Is it okay for Math to not take over 20 minutes?

[imagine.more]

My son is in 1st grade, working in Singapore 2A-B math this year. He loves Singapore, eagerly shows me what pages are coming up and says he can't wait until he gets to them, etc. Basically he reads the textbook basics, does the workbook 100% correctly, and is done with math in under 20 minutes every day, often more like 10-15 minutes if the workbook pages are shorter or easier than usual. He really grasps the concepts and his mental math is excellent. 

 

I keep seeing threads or hearing from other homeschool parents about math typically taking 60 minutes on average, and really that seems appropriate. But on the other hand T really does seem to be doing fine with his shorter lessons and has no desire to spend longer on math. He's due to finish 2B early as it is. 

 

So, do your kids finish math lessons quickly? Do you add more depth (intensive practice or word problems or an add-on curriculum) or move them farther on to the point where they're challenged, or just let the lessons be short? I've been just letting his lessons be short, since clearly it's working for him, but I'm not sure if I ought to change my approach. 

[Arcadia]

My older boy could finish his SM in 10mins for SM2 to SM6 if he isn't busy chatting with my younger boy. He started on SM2A/B in kindergarten.

I supplement with math puzzles because my boys enjoy them. He started taking close to an hour when in algebra 1. Even then some days are shorter because he was so hyper focus when doing.

 

My boys also read almost every book in the 520 call number aisle at the library. So I wasn't worried they spent only 10mins on book work.

[avilma]

I think it depends on you goals. My daughter in second grade does 30 minutes per day, just started MEP 3. She is very good at math but did not do as well as I had hoped in the Math Kangaroo competition (obviously haven't got the results yet but she will probably get about 55 points). I am keeping it like this for another year but if she doesn't get about 80 points next year I might increase the load to 1 hour per day.

[SeaConquest]

Mine is 6, and is about to start SM 3A next week. We only do the IP and CWP, and generally do math for 30-60 minutes, depending on his attention span. It takes us longer because my son is working with more difficult material. If your son grasps the concepts in the TB and WB easily, and you feel inclined to stretch him further, you might think about adding the IP and/or CWP/Process Skills books. 

[Jackie]

My daughter took 5-15 minutes a day for RightStarf B in kindy this year (not counting the time on games). For first grade, I plan on upping the math time to 30 minutes, filling in whatever time is left over after the RightStart lesson with Singapore's CWP and/or Zaccaro. But I really don't want to go more than that for first grade. 30 minutes is plenty long enough of a stretch.

[mathnerd]

IF your son is finishing SM easily within 20 minutes, then his math placement needs to be adjusted for him to find something to struggle with - you can either try IP and CWP or print out some MEP sheets that are appropriate for his level with some puzzle type math that will make him stop and think. Or you could bump him up a level in SM to see if that takes longer. My child does math at jet speed and I add in more challenging and wordy problems in order to teach him to stop and think and come up with answers.

[Julie of KY]

I think you are fine if you progressing in math and challenging your child. Sounds like you are.

[Pegs]

My DS' speediness with worksheets (which we don't do regularly) seems to be a result of the longer periods of time we spend on games.

 

I do understand the argument to challenge math students who are getting through their work with no struggle, but for now I'm pretty happy for DS to wrestle with challenging problems that come up elsewhere - strategy games, etc.

 

I think it really depends what you want the math curriculum to be doing for the child. Meeting an intellectual need to engage with more abstract ideas? Establishing a solid foundation in the early years? Developing frustration tolerance and perseverance? I expect that you had certain goals in mind when you selected the curriculum you're using. Perhaps those goals can guide you regarding the suitability of this program at this level, for your DS right now.

[lewelma]

My ds did not even do any formal maths at 6.  And he is pretty radically accelerated now.   My approach at that age was to make sure that he was loving what he was learning.  For math we just played shop, or paced out the local field, or estimated the number of cars, or did lots of puzzles or made up word problems. So just because the formal math only takes you 20 minutes doesn't mean anything really.  Does he want to do more?  Does he enjoy what he is learning?  Does he get a chance to live with numbers in the real world? 

 

I'm not sure who does an hour of formal math with a 6 year old. Certainly not me.

 

Ruth in NZ

[elmerRex]

There is no reason to make a task take longer than it takes. Mathematics is no different.

[imagine.more]

My DS' speediness with worksheets (which we don't regularly) seems to be a result of the longer periods of time we spend on games.

 

I do understand the argument to challenge math students who are getting through their work with no struggle, but for now I'm pretty happy for DS to wrestle with challenging problems that come up elsewhere - strategy games, etc.

 

I think it really depends what you want the math curriculum to be doing for the child. Meeting an intellectual need to engage with more abstract ideas? Establishing a solid foundation in the early years? Developing frustration tolerance and perseverance? I expect that you had certain goals in mind when you selected the curriculum you're using. Perhaps those goals can guide you regarding the suitability of this program at this level, for your DS right now.

