college

[lewelma]

This probably should be on the college board, but I would rather discuss it with people who know my kid's story and who have kids in similar situations.

 

Obviously this question is loaded.  What is elite?  How do you defind *need*?  But I want to kick this around.

 

The best university in NZ for math is Auckland, and it is ranked in the top 75 in the world, so not bad but not amazing. I know that there are kids from the math camp that are in that program.  But given that there are only about 4 or  5 a year that are 12th graders in the NZ IMO program, they will certainly not be the entire math program at Auckland. 

 

What I am thinking about is peer group and the resulting difficulty of the program.  Australian National has an honors program in maths that would be only full of kids at my son's level.  The university itself is ranked in the top 20 worldwide, and this is an honors program within it.  It is ranked about equal to Duke. And it obviously pulls from a larger population.

 

ANU would cost us double.  And fortunately or unfortunately, we can afford it, barely.  There is a guarenteed entrance score that I have made sure that my ds can attain (a very long and involved story, but this is why he entered the correspondence school 2 months ago).  So if he wants in, he can get in.  It is not like the lottery for Harvard.

 

So how do you decide what your child needs?  How important is it for an HG kid who has specialized early to work with peers?  What are the implications for choosing the easier program or the harder one?  Tell me what other questions I need to ask....

 

I just need you guys to kick this around with me.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Lawyer&Mom]

I think intellectual peers are important for socialization. Would he have intellectual peers in NZ outside of the math department? Some of my best friends from college were in very different programs.

 

Of course academic peers are important too.

[8filltheheart]

For us the answer is completely trite--the best you can afford. ;) For us, worrying about ranking is purely in the hypothetical world. Worrying about paying is our reality.

 

Ds is attending a lower ranked school and is loving every minute of it. He is part of their elite research honors program which is full of strong students. He jumped right into research as a freshman and is now an active part of 2 particle research projects. His physics professors recognize his ability and have been actively mentoring him. Even though it is a lower ranked school, top undergrads from the uni have gone on to top research institutions for grad school.

 

He is 100% content where he is and I am not worried about him. Our 16 yr old dd, otoh, I am not so sure what is going to happen. She wants to major in French, Russian, and linguistics. She will have enough of a French and Russian background that it should be possible. The only problem is that there is not an actual Russian major at either flagship. The only Russian majors are at 2 tiny regional universities and the depts are very, very small. Her Russian tutor is extremely anti-those programs and sent me an email saying dd will be beyond what they offer before she is even a freshman. Her French is way beyond her Russian, so I am not sure where she fits in there even now. We are meeting with the professors in charge of each major at the local regional university after their semesters have started back up. Can they meet her needs? I am going to have to wait and see. The problem is that all other programs are out of state or private. Both of those categories are really way beyond our reality. So....back to the trite answer. She will be able to attend where we can afford and she will need to make lemonade out of the situation.

 

Ds has peers. I don't know if dd will find any.

[snowbeltmom]

We were in this situation last year and my son was choosing between a school ranked in the top 40 and a "lottery" school.   He loved the atmosphere of the lottery school - said it reminded him of his summers at CTY, but he wasn't sure it was worth the extra price.

 

When the doctors he had been conducting research with found out that he was debating his options, they all told my son that this decision should be a no-brainer - he should go to the lottery school. 

 

Do you know professionals who are familiar with the colleges you are choosing between who could provide you with their professional opinions?

[Mike in SA]

As an undergrad, it matters far less than one might imagine.  Stay an extra year, and get incredible depth.  Then, travel the world for grad school if desired.

 

Seriously, I think it far more important to find a school whose personality matches your own (assuming here that the kid is doing the choosing).

[Donna]

For us the answer is completely trite--the best you can afford. ;) For us, worrying about ranking is purely in the hypothetical world. Worrying about paying is our reality.

 

This is our reality as well.

[Gil]

They'll get whatever college education we can afford.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Double the price to go to a school with a worldwide ranking of 20 as opposed to 75?

 

Will he get double the return on the investment and double the happiness? Double the number of close friends and opportunities? 

 

At some point the returns start to level. Where that point is will vary from person to person. 

 

Sometimes it's not how many, but which ones. What if the one person or opportunity that could potentially change everything is at the school ranked 75th? So many unknowns...

 

Just out of curiosity.... If you didn't use the extra money to pay for school, what could he do with it? Could he use it to travel, buy a car, make a down payment on a house, invest in a venture? 

 

[Arcadia]

Seriously, I think it far more important to find a school whose personality matches your own (assuming here that the kid is doing the choosing).

:iagree:

There are two top universities within commute distance to my home. My "sensitive" kid is comfortable with the vibe of one and not interested in the other. Even my "normal" hubby feels at home in one campus and dislike the other.

 

My laid back kid is biased towards the art center of one campus.

 

I picked the university I attended because it feels more like home. I picked the friends I hang out with from other faculties because I have no interest in talking academics while socializing. They are intellectual peers but not academic peers. Both hubby and I are from engineering but we rarely talk shop with each other.

[JennW in SoCal]

"Fit" is what you need to look for.  Choose the school that best fits your son and your finances.  Your ds needs to visit the schools and figure out what "vibe" feels right, look at what other opportunities there are for him outside his major. I would think your ds would want a school with a good orchestra open to non-majors. Have him sit in on classes, have lunch with the students, get a feel for the level of stress and the kinds of things the students do to relax. Not every intellectual peer is going to be a good social peer, and I think social peers are rather important for this stage of growing up. Why spend a fortune for 4 years of being miserable at a big name, top ranked school?

