SAT II vs AP

[JDoe]

Just want to hear some opinions about why one should opt for one or the other (or both or neither)?

[regentrude]

SAT2 subject tests may be required by a college. they test high school level knowledge.

AP might give college credit. They test college level knowledge.

If student does AP, he might as well throw in SAT2.

 

 

We opted for SAT2s. They were required, and we preferred DE over AP to demonstrate college level mastery. Her school does not give credit for eitehr anyway.

[swimmermom3]

As regentrude said, if you do the AP course, you might as well go for the SAT 2. Our state university system requires the Math I Subject test for all homeschoolers. We just figured if he was going to be at the testing site for math, he might at well do the Literature and Biology, which he just finished the AP classes for.

 

Even if you do DE, some universities may still require 3 SAT 2s from homeschoolers. You'll need to look at specific schools.

[G5052]

Yes, we do the SAT II right after the AP for those courses that we chose to do at the AP level.  The SAT II is a one-hour, multiple choice test, and you might as well after all the work that went into the AP.

 

Mine also do the math SAT II because we don't do that at the AP level (both struggle some) and having a SAT II math score helps verify the grades I assign in that subject.  The more selective schools my oldest applied to highly recommended a foreign language SAT II and a math SAT II, and preferably a third one in any field.  He had no problem getting in on early decision.

[JDoe]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Would I be correct to say that SAT II tend to be more important in the admissions process, since doing the SAT II is suggested even if doing AP? That is the AP may not be factored into the admissions process in the same way without the accompanying SAT II scores?

 

 

DE is unlikely to be an option for us, but I might need to place directly into sophomore if we opt for US (restrictions on financing), how likely are the AP to be helpful in this respect?  I realise that that this is likely to be school specific, but would appreciate any input on a general level. (Luckily still a few years away still, even for the eldest). 

 

[snowbeltmom]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Would I be correct to say that SAT II tend to be more important in the admissions process, since doing the SAT II is suggested even if doing AP? That is the AP may not be factored into the admissions process in the same way without the accompanying SAT II scores?

 

 

DE is unlikely to be an option for us, but I might need to place directly into sophomore if we opt for US (restrictions on financing), how likely are the AP to be helpful in this respect?  I realise that that this is likely to be school specific, but would appreciate any input on a general level. (Luckily still a few years away still, even for the eldest). 

 

The answers to your questions are really going to depend on the college.  Some colleges require every applicant to submit SAT II scores, some colleges only require homeschoolers to submit SAT II scores, while other colleges won't even consider SAT II scores as part of their admission process.

 

You can go to a school's Common Data Set to determine how the schools on your list treat SAT II's and AP's.

 

Fwiw, since my kids don't always have a college list determined until junior year, my kids have/will have three Subject Test scores along with AP scores in subjects they are interested in so they don't close any doors.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

SAT2 subject tests may be required by a college. they test high school level knowledge.

AP might give college credit. They test college level knowledge.

If student does AP, he might as well throw in SAT2.

 

 

We opted for SAT2s. They were required, and we preferred DE over AP to demonstrate college level mastery. Her school does not give credit for eitehr anyway.

 

Are you sure about that? I'm almost positive her university awards credit for APs. Unless I'm confused about which school she is attending, there is more than one by the same name, she is in a special program that doesn't accept them, or I'm otherwise mistaken.

 

I'm just starting the high school merry go 'round, so I'm interested in knowing if schools sometimes list that they accept them, but then don't. Thanks!

 

https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/contact/faq

Do you accept College Credits from classes in high school, Advanced Placement (AP) and International Baccalaureate (IB) credit?

Yes. Generally, we accept a 4 or 5 on AP tests and a 6 or 7 on IB examinations. You can learn more about entering the college with outside credit by visiting our College Catalog.

 

http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/examinationcreditandtransfercredit/#advancedplacementcredit

[regentrude]

Are you sure about that? I'm almost positive her university awards credit for APs. Unless I'm confused about which school she is attending, there is more than one by the same name, she is in a special program that doesn't accept them, or I'm otherwise mistaken.

 

OK, I wrote too quickly and was not precise. The school does not give credit for DE (it does on paper, but the restrictions are severe and it just don't give much of an advantage). It does give credit for some APs, but not for all, and not necessarily in the subject. English AP gives credit for general elective only (which beats me why anybody would want to do this instead of actually taking an elective class); Foreign language AP does not confer any credit and just serves to get out of the competency requirement (which a placement test accomplished as well); Physics AP would give credit for the standard sequence, but not the more rigorous honors sequence for majors. So, in all the subjects where she did college level work, APs would not have gotten her any advantage.

(But this was not the reason we didn't do APs.)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks for clarifying.  So, it's not so much that the school doesn't offer credit -  they clearly do - it's that the credit they offer wasn't seen as overly advantageous for your daughter. That makes sense. Every situation is unique. Thanks, again.

 

OP: The current plan is for my daughter to do both. Two or three SAT 2s are required by some of the schools she is considering, so those are a must for her. She wasn't going to take APs until we started researching schools and started comparing AP to DE. For her, at least for now, the best plan appears to include both SAT 2s and APs.

 

[chiguirre]

English AP gives credit for general elective only (which beats me why anybody would want to do this instead of actually taking an elective class);

You can save a lot of money if you're full freight and graduate a semester early. My APs got me out of Penn in 7 semesters instead of 8 and the tuition I saved from my college fund bought my first car (a very chic Ford Escort station wagon).

 

Back to OP's question: it is well worth checking out the policies of the schools your kids might be interested in. Highly ranked public schools tend to give a lot more useful credit for APs than private schools and may accept CLEPs (which are awesome because you don't have to go begging for a test site) . You may be able to take distance classes from accredited schools which will transfer (Thomas Edison State, Clovis Community College, maybe the new EdX/ASU partnership) to some schools. The public universities may not actually be much cheaper if you're an international student, but their policies may make the overall cost lower.

[Pen]

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

Would I be correct to say that SAT II tend to be more important in the admissions process, since doing the SAT II is suggested even if doing AP? That is the AP may not be factored into the admissions process in the same way without the accompanying SAT II scores?

 

 

DE is unlikely to be an option for us, but I might need to place directly into sophomore if we opt for US (restrictions on financing), how likely are the AP to be helpful in this respect?  I realise that that this is likely to be school specific, but would appreciate any input on a general level. (Luckily still a few years away still, even for the eldest). 

 

 

 

One college on our possible colleges list I believe requires 4 SAT2 tests for home schoolers.  Another specifically requires one in Math (level 1 or 2), and for our situation, one in a Foreign Language, plus at least one other of the student's choice, so a minimum of 3 in all. So far of the colleges that seem possible for ds to consider (which keeps changing as he thinks he does or does not want to be far from home and so on) all require at least 2 SAT2 tests. At present, it looks like ds will have a minimum of 4 SAT2 tests to take...and maybe 5 if the exact requirements of some of the colleges for home schoolers end up meaning that some needed for one school do not perfectly overlap with another school.

