A year without God turns into atheism.........(article)

[fraidycat]

Yeah it's pretty bizarre. It's ok you are treated like crap in this world because in some supposed other world things will be great. That's not much comfort to me.

This. So much this. It's not a religion of life, it's a cult of death.

 

Who cares what goes on in life that I see, feel, experience right now, eternal reward (may, or may not) come when I'm maggot food.

 

Can't wrap my brain around this. Just. Can't.

[fraidycat]

I have no doubt that even if there were no suffering in the world, people would say there's no God.

Correct.

 

Again, we don't blame God. We're asking those who believe in his supposed 'goodness' - why?

[SparklyUnicorn]

This. So much this. It's not a religion of life, it's a cult of death.

 

Who cares what goes on in life that I see, feel, experience right now, eternal reward (may, or may not) come when I'm maggot food.

 

Can't wrap my brain around this. Just. Can't.

 

Yeah isn't that what the slaves in this country were taught?  They were enduring for bigger and better things. 

 

Another reason I am skeptical about stuff like missionary work.  The whole dangling a small bone so people can convert someone while they are at their most vulnerable.  Go ahead and show up at the country club with your sale's pitch and see how many joiners you get.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think all religious people are like that.  I don't want to sound totally nasty here. 

[Murphy101]

If God would remove all free will so that only the urge to obey and do good is possible among people and then also make those people manage all resources to where everyone has nutrients, hydration and safety - would he then be worth worshipping or believing?

 

I don't need nor expect that to believe in God.

[hornblower]

Yeah isn't that what the slaves in this country were taught?  They were enduring for bigger and better things. 

 

Another reason I am skeptical about stuff like missionary work.  The whole dangling a small bone so people can convert someone while they are at their most vulnerable.  Go ahead and show up at the country club with your sale's pitch and see how many joiners you get.

 

can't help but notice that the message is quite different in those circles - viz. prosperity theology

[Murphy101]

Yeah it's pretty bizarre. It's ok you are treated like crap in this world because in some supposed other world things will be great. That's not much comfort to me.

I don't believe that way.

 

I don't much get the allure of heaven in general personally. I mean sure I hope to go there when I die, because all the alternatives seem to really suck, but no I'm not telling anyone it's okay to be treated like crap bc they won't be in heaven. Likewise, I'm not making breakfast to deliver to someone tomorrow bc I think to bribe my way through the pearly gates with it. (Tho seriously eggnog frech toast casserole is pretty awesome.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I need some sort of evidence to believe there is a god.  Good or bad...I don't see any.

 

I think if life was perfect fewer people would feel the need to imagine/hope there was a god and a better life after death.

 

I have no sense of anger and disgust over "god" because I see suffering in the world.  That suggests I believe there is a god and that he is one mean SOB.  I don't have any reason to believe that is true either. 

 

I never said I know there is no god.  I am saying I have no reason to believe there is one. 

[Murphy101]

What would convince you there is a God?

[8circles]

If God would remove all free will so that only the urge to obey and do good is possible among people and then also make those people manage all resources to where everyone has nutrients, hydration and safety - would he then be worth worshipping or believing?

 

I don't need nor expect that to believe in God.

 

I'm not an athiest.  But I'm not sure why the all-powerful God who asks other people (who he knows aren't reliable) to do his job and then blames them for people suffering is worth worshiping either. 

[goldberry]

I enjoy reading this thread immensely.  And I really do enjoy hearing the reasoning of the other side.  

 

So, here is something I don't get though, about the reasoning that an omnipotent and loving God could not possibly be there WITHOUT intervening right now to stop all the badness happening....why is free will not enough of an answer?  Or why does it not seem to be a logical answer to some of you?  My reasoning is that God gave man free will.  If he did not give man free will, we would just all be robots, and that is not what he wanted.  If he gave man free will but then stepped in and fixed all the consequences of that (both big and small) or prevented that free will from being exercised in the first place if it was being exercised to harm, then how could that be free will?  And how could I trust God at that point?  Either we have free will or we don't.  If God gave humans free will, then God is also bound to honor that by NOT stepping in and fixing or preventing everything.  I believe that God's plan of salvation by Jesus Christ is his way of honoring that gift of free will and yet still ensuring that his purpose for humankind (a purpose of good) can be achieved.  