 

You also need to look at the opportunities each school offers -- do undergrads get to work closely with the faculty? Do they get to do research with the faculty, or independent research?  Do undergrads get to be paid tutors? 

 

My ds chose a small liberal arts school filled with very smart kids who aren't interested in the elite school rat race. My ds was a paid research intern starting his freshman year, he presented at the national geological society meeting in his sophomore year and will be again this year as a senior.  He will also be a co-author on a paper to be published later this year.  He has been a TA and a tutor, too, and most importantly he is a very happy young man with lots of good friends.  It isn't a big name, "elite" school, but he wouldn't have thrived at one of those the way he has at his LAC.

[WinsomeCreek]

For us the answer is completely trite--the best you can afford. ;) For us, worrying about ranking is purely in the hypothetical world. Worrying about paying is our reality.

 

Ds is attending a lower ranked school and is loving every minute of it. He is part of their elite research honors program which is full of strong students. He jumped right into research as a freshman and is now an active part of 2 particle research projects. His physics professors recognize his ability and have been actively mentoring him. Even though it is a lower ranked school, top undergrads from the uni have gone on to top research institutions for grad school.

 

He is 100% content where he is and I am not worried about him. Our 16 yr old dd, otoh, I am not so sure what is going to happen. She wants to major in French, Russian, and linguistics. She will have enough of a French and Russian background that it should be possible. The only problem is that there is not an actual Russian major at either flagship. The only Russian majors are at 2 tiny regional universities and the depts are very, very small. Her Russian tutor is extremely anti-those programs and sent me an email saying dd will be beyond what they offer before she is even a freshman. Her French is way beyond her Russian, so I am not sure where she fits in there even now. We are meeting with the professors in charge of each major at the local regional university after their semesters have started back up. Can they meet her needs? I am going to have to wait and see. The problem is that all other programs are out of state or private. Both of those categories are really way beyond our reality. So....back to the trite answer. She will be able to attend where we can afford and she will need to make lemonade out of the situation.

 

Ds has peers. I don't know if dd will find any.

Of course I don't know your situation, but I do know a kid from an extremely modest background who was able to go to middlebury. I hope your dd finds a fit.

[8filltheheart]

Of course I don't know your situation, but I do know a kid from an extremely modest background who was able to go to middlebury. I hope your dd finds a fit.

 

Middlebury is a pipe dream. Middlebury offers no merit aid and only need-based aid.  We are what is referred to as a donut-hole financial aid scenario.  We cannot afford to pay anywhere near what schools like Middlebury require.  Even if they "discount" COA by 1/2, what is expected from us is still many thousands more than what we can even possibly afford.

[WinsomeCreek]

I'm sorry. We fall into that middle class place where we won't qualify for FA, but can't afford the pricier places. I get that.

 

Dh was given an anonymous scholarship from someone in his church when he was accepted to a special college program (many years ago of course), which has influenced my opinion that it's worth applying if the expense won't kill you. Amazing things do happen.

[rebbyribs]

I have 2 friends who were on NZ's IMO team in 1990 and 1991.  I think both of them did their undergrad degrees in NZ and one also did a Masters in NZ.  They both came to the US for graduate school, which is how I met them.   (One of them is back in NZ and is the NZ IMO team leader - so ask him!)

 

The IMO made the news here in the US the other week when the US team took the gold medal.  Looking around at the IMO website, I realized that I know about 20 former participants.  I know a few from going to a top-ranked, Ivy League U.S. university for undergraduate, but most of them I know from going to a much larger, top-ranked state university for graduate school.  (As a side note, I know most of them from juggling or through mutual friends - I'm not a mathematician.)  I think that all of the non-US people out of that group had completed their undergraduate degrees in their home countries before coming to the US for graduate school.  

 

On the other hand, I really enjoyed my experience at an amazing undergraduate school.  I liked the comment about it being similar to CTY - after the first couple of months I "found my tribe" (band) and enjoyed having close friends for the first time in my life.  It was a rough adjustment academically though - I'd gone to a smallish, rural high school and gotten good grades without ever having to work hard.  

 

After all this rambling, my take on it is that your son will get where he's going by either path, but that he'll likely have a better undergrad experience at the better school, as long as he's comfortable being further from home.  I think if any of my children has the opportunity to go to an elite university, I will try my hardest to find a way to pay for it.  

[Crimson Wife]

Are there scholarships available to your son?

 

For my own kids, it depends on what they want to do after college. My DS who wants to be a robotics engineer would benefit more from attending a MIT/CalTech/Carnegie Mellon/etc. than my daughter who wants to be a speech & language pathologist would from attending Northwestern (which is probably the most prestiguous school offering a Communicative Disorders major).

[Loesje22000]

8fillthe heart,

Is studying Russian in France an option?

Or something like that?

 

If she has reached a certain CERF level in French, she migt be able to study at a French speaking university in Europe.

 

Just an wild idea...

 

For us the answer is completely trite--the best you can afford. ;) For us, worrying about ranking is purely in the hypothetical world. Worrying about paying is our reality.