 

We will look to doing what is required ahead of what is optional. (AP and CLEP being optional).  And I only expect him to take AP tests at this point if it looks like there would be a good reason to do so according to the rules for specific places he is applying.

 

Where we are, AP tests present more of a challenge to find locations, possibly deal with accommodations, and so on than SAT2s. I think for my ds a few DE classes which at the moment look like they will be easier to arrange (though still a challenge due to distance) will work out better than AP classes.  Possibly a DE in foreign language will change the SAT2 tests needed as per paragraph 1 above.

 

Most AP tests usually involve significant essay answer writing. Most SAT2 tests are multiple choice. There has been one called writing which I do not know how it works, and some of the FL ones have an audio component. And I guess that AP calculus has a lot of writing, but not really essays. So there are exceptions, but in general, the amount of writing is greater for AP tests. So if a child has dysgraphia or that sort of thing, it can make a difference.

 

It looks like taking a lot of these tests will be difficulty for us to arrange just because he is in home school and because we live probably 45 minutes from the nearest school that is a test center for any of these tests, plus having some health and other issues to consider.

 

If you are applying from overseas as the post seemed to imply, I am wondering how you would manage to take AP tests at all?  Do they offer them in other countries, or would you spend a few weeks in a US city to do it?  

 

I think if you were applying internationally, you would look at the exact requirements for international applicants (and also home schoolers if applicable) for each college you might be considering.

[Carpe Diem]

What does DE mean?

 

If you have a child that will be a senior in the fall when is the best time to take the SATII? If you take it after the AP test which are in May won't that be too late for applying for college. Thanks.

[regentrude]

What does DE mean?

 

If you have a child that will be a senior in the fall when is the best time to take the SATII? If you take it after the AP test which are in May won't that be too late for applying for college. Thanks.

 

DE is dual enrollment = college classes while in high school.

 

If the child is a senior in the fall, the best time for SAT2s would have been during sophomore and Junior year. It is easiest to do the exam immediately after finishing the course.

The scores from the fall test dates will still make it in time. One advantage of SAT2 over AP is that AP is only offered in May, but SAT2 in most months (except for foreign languages, which is offered only once a year with and once a year without listening)

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There are some schools that requires SAT subject tests from all applicants. Some require them from homeschoolers or students who don't meet certain state course requirements.

 

I haven't seen a school that required AP scores. But the reality is that some competitive colleges have incoming students who mostly have at least a few up to many AP courses on their transcript. Where we lived in VA AP classes were the default for college bound students. These schools offered few honors classes because everyone was directed in AP.

 

We have occasionally had to travel to get to a testing site. However we had to travel about the same distance to get to an SAT test site.

 

Our goal has been to do rigorous classes either at home or online or at CC. They will have some AP, some subject test scores and some DE (dual enrollment) from the community college (CC) on their applications.

[mumto2]

One college on our possible colleges list I believe requires 4 SAT2 tests for home schoolers. Another specifically requires one in Math (level 1 or 2), and for our situation, one in a Foreign Language, plus at least one other of the student's choice, so a minimum of 3 in all. So far of the colleges that seem possible for ds to consider (which keeps changing as he thinks he does or does not want to be far from home and so on) all require at least 2 SAT2 tests. At present, it looks like ds will have a minimum of 4 SAT2 tests to take...and maybe 5 if the exact requirements of some of the colleges for home schoolers end up meaning that some needed for one school do not perfectly overlap with another school.

 

We will look to doing what is required ahead of what is optional. (AP and CLEP being optional). And I only expect him to take AP tests at this point if it looks like there would be a good reason to do so according to the rules for specific places he is applying.

 

Where we are, AP tests present more of a challenge to find locations, possibly deal with accommodations, and so on than SAT2s. I think for my ds a few DE classes which at the moment look like they will be easier to arrange (though still a challenge due to distance) will work out better than AP classes. Possibly a DE in foreign language will change the SAT2 tests needed as per paragraph 1 above.

 

Most AP tests usually involve significant essay answer writing. Most SAT2 tests are multiple choice. There has been one called writing which I do not know how it works, and some of the FL ones have an audio component. And I guess that AP calculus has a lot of writing, but not really essays. So there are exceptions, but in general, the amount of writing is greater for AP tests. So if a child has dysgraphia or that sort of thing, it can make a difference.

 

It looks like taking a lot of these tests will be difficulty for us to arrange just because he is in home school and because we live probably 45 minutes from the nearest school that is a test center for any of these tests, plus having some health and other issues to consider.

 

If you are applying from overseas as the post seemed to imply, I am wondering how you would manage to take AP tests at all? Do they offer them in other countries, or would you spend a few weeks in a US city to do it?

 

I think if you were applying internationally, you would look at the exact requirements for international applicants (and also home schoolers if applicable) for each college you might be considering.

International isn't as hard as I expected. We have been driving about 2 hours to reach our exam center but thanks to these threads I now know some people in the US are driving several miles also. Here is a link https://sat.collegeboard.org/register/test-center-code-search showing the test center locations for the next SAT exam in England. Mainly being offered at private schools. Fewer locations for the AP exams but doable. Dd sat for AB Calc this year as home ed. They have offered to administer BC for her next year if she wishes.

[Pen]

International isn't as hard as I expected. We have been driving about 2 hours to reach our exam center but thanks to these threads I now know some people in the US are driving several miles also. Here is a link https://sat.collegeboard.org/register/test-center-code-search showing the test center locations for the next SAT exam in England. Mainly being offered at private schools. Fewer locations for the AP exams but doable. Dd sat for AB Calc this year as home ed. They have offered to administer BC for her next year if she wishes.

 

 

That's interesting.

 

Why are you thinking toward US colleges rather than ones in England?  I think if I were in England I'd want to have my child do college/uni there. Is the grass greener on the other side of the fence whichever way one looks at it?

 

From my perspective, England has at least equal educational opportunities and possibly less expensive ones.

[mumto2]

That's interesting.

 

Why are you thinking toward US colleges rather than ones in England? I think if I were in England I'd want to have my child do college/uni there. Is the grass greener on the other side of the fence whichever way one looks at it?

 

From my perspective, England has at least equal educational opportunities and possibly less expensive ones.

They are going in the UK. The Testing has simply been easier to access for my family and perfectly acceptable for admission. The Uni they both want can be applied to using American style testing and that is the path we have chosen. The exams can be turned into the point systen etc without problems if they change their minds and want a Uni that is on points. This is easier from my perspective then portfolios or several months of weekly classes.

[Joan in GE]

One thing no one mentioned is that it seems easier to find online courses which are geared to preparing a student for the AP's...perhaps thats true for SAT II's and I just don't know?

 

If we had to do it over again and were preparing for US uni's, I'd still have dc doing AP's - perhaps a mix if near a DE possibility...the level of study was higher than what I or others (as in other teachers for their AP's) did otherwise - and preparing for an exam motivated them more than I could.

 

Now that it's 'over' - they see how they can approach and master material - with all the different AP courses, they got to see different teacher's approaches, etc...I think they're great for those of us who don't have access to DE courses or need AP's for uni entry (overseas).