 

So why (for some of you) is the argument of free will not a valid argument for why a loving and omnipotent God does not intervene right here and now? 

[*Lulu*]

I get it.

 

Suffering means there's no God to some people.

 

I simply disagree.

 

I don't think children starve because God doesn't love them enough. They starve because people don't.

 

What about the many starving people who do get help? But that's not god either many say. That's just people.

 

I have no doubt that even if there were no suffering in the world, people would say there's no God.

But, I absolutely do believe in God.

 

I just don't agree with this both-sides-of-the-mouth Christianity that says, out loud, to people in pain, God is busy turning red lights green but hasn't the inclination to stop a gunman from entering an elementary school.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What would convince you there is a God?

 

If he bought me a sparkly unicorn.

 

LOL

 

Ok, but seriously, I do not know.  I think it would have to be something very out of the ordinary.  Or even perhaps something very ordinary.  Maybe I'd know it if I saw it.  I can't say what that would be specifically though.  It wouldn't be that something went right for me.  I've had a lot of things go right for me.  It wouldn't be encountering good fortune.  Had that too.  It wouldn't be curing a loved one.  It would have to be something I would understand and just know it was what it was.

 

Some people have told me that if I don't force myself to believe and if I don't follow the club rules which includes reading the correct books, etc. that I'll go to a bad place.  That sort of idea of a higher power/god makes no sense at all to me.  If I were supposedly created by this amazing being wouldn't that being know that this is who I am?  That I have done the best with what I have?  Why would I be punished for that?  The way I am hurts nobody.  Why would it matter if I follow the rules created by other humans?  So I don't worry about it.  I can't be something else. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I enjoy reading this thread immensely.  And I really do enjoy hearing the reasoning of the other side.  

 

So, here is something I don't get though, about the reasoning that an omnipotent and loving God could not possibly be there WITHOUT intervening right now to stop all the badness happening....why is free will not enough of an answer?  Or why does it not seem to be a logical answer to some of you?  My reasoning is that God gave man free will.  If he did not give man free will, we would just all be robots, and that is not what he wanted.  If he gave man free will but then stepped in and fixed all the consequences of that (both big and small) or prevented that free will from being exercised in the first place if it was being exercised to harm, then how could that be free will?  And how could I trust God at that point?  Either we have free will or we don't.  If God gave humans free will, then God is also bound to honor that by NOT stepping in and fixing or preventing everything.  I believe that God's plan of salvation by Jesus Christ is his way of honoring that gift of free will and yet still ensuring that his purpose for humankind (a purpose of good) can be achieved.  

 

So why (for some of you) is the argument of free will not a valid argument for why a loving and omnipotent God does not intervene right here and now? 

 

Oh I think it could be.  The fact there is suffering in the world is not evidence for or against a god.  But we have our limitations in terms of how we think about these things and put them into words.  I think some people just find it incredibly frustrating that some people claim god answers their prayers and if not well either it was not meant to be or they didn't pray right.  Although lots of religious people don't believe that. 

[Murphy101]

I'm not an athiest. But I'm not sure why the all-powerful God who asks other people (who he knows aren't reliable) to do his job and then blames them for people suffering is worth worshiping either.

Who says it's his job?

 

If he did this crappy job and demanded no work on our part, this is basicly a God-slave again as far as I can tell. Why would that be worth worshipping to you? If you had a robot or slave that worked and guarded for you reliably all the time without you doing much or anything on your own or in return, would you worship it?

[Murphy101]

But, I absolutely do believe in God.

 

I just don't agree with this both-sides-of-the-mouth Christianity that says, out loud, to people in pain, God is busy turning red lights green but hasn't the inclination to stop a gunman from entering an elementary school.

I didn't intend that to be addressed to you.

 

But I will state again that that is not what I do nor do I agree with that either.