 

Ds is attending a lower ranked school and is loving every minute of it. He is part of their elite research honors program which is full of strong students. He jumped right into research as a freshman and is now an active part of 2 particle research projects. His physics professors recognize his ability and have been actively mentoring him. Even though it is a lower ranked school, top undergrads from the uni have gone on to top research institutions for grad school.

 

He is 100% content where he is and I am not worried about him. Our 16 yr old dd, otoh, I am not so sure what is going to happen. She wants to major in French, Russian, and linguistics. She will have enough of a French and Russian background that it should be possible. The only problem is that there is not an actual Russian major at either flagship. The only Russian majors are at 2 tiny regional universities and the depts are very, very small. Her Russian tutor is extremely anti-those programs and sent me an email saying dd will be beyond what they offer before she is even a freshman. Her French is way beyond her Russian, so I am not sure where she fits in there even now. We are meeting with the professors in charge of each major at the local regional university after their semesters have started back up. Can they meet her needs? I am going to have to wait and see. The problem is that all other programs are out of state or private. Both of those categories are really way beyond our reality. So....back to the trite answer. She will be able to attend where we can afford and she will need to make lemonade out of the situation.

 

Ds has peers. I don't know if dd will find any.

[madteaparty]

My DS will likely major in English and we'd have to pay full price wherever he goes. If I can get some prestige in return for the insane cost of tuition, I'm not turning it down.

He currently wants to attend a non-US university, of a lottery nature, so I hope he gets that wish.

[sportsmom]

I know that you said that you can manage the tuition of the more expensive school, and I'm not sure how you calculated the budget.  Many of my friends parents paid for school, but they still had to take out some personal student loans during that time.  If he goes the more expensive school route, will he graduate and then have the pressure of student loans to repay?  

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how the NZ system works, but that's a major topic amongst my peers.  Just something else to consider.  I'm enjoying reading everyone's responses.

[arliemaria]

8fillthe heart,

Is studying Russian in France an option?

Or something like that?

 

If she has reached a certain CERF level in French, she migt be able to study at a French speaking university in Europe.

 

Just an wild idea...

 

 

There is a new Russian Orthodox cathedral near the Eiffel Tower in Paris.  I actually don't believe it is finished yet.  I believe there is a decent Russian population in Paris if not France altogether.  Maybe this isn't such a wild idea after all. 

[8filltheheart]

8fillthe heart,

Is studying Russian in France an option?

Or something like that?

 

If she has reached a certain CERF level in French, she migt be able to study at a French speaking university in Europe.

 

Just an wild idea...

 

 

 

There is a new Russian Orthodox cathedral near the Eiffel Tower in Paris.  I actually don't believe it is finished yet.  I believe there is a decent Russian population in Paris if not France altogether.  Maybe this isn't such a wild idea after all. 

 

 

I don't want to derail Ruth's thread.   :)

 

Thank you for the ideas.  This dd was recently diagnosed with Lupus and even with all of the meds she is currently on, her bloodwork came back this week with no change.   :(  She had been seriously considering attending UOttawa b/c they defer international fees if you take 3 classes per semester in French.  It sounded ideal. She could have majored in Russian in French and could have tested for a bilingual certificate in French when she completed her degree.  But, we have eliminated it as an option bc of her health.  (and she is also becoming more "French aware" and doesn't like Quebec French as much as France French.   ;) )  

[Roadrunner]

There is a new Russian Orthodox cathedral near the Eiffel Tower in Paris. I actually don't believe it is finished yet. I believe there is a decent Russian population in Paris if not France altogether. Maybe this isn't such a wild idea after all.

This is not a good reason to study in Paris. There are other reasons, but this isn't one of them. There is a sizable Russian population anywhere you go, especially in the big cities of US. I know, because I have Russian friends who find it hard to avoid their compatriots for reasons not related to this thread. So same goals could be achieved by staying closer to home. The big thing to consider when deciding to go full time to Europe are the differences in higher educational system. Having gone through some of it, I am not a fan. For a language major though, it maybe an option.

[Loesje22000]

 

 

 

I don't want to derail Ruth's thread. :)

 

Thank you for the ideas. This dd was recently diagnosed with Lupus and even with all of the meds she is currently on, her bloodwork came back this week with no change. :( She had been seriously considering attending UOttawa b/c they defer international fees if you take 3 classes per semester in French. It sounded ideal. She could have majored in Russian in French and could have tested for a bilingual certificate in French when she completed her degree. But, we have eliminated it as an option bc of her health. (and she is also becoming more "French aware" and doesn't like Quebec French as much as France French. ;) )

Sorry to hear that 8!

I didn't want to derail the thread either, but can't pm.

I hope she will find her place!

[lewelma]

Thanks for all the ideas, everyone. 

 

A few details:

 

Prestige is a non-issue here.  I know it is a big deal in the USA, but not here.  I only mentioned the rankings to give people a feel for the situation.  Let me try something else given the population that the universities pull from.  The choices would be like going to the best public university in Kentucky or going to the best public/private university in California and being in an honors program.  I am definitely aware of the difference in peers.  And it seems to me that it would matter a great deal in mathematics who your peers were.  With ds being at the top of highschool kids NZ in mathematics at age 14 (top 12 kids), where will he be at 18?  Who will be his peers?  Is the population big enough here to find him peers at a NZ university?  If he stays here, will the classes be too easy and his peers at a lower level?  How much does this matter?  And how in the world would we find out?!?  This to me is the biggest issue, and I think it determines the value of the extra money.