[swimmermom3]

One thing no one mentioned is that it seems easier to find online courses which are geared to preparing a student for the AP's...perhaps thats true for SAT II's and I just don't know?

 

If we had to do it over again and were preparing for US uni's, I'd still have dc doing AP's - perhaps a mix if near a DE possibility...the level of study was higher than what I or others (as in other teachers for their AP's) did otherwise - and preparing for an exam motivated them more than I could.

 

Now that it's 'over' - they see how they can approach and master material - with all the different AP courses, they got to see different teacher's approaches, etc...I think they're great for those of us who don't have access to DE courses or need AP's for uni entry (overseas).

 

For us, because ds has a tight schedule with academics, swimming, and sailing, DE classes are more difficult to access due to time constraints and they are the most expensive option. Our primary reason for taking AP classes is for the challenge. Our experience so far has been similar to the bold part in Joan's post.

 

SAT Subject tests are just that - a test. For AP, my son has actual classes whether live, online, or from home, and they have all offered excellent academic experiences. SAT 2 gives you a result; AP gives you a process and a result.

 

[regentrude]

SAT Subject tests are just that - a test. For AP, my son has actual classes whether live, online, or from home, and they have all offered excellent academic experiences. SAT 2 gives you a result; AP gives you a process and a result.

 

 

I do not understand this. There has to be academic coursework preceding the SAT subject test, too, so there will be some kind of class - live, online, at home - that gives an academic experience.

Which kind of test the student chooses to take after that coursework does not affect the "process". Whether that process/experience is excellent or nor depends on the way the class is done, not on which test give the result.

[Joan in GE]

Even if a student is taking another course and ends up taking the SAT II's on the side, it is not like the course was specifically planned for that test. I think that's what she meant by the process. 

 

And what other online courses (besides MOOC's - but they don't have the same accountability) have a higher level of expectations? My impression is that you have lots of online courses but without some external 'measure' - how do you know what you are paying for? It's far too easy to give A's and B's for shoddy work....Just preparing for the AP's requires more work than most of the SAT's (except some parts of SAT II German in our experience).

 

And then the AP's have greater diversity of questions - which require written work in addition to MC's rather than just MC's. I see that as a big plus in itself - any student can guess on MC's - but writing out FRQ's and DBQ's etc is another ballgame.

 

SAT II's are just an hour long - nothing like the exams that high school students take over here that can last 3 hours.

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Would I be correct to say that SAT II tend to be more important in the admissions process, since doing the SAT II is suggested even if doing AP? That is the AP may not be factored into the admissions process in the same way without the accompanying SAT II scores?

 

 

DE is unlikely to be an option for us, but I might need to place directly into sophomore if we opt for US (restrictions on financing), how likely are the AP to be helpful in this respect?  I realise that that this is likely to be school specific, but would appreciate any input on a general level. (Luckily still a few years away still, even for the eldest). 

SAT II's and APs are two different things.  SAT IIs are to show high school mastery.  These may be required at some colleges to validate sufficient understanding of high school work.  Like an A in Algebra 2 is really an A because they proved it by getting a good score on the SAT II test.  For certain colleges, they are a box to check, not a way to show that you are a superior student.

 

APs, however, are a test of college level mastery.   They may not check boxes on the application like a SAT II, but do make the application stronger.  For some colleges, you get college credit for a good AP score.  Or you may test out of certain introductory classes.  SAT IIs do not generally do this.  For example, a 4 or 5 on AP US History might get credit for two college level US history classes (because they are typically broken up into two classes ... up to the Civil War, and Reconstruction through modern times.) 

[regentrude]

Even if a student is taking another course and ends up taking the SAT II's on the side, it is not like the course was specifically planned for that test. I think that's what she meant by the process. 

 

And what other online courses (besides MOOC's) have a higher level of expectations? My impression is that you have lots of online courses but without some external 'measure' - how do you know what you are paying for? It's far too easy to give A's and B's for shoddy work....Just preparing for the AP's requires more work than most of the SAT's (except some parts of SAT II German in our experience).

 

And then the AP's have greater diversity of questions - which require written work in addition to MC's rather than just MC's. I see that as a big plus in itself - any student can guess on MC's - but writing out FRQ's and DBQ's etc is another ballgame.

 

SAT II's are just an hour long - nothing like the exams that high school students take over here that can last 3 hours.

 

I guess I am approaching this completely different. My kids take a course (outsourced or at home) for subject mastery. I fail to see how a course that specifically teaches to the test is superior to one that does not - unless one is solely interested in the test score, as opposed to the learning.

 

The process that preceded my DD's math SAT2 was several years math education with AoPS and a few weeks designated test prep with a test prep book. The process that preceded her Physics SAT2 involved two rigorous college classes. Her literature score is the result of several years literature study.

The test scores are a nice by product - but they don't measure the quality of the coursework that was done. I fail to see how selecting the SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work, since I don't "teach to the test".

 

ETA:

 

And what other online courses (besides MOOC's) have a higher level of expectations? My impression is that you have lots of online courses but without some external 'measure' - how do you know what you are paying for? It's far too easy to give A's and B's for shoddy work...

 

Well, it's moot since I don't pay for online courses - but "how do you know" would apply equally to home grown courses. I think a home educator may be quite capable of discerning whether an outsourced course achieves the desired learning or not without resorting to standardized test scores. And "get what you pay for"..by the time the AP scores are in, the course is over and you have paid no matter what. And even a stellar course may not result in a stellar test score.

 

 

 

[chiguirre]

The test scores are a nice by product - but they don't measure the quality of the coursework that was done. I fail to see how selecting the SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work, since I don't "teach to the test".

It's really awesome that you can plan and execute classes so well. But you have to remember that you have years of experience teaching university. Most of us are winging it and have no experience judging how much to cover, how to prioritize, how to write a good exam or even how to grade a paper. For us, having a clear standard of what constitutes a rigorous course and an objective standard of achievement is indispensable. The most accessible standard for an American are the AP courses. They aren't perfect, but they're what's available.

[regentrude]

It's really awesome that you can plan and execute classes so well. But you have to remember that you have years of experience teaching university. Most of us are winging it and have no experience judging how much to cover, how to prioritize, how to write a good exam or even how to grade a paper. For us, having a clear standard of what constitutes a rigorous course and an objective standard of achievement is indispensable. The most accessible standard for an American are the AP courses. They aren't perfect, but they're what's available.

 

But the AP score arrives weeks after the entire course is completed. I fail to see how an exam that gives results after everything is over can serve a parent as an indicator on "whether they get what they pay" for if they are unable to discern that otherwise - which was what a pp claimed.  What if the student failed to deliver? And what good is it to have that info after the fact anyway?

 

Btw, there are excellent college courses out there, with excellent teachers which 20% of students flunk. What does that end result say about the course itself?

 

That was my point. How does an exam after the fact tell you anything useful you might need to know to enhance student learning?

