Have you decided to send your kiddos to college early?

[BlsdMama]

Or not? I can't figure out why this is such a hard decision.

 

DS Will be in his junior year this year. He's taking 23 credits at the local community college plus Physics next summer.

 

He is planning on majoring in Engineering - most likely Civil but might go undeclared general eng. initially.

 

If he did his senior year he'd focus on Math and Science at community college. (These would be at the level the state would pay for for dual enrollment 100% because they aren't offered at the high school.)

 

The catch is that most of them wouldn't go towards aanything because Engineering is such specific coursework.

 

However, coursework calls for Calculus 1 his freshman year. If he graduated early he will be taking Pre-Calc (which I think is now called Advanced Linear something or other but essentially the pre-tea to Calculus.

 

If he stays a senior he can take both Calculus (2nd semester) and the pre-req 1st semester.

 

Then there are SAT and ACT scores to think about. His PSAT scores last year were good, but missed National Merit qualifications. I suspect we will miss them this year but it's a possibility.

 

However, I believe he would get better scores by waiting a year.... But I don't know how worthwhile.

 

The University he will be attending is the same his sister attends. They were very generous the last two years, covering full tuition, books, etc. (she lives at home but it would not have quite covered room and board) through a University scholarship and a Presidential scholarship. I am hopeful he would be offered the same but with financial aid changes and our income going up, I'm not sure what they'll offer.

 

So an increased SAT could be beneficial.

 

On the other hand he's a pretty motivated guy. I suspect he's going to feel like he's spinning wheels at the community college even though I know he'll enjoy it. However, he is planning on doing Mock Trial this year and would miss out on a second year of that.

 

Ya'all, assuming he rocks his first semester classes (Intermediate Algebra, Comp I, Intro to Engineering - Project Lead the Way, and Psych.) what would you choose to do and why?

 

This is our first go-around with a 16 year old taking so many classes at community college. I didn't want Ana to graduate early because although she has been very academically successful, socially and time mamagment, it's been a HUGE learning curve. He is a much "busier" guy and he is more outgoing.

[The Girls' Mom]

My younger two will graduate early.  They skipped 8th grade completely.  They'll turn 17 basically the week they finish up their senior year, if things go as planned.  One will have DE classes under her belt and is beginning them this fall (at 15).  My older dd did DE at the same school, and I feel the younger dd will do fine.  She plans to continue at the CC after graduation.  My other 15 year old is planning on going away to college, and is unsure if she wants to pursue any DE classes before-hand.  For us, they are definitely mature enough to graduate early, and capable of doing the work.  

[creekland]

We did not have ours graduate early.  They were having a good time at home (outside of school) and we enjoyed having them here.  I saw no need to rush life.  They have no regrets now - nor do we.

 

With an engineering major, I'd place a high importance on having had at least some Calc in high school as it moves quickly in college.  A super good foundation is needed and that's not always easily picked up when also involved in other "heavy" classes.  Many (not all) retake Calc in college because the high school version was an intro sort of picked up on, but a second time through tends to make it all more clear for that solid foundation.

[EKS]

My son graduated early... sort of.  He has a June birthday and learning disabilities, but we started him in (b&m) school at the normal time and didn't adjust his grade level when we began homeschooling in 2nd grade.  Fast forward to high school and we thought we'd red shirt him (can you do that in high school?) and have him do a second year at the CC.

 

We changed that plan in May of what ended up being his senior year.  I had realized all along that the courses he had planned on taking that next year would need to be repeated at the four year school, but it finally got through to me that taking them twice might be a complete waste of time.  So we graduated him, and he did a gap year.  I am certain that the gap year experience was a much better plan for him than doing those math/science/engineering courses that would need to be repeated.  He had 32 credits (even with counting the CC courses as 0.5 credits each).

 

Anyway, his gap year was awesome and he's going to his dream school in the fall (WPI).  I am so glad that he forewent (is that even a word?) that extra year.

 

ETA:  I didn't notice that he hadn't had calculus yet.  I wouldn't graduate a kid who was interested in pursuing engineering without at least two quarters/semesters of calculus.

[regentrude]

My DD graduated one year early, at age 17. At that point, she had completed 34 credits at a four year university during high school.