[TranquilMind]

I don't know how you can know God doesn't teach that way. The Bible disagrees with your assertion; it is full of examples of God doing horrible things to people, either directly or indirectly, to teach them something.

 

The difference between us and God though is that if we know someone might abuse our kid, we do what we can to prevent it. God, for whatever reason, almost never does.

That is simply false. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Who says it's his job?

 

If he did this crappy job and demanded no work on our part, this is basicly a God-slave again as far as I can tell. Why would that be worth worshipping to you? If you had a robot or slave that worked and guarded for you reliably all the time without you doing much or anything on your own or in return, would you worship it?

 

So where did you get your belief?  Do you feel as if you just knew?  Did it start because other people told you and you believed them?  Do you "feel" something? 

 

I don't feel anything at all.  I don't see the point in worshiping something I can't even conjure up in my imagination.  I have tried because so many people around me tell me something is there. 

 

Just trying to explain how it is for me in my mind.

[8circles]

Who says it's his job?

 

If he did this crappy job and demanded no work on our part, this is basicly a God-slave again as far as I can tell. Why would that be worth worshipping to you? If you had a robot or slave that worked and guarded for you reliably all the time without you doing much or anything on your own or in return, would you worship it?

 

I think it's my job to take care of my children.  If it isn't God's job to take care of me then I guess I'm not his child.  

 

I haven't offered any scenario in which God would be worthy of worship, not that I think there is or isn't one possible.  No, a robot God would not be worthy of worship.

[DragonFaerie]

One of the big problems I've always had with faith is that it seems like whenever bad things happen, it's because people have free will.  But whenever good things happen, it's because God is good.  I don't buy it.  He is given credit for the good but not responsibility for the bad.

[8circles]

I enjoy reading this thread immensely.  And I really do enjoy hearing the reasoning of the other side.  

 

So, here is something I don't get though, about the reasoning that an omnipotent and loving God could not possibly be there WITHOUT intervening right now to stop all the badness happening....why is free will not enough of an answer?  Or why does it not seem to be a logical answer to some of you?  My reasoning is that God gave man free will.  If he did not give man free will, we would just all be robots, and that is not what he wanted.  If he gave man free will but then stepped in and fixed all the consequences of that (both big and small) or prevented that free will from being exercised in the first place if it was being exercised to harm, then how could that be free will?  And how could I trust God at that point?  Either we have free will or we don't.  If God gave humans free will, then God is also bound to honor that by NOT stepping in and fixing or preventing everything.  I believe that God's plan of salvation by Jesus Christ is his way of honoring that gift of free will and yet still ensuring that his purpose for humankind (a purpose of good) can be achieved.  

 

So why (for some of you) is the argument of free will not a valid argument for why a loving and omnipotent God does not intervene right here and now? 

 

Because I'm not OK with being sacrificed in the name of free will - too bad, so sad.    I don't appreciate being collateral damage in his great social experiment.  Why did he even bother?

[goldberry]

But, I absolutely do believe in God.

 

I just don't agree with this both-sides-of-the-mouth Christianity that says, out loud, to people in pain, God is busy turning red lights green but hasn't the inclination to stop a gunman from entering an elementary school.

 

I agree with you on this.  I personally believe that *mostly* God answers our prayers by helping us on this inside rather than on the outside...by helping us endure, learn, discern, grow..  If I believed he changed red lights I would have to hold him responsible for the elementary school.  I'm not saying flat out that people who believe that way are wrong .... but to me that is not the way it works.

[Murphy101]

I think it's my job to take care of my children. If it isn't God's job to take care of me then I guess I'm not his child.

 

I haven't offered any scenario in which God would be worthy of worship, not that I think there is or isn't one possible. No, a robot God would not be worthy of worship.

At what point do you not have the job of taking care of your kids?

 

How far do you think a loving parent should go to take care of them? What about difficult kids, would you medicate them into compliancy? What about selfish kids who are well off as adults? Would you 'steal' from them to give your other kids more?

 

Again... To me it seems to me the existence of free will seems to be counter to the existence of a God to many to me. It seems the arguments always seem to come down to that.