[swimmermom3]

I do not understand this. There has to be academic coursework preceding the SAT subject test, too, so there will be some kind of class - live, online, at home - that gives an academic experience.

Which kind of test the student chooses to take after that coursework does not affect the "process". Whether that process/experience is excellent or nor depends on the way the class is done, not on which test give the result.

 

You are absolutely right. Thankfully, Joan explained where I was coming from in her post below. :tongue_smilie: I was thinking in terms of "process" because if I develop my own AP class, I have certain guidelines and targets that I need to meet in order to prepare my student for the exam. You take the Subject test at the point the student has acquired enough information. For some tests that may be after two to three classes.

 

While we have had good experiences with AP classes and exams, I have been fairly vocal on here with regards to my personal views on some of the AP tests. I am not advocating one over the other and they both have their uses. If one is into minimal testing, then definitely take the SAT subject tests and skip APs.

 

Even if a student is taking another course and ends up taking the SAT II's on the side, it is not like the course was specifically planned for that test. I think that's what she meant by the process. 

 

And what other online courses (besides MOOC's - but they don't have the same accountability) have a higher level of expectations? My impression is that you have lots of online courses but without some external 'measure' - how do you know what you are paying for? It's far too easy to give A's and B's for shoddy work....Just preparing for the AP's requires more work than most of the SAT's (except some parts of SAT II German in our experience).

 

And then the AP's have greater diversity of questions - which require written work in addition to MC's rather than just MC's. I see that as a big plus in itself - any student can guess on MC's - but writing out FRQ's and DBQ's etc is another ballgame.

 

SAT II's are just an hour long - nothing like the exams that high school students take over here that can last 3 hours.

[swimmermom3]

I guess I am approaching this completely different. My kids take a course (outsourced or at home) for subject mastery. I fail to see how a course that specifically teaches to the test is superior to one that does not - unless one is solely interested in the test score, as opposed to the learning.

 

The process that preceded my DD's math SAT2 was several years math education with AoPS and a few weeks designated test prep with a test prep book. The process that preceded her Physics SAT2 involved two rigorous college classes. Her literature score is the result of several years literature study.

The test scores are a nice by product - but they don't measure the quality of the coursework that was done. I fail to see how selecting the SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work, since I don't "teach to the test".

 

ETA:

 

 

Well, it's moot since I don't pay for online courses - but "how do you know" would apply equally to home grown courses. I think a home educator may be quite capable of discerning whether an outsourced course achieves the desired learning or not without resorting to standardized test scores. And "get what you pay for"..by the time the AP scores are in, the course is over and you have paid no matter what. And even a stellar course may not result in a stellar test score.

 

Ack! No! I don't think anyone was saying that selecting SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work. They are two different experiences  and my choice of the words "process" and "result" to represent it was rather sloppy on my part when I look at it from the perspective you described.

 

As far as "teaching to the test goes" with AP, with the classes my son has taken so far, I can't say that I felt that a significant amount of time was devoted to test prep, but I do think that can depend on the type of class.

 

I believe I am going to get a chance to make the comparison because ds liked AP Biology enough to request that we explore the next logical step in continuing on in biology. My only option to honor his request is a DE class at the university in town. I may have to come back here and eat my words. :D It wouldn't be the first time.

 

 

[regentrude]

Ack! No! I don't think anyone was saying that selecting SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work. They are two different experiences  and my choice of the words "process" and "result" to represent it was rather sloppy on my part when I look at it from the perspective you described.

 

My post you quoted was in response to Joan's post who had stated

 

Even if a student is taking another course and ends up taking the SAT II's on the side, it is not like the course was specifically planned for that test. I think that's what she meant by the process. 

 

 My impression is that you have lots of online courses but without some external 'measure' - how do you know what you are paying for? It's far too easy to give A's and B's for shoddy work....Just preparing for the AP's requires more work than most of the SAT's .

 

So maybe I misunderstood what she meant by this. To me, this sounded as if a course specifically planned for the test was in some way superior to a course that wasn't, and this opinion I do not share.

[chiguirre]

But the AP score arrives weeks after the entire course is completed. I fail to see how an exam that gives results after everything is over can serve a parent as an indicator on "whether they get what they pay" for if they are unable to discern that otherwise - which was what a pp claimed.  What if the student failed to deliver? And what good is it to have that info after the fact anyway?

 

Btw, there are excellent college courses out there, with excellent teachers which 20% of students flunk. What does that end result say about the course itself?

 

That was my point. How does an exam after the fact tell you anything useful you might need to know to enhance student learning?

You can check the pass rates for previous years. My local public high school's are truly sad. Many of the online providers are quite high. It's not a guarantee, but it's better than flying blind.

 

When you are doing a class by yourself, the AP syllabi and test prep books are a great resource for planning and executing a quality course. Without them homeschooling high school would be even harder.

[Brad S]

SAT II's and APs are two different things.  SAT IIs are to show high school mastery.  These may be required at some colleges to validate sufficient understanding of high school work.  Like an A in Algebra 2 is really an A because they proved it by getting a good score on the SAT II test.  For certain colleges, they are a box to check, not a way to show that you are a superior student.

 

APs, however, are a test of college level mastery.   They may not check boxes on the application like a SAT II, but do make the application stronger.  For some colleges, you get college credit for a good AP score.  Or you may test out of certain introductory classes.  SAT IIs do not generally do this.

 

What I've heard is exactly what this quoted post says: "SAT IIs are to show high school mastery ... APs, however, are a test of college level mastery" and matches what I've heard from college admissions counselors, to the extent that they've even talked about SAT II tests.  My impression has been that among selective colleges AP tests are more important; they want to feel comfortable that the student is capable of college-level work as a basis for serious consideration.  SAT II results require more of an extrapolation to a step up in level; in conjunction with other evidence, that's possible, but it's another step up.  (Other colleges may be different, such as where their applicant pool might not have a lot of applicants who've had access to AP classes.) 

 

Here's a web page I found listing a "database of the SAT Subject Test Requirement for admission to some of top national universities and liberal arts colleges in America."  This list clearly has some issues, but the web links to universities seem to work for the cases I checked.  The first university where it said SAT IIs were required under some circumstances, Yale, actually said "SAT Subject Tests are recommended but not required. Applicants who do not take SAT Subject Tests will not be disadvantaged in the application process." and  "AP examination scores are recommended but not required."

 

The second university in "database" where it said SAT IIs were required, Harvard, actually says they're recommended and gives some background on when you might want to include them in your application.  One part, which matches what I've heard from other colleges, is: "You should ask yourself whether other academic credentials including, but not limited to AP results, IB marks, A Levels grades, etc., adequately represent your suitability for studying at Harvard. If there is any doubt, you should take two Subject Tests."  On another page, the Harvard website seems to emphasize SAT IIs equally to APs or a bit more than APs.  Some other university pages or representatives seemed to lean the other way.  The bottom line is "ask the college."

[Joan in GE]

They are going in the UK. The Testing has simply been easier to access for my family and perfectly acceptable for admission. The Uni they both want can be applied to using American style testing and that is the path we have chosen. The exams can be turned into the point systen etc without problems if they change their minds and want a Uni that is on points. This is easier from my perspective then portfolios or several months of weekly classes.