 

On the other side, there is something to be said for being a big fish in a small pond. He is likely to get some personal attention from the professors as an undergrad at Auckland.  I'm guessing this is less true for ANU but couldn't really say.   

 

And to reiterate, ds can get into ANU honours.  There is a guaranteed entrance score that he should be able to meet. He has started young enough on the exams that he has time to retake whatever he needs to.  

 

I think deciding on the worth of double the cost is really important. We can pay.  No loans, but there would have to be some creative sacrifices.  Of course we could always use the money for another purpose. Even just handing him a cheque for the difference is one possibility.  I need to decide before we go visiting if we even want to consider double the pay.  If we don't want to consider it, we won't encourage a visit.  NZ is not like the USA, you don't visit a bunch of universities and find the one with the best fit.  You either go to the university in your town, or you go where the specialist program is (so only one university has a med school for example).  There is just no 'fit' that anyone ever considers. So to go visiting universities would be highly unusual.  Not bad.  Just totally not in the culture, so not something my ds would be expecting.

 

Research - the ANU honour's program is a PhB, bachelors of philosophy.  It *is* a research degree. 

 

Finally, do I want ds to be in a different country in these younger years?  How can I predict if he can handle it?  Do I want him to go?  

 

Ok, that's it for now. Thanks everyone.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I'm going to send you a pm

[Mike in SA]

I'd still suggest going with the one where learning comfort is the best fit, even if no-one else there does it.  If there are only two choices, the school personality is still more important in the long run than strength of intellectual peers as undergraduates.  An adult, even a young one, is not constrained by the walls of a building.  As for my choice, the smaller setting was important -- I needed to interact closely with my instructors.  There were only four (4) physics majors at my university, but even way back then, I had access to all the materiel and intelligence of my peers world-wide. Going to Cal Tech may have been better, but not by all that much, in my case.  I still ended up with a top-20 (worldwide) graduate school.

 

The curricula for mathematics do not vary much in an undergraduate setting.  If he will be moving into differential geometry, it won't be until third or fourth year at ANY school.  Same with algebraic topology.  Local peers have surprisingly little to do with long-term success.

 

In grad school, the difference starts to show.  That's when direct access to an appropriate mentor becomes significant.  Peers, still, will be less about academics than common interests.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

When did you start doing what everyone else is doing or thinking like everyone else is thinking?  ;)

 

It seems making a visit to a university is a trivial matter when compared to your other recent undertakings. It didn't seem to matter much what everyone else was doing then...

 

Why is this situation different?

 

Reread your posts and ask yourself if these are the thoughts of someone unconcerned with fit. 

 

How do you predict how he will do? There are no guarantees. The best we can do is gather all the information available, which probably isn't going to happen if you follow the cultural norms you've mentioned. 

 

Your CA/KY comparison was a funny one to me because I have a friend who made a similar decision years ago. I would have no qualms saying he would likely be your son's peer if they were the same age. My friend left an Ivy League grad school where he was doing well academically because the fit wasn't good otherwise. Where did he go? Kentucky. He finished school there and is now among the top in his field. He wasn't from KY, it just happened to be (and still is) - dare I say it? A good fit. His work is recognized outside of KY and professionally he would be able to do well elsewhere as well,  but he has no intentions of moving. 

 

Would anyone even need to know you are visiting? Just walking around a campus recently was enough for us to realize the location, size, and feel of the school weren't a good match for dd. No one had any idea why we were even there. Just visiting the town was a big clue. Probably enough in and of itself. 

 

I think it also matters how peer driven your son is. Attending gifted camps has helped us realize dd is not peer driven. Access to opportunities and professors are a much bigger factor for her. Thinking of situations your son has been in, do you have a feel for how peer driven he is? Remember you are considering a difference of 20 to 75 worldwide. Not 20 worldwide to unranked anywhere. 

 

The more data you have, the more informed your decision will be. Why make the choice to limit access to information that is pivotal in the decision?

[blackjackoaktree]

Are there scholarships available to your son?

 

For my own kids, it depends on what they want to do after college. My DS who wants to be a robotics engineer would benefit more from attending a MIT/CalTech/Carnegie Mellon/etc. than my daughter who wants to be a speech & language pathologist would from attending Northwestern (which is probably the most prestiguous school offering a Communicative Disorders major).

 

For us it will also depend on if they have a clear view of a career or if they are still in the exploring stage. For some careers, I would be more concerned about grad school. The school atmosphere would be a huge influence. I attended multiple colleges due to only being able to attend near where my DH worked. I actually experienced the most oppourtunites and major-related clubs/activities with things like guest speakers or alumni connections in the field from a medium ranked state school. School A might have looked better on paper or rank-wise, but school B gave me massive networking connections, contact with people in the field already, and opportunities to participate with students who basically geeked-out on the same subject material.

 

Our kids will need to rely on scholorships, loans, and their own savings becuase we will barely be able to contribute, so this will be a huge factor. My two accelerated kids are also the type that would need scholorship paperwork stapled to their forehead to remember to complete it, so that is a factor as well. 

 

Honestly, we have a few excellent schools within a short drive that would be excellent options with room for opportunities if one decided to persue them.

[Momling]

How do you decide how elite a university your child should attend?