 

Did I say "to me" often enough?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree with you on this.  I personally believe that *mostly* God answers our prayers by helping us on this inside rather than on the outside...by helping us endure, learn, discern, grow..  If I believed he changed red lights I would have to hold him responsible for the elementary school.  I'm not saying flat out that people who believe that way are wrong .... but to me that is not the way it works.

 

That is the way I was taught it works (what you believe).  Prayer is a sort of meditation.  Not a wishing well. 

 

Which is why it's a bit odd when someone says they will pray for me.  I know they mean well so it's ok, but it's kinda like do they need comforting?  What will praying for me do for me? 

[goldberry]

Because I'm not OK with being sacrificed in the name of free will - too bad, so sad.    I don't appreciate being collateral damage in his great social experiment.  Why did he even bother?

 

Trying to understand....are you saying that you would rather we not have been created/not existed? (Which I understand why some people might feel that way...)   Or we were created without free will, more like robots?  There are only so many possible choices...  

[goldberry]

 

 

Which is why it's a bit odd when someone says they will pray for me.  I know they mean well so it's ok, but it's kinda like do they need comforting?  What will praying for me do for me? 

 

Well, I also have the slightly new-agey view that positive thoughts carry energy that can actually have effect at times.  That's why I often say, "sending positive thoughts your way".  Mostly when I pray for people I pray that God will comfort them and give them strength.  

[8circles]

At what point do you not have the job of taking care of your kids?

 

How far do you think a loving parent should go to take care of them? What about difficult kids, would you medicate them into compliancy? What about selfish kids who are well off as adults? Would you 'steal' from them to give your other kids more?

 

Again... To me it seems to me the existence of free will seems to be counter to the existence of a God to many to me. It seems the arguments always seem to come down to that.

 

Did I say "to me" often enough?

 

I'm just not sure how you mean this when we're talking about the suffering of children.  I honestly don't know how to answer.  If you really mean my actual children then I guess when they're 18?  I mean that's the generally accepted expectation, no?  How this relates to the actual topic we're discussing I don't know.

[hornblower]

What would convince you there is a God?

 

Evidence. And it would have to something pretty amazingly awesome.

 

& even then, I'd probably be thinking Hmmmm, Alien Technology because of Clarke's 3rd law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."   So I'd be looking at the supposed deity and considering, you're either a charlatan or a space traveler, which is it?

 

 

I'm going to suggest Sam Harris's Atheist Manifesto because I think it pretty much sums up the arguments in a concise & thorough way.

 

I particularly would bring in this quote as it's pertinent to some issues recently raised:

 

"If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man."

 

 

We seem to be hard wired for stories & for narrative & that's why I think religions persist but I honestly think these are stories we made up to comfort ourselves, back when the world made no sense, when we didn't understand thunder or planetary motions or seasons or bacteria. There's still so much we don't understand - but I don't think these stories are really relevant to us. If there is a god, if there was some being who tipped the cosmos into creation, they probably have no clue & don't really care that we're here, on our little blue planet amidst billions & billions of other planets.  I just think it's arrogance to think we're special enough to warrant some deity concerning themselves with our actions & thoughts.

[8circles]

Trying to understand....are you saying that you would rather we not have been created/not existed? (Which I understand why some people might feel that way...)   Or we were created without free will, more like robots?  There are only so many possible choices...  

 

I'm saying I don't get it.  Why in the blazes did he create such a crap-world where innocent people suffer just to blame the suffering on others, that he also created?  It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I'm saying its a sucky answer that people suffer because of free will.

 

I'm saying God is supposed to be omnipotent omnipresent almighty etc etc etc and this is the best he could do?  So he could swoop in at the end with Jesus and save the day & that makes the suffering OK?  Because why?  Was he bored?

[fraidycat]

 

 

still ensuring that his purpose for humankind (a purpose of good) can be achieved.

 

 

What does this even mean? What purpose of good? What does that look like?

[Murphy101]

Evidence. And it would have to something pretty amazingly awesome.

 

& even then, I'd probably be thinking Hmmmm, Alien Technology because of Clarke's 3rd law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So I'd be looking at the supposed deity and considering, you're either a charlatan or a space traveler, which is it?