We chose not to have her graduate any earlier because there was no point: the dual enrollment at university met her educational needs, and since she was interested in attending a selective university, having the challenging classwork strengthened her transcript. None of her credits transferred, by the way.

 

I would base the decision on the student's abilities, goals, and maturity. Just because one 'can" does not mean one "should". OTOH, of the community college does not offer adequate coursework at the level he needs, it is pointless to attend. If he is "spinning his wheels", then either homeschool or have him do dual enrollment at a real university, if one is near you.

 

I don't see early graduation making much sense with the math issue. I consider calculus a high school level course and would not graduate a student early who did not complete calculus, especially not if the student is interested in science or engineering. At our STEM university, anything below calculus is considered remedial and does not earn credit towards an engineering or science major (except bio). So, he would be behind in math his freshman year, which would affect his sequence of possible classes. You might want to check that out carefully. I don't see starting early beneficial if it means taking longer to finish college because you're out of synch with the standard sequence.

 

Whether he is mature enough to be moving away to college is another issue you need to judge.

[creekland]

Just to define "early" in calendar years... I consider 17 - 19 to be "normal" maturity wise.  While my older two were 18, they had literally just turned 18.  If their birthdays were later they'd have been 17.  Nineteen can be normal based upon when a student starts school or if they take a gap year, etc.

 

Educationally/academically (such as with math in this situation) is a totally different matter.

 

I realize I'm not Grand Pumba of the Universe, so others can disagree with my parameters.  I just wanted to define mine.

[The Girls' Mom]

Yeah, I realize 17 may not be considered early...it just is for our family. :) There is almost 4 years between my oldest and my twins, but there are only going to be 2 years difference in graduation years.  To me it is early because they've accelerated their education past where they would be in PS and compared to their sibling that did the standard grade levels.

[bettyandbob]

I think it would be hard to be accepted to engineering school without having had calc or at least being ready to start calc first semester. If I'm reading your post correctly, graduating early would mean he did not have even precalculus. I don't think I'd consider graduating anyone early with just algebra 2, even if their plan was to study a non math field. For a kid interested in engineering, I'd keep him home and focus on getting more math and more solid understanding of math. At most schools if he starts first year with precalculus, he with be behind and may not acquire the prerequisites he needs to stay on track to finish the degree in four years.

 

I don't think graduating early is that great a thing for many kids. Some kids are ready for it, but not all. This is my experience being in a family of intellectually talent people who took a lot longer to mature.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think I would keep him in high school as long as there were still math and science courses at the CC that met his needs.

 

In other words, if he needs calculus and the CC offers it for dual enrollment, then stay listed in high school.

 

If he is beyond calculus or beyond the math offered at the CC, then consider moving him along.

 

 

I think that there are a lot of talented kids who want to be engineers.  The more math and physics they have going in to college, the more prepared they are to succeed.  I think most college engineering curriculum assume that freshmen will start with calculus and progress from there.  And in many cases, the fellow engineering students will have already seen calc in high school.

 

I went to an engineering dominant college having nothing higher than pre-calc in high school.  It closed a lot of doors to me.  Not only was I not prepared to choose an engineering degree, but I also struggled through many of the math heavy core courses.  

 

I think it would be worth looking at the degree plans for engineering degrees at likely schools to see what freshmen are taking and how quickly the courses ramp up.

[Jenny in Florida]

I sent one very early and one just a bit early.

 

My daughter went into a residential early entrance program at a women's college when she was 12. She'd done some online high school classes, but had no college credits and no classroom experience. There was an adjustment, of course, but she did fine and graduated with her B.A. four years later, just after her 16th birthday. For a while after graduation, she felt fairly ambivalent about her experiences, although none of us have ever been able to come up with an alternative path that we felt sure would have worked out better for her. Four years later, though, she's living on her own and doing a two-year actor's training program (just finished her first year with flying colors!) and very happy to be getting started on her life. Every now and then, she realizes that most of her age peers are still a year or two away from a degree and is thrilled anew to be where she is.