 

I don't think parents should decide at all. A student applies, a university decides whether to accept the student or not, the student decides whether to attend. It's not about parents other than to caution at application that "gee... You'll have to take out a lot of loans if you want to go there because it's out of our budget" or "I wonder whether you'll enjoy being so far from home... It'll be difficult to fly home very frequently. " Really though, university is not about us as parents and we should not be the ones making the decisions.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 Really though, university is not about us as parents and we should not be the ones making the decisions.

 

I agree if the student is paying all the bills. When the parent is paying and the price difference is significant, there is no choice but that the parent be involved. It seems part of OP's struggle is deciding if the extra money is worth it. 

 

ETA: This may come down to how a household functions as well. Some families discuss everything. Some don't.  Discussing and making the final decision are two different things. The title of the thread and reality are also two different things. I wouldn't take the title literally.

[sportsmom]

 " Really though, university is not about us as parents and we should not be the ones making the decisions.

 

I agree with Woodland Mist Academy that would be true if the student were paying the bills.

 

I would also suggest that while I understand the point that Momling was making, there is a significant difference between handing over the decisions to a 17 or 18 year old and an early teen, as is the case for Ruth.  Getting input from a child about their goals and which is their preference is much different than to fully hand over the reigns.  At the end of the day, teenagers still need their parents guidance, regardless of how extraordinary they are.

 

Since this isn't a hypothetical case, and we know that Ruth's sole goal is his best interests and his desires, it's hard to objectify.  Obviously, some parents might be more interested in their goals than their child or bragging rights over my kid went to XYZ school at X age, or on the other end, are completely unsupportive of their child's goals - since neither of those is the case in this instance, it doesn't answer Ruth's questions about her son.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, I can somewhat agree with you in theory.  Provided the child is of typical college age and is putting himself through school.

[8filltheheart]

How do you decide how elite a university your child should attend?

 

I don't think parents should decide at all. A student applies, a university decides whether to accept the student or not, the student decides whether to attend. It's not about parents other than to caution at application that "gee... You'll have to take out a lot of loans if you want to go there because it's out of our budget" or "I wonder whether you'll enjoy being so far from home... It'll be difficult to fly home very frequently. " Really though, university is not about us as parents and we should not be the ones making the decisions.

That is absolutely not reality in the U.S.  Students are limited in taking out $5500 in loans freshman yr which increases to a max of $7500 sr yr. Considering the cost of colleges in the U.S., unless a student attends a CC or is independently wealthy, there is no way a student is going to be able to just select schools to apply to and decide whether or not they want to attend.

 

A typical FA package looks something like this:

student contribution: $3500 loan, $2500 work study, $2000 personal contribution (that is the estimate for a summer job and is expected to be provided by the student.)

 

Parental contribution: $xx,xxx

 

If you are a middle class family, your contribution can be well over $100,000 (for some families it is $200,000+) over 4 yrs. Where is a child going to get that kind of funding? Many public school don't offer need-based aid other than Pell grants. Loans are expected for both parent and child.

 

Additionally, homeschool students do not have guidance counselors. Parents have to fill the financial role and the GC role.

[Crimson Wife]

How do you decide how elite a university your child should attend?

 

I don't think parents should decide at all. A student applies, a university decides whether to accept the student or not, the student decides whether to attend. It's not about parents other than to caution at application that "gee... You'll have to take out a lot of loans if you want to go there because it's out of our budget" or "I wonder whether you'll enjoy being so far from home... It'll be difficult to fly home very frequently. " Really though, university is not about us as parents and we should not be the ones making the decisions.

 

Ultimately, it's the child's decision but parents/teachers can help the child make a better-informed one. My DH never would've applied to Stanford if one of his H.S. teachers hadn't encouraged him to broaden his horizons beyond just the local no-name state school that his parents were pushing and his younger siblings wound up attending.

 

I think it's better in general to aim high and try to find scholarships to pay for it than settle for mediocrity. BIL and SIL may have graduated debt-free while DH owed his time to Uncle Sam, but he's in a much better position than they are financially and career-wise (and that's even with all the ups and downs of the past 8 years).

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Woodland Mist Academy that would be true if the student were paying the bills.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, I can somewhat agree with you in theory. Provided the child is of typical college age and is putting himself through school.

I don't even agree in theory unless the student has a guidance counselor who knows what they are doing and they have a massive trust fund.

 

18 yr olds are not typically able to process what living with debt actually means long term.

[Arcadia]

 

I think deciding on the worth of double the cost is really important. We can pay.  No loans, but there would have to be some creative sacrifices.  Of course we could always use the money for another purpose. Even just handing him a cheque for the difference is one possibility.  I need to decide before we go visiting if we even want to consider double the pay.  If we don't want to consider it, we won't encourage a visit.  NZ is not like the USA, you don't visit a bunch of universities and find the one with the best fit.  You either go to the university in your town, or you go where the specialist program is (so only one university has a med school for example).  There is just no 'fit' that anyone ever considers. So to go visiting universities would be highly unusual.  Not bad.  Just totally not in the culture, so not something my ds would be expecting.

 

..

Finally, do I want ds to be in a different country in these younger years?  How can I predict if he can handle it?  Do I want him to go?  

 

 

My only sibling is 9 years younger so my parents could very comfortably bankroll my tertiary education (including two postgrad).  I was one of those kids that gets an allowance (fun money) from parents as an undergrad to just spend. There was three universities in the whole country when I graduated high school and only two of the three has engineering. So I had only two campuses to tour actually. I had made up my mind on my career path long before I was 12 and used to independence young so YMMV.

