S/O "colorblindness" and what we SHOULD teach our kids?

[AndyJoy]

So if teaching children to be "colorblind" (define, please?) is not the best approach to teaching kids about race, what is?  Can you help me lay it all out?  I see a lot of "don't do this" or "don't say nothing" regarding this topic, but not a lot of explicit "do this".  Anyone want to chime in?  (I believe this has been discussed in other threads, but I think it was more on the side of other discussions instead of a dedicated thread.  Please link if you know otherwise....)

 

I have a 5-year-old who I'm trying to educate about the greater world at an age-appropriate pace.  There are topics I've saved for later, as he is blissfully innocent and I don't see a good reason to burden him unnecessarily yet.  Other topics I've brought up intentionally as they were relevant to his experience or something I knew he'd encounter with peers soon.  Other things have been reactionary to unexpected exposure.  In all these difficult topics, I strive to strike the right balance between not giving him too much exposure to the bad ideas that wouldn't occur to him on his own, but also preempting him absorbing those attitudes from elsewhere.  How do you approach this with race?  What do you explicitly say?  When?

 

(When my sister was in high school, she was chatting with some classmates about their history text.  There was a picture of a lovely Korean woman, and my sister commented on how pretty she was.  One boy said "No way, she's ugly."  My sister was baffled, and pressed him. He declared that "No Asian woman could ever be pretty."  She was shocked.  He himself was biracial and she asked him what he would say about someone who declared "No X girls could ever be pretty."  He laughed that off as a stupid impossibility.  Obviously he had internalized some racist attitudes.  I didn't know his parents well enough to know if it came from them or if it was absorbed from his peer group.  He was a very peer-oriented kid.  This is an example of something I'd like to inoculate against.)

 

 

[SKL]

 

(When my sister was in high school, she was chatting with some classmates about their history text.  There was a picture of a lovely Korean woman, and my sister commented on how pretty she was.  One boy said "No way, she's ugly."  My sister was baffled, and pressed him. He declared that "No Asian woman could ever be pretty."  She was shocked.  He himself was biracial and she asked him what he would say about someone who declared "No X girls could ever be pretty."  He laughed that off as a stupid impossibility.  Obviously he had internalized some racist attitudes.  I didn't know his parents well enough to know if it came from them or if it was absorbed from his peer group.  He was a very peer-oriented kid.  This is an example of something I'd like to inoculate against.)

 

My daughter could pass for Chinese.  But it really offends her to be "accused" of having oriental features.  I mean it makes her so upset that I can't even discuss it with her.  I guess you could say she is racist against oriental people based on that.  I have no idea where she got it.  Not from home.  Possibly some kid in her past made fun of her eyes or something.  Or maybe she just simply doesn't like the idea of looking Chinese.  ??  It boggles.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I just keep talking to my kids.  We live in a very diverse area so it does come up quite often.  I can't think of anything else in particular to do.

 

 

[AndyJoy]

My daughter could pass for Chinese. But it really offends her to be "accused" of having oriental features. I mean it makes her so upset that I can't even discuss it with her. I guess you could say she is racist against oriental people based on that. I have no idea where she got it. Not from home. Possibly some kid in her past made fun of her eyes or something. Or maybe she just simply doesn't like the idea of looking Chinese. ?? It boggles.

 

Maybe it could be as simple as her not wanting her differences, whatever they are, pointed out? My sister hated the attention she got for her blond hair and dark brown eyes. And the questions about how she could have such blonde hair when the rest of our immediate family was brown-haired.

[SKL]

When my kids were little, we watched movies that touched on the issue of groups mistreating groups (including racism).  We would see it happening long ago, far away, and feel safe talking about it from that distance.  Later we started reading kids' biographies of famous African Americans such as Harriet Tubman etc.  I talked a lot about "ignorance," more so than "racism."  Around age 7 they were ready for more hard core.  But it is still a delicate balance since they themselves are "minority."

 

They live in a mixed household, attended a mixed school, and generally grow up in a multicultural world, so that helps.

[Tanaqui]

I think the most important thing at this age is to pay attention. I've got two biracial girls, and I promise you, at five years old they noticed that many of their books and library books didn't have characters that looked like them (and I tried, and continue to try very hard to have a diverse book collection), that people on TV and movies usually didn't look like them, that the nicer playground we went to (our neighborhood doesn't really have playgrounds, so we go out of our way to go to a wealthy neighborhood that's overrun with them) had a lot of kids who didn't look much like them. I remember years of the older kiddo being very upset because she didn't have "princess hair" - you know, long, blond, straight.

 

So, something to take away from this. You should definitely diversify your media. It takes a little more effort, but there are books about black kids, Asian kids, Native American kids, Hispanic kids, disabled kids, biracial kids, and so on. And they aren't all "historical", aka "about bad things that happened in the past". (That's another thing - when your only context for "racism" is "bad things that happened in the past", you're implicitly telling your child that racism ended sometime in the 1960s. This is not true. Don't do that. When it comes up, and it will, make sure to point out that this is an ongoing issue.) TV shows and movies and games are a little harder, but also not impossible - and you should bring it up explicitly as well. "Why is nearly everybody on this show white? Is that how your classroom is?" You don't have to say "It's bad that they don't have any speaking parts for PoC" (or "they only have one, and wow, what a stereotype!"), but you should make your kid aware of it, and aware that it's not some shameful thing to talk about race.