 

My son began dual enrollment at the community college when he was 15, officially graduated from high school a year later, and started his university career at 16. He transferred in 19 credit hours from the community college plus two CLEPs. His first semester was a bit rocky in terms of grades, although he was happy and thriving in pretty much every other way. He pulled it together for the second semester and brought his GPA up high enough to hang onto all of his scholarships. He did six productions on campus last year (performing arts major), started a new dance ensemble and was named the best newcomer in theatre for the year. So, I feel pretty sure we made the right choice supporting his desire to go early.

[MarkT]

 

Ya'all, assuming he rocks his first semester classes (Intermediate Algebra, Comp I, Intro to Engineering - Project Lead the Way, and Psych.) what would you choose to do and why?

 

Hmm "Intermediate Algebra" at a CC is usually a water-downed Algebra 2 (especially compared to Common-core Algebra 2).  

Does he take College Algebra next?   Any Trig?

 

I only mention this because he is interested in Engineering and Math is very important.  

[Catherine]

My personal experience is with a kid who was in HS for 5 years, because he spent a year between junior and senior year as an exchange student, and we chose not to use this for academic credit.  He is not an engineer, but is a math major.  He had taken AP calc BC, Linear Algebra as a self-study course, and Discrete Math at a local 4 year university.  He took the honors math sequence at his school, basically a more theoretical, proof-based calculus sequence and has not regretted starting with that despite having some advanced math in HS.  When deciding to take this path, he discussed his plans in detail with a math prof at his intended school (this was the summer before freshman year and this prof totally did not need to spend so much time on the phone with an incoming freshman he didn't even know), and given his plan to study math, physics or engineering, he chose this path.  No regrets here

 

ITA with other posters who've pointed out the importance of a very solid foundation in calculus and algebra for students planning to pursue engineering, math or physics in college.  In fact one cautionary tale is dd's friend, who was a good HS student and did well in our state flagship's engineering school, until he got to multivariate calc, which he took and failed 3 times (!!) until he was forced to give up engineering and choose a different major.  I think the moral here is that you can't really possible have too much math if you are planning to pursue a STEM degree in college.  

 

Questions of age per se are slightly different and more individual, having to do with the student's maturity, and really you are in a position to know that better than we are.  Obviously some people on this board have had young, sometimes VERY young kids succeed in college.  

[BlsdMama]

Hmm "Intermediate Algebra" at a CC is usually a water-downed Algebra 2 (especially compared to Common-core Algebra 2).  

Does he take College Algebra next?   Any Trig?

 

I only mention this because he is interested in Engineering and Math is very important.  

 

 He took the COMPASS math placement test about seven months ago and placed in Intermediate and I gave it a month and had him test again.  He barely missed (two points) placing out of Intermediate Algebra.  But, guess what?  He can only take the COMPASS twice a year.  So even though he's now completed Algebra 2 at home, the only way  for him to take a math course up there is to start with Intermediate Algebra.

 

This was totally my fault.  Sigh.

 

But the schedule is: Intermediate Algebra then Trig & Analytical Geometry then College Algebra with Limits the Calculus I.

 

So, he would take Int. Algebra this coming semester, Trig next semester, then next year College Algebra & Calculus !.

 

I think my biggest concern is: Will Calc I at the community college level be the same/adequate as the University?  Because if not, filling his senior year with what will, essesntially be electives because the engineering program doesn't contain a lot of flluff, is a wasted year, verses him being behind by not taking Calculus before he enters and having to take the extra class, if that makes sense.

[creekland]

 I think my biggest concern is: Will Calc I at the community college level be the same/adequate as the University?  Because if not, filling his senior year with what will, essesntially be electives because the engineering program doesn't contain a lot of flluff, is a wasted year, verses him being behind by not taking Calculus before he enters and having to take the extra class, if that makes sense.

 

This will totally depend upon the cc class, but general odds would say no, they will not be the same caliber.

 

However, this does not mean the class has no use.  It honestly is good for the majority of engineering students to have Calc in a watered down version, then engineering Calc.  Talented math students can skip the repeat, but it really doesn't sound like your guy would be in that category.

 

I had my own two homeschooled students repeat Calc in college just because it tends to be a tough class, then combine it with other tough classes... an edge is good.

 

MY pre-med guy appreciated the easy A and several of his pre-med peers who skipped it wished they hadn't as they ended up with Bs in Calc 2.  A good, solid foundation is never a waste.