 

Could you do it as a family vacation instead of a school visit?  When we went back home for a visit, my boys toured the NUS campus.  My boys enjoyed touring the co-op (bookstore), guild house and we were meeting a friend who is a lecturer in engineering so kids tour the engineering school. 

 

My ex-colleague went to Australia for undergrad.  His family bought a house there to stay near the campus.  What I understand is that the house near campus is still significantly cheaper than Singapore's housing prices. At least his mom and younger sibling was staying with him.  AU is not that far from NZ but since hubby and I have been to a talk by a boarding school, we had talk about whether that is a viable option and at what age we think it would be viable. So I do get the parental perspective.

 

What is your child's temperament?   I need social noise so I feel most comfortable in a high rank school that is also high on the "happening" scale.  I enjoyed pubbing even though I don't drink.  I need plenty of foot traffic on campus to feel safe.  I have friends who prefer quiet peaceful campus with very little people walking about.  Since your child is younger, that might be something to look at between the choices.

 

ETA:

As in stands now, both my boys are very likely to want to double or triple major. We are still very much in the generalist stage.

[sportsmom]

I don't even agree in theory unless the student has a guidance counselor who knows what they are doing and they have a massive trust fund.

 

18 yr olds are not typically able to process what living with debt actually means long term.

 

My opinion is generally based on one of my very best friends.  Her parents weren't able to afford to send her to school, but she managed to complete her undergrad and pharmacy school on her own.  It was a decision she made before she had even graduated HS.  Of course, knowing her financial limits, she lived at her parent's home for the whole time, and completed as much as she could in CC.  Fortunately, we have a school with a great medical program locally.  Knowing the school's reputation and her situation, she never considered a different school after undergrad.

 

ETA...It took her 10 years to complete, and she had to work full time the entire time she was in school.  So, it would take a very focused and driven individual in order for it to be successful.

[creekland]

Since you said you can afford either, I'd be visiting both and letting my student decide.

 

My tippy top guy is thriving where he is and loves it.  A student/peer/friend who had his capability, but chose a less expensive school is doing well there, but regrets having made that choice after having seen the differences in opportunities between the schools.

 

My tippy top guy would be tippy top at either of his brothers' schools, but he truly gets to fly at the one he chose.  My other two quite honestly are "smart" enough for middle son's school, but neither would have the desire to do well and take advantage of the opportunities at that level.

 

Middle son's school is Top 30 Nationally in the US - so more or less in the middle of what you are looking at.  However, Top 30 here - and his dept - means they are interacting with many top schools in the world - joint projects.  He has no regrets not trying for "higher."  We have that "advantage" of more choices being equally good sometimes.  (His peer's school is ranked Top 30 regionally for comparison.  They are similar in size.)

[8filltheheart]

My opinion is generally based on one of my very best friends.  Her parents weren't able to afford to send her to school, but she managed to complete her undergrad and pharmacy school on her own.  It was a decision she made before she had even graduated HS.  Of course, knowing her financial limits, she lived at her parent's home for the whole time, and completed as much as she could in CC.  Fortunately, we have a school with a great medical program locally.  Knowing the school's reputation and her situation, she never considered a different school after undergrad.

 

ETA...It took her 10 years to complete, and she had to work full time the entire time she was in school.  So, it would take a very focused and driven individual in order for it to be successful.

 

There is a reason many students attend CCs and transfer or live at home as commuter students and attend local universities.  Your friend's approach is typical for many of our kids' friends.

 

But, the increase in costs is making it harder and harder for that to even be an affordable option for students whose parents cannot help.  Tuition is ridiculous these days.  Even at our non-ranked local university, tuition and fees alone are close to $10,000/yr.   (Middlebury's tuition alone is $47,000. :scared: )  Room and board at most schools can be $10,000 or more.  (at ds's uni it was $12,000 last yr.)  

 

And how does that that relate to the original scenario?? Many top, high-performing students are limited by financial options.  Really good students are found in pockets just about every where.  Not all top students are attending top schools.  Many are found at local universities bc that is the option that exists for them.

[nobeatenpath]

For me the main thing at this age is what is the support network if he moves to Canberra? Is he going to live with another family or share a flat? (I guess ANU has residential colleges, but it is not the norm). Can he manage money on his own? Has he really got the self-discipline to always turn up for class if there is no-one telling him he has to go (or checking on him if he stops turning up?) Will you be able to get him back to NZ every holiday break or will he have to take care of himself during holidays too?

I am someone who left home at 16 to attend university part time and move to a better school, and it was a move far away from my family. I didn't handle the independance all that well (though I had a VERY screwed up upbringing, so I was not set up for it. And moving out of home was probably a good thing in the long run). Intellectual peers and advanced opportunities are wasted if you are broke, or not going to classes, or continually stressing about all the non-academic things in your life. I speak from experience on those ones.

[Crimson Wife]

We have friends who got 80% of tuition paid for at MIT, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. through the ROTC program.

 

If my DS really wants to attend a top college, I'd encourage him to apply for ROTC scholarships (probably Navy since they have the most opportunities in engineering). I wouldn't want to limit him to just the CC-then-transfer-to-Cal Poly route. Not that Cal Poly SLO isn't an okay engineering school, but it's not MIT.

[8filltheheart]

We have friends who got 80% of tuition paid for at MIT, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. through the ROTC program.