 

[Free]

My son is 14, so decidedly older. I don't know how I would approach these topics with a 5 year old. But I do talk to my ds a lot about 1.privilege and how insisting on "equal" treatment can often mean promoting inequality, and 2.implicit misogyny, homophobia and racism - pretty much whenever I come across prejudiced articles, advertising, news reporting, and social media, I discuss those with him.

[AndyJoy]

I just keep talking to my kids. We live in a very diverse area so it does come up quite often. I can't think of anything else in particular to do.

I need more detail :). Talk about what? Point out and discuss incidences of racism? What if you don't often witness them personally in daily life? When do you tell your kid "there are people who judge people based purely on their skin color and not on their actions."

[Aiden]

I'm also curious as to what people recommend we do say to our children.

 

My 4yo so far has shown no indication of noticing skin color. She primarily has been around White people of various nationalities and languages and Khmer (Cambodian) people. In our current location, ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs tend to be very prejudiced against each other, but she hasn't been exposed to that since she is rarely around both at the same time and doesn't speak either of those languages anyway. She has no understanding whatsoever of racism or of the history behind current prejudices. She is, however, going to be forced to learn to view things through the lenses of different cultures just because of our lifestyle as Americans living abroad and moving to a new country every few years. I'm not certain if that will be enough or if I should be a concerted effort somehow to expose her to race relations issues in the US, or what to say to her if we move back there or while we visit. (Of course she'll learn about slavery, civil rights, etc., as we move through our history studies, but that's still a few years down the road, and knowing the historical facts is a necessary but not sufficient condition for existing in a modern multi-racial, multicultural world.)

 

My daughter was too young to be affected by it, but I also have experienced statements that people of certain races couldn't be beautiful, or couldn't be as beautiful as others. An Egyptian taxi driver told me that all White women were more beautiful than any Egyptian woman, because of the lighter skin and hair--I was shocked but regained my senses quickly enough to tell him that he was absolutely wrong, that I had met many beautiful Egyptian women and that Egyptian women were just as beautiful as White women. Then, in Cambodia, no one said anything explicitly, but it was obvious in so many small ways that lighter skin--White skin--was viewed as more beautiful than darker skin. It was much more difficult to argue against the subtle cultural cues than it was the direct statement of the Egyptian taxi driver.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I need more detail :). Talk about what? Point out and discuss incidences of racism? What if you don't often witness them personally in daily life? When do you tell your kid "there are people who judge people based purely on their skin color and not on their actions."

 

Well, an exact example is once one of my kids said he does not like black people.  I asked him why.  He said because a black kid tried to push him under the water at the pool.  So I explained that one person behaving badly doesn't represent an entire race of people. 

 

My kids somehow have gotten the impression that even mentioning that someone has dark skin is offensive.  I said no that is not offensive.  It's a matter of fact.  I said it's offensive to treat someone badly because they have a certain skin color, eye color, etc. 

 

Just stuff here and there like that. 

 

With the older kid we discuss a lot when we study history and current events. 

[SKL]

My daughter was too young to be affected by it, but I also have experienced statements that people of certain races couldn't be beautiful, or couldn't be as beautiful as others. An Egyptian taxi driver told me that all White women were more beautiful than any Egyptian woman, because of the lighter skin and hair--I was shocked but regained my senses quickly enough to tell him that he was absolutely wrong, that I had met many beautiful Egyptian women and that Egyptian women were just as beautiful as White women. Then, in Cambodia, no one said anything explicitly, but it was obvious in so many small ways that lighter skin--White skin--was viewed as more beautiful than darker skin. It was much more difficult to argue against the subtle cultural cues than it was the direct statement of the Egyptian taxi driver.

 

My dark-skinned foreign friend insists that preference for light skin is just a natural fact.

 

I of course don't want my daughters to feel that way, but what if they do?  I'm not sure I can do anything about it.

 

I do of course make sure they see images of nonwhite beauty of all sorts.  But, ultimately I can't control how they see the world from their own eyes.

[Murmer]

Talk about similarities and differences openly and matter of factly...IE yes Angel Girl has brown curly hair, brown eyes, and brown skin (or chocolate skin or black skin depending on age and how your child identifies themselves, I am white (or pink when I am sunburned) my daughter identifies as black but my son still insists on brown), Handsome boy has red short hair, brown eyes and white skin.  Also help them identify their own racial identity...as a society full of white people many small children don't necessarily understand that they are white it just is but talking about your own racial identity lets them know that it ok to talk about race in general and not a bad thing only applied to those that look different.  Have a variety of toys in your home that include black, brown and tan faces (if you are white).  

[Free]

 When do you tell your kid "there are people who judge people based purely on their skin color and not on their actions."

 

There is another thread right now asking whether racism always requires intent. No it does not. So it is not always about people who judge others based on skin color.