 

My business guy was bored and wished he had taken the AP test to test out.  Business Calc and Engineering Calc are two totally different courses though.

 

Hubby is a working PE (Civil Engineer).  He started with Calc in college - and failed it on his first try.  It caused him to have to take 5 years to graduate rather than 4.  He's still an excellent engineer, but it definitely would have helped if he'd been exposed to Calc in high school.  Many who start in engineering and fail (or do poorly in) Calc soon change majors as they get discouraged.

 

[MBM]

If your son doesn't mind self-studying, maybe he could try working on some math by himself while also working on the cc math courses. Something that would strengthen and widen his understanding without the pressure of getting good grades would be ideal. This is what my son likes to do.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/find-by-topic/#cat=mathematics

 

Or, maybe an intro to computer science course:

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/find-by-topic/#cat=engineering&subcat=computerscience

 

Many engineering programs hit the ground running. Having a strong math and science background can make the first year much easier as students adjust to college. Also, your son might want to take some of the AP exams or SAT 2 exams if the university he's considering gives credit for them.

 

If the university takes into account SAT/ACT scores for scholarships, he could also retake them to try to improve his scores.

 

[bettyandbob]

Having a math course not transfer does not mean it was a waste. If your ds has not been exposed to more higher math before entering an Engineering program he will be at a significant disadvantage. I live in Virginia, so Virginia Tech is my recent experience. When we visited that school last year, the admissions officer stated that if the admissions committee does not see the highest level of math offered at your school on your transcript, they probably won't accept you in the engineering program. How does that translate to homeschool? Across Virginia AP calculus is now available to every public school student through virtual academy programs. So, the admissions officer was basically saying having a calculus course during high school was a minimum. Not having calculus will hinder chances of getting into engineering school to start.

 

If you ds gets admitted without having had calculus, he will be in class with large numbers of students who already took calculus through DE or AP programs and opted not to transfer credit. Over 30 years ago when I attended a very competitive university more than 2/3 of my first semester calculus class had taken calculus in high school. The amount of students taking more advanced math in high school has increased since then. So, even at less competitive schools you will find many students have taken calculus in high school and many of those students will opt not to place out of calc 1. So, your ds will be in a class that has a lot of depth, moves quickly and many of his classmates will be familiar with the material.

 

It would be a shame for a student to go in unprepared and decide he needs to switch career directions because he feel incapable. I think your ds should take as much math as he can at the cc to have the foundation he needs.

[amy58103]

I wouldn't graduate a future engineering student early if they haven't completed a calculus course.  And if he doesn't complete pre-calculus before high school graduation, I would be worried that he wouldn't be accepted into the engineering major at the university.  

 

Would he be able to knock out some of the university's general education requirements at the CC during his senior year... eg. history, economics, sociology?  Its not unusual for engineering students to have to take 17-18 credits per semester to meet all of the major and general education requirements.  Not having to take a 3 credit social studies course when you are taking 14 other credits in math/science/engineering courses is a huge plus! 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 He took the COMPASS math placement test about seven months ago and placed in Intermediate and I gave it a month and had him test again.  He barely missed (two points) placing out of Intermediate Algebra.  But, guess what?  He can only take the COMPASS twice a year.  So even though he's now completed Algebra 2 at home, the only way  for him to take a math course up there is to start with Intermediate Algebra.

 

This was totally my fault.  Sigh.

 

But the schedule is: Intermediate Algebra then Trig & Analytical Geometry then College Algebra with Limits the Calculus I.

 

So, he would take Int. Algebra this coming semester, Trig next semester, then next year College Algebra & Calculus !.

 

I think my biggest concern is: Will Calc I at the community college level be the same/adequate as the University?  Because if not, filling his senior year with what will, essesntially be electives because the engineering program doesn't contain a lot of flluff, is a wasted year, verses him being behind by not taking Calculus before he enters and having to take the extra class, if that makes sense.

 

Instead of looking at the CC dual enrollment courses as college classes that won't transfer and would thus be "wasted" think of them as the upper level courses he would be taking if he were at a high school that offered classes like AP Calc and AP Physics C (the calc based physics classes).