 

 

I'm going to suggest Sam Harris's Atheist Manifesto because I think it pretty much sums up the arguments in a concise & thorough way.

 

I particularly would bring in this quote as it's pertinent to some issues recently raised:

 

"If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man."

 

This gives man more credit than I think due. I don't think man is worthy of a God. Maybe that's the real reason it's so hard for many to believe in one, especially when it is not a slave-God.

[8circles]

This gives man more credit than I think due. I don't think man is worthy of a God. Maybe that's the real reason it's so hard for many to believe in one, especially when it is not a slave-God.

 

So again I ask - why did he bother giving us one?  If innocent children are not worthy of a God, that isn't their doing but it certainly is their burden to carry around.  Why. Bother.  "My dear children, I love you more than you can imagine... but you don't deserve me.  And I will never let you forget it.  Please, help your siblings so they don't suffer.  See you on the other side."

 

I don't know where this idea of a slave-God is coming from.  

[8circles]

So much of this conversation reminds me of a rousing discussion we have a few months back in Sunday School (adult).  Quill reminded me of it initially and I think many threads are showing it to be true.  (putting on my xtian hat for a moment because I am not an athiest, not proselytizing) xtians are, generally speaking, unwilling to fully acknowledge, appreciate, sit with metaphorical "death".  During communion we proclaim the Lord's DEATH until he comes.    

 

People suffer.  Other people say free will and it'll be OK because Jesus.

 

But people are still suffering.  Other people are now not feeling so bad about it because free will & Jesus.

 

Even here in my first world, I'M suffering (for reasons shared and not shared) (yes, even in my suffering I'm VERY aware that it's first-world suffering).  Free-will and Jesus aren't helpful.  I can't even imagine what it's like for people worse off than me. 

 

PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.  Jumping past that to get to Jesus/salvation/resurrection/etc is not right.  Responding to suffering with freewill is worse than inadequate, it's cruel.

 

I know I'm not explaining well - I've got a massive head cold.  I'm not meaning to direct this at any specific people but I've been thinking about this since Quill's post so I had to get something out.  I'm also not meaning to offend, so if it sounds offensive, please give me the benefit of the doubt.  

 

ETA:  Just explaining that this topic was brought-up by a chaplain at a nursing home so it was in context of counseling people who are at death's door or their families.  I don't advocate just commiseration in response to suffering.

[Guest]

I enjoy reading this thread immensely. And I really do enjoy hearing the reasoning of the other side.

 

So, here is something I don't get though, about the reasoning that an omnipotent and loving God could not possibly be there WITHOUT intervening right now to stop all the badness happening....why is free will not enough of an answer? Or why does it not seem to be a logical answer to some of you? My reasoning is that God gave man free will. If he did not give man free will, we would just all be robots, and that is not what he wanted. If he gave man free will but then stepped in and fixed all the consequences of that (both big and small) or prevented that free will from being exercised in the first place if it was being exercised to harm, then how could that be free will? And how could I trust God at that point? Either we have free will or we don't. If God gave humans free will, then God is also bound to honor that by NOT stepping in and fixing or preventing everything. I believe that God's plan of salvation by Jesus Christ is his way of honoring that gift of free will and yet still ensuring that his purpose for humankind (a purpose of good) can be achieved.

 

So why (for some of you) is the argument of free will not a valid argument for why a loving and omnipotent God does not intervene right here and now?

Here's my response to that, and bear in mind, I am not an atheist. It's "personal God" that doesn't quite wash with me.

 

First, the Biblical set-up is that God gave humans free will so that we would not be robotic "yes men." However, we are also told that God is Holy and so cannot abide anything less than perfection. So, we *can* choose to follow God or not, but only perfection is acceptable, which no person can attain on his or her own. Therefore, Jesus had to suffer and die to "pay" for our sins (am I the ONLY person who wonders *why* that works?), however it also isn't credited to our account unless we cash the check. Does this not seem very convoluted? When I had children, I hoped that I could lovingly raise them into decent human beings, but I never hoped or expected that they would do the right thing 100% of the time. But this is what Love does - It expects the best and keeps on loving, even when things are not perfect.