Good point to look at our goals for him. I want him to have a solid foundation in math for the early years so when he gets to upper level math he understands it and can go as far as he'd like (I puttered out after PreCalculus because of a poor foundational knowledge myself). He wants to be a scientist now so obv he will need higher level math if he continues wanting that but i think that at his current trend he's all set to do that. I have him in sports and music to teach him perseverance since schoolwork comes so easily. :)

[KSinNS]

Honestly, none of my kids could have done more than 20 minutes at 6. He's getting his work done, he's learning to focus and be efficient, and he's rewarded for his efforts by more play time! Win, win! 

[plansrme]

I would add in at least CWP and IP for Singapore, always, because, to me, that's the best part of the curriculum.  Eventually, though, he will need to work on his endurance.  Math is like swimming:  in the early years, you might work on technique only and excel in the 25-yard sprints in summer league.  Eventually, though, you also need to focus on endurance because there is no 25 yard-anything in college swimming.

[RoundAbout]

I don't think there is anything wrong with math taking only 20 minutes most days, but I would also really look to see if he's being challenged.  My second grader is doing Beast Academy 4B and spends about 60 minutes a day on it but its not a chore because the problems are so fun and puzzle like.  One thing I learned from doing RightStart A-C in preschool-1st grade is that a bright wiggly kid with a short attention span can still do a lot of math if you cover more than one topic, keep it fun, and keep the worksheets to a minimum.  People complain that RightStart jumps around a lot often doing 3-4 different activities in a single lesson (ex. mental math, main lesson, game, tangrams, etc.)  but it was perfect for my son because it was hands on and the variety kept him interested and focused.

[Brad S]

I certainly don't see a need to push, especially at such an early age -- it is likely just to make math unpleasant IMHO. If the material is really understood well and the problems are solved easily, I don't see a need for the IP books, but the SM Challenging Word Problems books are a great supplement.

[quark]

We did do about an hour of math in the younger years, but it wasn't formal. The formal, curriculum part was about 20 minutes here in the mornings. Then we did another 15-20 minutes after lunch and about 20 minutes more later in the day but the last two sessions were puzzles, games, whiteboard math where I gave him a question and he gave me one in return, ciphers he had to solve, living math books to read and ponder about and so on. I split math up into 2-3 strands and that's how it came up to about an hour a day.

 

If your DS is eager about upcoming pages and if he is willing (I know some kids aren't and want to complete every single page), and since he is already doing so well, I would consider jumping to those pages that he likes. We did something similar (compacting the curriculum, doing only the parts he loved and the parts I felt would help fill gaps).

[HS Mom in NC]

 If my kids do it in 20 minutes and get 100%, I would move on to the next concept. We spent about 30 minutes on math at that age (nothing wrong with 20 minutes with a 1st grader, by the way) and worked at their ability level.  That meant as soon as they mastered something (complete understanding and ease) we moved on even if there was more practice available in the curriculum.  That's for kids that haven't mastered it yet.

Remember, no curriculum writer can cater to an individual child and stay in business.  The curriculum writer has to provide materials for a wide range of children with different innate abilities and different rates of learning or they won't make any money because their curriculum would only work for a small segment of the population. There are children who will master some concepts in any given subject faster than others.  Cater the curriculum to your child.  If they need more practice to really master it, give them more practice.  If they need less, give them less and focus on things they do need more time on: the next concept, weak skills in another subject or some other sort of worthwhile project or pursuit. 

Every child needs regular challenges.  It's important for their emotional maturation process.  People, like my husband, who learn things quickly and effortlessly compared to their age mates, are often denied the opportunity to be a little frustrated sometimes so they can learn to deal with it. They need to practice working at something for a while before they get it. Then for years and years some of them continue on a path with few or no bumps along the road and then they get to college without the emotional resilience facing academic challenges now and then can provide.  They finally get "off the conveyor belt" and get to take challenging classes for once and can struggle emotionally with the transition for a while.  Other students who were working at their real ability levels consistently are not surprised and may even anticipate that sort thing so the transition is smoother for them.

 

My middle daughter started at the cc at 15 because she needed Calculus and college level sciences.  The end of her homeschool high school here my husband was able to go through error analysis and statistics with my girls (14 and 16 then) which was incredibly helpful preparation for science classes.  They weren't just able to collect data in a science class, they understood how to use and understand that data, which is why my middle daughter's chemistry teacher said she was the best prepared freshmen he'd ever seen.  So, when you master the regularly required math earlier, you have time to pursue other aspects of math at higher levels. Many mathy kids like that.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

For first grade, yes.

 

 

[imagine.more]

 

Every child needs regular challenges.  It's important for their emotional maturation process.  People, like my husband, who learn things quickly and effortlessly compared to their age mates, are often denied the opportunity to be a little frustrated sometimes so they can learn to deal with it. They need to practice working at something for a while before they get it. Then for years and years some of them continue on a path with few or no bumps along the road and then they get to college without the emotional resilience facing academic challenges now and then can provide.  They finally get "off the conveyor belt" and get to take challenging classes for once and can struggle emotionally with the transition for a while.  Other students who were working at their real ability levels consistently are not surprised and may even anticipate that sort thing so the transition is smoother for them.