 

Yes, I know another HE family who will apply in the UK but using US exam results. They find it easier to have higher level online courses for the US exams (they're using Stanford Online).

 

I've heard there aren't as many uni bound HE students in the UK, so I think there are fewer options for test prep - though it is all still better than some other European countries' test/prep.

[Joan in GE]

 

If you are applying from overseas as the post seemed to imply, I am wondering how you would manage to take AP tests at all?  Do they offer them in other countries, or would you spend a few weeks in a US city to do it?  

 

 

Just putting this out there for other internationals as one here got very poor info about AP test centers and ended up choosing a whole different route (A-levels).

 

There are "lots" of AP test centers around the world.

 

Unhappily, the AP info email resource doesn't always give you the most up to date info. But you can go onto

 

AP Course Ledger and search by country.

 

There you should realize that the info still might not be correct. The deadline for AP course renewal is what - January of the year of the exam? So they might not actually be teaching the course and therefore not giving the exam.

 

*You should also know that in some cases, it is possible to get the CB to give the tests to another testing center that is not listed on the ledger for those who don't have access. I'm not sure of the process and should have saved the link, but it's worth researching if you're stuck.

 

Also, some schools are willing to order AP exams for courses that they are not teaching. You don't have to have authorization for a course to give the exam.

[Joan in GE]

I guess I am approaching this completely different. My kids take a course (outsourced or at home) for subject mastery. I fail to see how a course that specifically teaches to the test is superior to one that does not - unless one is solely interested in the test score, as opposed to the learning.

 

The test scores are a nice by product - but they don't measure the quality of the coursework that was done. I fail to see how selecting the SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work, since I don't "teach to the test".

It seems like we need a few definitions and clarifications:

 

Mastery - by whose definition? 

 

What is involved in mastery seems to depend on the prof, the country, the school, etc. Dd just took a test given for the basic level of the CH matu which had material not covered in the AP.  But then again, there was lots and lots of material she covered for the AP that wasn't tested at all.

 

Teaching to the test - dear regentrude, you are telling me that you don't "teach to the test"? While you aren't teaching to the AP, I'm pretty sure that you are teaching to some test....

 

You wouldn't just go online and take some other professors exams for physics and give them to your students without looking at them would you? (because if you look at them and see that the material is the same, it is the equivalent of you teaching to the test, it is just a test manufactured by someone else)

 

While in your classes you might add in some extra material for fun, interest, or educational value, you basically would not just teach anything and then test them using some old test you found by some other teacher.

 

The question really is - which test are you teaching to?

 

You have SAT II's, AP's, and then tests for courses online or courses that you prepare yourself (DE is not in the question here)...

 

What I was trying to say about coursework preparing for an exam is that I can cover various chapters in a biology book based on interest, experience, what I see as needed for basic information about a subject, mastery, etc. - but its somewhat subjective and "mastery" of the material is so 'subjective' as well because it all depends on how you test "mastery".

 

For me, with such limited subject matter experience, I'd rather be preparing my students for tests which:

 

a. are recognized by more people rather than fewer people.

 

And while I can find lots of tests that others who have a degree in the subject have prepared for a subject, I don't have any degrees after my name besides a BS, and it would take a detailed course description which itemized where I'd found the tests to give any weight to their value. 

 

b. have standardized testing conditions (this is not the OP's question but just adding it for info)

 

 - how easy it is to retake tests, to cheat and prepare for a test by reviewing it in advance. With standardized tests, given under strict testing circumstances, there is much less room for cheating. 

 

So "superiority" for me is where the course is well-developed (which needs criteria in and of itself) and the test is related to material taught. And the AP courses given by well-known providers are 'superior' to what I myself would be able to do for the subjects that we used outside providers for.

 

E.g.- giving an old AP calc exam can cause some problems as over the years, the topics have changed.

 

BTW - even if the final AP exam results don't come in for a long time after the taking of the exam, there are tests given by the teachers along the way, old practice AP's, combinations of similar questions for material already covered, etc...It is not just the "final" test grade but the "whole process" of preparation with clear objectives.

 

There are so many factors in this whole discussion that we're not addressing very clearly...

[mumto2]

Yes, I know another HE family who will apply in the UK but using US exam results. They find it easier to have higher level online courses for the US exams (they're using Stanford Online).

 

I've heard there aren't as many uni bound HE students in the UK, so I think there are fewer options for test prep - though it is all still better than some other European countries' test/prep.

Until the last couple of years most uni bound HE students that I know (or of) did their basic GCSE for maths and english through some method of community type education and went on to College (high school) for their A levels. So there are many who went on just not many who went on directly, if that makes sense.

 

Quite a bit of funding seems to have been made available recently that the 15 and 16 year olds in our larger home ed group are taking advantage of. Some for certificate courses; plumbing, cooking, cosmetology.

 

There are some exams that don't require portfolios. I know some home ed families who are just doing those. For example, some of our big name University's are apparently perfectly satisfied with an A or A* in Latin as opposed to English (pretty sure that is a no portfolio for Latin and I know of two admissions with this). I know of several recent success stories but these involve tons of work finding testing locations and long drives. That being said I have to say most of my home ed friends kids (or at least one of their kids) are Uni bound and several will go the whole way at home.

[Joan in GE]

Interesting!

 

There are some exams that don't require portfolios. 

 

 

But what are portfolios? Work done for the class that is graded officially and counted as part of the grade?

 

I've heard of people doing the International versions of the GCSE's or A-levels due to no lab requirements for science for example (if my info is correct :-))

[Joan in GE]

A. I fail to see how selecting the SAT2 over AP in any way lowers the educational expectation and the level of academic work

 

B. Well, it's moot since I don't pay for online courses - but "how do you know" would apply equally to home grown courses. I think a home educator may be quite capable of discerning whether an outsourced course achieves the desired learning or not without resorting to standardized test scores. And "get what you pay for"..by the time the AP scores are in, the course is over and you have paid no matter what. And even a stellar course may not result in a stellar test score.

 

There are so many aspects of your comments that we could discuss....

 

A. But we agree that SAT 2 has a lower level of required knowledge than AP's right? so I don't understand your comment.

 

ETA- I'll discuss this more below as I remember now your original point and this is a bit out of context...

 

B. the "how do you know" was in relation to choosing a trusted provider that is preparing students for an exam that is measured externally, rather than choosing a provider whose only measure of work my student has done for them is their own assessment.

 

Eg. dc take a course with someone who gives them an A. If I have zero knowledge of the material, how do I know the A is worth anything and that they weren't actually doing D work? But if they take the AP and get a good grade in addition to the A, then the A is worth more - I mean is more valid - right? It's been validated by an external source. If they get an A from the teacher and a 2 on the exam, then I'd have some doubts about the teacher....But it would take others' experiences to show whether or not it was just my dc.

 

I've seen lots of "private school" providers whose grades aren't worth much.