 

Second, not all harm and tragedy is an outgrowth of the free will of a bad person perpetrating the crime. Rural people groups starving because the crop did not grow may have nothing to do with any person or organization's free will. It can be just because it's dry as can be or because the locusts ate everything in sight. Sorry to keep personalizing this but this bothered me in particular when my baby died. The placenta separated prematurely. This is not a result of anyone's choices. It's a biological failure, eloquently summed up as, "sh#t happens." If god was going to intervene in anyone's life, wouldn't the obvious hope be to avert senseless tragedy? If good Christians don't hope so, then why pray? Nobody seems to mind God's intervention when they pray that God will reverse cancer, revive someone in cardiac arrest, protect innocent lives.

 

Third, read the OT and try to demonstrate that God does not intervene to stop bad people from acting like asses. There's a whole lot of, "...and God's anger burned against the Israelites...the ground opened and swallowed them up...they were struck with a plague...they were consumed in fire from heaven..." How about Soddom and Gemorah, where Abraham bargains with God to let him find a couple of decent folks? How about The Great Flood where God decides He is scrapping this entire project and having a do-over? I always did find that story horrifying. It's actually much better that I believe it is a myth; why would anyone who believes it is a true account want to worship that God? I find it hard to love a Being that would drown almost all of humanity. I would not want to love someone who would drown so much as a kitten.

[*Lulu*]

Quill, I think there are a lot of Christians out there that are asking these questions and finding that sitting with the questions is enough. For those of us raised and steeped in the absolute-answer-for-everything evangelicalism it feels like a loss of faith when we start down this path.

 

I find great comfort that some of the things that weigh heavy for me were also heavy for theologians and church leaders from the beginning. I'm not breaking away to some new age ideas; I'm wondering down a set of well established, less heavily used trails, many of which predate the founding of most of the branches/denominations of the church.

[Murphy101]

So again I ask - why did he bother giving us one? If innocent children are not worthy of a God, that isn't their doing but it certainly is their burden to carry around. Why. Bother. "My dear children, I love you more than you can imagine... but you don't deserve me. And I will never let you forget it. Please, help your siblings so they don't suffer. See you on the other side."

 

I don't know where this idea of a slave-God is coming from.

One - I'm not speaking of children specificly (you seem to be tho?). I'm speaking of man as in humans in general or as "child of God".

 

Two - I don't know why He would love us to be honest. If you think the world is this awful, why did you bother to have children? Do you regret having them? (Rhetorical.)

 

Three - everything many are claiming here is required of a god to be a god, or at least a good one, seem to me to mean that they think that God must serve our needs and wants as we need and want it and that we hold no reciprocity or responsiblity towards that God for doing so.

[livetoread]

What is heaven going to be like regarding free will? I would think that anyone who has died with their sinful nature is somehow going to have to be "cleansed" of that sinful nature before going there because we are incapable of not sinning otherwise and heaven would look like earth real soon.

 

Are people in heaven robots? How does God assure that there is no sin in heaven while still respecting free will? I would say that however that works, that is what should happen here. Whatever God does regarding the balance of free will and sinlessness to make them "heaven-worthy" he should just do here.

 

Besides, ultimately free will does not trump preventing suffering in our moral code - only when it comes to God. If I had a daughter and a rapist comes knocking saying he wants my daughter and I do nothing to protect her because I don't want to violate the rapist's free will, you wouldn't think much of me and rightly so. I can prevent my son from conking his younger sister in the head with a toy without violating his free will. It is the moral thing to do to step in and prevent suffering. You don't have to brainwash someone to prevent them from hurting someone else. We all agree on that with each other, but because God doesn't do this, suddenly it's all about free will.

 

If you had a pill that takes away a pedophile's desire for young children with no other side effects and pedophiles are begging you for it, would you give it to them, or would you shrug and tell them sorry, it violates your free will. God has that pill. God could take away their desires when they ask him to, but 99.999% of the time, he doesn't. Think of all the child who would not be raped if God would simply take away their desires *when they asked*. No free will violation involved. And yet, it doesn't happen.

