ethical objections to ALL community service? I'm calling B.S. on that. National service does not have to mean military enlistment. AmeriCorps type projects would fall under national service.

[Butler]

Any decent uni will do this. Avoid the counselor, and speak with the dean / chair of the department. They'll make things right.

 

Mine started really advanced and only took one or two undergraduate math classes I think, all the rest have been graduate level. The math department chair gave his approval after meeting with him in the first or second week of his first semester. I think it's a common thing in math departments to allow students to take courses according to their level.

 

It sounds like your son would do fine with the school in your country and have no problem getting what he needs out of it.

 

Edited to add: this is in response to your question about whether schools would cater to the needs of each student

[luuknam]

I do know that the only IMO gold medal winner that has ever come from NZ went to Auckland.  And he applied for 13 top grad programs and got into all 13.  He did his PhD at Princeton.  NZ takes care of their own.  It might be that they tailor the program to the student and get the more advanced students working at a higher level.  I wonder how I find out?  Any ideas?

 

Well, if you know who that person is, you could find his email address or possibly even phone number (if he works at some university or something) and ask him what he thinks (in retrospect) of his decision to go to Auckland.

 

Since your son wants to go to university at 17, I'd probably leave choosing a university largely up to him. I'd provide advice, but I wouldn't push him to go to a university abroad. If he doesn't come up with that idea on his own by the time he needs to apply, then he's probably not ready to go abroad to university at that age (imo). Of course, that doesn't answer the question of what you should do if he does come up with the idea to go abroad and wants to go abroad, but I don't see a reason to be putting that idea in his head. It's not like you live in a country where the best university isn't even ranked in the top 500 or something, which would be a completely different situation.

[EmilyGF]

One can always transfer after two years if one finds they max out the challenge level...

 

E

[kiwik]

You've got ethical objections to ALL community service? I'm calling B.S. on that. National service does not have to mean military enlistment. AmeriCorps type projects would fall under national service.

Bother language diferences again. Here national service is what compulsory milatary service uaed to be called. I don't have ethical problems with other service but i do with anything that requires any milatary aspect. And i personally woukd not have coped with any 'group' environment at that age. School was unbearable by 14.

 

It is a moot point though as the NZ would never fund it and 18 year olds need to earn as their parents usually can't afford to support them. Work for unemployment benefit is suggested regularly but is it ethical to pay people $3 an hour to do jobs that someone may otherwise be paid minimum wage to do?

[lewelma]

Well, guys, I'm feeling pretty good right now about Auckland.  I have a bunch of questions to ask from a bunch of different people, but it does sound like my concern that Auckland would not be at a high enough level is simply moot.  Which is a relief.  

 

I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond. 

 

 

[lewelma]

There are merit scholarships in NZ.  I think you can get close to a full ride if you score in the top 20 kids in the country in 3 subjects on the scholarship exams. DS could probably do it in Math and Physics. But it could be a stretch in Chemistry.  He would be at a disadvantage compared to kids who have teachers who know how to get the kids those kind of marks.  Not sure *I* want to study those 3 subjects to that level so I could advise him.  Not sure I can hire a tutor whose focus is on scholarship exams, but I could look into it.  Could be money well spent. 

 

However, it would take time away from his IMO prep.  

[kiwik]

If you do look at auckland see if the library has a list or book of Auckland specific schoarships/endowments. They often not widely known and quite specific eg. Daughter of clergy studying mathematics and are often small but you never know your luck.

[raptor_dad]

At Oxford or Cambridge would he be limited to maths or can he also major in physics simultaneously.  I am confused by how their system works.  B/c you mention an interest in theoretical physics, I wouldn't want to eliminate his ability to explore different options.

 

Arcadia posted some of this info earlier....

 

Yes. Cambridge has a Math with Physics option in the Mathematical Tripos first year[1]. It is pitched to math folks considering theoretical physics. The 2nd and 3rd years also have many theoretical physics options within the math course.

 

[1] http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/course/mathswithphysics.pdf

[raptor_dad]

If he wants more challenge but Auckland is the best choice for other reasons, he could use the money you saved by not going to ANU to do a Budapest Semester or "Math in Moscow". Everyone I know who has done those raves about the teaching and the rigor.

 

I don't know of any comparable programs in China, but they might exist.

[Mike in SA]

If he wants more challenge but Auckland is the best choice for other reasons, he could use the money you saved by not going to ANU to do a Budapest Semester or "Math in Moscow". Everyone I know who has done those raves about the teaching and the rigor.

 

I don't know of any comparable programs in China, but they might exist.

:) DW studied under the Russian model. Our kids can attest that American students are wimpy when it comes to rigor! She absolutely refuses to let them off easy...