 

I agree that for my personal experience, I've already paid for the course, etc. But the school builds a reputation over time and as we all gain experience and grade the providers, those following will have a better idea of what they are paying for. (The value of the Hive!)

 

Now, whether or not the student is 'ready' to take the AP course is another matter. As you mentioned, 20% could fail and it might not be a problem of the teacher. But again, it might be. Or it might be that there has to be a curve so that some fail. Such is the case with public school over here. They curve the standardized test so that only a few get the top grades. (I'm not really sure about the failing ones - what their actual grades were)

[mumto2]

 

 

But what are portfolios? Work done for the class that is graded officially and counted as part of the grade?

 

I've heard of people doing the International versions of the GCSE's or A-levels due to no lab requirements for science for example (if my info is correct :-))

In and out with dc's activities but yes portfolios are pretty much other work. For instance the French GCSE has several in class components yet the level isn't honestly that high. This is observation with dd's friends who have done an acceptable job. One friend with A level French plans was shocked that dd was taking an exam all in French. No English. Which is what the French Subject exam was.

 

FYI, the IGCSE track grades on a much higher level than the gcse. Dd's friend had a C on the IGCSE maths, she would have had a very solid A on the gcse. So not equal.

[Joan in GE]

 

Would I be correct to say that SAT II tend to be more important in the admissions process, since doing the SAT II is suggested even if doing AP? That is the AP may not be factored into the admissions process in the same way without the accompanying SAT II scores?

 

 

DE is unlikely to be an option for us, but I might need to place directly into sophomore if we opt for US (restrictions on financing), how likely are the AP to be helpful in this respect?  I realise that that this is likely to be school specific, but would appreciate any input on a general level. (Luckily still a few years away still, even for the eldest). 

 

 

If your student(s) likes challenges, I would opt for both and as many as possible in areas where the student doesn't have a personal project approach or trajectory not measurable with these exams.

 

My (and ds3's) only regret is not realizing earlier for ds3 what benefits he could get from the AP exams. They grow up so fast that when they're in 8th grade, we can't really imagine what they'll be capable of doing even just 2 years later. And then if they like rising to challenges, the AP's give a framework.

 

To summarize and break down possible reasons for taking either test as well as other considerations:

 

1. Meeting admissions requirements for a university.

 

a. in the US

 

b. in other parts of the world (just presuming this possibility from the words "opt for US")

 

2. Getting university credit 

 

a. to shorten total stay by possibly having enough credits to have one semester less

 

b. to free up time/credits to take other courses, do double major, etc.

 

3. Challenging the student academically at home when DE is not an option.

 

a. which level of study is more challenging?

 

b. which test is more challenging? 

 

4. Preparing for the exams.

 

a. objectives

 

b. materials available to prepare

 

c. providers if you don't want to do it yourself

 

5. Price and timing of exams.

 

6. Other factors:

a. you have a degree in the subject or a related subject and can fully prepare a course that a university would recognize due to your own credentials.

b. you don't have a degree in the subject but are good at researching, have the time to research, and can get a tutor for questions you're unable to answer if you can't find answers online

c. you outsource

 

_______________________________________________________

 

1. a. depends on the university - see other posts above and in other threads on the topic

 

1. b. - in the UK - both AP & SAT - search Laura Corin and others' posts about it

- in DE - both, but need more - probably not possible with just HE search Matryoshka's posts

- in CH - AP's. SAT II's not on radar. Good to have regular SAT just in case.

- other countries - no personal knowledge, maybe others know?

 

2. Schools tend to give credit for AP's more often than SAT II's but I did start a thread about College credit for SAT II's - sometimes it's possible - I doubt you'd be able to get enough to start as a sophomore. But you could perhaps do some of both depending on the school.

 

3. a. clearly the material is more challenging for AP's. And even if sometimes students get a worse grade on the SAT (this happened for dd with German), it's because that material wasn't covered but not because overall there is more material covered on the SAT II. 

 

Since the width and breadth of AP's are more challenging, the coursework to prepare for them is also more interesting for students who want to learn more.

 

Yes, there can be courses that are better overall - but for the common man these aren't a bad way to go...and even if the IB was available for HE, I'd still chose the AP's due to flexibility in testing years...

 

b. clearly the AP exam is more difficult in terms of structure, amount of material tested. If they're going into higher education that is not just testing using MC questions - then they'll have more experience by practicing for the DBQ's, FRQ's, etc. Of course grading is exam specific, but you can get the scoring guidelines for old FRQ's and you can even see samples of how they have graded them.

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/exam/exam_information/1997.html

 

4. This is a big one!

Someone just asked me for book recommendations for one of the SAT II tests - because there are no recent books published!

- because there is no site where you can get itemized content for what is on the test. Yes, you can go on the CB website and find info like this below - but it's so general. 

 

a. objectives:

eg from the CB website: 

https://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-2

How the topics will be tested is wide open. And there is not "free" info like lots of practice tests, online resources listed by the CB such as you can find for AP's

 

b. materials 

1) by CB

2) online providers

3) books

 

For AP's you can find TONS of info and course development aids. 

 

You can't find free syllabi preparing students for the SAT II exams like you can for AP's.

 

So overall, you are quite dependent upon the SAT II prep books and if there isn't one for the subject you want tested, then you are in a pickle.

 

c. If you don't want to prepare the student for the test yourself, you'll be hard pressed to find online courses which will do that specifically for the SAT II's...There are AP courses where you don't have make any decisions - as the teacher does all the work for you about book selection, etc. :-)

 

5. SAT II exams are cheaper than AP's and it's easier to find testing centers. As regentrude mentioned, you can take SAT II's throughout the year (except some language ones) - so easier to fit in...Then as you may have seen on a recent thread - taking two AP's in one day is possible but more difficult for some...don't know if dd would have been able.

 

6. a. even if we have a degree in one or two subjects, other subjects are lacking

b. can make up for lacks above - there is lots of info for AP exam prep 

c. great option if you have the $$$ for AP courses though people are exploring some free options.

[regentrude]

A. But we agree that SAT 2 has a lower level of required knowledge than AP's right? so I don't understand your comment.

 

The test tests a lower level of material, this is correct. But unless one chooses to tailor the course precisely to the test and only teach what is test, and at that level, what test is given does not allow a conclusion about the "process", i.e. the learning that took place to get there.

 

 

B. the "how do you know" was in relation to choosing a trusted provider that is preparing students for an exam that is measured externally, rather than choosing a provider whose only measure of work my student has done for them is their own assessment.

 

Eg. dc take a course with someone who gives them an A. If I have zero knowledge of the material, how do I know the A is worth anything and that they weren't actually doing D work? But if they take the AP and get a good grade in addition to the A, then the A is worth more - I mean is more valid - right? It's been validated by an external source. If they get an A from the teacher and a 2 on the exam, then I'd have some doubts about the teacher....But it would take others' experiences to show whether or not it was just my dc.

 

I see what you mean. But then, how would one ever send kids to college and trust that they learn? There are no standardized tests at college and every college instructor measures work his own way, without external oversight.