 

If my DS really wants to attend a top college, I'd encourage him to apply for ROTC scholarships (probably Navy since they have the most opportunities in engineering). I wouldn't want to limit him to just the CC-then-transfer-to-Cal Poly route. Not that Cal Poly SLO isn't an okay engineering school, but it's not MIT.

 

Would that not depend on whether or not your child wants to serve in the military?  ROTC scholarships come with a 4-8 yr commitment to serve. There are also SMART scholarships https://smart.asee.org/aboutbut they are connected to required DoD service.  

[Crimson Wife]

Personally, I would like to see ALL young Americans of able body and mind be required to perform national service as most other countries require. Get self-centered teens thinking about what they can do to give back to their community instead of thinking that they are entitled to have success handed to them on a silver platter.

[creekland]

Personally, I would like to see ALL young Americans of able body and mind be required to perform national service as most other countries require. Get self-centered teens thinking about what they can do to give back to their community instead of thinking that they are entitled to have success handed to them on a silver platter.

 

There are many volunteer options for teens to get community centered.  It definitely doesn't have to be military.  Having been former military, I sure appreciate the all volunteer service FAR more than if we'd had to put up with members who didn't want to be there!

 

Our kids knew they could go military if they wanted to.  None wanted to.  They've all done significant community (and world) service.  None feel entitled to success handed to them - on a silver platter or otherwise.

[8filltheheart]

Personally, I would like to see ALL young Americans of able body and mind be required to perform national service as most other countries require. Get self-centered teens thinking about what they can do to give back to their community instead of thinking that they are entitled to have success handed to them on a silver platter.

Hmmm....my teens don't fit your stereotype. They are neither self-centered nor do they think that they are entitled to success without it coming from their own effort. But, they are equally uninterested in serving in the military. (Except, ironically, our Aspie, who is completely self-centered, expects things given to him without working for them, and who would never be accepted into any service. ;) )

[Butler]

We focused the most on class offerings/availability. Determine where your child will be mathematically when he starts at the university and then ask:

 

Does the school offer enough classes at or above his level?

Are they offered frequently (is X class offered every semester or only every other year)?

Does the school offer graduate degrees (meaning there will be graduate level classes available)?

I would consider research opportunities but to a more limited extent. Research in math undergrad isn't quite as important for grad school acceptance as it is for other majors like physics.

 

We ruled out LACs (bachelors only schools) due to the lack of graduate courses for our son. Sure he could have worked with a professor one-on-one, but he didn't want to be taking four years of independent studies.

[lewelma]

For me the main thing at this age is what is the support network if he moves to Canberra? Is he going to live with another family or share a flat? (I guess ANU has residential colleges, but it is not the norm). Can he manage money on his own? Has he really got the self-discipline to always turn up for class if there is no-one telling him he has to go (or checking on him if he stops turning up?) Will you be able to get him back to NZ every holiday break or will he have to take care of himself during holidays too?

I am someone who left home at 16 to attend university part time and move to a better school, and it was a move far away from my family. I didn't handle the independance all that well (though I had a VERY screwed up upbringing, so I was not set up for it. And moving out of home was probably a good thing in the long run). Intellectual peers and advanced opportunities are wasted if you are broke, or not going to classes, or continually stressing about all the non-academic things in your life. I speak from experience on those ones.

 

This is of huge concern to me. It is one of the reasons why I am really kicking this around.  I think that as the parent and the guidance councilor, I need to think these things through before I suggest that we go for a visit.  My ds also has no interest in debt, so *I* need to decide if *I* am willing to pay, and that decision depends on what he would get beyond what Auckland can offer.  

 

WoodlandMist, Your post made me smile. No I never do anything that is expected!!  But I think you perhaps misunderstood my post.  DS would not ever even suggest visiting ANU or any other university unless I suggest it.  And I don't want to suggest it unless I think it is a realist option - both financially and life-skills wise as the above post describes.  If he goes at 17, he will be living in a foreign country before the adult legal age.  I am sure there are some repercussions of this.

 

Finally, I chose KY on purpose.  KY has a 4 million person population just like NZ and has good universities just like NZ.  In fact, my father has worked there for 20 years and my sister just got her masters there.  What she found was a few very motivated students but also a lot of undergrads who were there for the fun ride. It seemed like a reasonable comparison.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I picture an honors program at Stanford to be a different situation.

 

more later...

[Woodland Mist Academy]

This is of huge concern to me. It is one of the reasons why I am really kicking this around.  I think that as the parent and the guidance councilor, I need to think these things through before I suggest that we go for a visit.  My ds also has no interest in debt, so *I* need to decide if *I* am willing to pay, and that decision depends on what he would get beyond what Auckland can offer.  

 

WoodlandMist, Your post made me smile. No I never do anything that is expected!!  But I think you perhaps misunderstood my post.  DS would not ever even suggest visiting ANU or any other university unless I suggest it.  And I don't want to suggest it unless I think it is a realist option - both financially and life-skills wise as the above post describes.  If he goes at 17, he will be living in a foreign country before the adult legal age.  I am sure there are some repercussions of this.

 

Finally, I chose KY on purpose.  KY has a 4 million person population just like NZ and has good universities just like NZ.  In fact, my father has worked there for 20 years and my sister just got her masters there.  What she found was a few very motivated students but also a lot of undergrads who were there for the fun ride. It seemed like a reasonable comparison.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I picture an honors program at Stanford to be a different situation.