 

Racism can look much more innocuous and benign...there has been a lot of discussion on racism in the past few weeks on these boards and a lot of information and links have been shared on how racism actually looks like. If we have to discuss these topics with our kids, then we will first need to educate ourselves on how to recognize incidences of racism, sexism or homophobia.  

[Tanaqui]

I need more detail :). Talk about what? Point out and discuss incidences of racism? What if you don't often witness them personally in daily life? When do you tell your kid "there are people who judge people based purely on their skin color and not on their actions."

 

Okay, let's back up. I don't know what she talks about with her kids. I know that I am very careful not to implicitly or explicitly define "racism" as "people who judge people based on their skin color and not their actions".

 

When people today are affected by racism, it is rarely overt racial bigotry. It's a pattern in society. It's the fact that black people with a clean record are only as likely to get a second interview as whites who have a felony charge. (How can you prove that it was bigotry and not actual lack of qualifications? And if it was bigotry, how can you prove that the HR person realized what they were doing?) It's the fact that orchestras that don't do blind auditions are less likely to hire non-whites and women. It's the fact that whites are less likely to get arrested than blacks for petty crimes like marijuana use - even though whites are more likely to use marijuana where it's not been decriminalized! And once arrested, for whatever crime, whites are less likely to be convicted and, if convicted, receive lighter sentences, even for the same crimes. It's the fact that infant mortality rates for black babies are twice as high as for white babies.

 

None of this has anything to do with "incidences of racism". They have everything to do with structural injustice and biases inherent in our society.

 

If you keep your focus on people being mean, you're going to send your child a false impression that racism is pretty much over, because even those people who are big ol' bigots usually have the sense to keep it to themselves in public. And it's not. This is how you end up with white people who are convinced that white Christian men are the most discriminated against group in the US, don't make me laugh. Better to not bring up race or racism at all than to say things that are not quite true.

 

 

[Farrar]

I have a 5-year-old who I'm trying to educate about the greater world at an age-appropriate pace.  There are topics I've saved for later, as he is blissfully innocent and I don't see a good reason to burden him unnecessarily yet.  Other topics I've brought up intentionally as they were relevant to his experience or something I knew he'd encounter with peers soon.  Other things have been reactionary to unexpected exposure.  In all these difficult topics, I strive to strike the right balance between not giving him too much exposure to the bad ideas that wouldn't occur to him on his own, but also preempting him absorbing those attitudes from elsewhere.  How do you approach this with race?  What do you explicitly say?  When?

 

My understanding is that basically now is the time when they're young. Yes, age appropriate - now is *not* the time to show kids images of people being lynched or coming out of concentration camps - but just like you're saying, don't ignore it, bring it up. Answer questions in a frank, though age appropriate way. Make it clear that people used to think it was acceptable to think one group was better than another. That some people still think it. That the effects of that massive belief are still with us in society even when we try to do better. That life is not fair for everyone. That it's impossible not to notice differences and it's okay, but that we want to make purposeful choices to be friends with people who are different from us because it's important to building our understanding and that sometimes it takes making a choice. It's easy to be friends with someone who is just like us, but it can be just as rewarding to be friends with someone who is different and we can look for places of connection.

 

As a mom to white, middle class kids who are incredibly privileged in a huge number of ways, it's my hope that I can help them be aware of those privileges. And we've been trying to talk about it for awhile.

[AK_Mom4]

Well I have tried very hard to raise my kids to be colorblind. By colorblind, I mean that we teach as an earlier poster said - we judge based in a person's actions, not their skin color. I thinking done a pretty good job in that front.

 

But we don't live in a bubble and I teach that too. We talk about racial, societal, gender and economic inequality and what that looked like in both the past and the present. Honestly, I don't think DD13 really internalized much of that until this year when we did a deep dive into To Kill A Mockingbird. She can't imagine people treating other people that way because she never would. So there is a definite maturity thing at play.

 

I think the best you can do is to make sure that race discussions are not taboo subjects and help kids become aware of what is happening in the world around them.

[SereneHome]

I think it is so hard and tricky to talk to kids about it.  First, what they notice and how they interpret it is such a mystery, at least to me.

 

A few months ago, my DS2 came to me and asked me how come he is the only one in our family with brown eyes. He was really upset by the fact that he didn't look like anyone in our family.  Which is 100% not true, btw, but that's how he sees it.

 

However, that same kid, while describing a girl in his cooking class never mentioned that she was black.  He told us that she was taller than him and had braids and was a girl, but her skin color was not on his radar at all. 

[Tanaqui]

Yes, age appropriate - now is *not* the time to show kids images of people being lynched or coming out of concentration camps - but just like you're saying, don't ignore it, bring it up.

 

Although there are picture books about the Holocaust, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement, slavery, and other unpleasant aspects of history. Some are surprisingly age-appropriate for five year olds (though I strongly suggest that you pre-read any book on this subject prior to handing it to your kid, no matter who recommends it). Others, not so much.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

So here is a question that will possibly ruffle some feathers.  That isn't my intention.  I just really don't know how to deal with it.  A few mentioned judging people on their actions.  What if you encounter a large number of minorities whose actions you don't value in a person?  Where it starts to feel like you are full of crap when you tell your kids that no really there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people?  I know for a fact there are, but I've gotten out more in the world. 