 

Many engineering freshmen will be coming into their first college semester having already taken calculus and physics in high school.  Engineering programs are notorious for having tough majors courses in early years that serve as weed out classes (at my college it was Strengths of Materials and Statics that turned many aspiring engineers into humanities majors).  

 

I think not having calculus and needing to take Calc I first semester freshman year as an engineer could result in more than having to take an extra class.  For example, Purdue has a typical plan for First Year Engineering students (knowing that many aren't sure what type of engineering they want to pursue until they have more exposure).

 

A student needs to be able to take and suceed in Calc I first semester, because second semester not only has Calc II, but calc based physics.  And remember that many degrees have highly sequenced progressions.  There may be a great many Statics classes in the fall, but very few in spring; because students are expected to have moved onto Dynamics.  Or multiple courses may have the same pre-requisite course (like Calc 2).

 

If the bulk of a Calc I class already had calculus in high school, the instructor is going to teach to that expectation.  Students who are new to the subject will not be seeing those lessons in a refresher mode, but will have to absorb and understand them quickly and be able to keep up with the pace of homework, even while they are learning what is new material to them.  (I was that student.  I still remember the name and face of the instructor who said, "I know this is review for all of you, so I'll go quickly," and proceeded to fill the board with figures, symbols and concepts I'd never encountered before.  And FWIW, that was the math class I was placed into based on the college placement test.)  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't look at courses like Calc I as meaningless electives, even if they aren't accepted as transfer courses.  I look at them as essential prep for demanding university level programs, as well as coursework that may well be what makes him an attractive candidate both for admissions and for merit aid.

 

 

FWIW, I would also try calling the Dual Enrollment Counselor and ask for an exception on the Compass testing policy.  Explain that he took the test six months ago and has completed a similar course to what he placed into then.  Or ask if the math department has a way to request an exception to the placement.  Depending on the school and your ds, this might have more effect if your son can be the one having the conversation.  [Our local CC has hesitations over DE students and is happier when they do the bulk of their own registering and advocating.]

[EmilyGF]

About the calculus before college... I think it is vital. My friend's story:

 

My friend took calculus the summer before he went to college at a community college because his father refused to let him start an engineering degree at college without calculus. His brother had attempted to do so, failed calculus, and changed his major. They attended a small high school that did not offer calculus.

 

Emily

[MarkT]

 He took the COMPASS math placement test about seven months ago and placed in Intermediate and I gave it a month and had him test again.  He barely missed (two points) placing out of Intermediate Algebra.  But, guess what?  He can only take the COMPASS twice a year.  So even though he's now completed Algebra 2 at home, the only way  for him to take a math course up there is to start with Intermediate Algebra.

 

This was totally my fault.  Sigh.

 

But the schedule is: Intermediate Algebra then Trig & Analytical Geometry then College Algebra with Limits the Calculus I.

 

So, he would take Int. Algebra this coming semester, Trig next semester, then next year College Algebra & Calculus !.

 

I think my biggest concern is: Will Calc I at the community college level be the same/adequate as the University?  Because if not, filling his senior year with what will, essesntially be electives because the engineering program doesn't contain a lot of flluff, is a wasted year, verses him being behind by not taking Calculus before he enters and having to take the extra class, if that makes sense.

Can he still take the Intermediate Algebra this summer maybe online?  Then start with Trig & Analytical Geometry ?

 

He can take the AP Calc exam near the end of his DE class. This would give you a good idea if the class was equivalent.

You could also just take an older one and self-score to save the $92.

[Gwen in VA]

100% agreement about calculus before high school graduation here!

 

One other thing -- what about alternate scenarios? My ds2, a VERY strong student academically, went off to college and dropped out after his freshman year for a variety of reasons. (He is now happily building wooden boats in Maine!) He has said how much he appreciates the academic rigor of his high school experience -- since he was only in college for one year, mostly he only has his high school academics to build on. (This is a kid who reads fluid dynamics textbooks for fun, but you get the idea -- make sure the foundation is STRONG!)

 

If your kid has a "change of priorities" during his freshman year, he may never get beyond that point in school. Make sure his foundation is solid! (Translation -- don't rush him into college if you are having doubts.)