 

more later...

 

I'm still not sure how you can make that decision without more information, which might come with a visit. Are you afraid to get his hopes up and then crushed if the visit isn't what you had hoped? Is it the hassle and expense? I would think a visit would be much cheaper in both time and money than finding out after the fact.  We faced a similar scenario recently, so I know the trickiness of trying to decide how sure you need to be before taking a big step (which in your case is the visit.)  Even with your clarification, I think a visit is the way to go.

 

I guess what I still don't understand is why the visit is such a big deal. Is it the expense and/or the hassle of traveling to another country? Given what you are considering, a visit seems perfectly reasonable. Is the problem getting his hopes up?

 

Call me cynical, but I imagine the kind of students your sister describes (there for the fun ride) can likely be found at every university, as can students who are diligent and driven. Yes, the percentages will most likely be different, which goes back to a previous question. How peer driven is your son? Does he need to be surrounded by a high percentage of the type of student you are hoping to find? 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Something just occurred to me...your sister must have been reasonably happy in the situation, correct? If not, what kept her there? Why didn't she transfer to a more elite school? Was it not an option?

[lewelma]

I'm still not sure how you can make that decision without more information, which might come with a visit. Are you afraid to get his hopes up and then crushed if the visit isn't what you had hoped? Is it the hassle and expense? I would think a visit would be much cheaper in both time and money than finding out after the fact.  We faced a similar scenario recently, so I know the trickiness of trying to decide how sure you need to be before taking a big step (which in your case is the visit.)  Even with your clarification, I think a visit is the way to go.

 

I guess what I still don't understand is why the visit is such a big deal. Is it the expense and/or the hassle of traveling to another country? Given what you are considering, a visit seems perfectly reasonable. Is the problem getting his hopes up?

 

Call me cynical, but I imagine the kind of students your sister describes (there for the fun ride) can likely be found at every university, as can students who are diligent and driven. Yes, the percentages will most likely be different, which goes back to a previous question. How peer driven is your son? Does he need to be surrounded by a high percentage of the type of student you are hoping to find? 

 

Definitely worried about encouraging him to look at a university that I am either unwilling to pay for or that is too far away. Sometimes he can get something in his head and it is hard to get it out.  I don't want him to feel like he is just settling for Auckland if we go and visit ANU and he loves it and dh and I don't think it is worth the money or don't think he could handle to 'away' part.  I want to be about 80% sure that it is something we are willing to consider before we take him for a visit, and get him thinking a lot about it.  Does that make sense?

 

As for peers, I think you ask some good questions.  I was only thinking that a university has to tailor the classes to the level of the student.  If the students are lower level, then the classes are easier.  I assume that is true for math?  So if he goes to a harder program, then the classes will challenge him.  I think he will want challenge.  So my concern is that if he is in the top math kids at age 14, are they actually going to be able to have classes at an appropriate level when he is 18?  Will there be enough kids at his level to fill the classes?  Or will the classes have to drop to the level where enough kids can pass? This is a small country, there are not a lot of kids that feed into the universities. I am talking straight percentiles. A larger country has more students and so more students at my son's level. It may not be anything an American would have ever thought about.  It is a real concern of mine. So when I am talking peers, I am talking about the level of classes.  Maybe I need to say it a different way?  

[lewelma]

Something just occurred to me...your sister must have been reasonably happy in the situation, correct? If not, what kept her there? Why didn't she transfer to a more elite school? Was it not an option?

 

No, not an option.  She was a returning student at age 40, so she went to the local university because she was not uprooting her family for just a masters.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Definitely worried about encouraging him to look at a university that I am either unwilling to pay for or that is too far away. Sometimes he can get something in his head and it is hard to get it out.  I don't want him to feel like he is just settling for Auckland if we go and visit ANU and he loves it and dh and I don't think it is worth the money or don't think he could handle to 'away' part.  I want to be about 80% sure that it is something we are willing to consider before we take him for a visit, and get him thinking a lot about it.  Does that make sense?

 

As for peers, I think you ask some good questions.  I was only thinking that a university has to tailor the classes to the level of the student.  If the students are lower level, then the classes are easier.  I assume that is true for math?  So if he goes to a harder program, then the classes will challenge him.  I think he will want challenge.  So my concern is that if he is in the top math kids at age 14, are they actually going to be able to have classes at an appropriate level when he is 18?  Will there be enough kids at his level to fill the classes?  Or will the classes have to drop to the level where enough kids can pass? This is a small country, there are not a lot of kids that feed into the universities. I am talking straight percentiles. A larger country has more students and so more students at my son's level. It may not be anything an American would have ever thought about.  It is a real concern of mine. So when I am talking peers, I am talking about the level of classes.  Maybe I need to say it a different way?  

 

Changing the verbiage from peers to level of classes makes a bit of a difference in my mind. Thanks for clarifying. Believe it or not, your situation doesn't sound all that different than the one we are facing.  (Albeit the colleges are not in different countries - that is a huge difference!) (edited) Do we want to spend the $$$ for her to go to a college where challenge is guaranteed, or would she be better off where the situation is different. So much depends on the personality of the student. We have talked over and over about percentages of students at various levels at different universities. I do understand. It's on my mind almost daily. Our situation is a bit different in that her interests are somewhat unique and not universally offered. In some ways I'm grateful, it makes the decision easier!

 

I think being 80% certain before a visit is a good benchmark.