[Stacia]

The Teaching Tolerance website has some good (free) resources.

 

About Us

 

Founded in 1991 by the Southern Poverty Law Center, Teaching Tolerance is dedicated to reducing prejudice, improving intergroup relations and supporting equitable school experiences for our nation's children.

 

We provide free educational materials to teachers and other school practitioners in the U.S. and Canada. Our self-titled magazine is sent to 450,000 educators twice annually, and tens of thousands of educators use our free curricular kits. More than 5,000 schools participate in our annual Mix It Up at Lunch Day program.

 

Our teaching materials have won two Oscars, an Emmy and more than 20 honors from the Association of Educational Publishers, including two Golden Lamp Awards, the industry's highest honor. Scientific surveys demonstrate that our programs help students learn respect for differences and bolster teacher practice.

 

"Tolerance" is surely an imperfect term, yet the English language offers no single word that embraces the broad range of skills we need to live together peacefully.

 

The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. used the Greek term "agape" to describe a universal love that "discovers the neighbor in every man it meets." The various disciplines concerned with human behavior have also offered a variety of adjectives: "pro-social," "democratic," "affiliative."

 

In its Declaration on the Principles of Tolerance, UNESCO offers a definition of tolerance that most closely matches our philosophical use of the word:

"Tolerance is respect, acceptance and appreciation of the rich diversity of our world's cultures, our forms of expression and ways of being human. Tolerance is harmony in difference."

 

We view tolerance as a way of thinking and feeling — but most importantly, of acting — that gives us peace in our individuality, respect for those unlike us, the wisdom to discern humane values and the courage to act upon them.

 

[Free]

A few mentioned judging people on their actions.  What if you encounter a large number of minorities whose actions you don't value in a person?  Where it starts to feel like you are full of crap when you tell your kids that no really there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people?  I know for a fact there are, but I've gotten out more in the world. 

 

I prefer to focus on why or how people got to be a certain way. Is is poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunities, indoctrination? I think it is part of the conversation regarding inequality and privilege and how some people grow in conditions that are not ideal.

[Guest]

This stresses me out to no end. We teach our kids exactly what we believe - that God made everyone intentionally, purposely, and with design. Different ethnicities and skin color are perfect and exactly as He made them, and we have no business calling evil what God called good. That is, everyone is equal in his sight and we are to treat everyone with respect, dignity, and based on the content of their character and not their type of dress, manner of speech, apparent wealth or poverty, or any other silly characteristic that means so very little in the long run.

 

I'd say we teach color blindness, except it's more that we want our children to recognize people are different and appreciate that. Ask questions! Enjoy the variety and differences in people and their lives. Not be shamed by some weird supposed privilege or see everything as inequality and power imbalances. When those things exist, and they do, we want our children to have no part in making them worse and seek to understand and hear the plight of those being treated poorly. But I refuse to teach my kids they need to go around living life hypersensitive to every little detail and feeling burdened to try and solve it all, or as though by existing and happening to be pale they somehow are contributing to these evils.

 

The narrative I often see on here and our own worldview of loving every neighbor, especially those different than ourselves, seem to clash. I can't get behind teaching my kids how wicked and awful they are because they are subconsciously racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, and otherwise oppressing the world just by existing. And that seems to be a not uncommon message sent in a lot of these discussions.

 

I see no benefit in teaching my children those things. I see immense benefit in teaching them to be gentle, compassionate, fair minded, and unafraid of those who are different, and sometimes immensely different, than them. This is a not insignificant part of why we homeschool. I want to be able to teach them about the evils of, say, racism or socialism, without burdening them with feeling like they must bear a legacy of shame.

 

As I said, this really stresses me out, because the message seems to be that if I don't teach them to view the world as a constant set of power imbalances I'm somehow ruining them and making these problems worse. I don't believe that is so. I don't think skin color or ethnicity will ever stop being a major issue so long as we make it an us vs them situation.

 

Maybe it's naive of me, but I hope my children come away with the message growing up that I did - where the color of my friends didn't matter, because I loved them and learned from them and we enjoyed one another's company.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I prefer to focus on why or how people got to be a certain way. Is is poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunities, indoctrination? I think it is part of the conversation regarding inequality and privilege and how some people grow in conditions that are not ideal.

 

Yeah that is basically what I do.  That's a hard thing for a kid to understand.

[Sarah CB]

Okay, let's back up. I don't know what she talks about with her kids. I know that I am very careful not to implicitly or explicitly define "racism" as "people who judge people based on their skin color and not their actions".

 

When people today are affected by racism, it is rarely overt racial bigotry. It's a pattern in society. It's the fact that black people with a clean record are only as likely to get a second interview as whites who have a felony charge. (How can you prove that it was bigotry and not actual lack of qualifications? And if it was bigotry, how can you prove that the HR person realized what they were doing?) It's the fact that orchestras that don't do blind auditions are less likely to hire non-whites and women. It's the fact that whites are less likely to get arrested than blacks for petty crimes like marijuana use - even though whites are more likely to use marijuana where it's not been decriminalized! And once arrested, for whatever crime, whites are less likely to be convicted and, if convicted, receive lighter sentences, even for the same crimes. It's the fact that infant mortality rates for black babies are twice as high as for white babies.