 

Like others have said, it is a hard sell to say that this deity (if it exists) is good.

[fraidycat]

One - I'm not speaking of children specificly (you seem to be tho?). I'm speaking of man as in humans in general or as "child of God".

 

So what is your answer IF we are only asking about innocent children. Why can't you separate children from adults? Do your answers about "because God" still hold weight if you do?

 

Two - I don't know why He would love us to be honest. If you think the world is this awful, why did you both to have children? Do you regret having them? (Rhetorical.)

 

Um. .... ??

 

Three - everything many are claiming here is required of a god to be a god, or at least a good one, seem to me to mean that they think that God must serve our needs and wants as we need and want it and that we hold no reciprocity or responsiblity towards that God for doing so.

 

Such as? Are we reading the same posts?

 

[8circles]

One - I'm not speaking of children specificly (you seem to be tho?). I'm speaking of man as in humans in general or as "child of God".

 

Two - I don't know why He would love us to be honest. If you think the world is this awful, why did you both to have children? Do you regret having them? (Rhetorical.)

 

Three - everything many are claiming here is required of a god to be a god, or at least a good one, seem to me to mean that they think that God must serve our needs and wants as we need and want it and that we hold no reciprocity or responsiblity towards that God for doing so.

I'm not only speaking about children but non of your response seem to apply to them and I'm no sure why there isn't ever an answer to that.

 

If God doesn't love his creation I wish he hadn't created me. I have no desire to be part of his game.

 

Yes, I'm glad I created my children - I love my children. I didn't fully realize the awfulness of world when we had them but I don't think I would have not had them. I do my best to give them a happy life and keep them safe.

 

I don't know how reciprocity comes into the picture regarding suffering and freewill. People don't only suffer because they didn't do something right.

[hornblower]

What would convince you there is a God?

 

What would convince you there is no God?

 

sorry - do not mean to put you on the spot. You needn't answer if you don't wish to...

[DragonFaerie]

What would convince you there is no God?

 

sorry - do not mean to put you on the spot. You needn't answer if you don't wish to...

 

Rapists, murders, disease, famine, mental illness, suicide, hatred..... the list is endless.

[IsabelC]

The number of gods and goddesses throughout human history has been estimated at around 28 million. I find it mildly amusing that so many people argue for the existence of "a god" and then make a leap of logic to assume that the god in question must be their particular one, as opposed to one of the other 27 999 999 or so deities. A lottery ticket would probably offer better odds than a pascals wager on all those goddesses and gods.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

A reminder: please do not make assumptions about each other, or ascribe motivations that have not been stated; stick to the issues. Thanks.

 

SWB

[hornblower]

Rapists, murders, disease, famine, mental illness, suicide, hatred..... the list is endless.

 

see, for me it's simpler. It's just that there is no evidence that there is one or two or three or many ....

 

All these terrible things are part of human condition. We've evolved to have these traits because sometimes they're or have been biologically advantageous, or they occur because there are errors in cellular replication or because or body chemistry gets messed up due to illness or exposure to chemicals or other agents.... .

 

The parasites that can enter our bodies and grow & develop and start eating our brains don't do it because any god thought this was a good thing or that we deserved it or are being punished. They're just fullfilling their evolutionary role. The lion that kills a child walking at the edge of town is not a sign the gods are mad or the family wasn't pious enough or a sign that Jesus wanted the child to go to heaven. It's just a predator killing to eat or to protect its territory.

 

[DragonFaerie]

see, for me it's simpler. It's just that there is no evidence that there is one or two or three or many ....

 

All these terrible things are part of human condition. We've evolved to have these traits because sometimes they're or have been biologically advantageous, or they occur because there are errors in cellular replication or because or body chemistry gets messed up due to illness or exposure to chemicals or other agents.... .