 

 

 

Teaching to the test - dear regentrude, you are telling me that you don't "teach to the test"? While you aren't teaching to the AP, I'm pretty sure that you are teaching to some test....

You wouldn't just go online and take some other professors exams for physics and give them to your students without looking at them would you? (because if you look at them and see that the material is the same, it is the equivalent of you teaching to the test, it is just a test manufactured by someone else)

 

No. I don't teach to the test, I test what I teach. Which I consider an important difference, not just a semantic one.

 

I guess we are not understanding each other. I want to make clear that I definitely see that there is value in AP courses and tests and don't mean to question that at all! I just took issue with considering a class that is specifically designed to match a certain test as superior to one that is not.

[Joan in GE]

In and out with dc's activities but yes portfolios are pretty much other work. For instance the French GCSE has several in class components yet the level isn't honestly that high. This is observation with dd's friends who have done an acceptable job. One friend with A level French plans was shocked that dd was taking an exam all in French. No English. Which is what the French Subject exam was.

 

FYI, the IGCSE track grades on a much higher level than the gcse. Dd's friend had a C on the IGCSE maths, she would have had a very solid A on the gcse. So not equal.

 

That's really important to know!

 

Is it possible to go back to the UK to take the GCSE's instead of doing the IGCSE's or are they linked to a school?

 

And I didn't know the language level was so low. No wonder UK universities look favorably on the SAT II's...

[G5052]

 

4. This is a big one!

Someone just asked me for book recommendations for one of the SAT II tests - because there are no recent books published!

- because there is no site where you can get itemized content for what is on the test. Yes, you can go on the CB website and find info like this below - but it's so general. 

 

a. objectives:

eg from the CB website: 

https://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-2

How the topics will be tested is wide open. And there is not "free" info like lots of practice tests, online resources listed by the CB such as you can find for AP's

 

b. materials 

1) by CB

2) online providers

3) books

 

For AP's you can find TONS of info and course development aids. 

 

You can't find free syllabi preparing students for the SAT II exams like you can for AP's.

 

So overall, you are quite dependent upon the SAT II prep books and if there isn't one for the subject you want tested, then you are in a pickle.

 

c. If you don't want to prepare the student for the test yourself, you'll be hard pressed to find online courses which will do that specifically for the SAT II's...There are AP courses where you don't have make any decisions - as the teacher does all the work for you about book selection, etc. :-)

 

5. SAT II exams are cheaper than AP's and it's easier to find testing centers. As regentrude mentioned, you can take SAT II's throughout the year (except some language ones) - so easier to fit in...Then as you may have seen on a recent thread - taking two AP's in one day is possible but more difficult for some...don't know if dd would have been able.

 

6. a. even if we have a degree in one or two subjects, other subjects are lacking

b. can make up for lacks above - there is lots of info for AP exam prep 

c. great option if you have the $$$ for AP courses though people are exploring some free options.

 

 

Yes, we used SAT II Prep books with good results.  Usually they have a placement test that shows you what you need to study.  What we found is that they were mostly ready though, so just a week or so to polish.  In some ways it is like prep for the regular SAT's as they have been. 

 

Very different than the AP's which required much more sustained study and essay practice.

[Joan in GE]

A. The test tests a lower level of material, this is correct. But unless one chooses to tailor the course precisely to the test and only teach what is test, and at that level, what test is given does not allow a conclusion about the "process", i.e. the learning that took place to get there.

 

 

B. I see what you mean. But then, how would one ever send kids to college and trust that they learn? There are no standardized tests at college and every college instructor measures work his own way, without external oversight.

 

 

 

C. No. I don't teach to the test, I test what I teach. Which I consider an important difference, not just a semantic one.

 

D. I guess we are not understanding each other. I want to make clear that I definitely see that there is value in AP courses and tests and don't mean to question that at all! I just took issue with considering a class that is specifically designed to match a certain test as superior to one that is not.

 

A. SM3 (swimmermom3)'s dc and mine had a class with the same instructor - which was really excellent. When she wrote about the "process" - I immediately thought of this course which was more than anything I could have concocted from a book with worksheets pulled from the internet. Of course all AP courses are not equal nor are the subjects able to be handled in the same way...

 

B. But of course there are school ratings and people compare teachers and programs. Agreeing there is not a standardized test, but school districts, Dept of Education, etc around the world put themselves in knots about this type of problem....

 

C. Now of course I'm not you, so I don't know all the ins and outs of your years....But isn't it possible that at some point in your career, you would use the same materials as you used the year before?  So, you would have originally developed the test based on what you taught. But the following year, when you retaught the same material and reused the same exams, you were effectively "teaching to the test", no?

 

D. Of course intrinsically a course designed to match a test is not necessarily superior. But what I see in actuality, in my brief encounters with the 'real world', is that it's completely possible to learn much less when there is not a clear goal. It is completely true that there are brilliant teachers who construct courses that are not tested with a standardized test which are in every way superior to those that are.  But what is accessible to us home educators who are usually overworked, overextended, and underpaid? :-) We have to make do with what we can and very gratefully to Susan Wise Bauer - we have this incredible platform to share information and hopefully make the home education experience better for our dc.....

[regentrude]

C. Now of course I'm not you, so I don't know all the ins and outs of your years....But isn't it possible that at some point in your career, you would use the same materials as you used the year before?  So, you would have originally developed the test based on what you taught. But the following year, when you retaught the same material and reused the same exams, you were effectively "teaching to the test", no?

 

First, I never reuse a complete exam ;-). And no, even if I were, that is not teaching to the test - because the test has been designed to test what I teach, not the other way around. And yes, I do teach the same material each semester because it is a foundational course where the material and concepts have not changed over the past 100 years, and the learning objectives don't change from one year to the next. But any exam I have written  is designed to match what I taught, not the other way around. So, if we make changes one semester (because they change the number of classes, or we have a particularly large or small class), we design the test to test what we taught, not bend what we are teaching to fit the predesigned exam. It is a fundamentally different approach.

 

 

 

D. Of course intrinsically a course designed to match a test is not necessarily superior. But what I see in actuality, in my brief encounters with the 'real world', is that it's completely possible to learn much less when there is not a clear goal. It is completely true that there are brilliant teachers who construct courses that are not tested with a standardized test which are in every way superior to those that are.  But what is accessible to us home educators who are usually overworked, overextended, and underpaid? :-).

 

Oh, absolutely. But, conversely, it is also possible to learn a lot without even having any exams of any kind. The experiences we had with completely student driven learning were fabulous. My DD completely unschooled English for 11th grade and did whatever she wanted. She just took the SAT2 as a by-product (aced it) and proceeded to impress her college instructors in 12th grade with her writing abilities. So, having a test for which to study is by no means necessary to ensure learning. Which becomes very clear when you look at adult self education. I see how much DH and I have learned about some fields, without any structured courses or exams - you don't usually take those as an adult, but that does not mean you don't learn.