 

None of this has anything to do with "incidences of racism". They have everything to do with structural injustice and biases inherent in our society.

 

If you keep your focus on people being mean, you're going to send your child a false impression that racism is pretty much over, because even those people who are big ol' bigots usually have the sense to keep it to themselves in public. And it's not. This is how you end up with white people who are convinced that white Christian men are the most discriminated against group in the US, don't make me laugh. Better to not bring up race or racism at all than to say things that are not quite true.

 

Do you think this is true everywhere?  We're in a predominantly white province and, from what I've seen so far, it looks like most people who are from places like Nigeria, Guatemala, etc. are very well off.  I think a lot of them come here because of the oil.  

 

What happens when kids grow up in a place where people of colour tend to be in most highly educated and affluent segment of the population?   

 

And with regards to orchestras - really?  Seems to me a lot of orchestras have a lot of Asian musicians. 

[Farrar]

So here is a question that will possibly ruffle some feathers.  That isn't my intention.  I just really don't know how to deal with it.  A few mentioned judging people on their actions.  What if you encounter a large number of minorities whose actions you don't value in a person?  Where it starts to feel like you are full of crap when you tell your kids that no really there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people?  I know for a fact there are, but I've gotten out more in the world. 

 

Like Free said above, it's about being able to think about how someone got there and why those actions are happening. It's fine to say that looting is wrong, that looters should be punished, etc. Or whatever the action is. On the other hand, it's my hope that my kids never say, "Those people should just get a job," or, "I worked hard, I got an education, they should just do that too." Because that's not understanding how much privilege they had to start with. And it's not helpful. It's not going to effect change if you just say, "Control your kids" or "Get a job" or "Have you tried not selling drugs" or whatever.

[Guest]

So here is a question that will possibly ruffle some feathers. That isn't my intention. I just really don't know how to deal with it. A few mentioned judging people on their actions. What if you encounter a large number of minorities whose actions you don't value in a person? Where it starts to feel like you are full of crap when you tell your kids that no really there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people? I know for a fact there are, but I've gotten out more in the world.

That's something I've thought about, too. We deal with that as a worldview issue, whereby their driving worldview is reflected in their actions and is a response to their experiences. We do believe in moral absolutes and objective truth, so that makes it a little easier, but I think that trying to explain the whys and history can give children compassion without making them feel like they're the ones holding the noose or taxing the grains. I think that also involves talking frankly about things that seemed right at the time but, in light of scripture, were truly evil and sinful. And reinforcing that we are never to try and use scripture to justify sin, but take the scriptures as a whole and derive our proper response from what is taught there. Not the other way around.

 

It's not perfect, and obviously wouldn't work for a non-Christian family, but we are really trying our hardest on this. We also try to indicate when a behavior or action is wrong, but not a group or person. Again, existing isn't the problem, but some actions are clearly terrible. So keeping the focus on the context of the situation and the response, helping them see the thought process that leads to it, and then evaluating the moral good or evil from there, is the tactic I try and take. People are not bad, but they often do very awful things because they feel they have no other choice, or even because they enjoy it. These are true things, unfortunately.

[Farrar]

And with regards to orchestras - really?  Seems to me a lot of orchestras have a lot of Asian musicians. 

 

Yes, really. And the reason that the orchestras are more diverse now is because that practice was instituted awhile ago in many places.

[MistyMountain]

I read my kids lots of books and discuss things that are relevant like Martin Luther King jr day. There are picture books for young kids that discuss things how the first colonists acted, civil rights, slavery, the Holocaust, and prejudice etc. I usually talk to them afterwards about it. I also make sure to get a lot of positive multi cultural picture books to balance it out and show the positive aspects of other cultures. My son loves reading about history and enjoys non fiction on those topics too. Reading about ancient and medieval world history also shows how sometimes people do not treat others well. I just discuss what happens and how it is wrong to judge people based on their race but that it has happen. It helps me to use books as a starting point for the topics.

[Tanaqui]

I can't get behind teaching my kids how wicked and awful they are because they are subconsciously racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, and otherwise oppressing the world just by existing.

 

When we say that you have privilege - and Arctic Mama, I know I've said this before on this very forum, so I'm reasonably certain you've seen this before - we're not saying "and so you should be ashamed because you are a bad person". We're saying "you have some good luck that other people don't have, and that's not fair". And yes, it is your responsibility as a member of society to help fix society so it functions better.

 

Nobody, ever, says that all white people are bad because of white privilege, or that all men are bad because of male privilege. Forgive me, but you almost have to be deliberately misunderstanding to come to that conclusion.

 

Do you think this is true everywhere?  We're in a predominantly white province and, from what I've seen so far, it looks like most people who are from places like Nigeria, Guatemala, etc. are very well off.  I think a lot of them come here because of the oil.

 

Surely not. Racism in Japan looks very different from racism in America, which again is different from racism in France. Also, I don't know about where you are, but where I am there's a clear distinction between "African Americans" and "African immigrants". They both get some bad treatment, but there's an entire layer of bigotry associated with one group that the other is largely free from.