 

Also, we know a young man who wanted to major in engineering but who hadn't taken calculus in high school. He couldn't take engineering physics his freshman year, so he will have to take five years to graduate. I hate to think about how much money the lack of that one class will cost his parents!

[BlsdMama]

Thank you all for the advice - it's much appreciated.  I think if he wasn't going into engineering this would be a non-issue, but because it's specific to engineering and because he's really QUITE sure, I'd really rather have him take Calc I (and maybe Calc II) at the community college before heading off to the University.  I DO think I'll call the school and ask for an exception on the COMPASS test.  

[shawthorne44]

Do you know which school he is most likely to attend?  You could go ahead and get the book they use and a syllabus.  Maybe even see if the class has online stuff available.  Your son could do the CC work and the college's work at the same time.  It would seem a huge advantage to me to have one of the hard classes your first college semester be an easy one.  

 

My degree is in Physics which required enough math that I could have gotten a double-major in Math if I'd chosen two different math classes.  The only two math classes that were really hard were Calc II and Partial Differential Equations.  So, if he has time to do Calc II at the CC, I would recommend it.  

[creekland]

Thank you all for the advice - it's much appreciated.  I think if he wasn't going into engineering this would be a non-issue, but because it's specific to engineering and because he's really QUITE sure, I'd really rather have him take Calc I (and maybe Calc II) at the community college before heading off to the University.  I DO think I'll call the school and ask for an exception on the COMPASS test.  

 

See if they will allow him to take it again even though it hasn't been 6 months.  Explain why.  You only want him in the next course if he legitimately tests into it and by a decent margin.  "Barely making it" is not a solid enough foundation for a future engineer.  It's only good enough for those who just need to check a box on the math.

 

Assuming it works out well and he ends up taking Calc at the CC, let the math dept at the 4 year school determine if that course was good enough or not.  They tend to know these things far better than admissions will.  Often there are math placement tests in colleges too - or finals from the "same course" that he can look at/take and see how he'd have done.

[katilac]

Another reason I would not graduate him early is timing. In your scenario, he would be applying to colleges in the spring of his senior year - that is very late for competitive programs and merit aid. My rising senior completed her first two college applications today, and will be done by December. This is for good schools with merit aid, but not highly selective schools. 

 

Now, she does not have to apply quite this early, but the schools on her list have priority deadlines (for merit aid) in October, November, December. Applying after the first semester increases the risk that the merit money pool will be depleted, and she can't afford her top choices without it. Definitely check his top few schools and see what their priority deadlines are, not just the deadline for applying. 

 

I would graduate him on time, and not worry whether any of the math credits will transfer. 

[BlsdMama]

Another reason I would not graduate him early is timing. In your scenario, he would be applying to colleges in the spring of his senior year - that is very late for competitive programs and merit aid. My rising senior completed her first two college applications today, and will be done by December. This is for good schools with merit aid, but not highly selective schools. 

 

Now, she does not have to apply quite this early, but the schools on her list have priority deadlines (for merit aid) in October, November, December. Applying after the first semester increases the risk that the merit money pool will be depleted, and she can't afford her top choices without it. Definitely check his top few schools and see what their priority deadlines are, not just the deadline for applying. 

 

I would graduate him on time, and not worry whether any of the math credits will transfer. 

 

 

He'll be going to the in-state flagship.  It's a solid engineering school, not highly selective, but we really want our kids to graduate as close to debt free as possible.  They gave DD a full ride (not inc. room and board because she lives at home) and DS' sophomore PSATs were higher than her junior PSATs so I assume his SATs will be at least as good as hers.  However, the consideration you pointed out still does make good sense even in our scenario.

[BlsdMama]

See if they will allow him to take it again even though it hasn't been 6 months.  Explain why.  You only want him in the next course if he legitimately tests into it and by a decent margin.  "Barely making it" is not a solid enough foundation for a future engineer.  It's only good enough for those who just need to check a box on the math.

 

Assuming it works out well and he ends up taking Calc at the CC, let the math dept at the 4 year school determine if that course was good enough or not.  They tend to know these things far better than admissions will.  Often there are math placement tests in colleges too - or finals from the "same course" that he can look at/take and see how he'd have done.

 

Very good points!