 

The parasites that can enter our bodies and grow & develop and start eating our brains don't do it because any god thought this was a good thing or that we deserved it or are being punished. They're just fullfilling their evolutionary role. The lion that kills a child walking at the edge of town is not a sign the gods are mad or the family wasn't pious enough or a sign that Jesus wanted the child to go to heaven. It's just a predator killing to eat or to protect its territory.

 

 

Exactly.  Seems to me that if there were some fabulous, loving, benevolent god, he would fix these things.

[Joanne]

 

 

So why (for some of you) is the argument of free will not a valid argument for why a loving and omnipotent God does not intervene right here and now? 

 

He either intervenes:

 

When people are sick

Depressed

Suicidal

Possible miscarriage

Sick kids

Financial problems

Sexual assault

 

Or he intervenes selectively.

 

Therefore, he *chose* to intervene in my dd friend's juvenile rheumatoid arthritis but not my dd's.

 

So....if he is "loving", his love is narcissistic, conditional, arbitrarily given.

 

There is no other way. The free will argument from Christians is like Lee Strobel's work; circular and using the premise as the argument. (HIs premise - "God exists". His argument: Therefore, God exists. Conclusion: See?)

 

I can't and won't honor, cherish, obey, and worship a god that would kill all baby boys when he KNEW who/what the problem was (just one example).

[Murphy101]

I'm not only speaking about children but non of your response seem to apply to them and I'm no sure why there isn't ever an answer to that.

Er? What? *confused*

I think my answers also apply to children. I think innocent children suffer bc of the free will of humans to let it happen. Why do I think God permits this? Idk. Should God remove all children from the planet to avoid having adults inflict suffering? Should God start up some old time smiting again? Should God make us all barren so we can't ever have children suffering again? Should he have not given free will until age 25? Idk what answer you want but I don't claim to have answers either.

 

If God doesn't love his creation I wish he hadn't created me. I have no desire to be part of his game.

My parents openly said they wish they hadn't had children and they weren't very loving. I'm fairly happy to be alive though. Even in this crappy world. Mostly I figure it's their loss and try to make the best I can out of the life I have anyways.

 

So from my POV, wishing I wasn't alive just because of the emotion I was created in is just not something I get.

[Muttichen]

I am coming in late and I only read this last page, but the best analogy I ever heard to deal with the problem of suffering is that life is like a Rubik's cube.  We work hard to get one side together and try to keep it that way, but God sees the whole cube. He is holding it and turning it so that all of the sides will be perfect.  From our point of view, things often seem to be a mess, but we have to trust that eventually we will understand it all.

 

The Bible says that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance in what we do not see.  I don't expect to have all of the answers here on earth.

[Joanne]

I am coming in late and I only read this last page, but the best analogy I ever heard to deal with the problem of suffering is that life is like a Rubik's cube.  We work hard to get one side together and try to keep it that way, but God sees the whole cube. He is holding it and turning it so that all of the sides will be perfect.  From our point of view, things often seem to be a mess, but we have to trust that eventually we will understand it all.

 

The Bible says that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance in what we do not see.  I don't expect to have all of the answers here on earth.

 

 

My son can solve a Rubik's cube in less than a minute.

 

He'd save every child and hurting human, too, if he could.

 

[8circles]

Er? What? *confused*

I think my answers also apply to children. I think innocent children suffer bc of the free will of humans to let it happen. Why do I think God permits this? Idk. Should God remove all children from the planet to avoid having adults inflict suffering? Should God start up some old time smiting again? Should God make us all barren so we can't ever have children suffering again? Should he have not given free will until age 25? Idk what answer you want but I don't claim to have answers either.

 

 

My parents openly said they wish they hadn't had children and they weren't very loving. I'm fairly happy to be alive though. Even in this crappy world. Mostly I figure it's their loss and try to make the best I can out of the life I have anyways.

 

So from my POV, wishing I wasn't alive just because of the emotion I was created in is just not something I get.

OK. I guess I can't understand any of your responses then. That's OK, I don't need to and you say you aren't trying to offer answers anyway.

 

I don't believe love is only an emotion. If God created me and doesn't love me, no I don't want to play that game. No offense to any Hellenists, but I don't want Zeus to be real.