 

[Farrar]

Okay, to the books point, #weneeddiversebooks and part of the reason is so that kids of all backgrounds can see themselves in books. However, a big part of it for me, as a parent to white kids, is so they can read about different perspectives and understand other people better. There are lots of options out there (this thread has good picture book lists, for example), but I feel like One Crazy Summer and the rest of that series is one of the best series for this - it shows such a different perspective while also being right for kids and with characters that are sympathetic and relateable.

[Sarah CB]

When we say that you have privilege - and Arctic Mama, I know I've said this before on this very forum, so I'm reasonably certain you've seen this before - we're not saying "and so you should be ashamed because you are a bad person". We're saying "you have some good luck that other people don't have, and that's not fair". And yes, it is your responsibility as a member of society to help fix society so it functions better.

 

Nobody, ever, says that all white people are bad because of white privilege, or that all men are bad because of male privilege. Forgive me, but you almost have to be deliberately misunderstanding to come to that conclusion.

 

But what if you live somewhere where that is not true?  Where it seems like a massive chunk of the people of colour are educated and affluent?  Where the poorest people are white?

[MyThreeSons]

My daughter could pass for Chinese.  But it really offends her to be "accused" of having oriental features.  I mean it makes her so upset that I can't even discuss it with her.  I guess you could say she is racist against oriental people based on that.  I have no idea where she got it.  Not from home.  Possibly some kid in her past made fun of her eyes or something.  Or maybe she just simply doesn't like the idea of looking Chinese.  ??  It boggles.

 

 

I'm sure you don't know this, but many people find "Oriental" offensive in this context. The acceptable term is "Asian".

 

People are Asian. Rugs and food are Oriental. 

[Tanaqui]

But what if you live somewhere where that is not true?  Where it seems like a massive chunk of the people of colour are educated and affluent?  Where the poorest people are white?

 

Then I can see a lot of ways that scenario can go depending on the surrounding culture. I edited my previous post to address this, actually :) Don't know if I did a good job of it.

 

I feel like One Crazy Summer and the rest of that series is one of the best series for this

 

Ooh, have you read the third one yet?

 

[Farrar]

Ooh, have you read the third one yet?

 

Not yet! She's a great speaker if you ever have a chance to see her.

[Guest]

When we say that you have privilege - and Arctic Mama, I know I've said this before on this very forum, so I'm reasonably certain you've seen this before - we're not saying "and so you should be ashamed because you are a bad person". We're saying "you have some good luck that other people don't have, and that's not fair". And yes, it is your responsibility as a member of society to help fix society so it functions better.

 

Nobody, ever, says that all white people are bad because of white privilege, or that all men are bad because of male privilege. Forgive me, but you almost have to be deliberately misunderstanding to come to that conclusion.

 

 

Surely not. Racism in Japan looks very different from racism in America, which again is different from racism in France. Also, I don't know about where you are, but where I am there's a clear distinction between "African Americans" and "African immigrants". They both get some bad treatment, but there's an entire layer of bigotry associated with one group that the other is largely free from.

My children and I cannot fix someone else's feelings. This is a worldview difference. I believe firmly that the schools need to be solid, the justice system as close to fair as we can get it, and the rest is up to the individual. Some have an immensely easier go of life than others, who are stuck with penalties from the get go like drug addicted parents, poverty, health problem, you name it. But I don't think ANYONE can make inequality go away. It's a fact of human existence in broken, fallen bodies and with imperfect motivations and sinful hearts. We cannot control those realities, but we CAN influence how we respond to them, and make sure that each of us, as inidividuals, are doing our best to not worsen the situation. The trouble is that the solutions I'd propose are ones you'd say don't work, and vice versa. Worldview diferences mean that we go about addressing the problems we all see differently. And each thinks the other is wrong.

[MaeFlowers]

Maybe I'm naive, but I tend to believe that actions speak louder than words. Although conversations are important, treating people as though you are colorblind yourself would seem to go the farthest.

[Farrar]

But what if you live somewhere where that is not true?  Where it seems like a massive chunk of the people of colour are educated and affluent?  Where the poorest people are white?

 

Adding to Tanaqui's elaborated post... Even in a place where a large number of minorities have political power and affluence there can be institutional racism and bias. When you look at Baltimore, it's not like Ferguson. The mayor is black, the police chief is black. Many police officers are black. There is a large segment of educated, affluent black people in the city. And yet bias toward the people who live in the neighborhoods where the violence broke out, who dress or speak a certain way, etc. still exists and race isn't the only answer but is part of the equation.

[Tanaqui]

My children and I cannot fix someone else's feelings.

 

I didn't mention feelings. This comment is utterly irrelevant. I have, in previous comments, specifically mentioned issues such as hiring, the so-called justice system, and infant mortality rates. These things most certainly can be improved.

 

But I don't think ANYONE can make inequality go away.

 

Some societies have come a lot closer than others. But if you say "oh, this is just human nature", that's a lovely way to avoid having to try.