 

She already thinks she is kind, because her instructors deliberately obfuscated everything in the spirit of sounding intelligent. But, having compared our academic paths, I can confidently state that the Russian model is more rigorous than ours, though it is clearly less so than it was fifty years ago.

[Laura Corin]

At Oxford or Cambridge would he be limited to maths or can he also major in physics simultaneously.  I am confused by how their system works.  B/c you mention an interest in theoretical physics, I wouldn't want to eliminate his ability to explore different options.

 

It looks as though at Cambridge you can do maths with physics in the first year, then you need to choose one or the other.

 

http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/mathematics

 

Oxford has the option of adding in physics later in a maths degree:

 

https://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduate-study/which-course

 

Calvin is doing a joint degree at Oxford, but not all departments do them.

[Laura Corin]

Yep, but I thought commonwealth students got to go cheaper?  Maybe it's just EU...  Anyway, $70k/year is a bit steep for us...

 

Just EU.

[mathwonk]

There are so many excellent posts here, I don't know if this is worth anything, but since I worked a while on it, I will post.

 

Even after going through all these stages more than once, it is hard to say something useful on this topic.  We always chose what seemed like the best places we could get entrance to, regardless of the cost, but I have wondered since then what it would be like to have back some of those tuition dollars.  The problem was always to find a place that could challenge and meet the needs of the child, and offer the opportunities that were realistic for him.  If the child seemed to merit a top 5 school, it felt like an adjustment to accept a top 10, or top 30 one, much less top 100.

But even spending lots of money early on did not succeed in placing them where they had to work as hard as they needed to, to develop their talents.  Some children differ in this regard, and will work hard in a self directed way, even in a school where intellectual peers are few. But in my own case, and maybe my children’s, the example of a relatively large population of gifted and motivated students was important.  It also seems that the intellectual quality of the faculty, along with that of the courses of study, goes up at the upper levels of school rankings.  This both benefits and is hard on, a child who glides too easily through prep school and ends up at an elite college.

But everything hinges on the fit, for the child involved.  I would ask myself whether the school will challenge this child to his/her capabilities, and offer a future that is within their potential.  And will it expose them to the peer and mentor group that will help them realize that potential, including new experiences that have not yet been encountered.  In phrasing these criteria, monetary cost actually did not occur to me as a consideration.  Part of the reason for this, is that it is my experience that top schools are very wealthy, and are able to genuinely help any child they feel will benefit from and complement their program.  But you may need to ask.

Nonetheless, and never having chosen this option, I believe the best monetary bargain, is clearly always available at the state school with a good honors program.  This will benefit a child who can flourish within a small subset of peers, at a place with a generally mediocre/average intellectual environment.  In my opinion however, even that child may come away from the experience somewhat naive about what is really out there, on their own level.  They will be supported, but perhaps not really pushed, at the lower level school.  At some point it is useful to find out just how good the people really are with whom you wish to compete and/or collaborate, if that is ones goal.

 

 

By the way, as a professional mathematician, those honors projects at Auckland look interesting to me.

 

Also I looked at the list of faculty at Auckland and noticed that Vaughn Jones, Fields medalist, and one of the best mathematicians in the world went there as undergrad.  I think that says a lot, i.e. for math preparation a gifted student apparently needs no better place anywhere.
 

[lewelma]

Thanks for such a detailed post, Mathwonk. Your experience and insight are always appreciated! And I really appreciate you looking at Auckland and commenting on what you noticed.  DS has enjoyed working with the professors who are a part of the IMO program, so I do think there is a strong teaching element in the faculty.

 

I've talked to ds, and he told me that he actually really likes Auckland (he's been there twice for the camp) and would be happy to go there.  I've been reading him some of the different comments on this thread, and I think it has really helped both of us think through the logic of the decision in many different ways.  I have also had a few PMs that have had quite a bit of insight.  He knows quite a few of the kids who are there now because they were in the camp with him.  About 5 kids a year from the camp go to Auckland to study maths.  He has been pretty starry eyed about their brilliance.  :001_smile:   Might be a 14 year old thing, but there is no way to cut it, if you can get a medal at the IMO, you do have some combination of pure talent and hard work.  The group of kids at the camp are so supportive of each other. In fact when there is a shy/aspi kind of kid, they work as a team to draw him/her out over the period of the week.  DS was so excited when they finally convinced one boy to go bowling with them on the last night. So these are the kids at Auckland.  How cool is that?

 

I also like raptordad's idea of doing a program like Budapest or Moscow.  I did not even know these kind of things existed.  

 

 

[kiana]

I went to Budapest and it was absolutely fantastic. I highly, highly recommend it. The mathematics was top-notch and living in an Eastern European culture (rather different than my rural American) was also wonderful. I just wish I could have afforded a full year instead of one semester. 

[lewelma]

Well, Auckland is seriously cheaper than ANU, so with the money saved, maybe we could.  It sounds like a fabulous 3rd option.