 

 

I think this is a good point and this is a large part of why we homeschool. Both my husband and I, not nearly as advanced as Tobias, felt we were allowed to skate by for far too long and developed bad habits in school that we later had to overcome. It made us get discouraged too quickly when a particular subject didn't come easily right away....we'd just write it off as "meh, I guess I'm not good at that". As an adult we can recognize and fight it but that is often a knee-jerk reaction. 

 

I think based on all the responses and just mulling this over that I will maybe slowly begin to increase the work load by adding the Singapore Challenging Word Problems or some other supplemental thing next year (maybe Life of Fred though at first glance the text seems terribly awkward and weird and the math problems seem haphazard). Maybe I'll aim for 30 minutes of math for 2nd and 3rd grade, 40 minutes in 4th and 5th. That way by middle school Tobias can handle the 50-60 minutes of math that will be required to do well in high school math. 

[IsabelC]

No it is not OK. The Intergalactic Math Police will hunt you down and force you to take longer doing your math. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

No it is not OK. The Intergalactic Math Police will hunt you down and force you to take longer doing your math. 

 

Ok I know it is past my bedtime, but I first somehow missed the "IMP" part and thought WTF?!  LMAO

[lewelma]

I do not think that kids need to be challenged in all subjects.  So if your ds is challenged in another subject so that he develops persistence, I don't think he has to be challenged in math in first grade. I think it is *way* more important that at age 6 your child likes math and enjoys doing puzzles.  Be very careful that you don't ramp it up too far and destroy the passion. 

 

I will say it again, my ds did not do *any* formal math at age 6, and 8 years later he is passionate about his maths, spends 4-6 hours a day on math because he wants to, considers himself a mathematician, and is one of the top highschoolers in the country in math.  What a child does in a formal way at age 6 does NOT dictate where they will be in the teen years. 

 

Some times I feel that homeschool moms hear that so&so is doing xxx amount of work; and thus to be successful, we must do that too.  There are *many* paths to success.  I certainly would never denigrate those whose kids do Singapore maths or AoPS very young because their child *wants* to, but just be aware that there are those of us whose children were not interested in math with pencil and paper at a young age who have ended up at the very top math echelon.  I really believe that a young gifted child is better served by following his interests than pushing challenge because he *can* do the work.  I absolutely know that my ds could have done algebra at age 6 because he invented it himself.  But he did not *want* to at that age.  Rather, he wanted to play with his legos and walk in the park. 

 

My point: do what *you* think is right, do not do it because you think everyone else is.  Because not all of us do. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[imagine.more]

No it is not OK. The Intergalactic Math Police will hunt you down and force you to take longer doing your math. 

 

Bahaha! Gotta watch out for those Math Police ;)

[purpleowl]

Bahaha! Gotta watch out for those Math Police ;)

 

Yeah, you really don't want to add to their workload, or your problems will multiply.  They are pretty good at a "divide and conquer" strategy though.  

[chepyl]

I don't see any reason for a 6 year old to do math for an hour. My 4th grader has only ever done an average of 20 minutes a day in math. Occasionally, a harder topic with take longer. Some days he begs for more math.

 

Even when we hit a topic we struggled with (long division), we did short lessons. 4 problems a day until he was confident with it.

 

He has still excelled and is very strong on math. More is not always better. Especially with an advanced child.

[EKS]

FWIW, the workbook problems are somewhat easier than the textbook problems.  If he is just looking at the lesson in the textbook and not doing the problems (or at least the harder problems), he is not getting as much out of the program as he could be.

[mathwonk]

When I was 11, my school skipped me over 6th grade.  I had to learn the 6th grade math curriculum over the summer, and as I recall, all they did that year was multiply and divide fractions.  That took less than 20 minutes of one day to learn cold.  I.e. I covered the whole 6th grade curriculum in 20 minutes.  So for a 30 week academic school year, that's less than 10 seconds per day, 5 days a week.  And now I have a PhD in math.  So in any given year, the answer is pretty much whatever you want it to be.  (I don't recall learning any math in 7th grade either.)  But at some point they should learn something.

 

I recommend  everyone learn what is in Jacobs' Elementary Algebra book, and for most people also what is in his Geometry book.  How many minutes a day it takes is variable, but enough to have it sink in, probably more than 20.  After that, it isn't essential to go lots further, unless you will be a scientist.  Then calculus is needed, and a nice book on that is Lectures on Freshman Calculus by Cruse and Granberg, but there are a lot of other reasonable books too.

 

edit/addition: One really fun and easy topic that is not taught nearly as early as it could be is linear and matrix algebra.  there are lots of free videos online for this too.  I am teaching bright 8-10 year olds this summer, and I am going to make a point of introducing them to these free videos:  khan academy, MIT opencourseware, free video lectures at Harvard.

 

Probably you guys know more than I do about these resources but I wanted to emphasize that video courses apparently taught to college students at ivy league schools can be easy enough for bright youngsters, viz:  Gilbert Strang on linear algebra at MIT.   I am going to use khan academy, intro to vectors, as a warmup for my 8 year olds.