 

The trouble is that the solutions I'd propose are ones you'd say don't work, and vice versa. Worldview diferences mean that we go about addressing the problems we all see differently. And each thinks the other is wrong.

 

The trouble is that you seem to think there is no way we can determine what is and is not effective, that all we have to go on are feelings and opinions. This is patently nonsense. You would never accept "worldview differences mean we don't know how to treat disease" or "worldview differences mean we don't know how to build strong bridges". All we have to do is examine how various societies have tackled related issues. Then we can copy the methods that universally work best, and ditch the ones that have been proven to either have no effect or to be detrimental.

 

[Free]

But what if you live somewhere where that is not true?  Where it seems like a massive chunk of the people of colour are educated and affluent?  Where the poorest people are white?

 

Two classics for explaining white privilege:

White Privilege, Explained in One Simple Comic

 

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

[The Girls' Mom]

For our family, I have always taught that people are just people, no matter their skin color or culture.  They are humans just like you and me.  No better, no worse.  And that you cannot judge someone by the actions of another, even if they are from the same culture, ethnic group, etc.  I've taught them to appreciate the beauty of a person from their actions, and that physical beauty comes in all shapes and colors.  I've also taught them that there are some horribly ugly people (in actions) out there from all backgrounds and cultures.  I think I've done pretty well with my girls.  They absolutely see people as equals without regards to their skin or ethnicity, and they get righteously angry when someone tries to act or say otherwise.  

 

I live in a pretty racist area.  It is disgusting, and usually comes from years of distrust and ignorance.  The people going on and on about one race obviously have never bothered to glance at their own lives.  

 

I will be honest.  All of this PC stuff like a kid not even being able to refer to another kid as black, brown, or whatever (but the opposite of referring to someone as white is ok?!) is just making things worse.  So many things are being labeled as racist or bigoted that I feel like I have to walk around and treat everyone like some androgynous, colorless clone of everyone else.  I feel like I can't even complement someone about anything if they aren't a middle aged white southern woman without someone thinking I have some racist agenda behind it.  It makes me so sad, and so frustrated.  

[Amira]

I used to think that aiming for a colorblind society was a good idea.  I still think that teaching children to be colorblind isn't necessarily a horrible idea, and it's obviously better than teaching children to be racist, but over the last ten years I've realized that it's not nearly good enough to aim for colorblind individuals..  Even if I, somehow, can be completely and unbiased (and I'm not sure that's possible for anyone in all circumstances), I'm still living in a society that's not colorblind and likely will never be.  But instead of saying that's just how it is and trying to be colorblind myself, I feel like I have a responsibility to do something about changing society and that I should encourage my children to do the same.

 

That's why I talk about race often with my children.  They've lived in a wide variety of places and have seen racism from a lot of different angles so our conversations are different from a lot of families. They've seen the awful aftermath of violence because of ethnicity and/or race.  I tell them constantly that valuing diversity is important. That respect is vitally important.  Learning about other perspectives is crucial. At the very least, we must LISTEN.

 

I also feel like it's terribly important to acknowledge that white privilege does exist and even though it doesn't make my life rich and wonderful, that I still have benefited from it.  My children see so clearly how being whiter and taller in Mexico has, over many years, resulted in taller, whiter people being much better educated and much better off as a whole.  They've lived in apartments in the US where I discovered later that we approved to rent because we weren't black.  They've heard the racial epithets used against Uzbeks and Kyrgyz in Russia and the ones used against Mexicans in the US when their friends are Uzbek, Kyrgyz, and Mexican.  I know that dh and I had a better chance at a good education and employment because we're white.  That doesn't mean all white people benefit in all ways from white privilege, but I cannot deny that it's there. 

 

It's essential that I treat all people with respect, but that's not enough.  I need to talk to my children about this because it's confusing, because the adults around them don't always behave well, because we're all still working out how to get through this, and, most of all, because people who aren't white like me tell me that colorblindness doesn't work and I must believe them.

[Guest]

For our family, I have always taught that people are just people, no matter their skin color or culture. They are humans just like you and me. No better, no worse. And that you cannot judge someone by the actions of another, even if they are from the same culture, ethnic group, etc. I've taught them to appreciate the beauty of a person from their actions, and that physical beauty comes in all shapes and colors. I've also taught them that there are some horribly ugly people (in actions) out there from all backgrounds and cultures. I think I've done pretty well with my girls. They absolutely see people as equals without regards to their skin or ethnicity, and they get righteously angry when someone tries to act or say otherwise.

 

I live in a pretty racist area. It is disgusting, and usually comes from years of distrust and ignorance. The people going on and on about one race obviously have never bothered to glance at their own lives.

 

I will be honest. All of this PC stuff like a kid not even being able to refer to another kid as black, brown, or whatever (but the opposite of referring to someone as white is ok?!) is just making things worse. So many things are being labeled as racist or bigoted that I feel like I have to walk around and treat everyone like some androgynous, colorless clone of everyone else. I feel like I can't even complement someone about anything if they aren't a middle aged white southern woman without someone thinking I have some racist agenda behind it. It makes me so sad, and so frustrated.

Thank you, that's why I was trying to get at, apparently inelegantly. I agree with you 100%.