 

So, while for some students, the test as a goal may be a great motivator, it is not the only possible one. (Can you tell that I am not particularly fond of tests? ;-)

[JDoe]

Several interesting observations made here. 

 

In my case I am just thinking in terms of the documentation for university applications. I find that the learning process and testing is somewhat different subjects, even if the test may affect the content of the learning in some ways.

 

For Greek for example there is neither AP nor SAT II, so looking at GCSE or maybe National Greek Exam for that one

 

http://www.ocr.org.uk/qualifications/gcse-classical-greek-j291-j091-from-2012/

 

https://www.aclclassics.org/pages/nge-syllabi

[mumto2]

That's really important to know!

 

Is it possible to go back to the UK to take the GCSE's instead of doing the IGCSE's or are they linked to a school?

 

And I didn't know the language level was so low. No wonder UK universities look favorably on the SAT II's...

Before I get in trouble with someone out there my recent attention has been on the French gcse(so the 16 yo exam) because most of dc's friends have taken it and have been very kind about showing me their grades and materials. So in a sense comparing apples to oranges. The gcse definitely asks several questions in English but level not as high. Dd will get A level credit off her FL subject exams.

 

No one has finished the A level and that does appear to require more vocabulary than the SAT II did, same for the German. Also has a large written component. My somewhat cursory glance has pegged things at roughly AS (17 yo, 1 year of study) level but the one hour time limit on the SAT with the number of questions all in French or Germam definitely ups the challenge level imo. To be honest I am just glad that something exists where dd can demonstrate that she does have foreign language ability.

 

GCSE's are more accessible then in the past but not sure if someone not living here could access them unless through a private school setting like the igcse. The HE kids I know are all getting them in some manner through our councils. I haven't tried so really don't know the path. For English and Maths some colleges are starting to run weekly evening courses for HE students.

[Joan in GE]

First, I never reuse a complete exam ;-).

 

a. And no, even if I were, that is not teaching to the test - because the test has been designed to test what I teach, not the other way around. And yes, I do teach the same material each semester because it is a foundational course where the material and concepts have not changed over the past 100 years, and the learning objectives don't change from one year to the next. But any exam I have written  is designed to match what I taught, not the other way around. So, if we make changes one semester (because they change the number of classes, or we have a particularly large or small class), we design the test to test what we taught, not bend what we are teaching to fit the predesigned exam. It is a fundamentally different approach.

 

Oh, absolutely.

 

b. But, conversely, it is also possible to learn a lot without even having any exams of any kind. The experiences we had with completely student driven learning were fabulous. My DD completely unschooled English for 11th grade and did whatever she wanted. She just took the SAT2 as a by-product (aced it) and proceeded to impress her college instructors in 12th grade with her writing abilities. So, having a test for which to study is by no means necessary to ensure learning. Which becomes very clear when you look at adult self education. I see how much DH and I have learned about some fields, without any structured courses or exams - you don't usually take those as an adult, but that does not mean you don't learn.

 

So, while for some students, the test as a goal may be a great motivator, it is not the only possible one. (Can you tell that I am not particularly fond of tests? ;-)

 

Hmmm...first - I'm glad to hear that you are so active as a professor :-)

 

a. Second - I'm wondering more about the phrase "teaching to the test"....

 

Of course there's the obvious 'faux pas' of having a test in hand and preparing practice questions that are the same or only minorly different.

 

But then there is having a certain body of knowledge that is supposed to be taught, teaching towards that body of knowledge, and then testing accordingly. So then of course if you never got around to teaching "x" you wouldn't test "x". But if your course description says you'll teach "x" and you make sure that you do, and then test it, I don't really see the difference for the AP exams...

 

b. I don't think I was ever trying to discuss student led approaches to learning (not that it's not interesting to hear about your dd)

 

For student led learning - what do you do for subjects where they don't want to learn the subject - where there's no passion?  With the AP courses (carefully chosen so not doing too high a level to young, etc), I found mine getting excited about material that they weren't excited about before.

 

But about not liking tests - you don't like the Abitur? even the older versions (as I have some vague recollection of you not being happy with the new system - but maybe that was university level)?

[regentrude]

a. Second - I'm wondering more about the phrase "teaching to the test"....

 

Of course there's the obvious 'faux pas' of having a test in hand and preparing practice questions that are the same or only minorly different.

 

But then there is having a certain body of knowledge that is supposed to be taught, teaching towards that body of knowledge, and then testing accordingly. So then of course if you never got around to teaching "x" you wouldn't test "x". But if your course description says you'll teach "x" and you make sure that you do, and then test it, I don't really see the difference for the AP exams...

 

Maybe we are solely having a semantics issue. As an instructor, I want to be in control of selecting what I teach: which topics to cover thoroughly, which to touch on, which to omit. "Teaching to the test" would be tailoring my course to a test forced upon me by somebody else, or, as you mentioned, preparing my students precisely for a test I have created on my own - with test performance as the ultimate goal.

Recognizing that there is a canon which should be taught, teaching accordingly, and testing whether this canon has been mastered is not, in my interpretation, "teaching to the test", since the ultimate goal is mastery, not test performance.

 

But about not liking tests - you don't like the Abitur? even the older versions (as I have some vague recollection of you not being happy with the new system - but maybe that was university level)?

 

As a home educator,  I do not like having to tailor my coursework to match up with standardized tests.

That goes for the Abitur as well; I would not enjoy homeschooling if I had to follow a prescribed curriculum in prescribed subjects that prepares my student for a prescribed test. If I had a school that would prep my kids for the Abitur, they would attend that school.

 

As a college instructor, I do like tests as a measure for mastery of the material that I have selected to teach. I would be unhappy if I had to design my course in order to satisfy the requirements of somebody else's exam.

 

ETA: Forgot to address this:

 

 

For student led learning - what do you do for subjects where they don't want to learn the subject - where there's no passion?  With the AP courses (carefully chosen so not doing too high a level to young, etc), I found mine getting excited about material that they weren't excited about before.

 

Certain subjects are mandatory; they have to study them - but I take their preferences into account and try to tailor the specific subject coverage to their interests as much as possible. I am not sure how making them take an AP course specifically would be more likely to get them excited, but maybe that explains why none of mine developed anything but a mere tolerance for chemistry.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Maybe we are solely having a semantics issue.

 

 

I think this might be the case.

[Joan in GE]

Thanks for your answers....

 

about this part

 

 

As a home educator,  I do not like having to tailor my coursework to match up with standardized tests.

That goes for the Abitur as well; I would not enjoy homeschooling if I had to follow a prescribed curriculum in prescribed subjects that prepares my student for a prescribed test. If I had a school that would prep my kids for the Abitur, they would attend that school.

 

I completely remember this same feeling when dc were younger and I was being faced with the local tests - I was balking the whole way. There's something about how that test prep for a test you don't agree with, just saps the energy and joy from the process. But now I'm in full agreement with the tests so even though there's effort, it doesn't feel at all like when they were younger.

 

I don't think I'd enjoy it either if every subject was for a specific test....We have great fun going on rabbit trails in literature and following interests in biology...