[Guest]

Safety issues first, please.

 

I'm glad your kids can have fun running around outside playing with toy guns, but my kid can't. Your colorblindness is why I'm always making excuses when you invite him for sleepovers. I know you think I'm overprotective and stuck up and that's why we don't hang out any more but I don't know how to tell you without making you get all defensive and say, "She called me a racist!" so I guess that's the end of that friendship.

 

I told my kid you were just busy and maybe you're having car troubles.

 

I don't think he believes me.

[Guest]

Safety issues first, please.

 

I'm glad your kids can have fun running around outside playing with toy guns, but my kid can't. Your colorblindness is why I'm always making excuses when you invite him for sleepovers. I know you think I'm overprotective and stuck up and that's why we don't hang out any more but I don't know how to tell you without making you get all defensive and say, "She called me a racist!" so I guess that's the end of that friendship.

 

I told my kid you were just busy and maybe you're having car troubles.

 

I don't think he believes me.

I'm not sure I understand this. Can you explain more clearly? Did your friend want the kids to play with airsoft guns and didn't respect your request that they not do that? What does that have to do with sleepovers or car trouble? I think I'm missing something that might make your post make some sense :o

[Mimm]

Haven't read any replies yet...

 

I live in a reeeally white area. When my daughter was around six years old she said she wanted to grow up to be an Indian. By which she meant that she wanted to ride horses, live in a teepee and shoot bows and arrows. I had to crush her dreams by telling her that Native Americans live like normal modern people now and that you can't grow up to be another race. ;) We've had many conversations about race over the years. We talk about the difficulties and injustices different minority groups have faced in the past and most recently. When discussing issues like the Baltimore riots, we don't just sit back condemning people for their actions, but we talk about what motivates those actions. We talk about how discrimination can be subtle and not just overt. 

 

We talk and talk and talk. I do not try to teach my kids that all people are "the same" because we're not. BUT I teach them that we SHOULD BE all equally valuable under the law and are all equally loved by God. That people are different and they don't want those differences ignored or to pretend like these don't exist. But those differences don't make people lesser in any way.

 

Maybe this isn't the perfect approach. My children have no non-white friends but to be fair, they are almost never around children of other races. When they are, they treat them just the same and my oldest has had two biracial friends in the past (the friendships fizzled when they weren't seeing each other as often). They don't make stereotyping comments such as, "All black people do this" or "Muslims are always that." I hope that I've taught my kids to think of these complicated issues on a deeper level, and not just make snap judgements based on limited information.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Like Free said above, it's about being able to think about how someone got there and why those actions are happening. It's fine to say that looting is wrong, that looters should be punished, etc. Or whatever the action is. On the other hand, it's my hope that my kids never say, "Those people should just get a job," or, "I worked hard, I got an education, they should just do that too." Because that's not understanding how much privilege they had to start with. And it's not helpful. It's not going to effect change if you just say, "Control your kids" or "Get a job" or "Have you tried not selling drugs" or whatever.

 

Well "I" get that.  But what do I say to my kids when they say black people are mean because every black person they have encountered has been mean to them.

 

I know why they are mean.  Has nothing to do with their skin color.  But that is something that is going to stand out to my kids.  

 

And then how much of it do I excuse?  I would not tolerate my kids being mean if I know about it. 

 

I'd love to find people who are a more positive example of decent people.  Lot of people with major chips on their shoulders around here.  Most of them white, but yes it's true. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok I hate to call people "not decent". I'm not going to be able to pick the right words so I'm just getting to it. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well "I" get that.  But what do I say to my kids when they say black people are mean because every black person they have encountered has been mean to them.

 

I know why they are mean.  Has nothing to do with their skin color.  But that is something that is going to stand out to my kids.  

 

And then how much of it do I excuse?  I would not tolerate my kids being mean if I know about it. 

 

I'd love to find people who are a more positive example of decent people.  Lot of people with major chips on their shoulders around here.  Most of them white, but yes it's true. 

 

Not worded exactly.  It has something to do with their skin color, but not because there is something wrong with their skin color.

See, it's even hard to have a damn conversation about this stuff. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Safety issues first, please.

 

I'm glad your kids can have fun running around outside playing with toy guns, but my kid can't. Your colorblindness is why I'm always making excuses when you invite him for sleepovers. I know you think I'm overprotective and stuck up and that's why we don't hang out any more but I don't know how to tell you without making you get all defensive and say, "She called me a racist!" so I guess that's the end of that friendship.

 

I told my kid you were just busy and maybe you're having car troubles.

 

I don't think he believes me.

 

I don't know the details, but I don't let my kids play with toy guns.  There are too many real guns and shootings around here. 

[Farrar]

Not worded exactly.  It has something to do with their skin color, but not because there is something wrong with their skin color.

See, it's even hard to have a damn conversation about this stuff. 

 

It is hard. Some of the best advice I've gotten is to just push through the awkwardness of it all.

 

If your kids have really only ever had universally negative experiences with black people, I feel like I'd make a concerted effort to find a situation for them that wouldn't be like that. One of the reasons that I value some of our non-homeschool activities so much is that they're so much more diverse.