So what is the difference between boys and girls?

[Dory]

I have to admit, I'm in a relatively sheltered area. We don't have a very large LGBT community. I am just finding the conversations on boys feeling like girls and girls feeling like boys a little confusing sometimes. I've never thought anymore about gender then that boys have different body parts then girls. There is a general slight different that is perhaps average with boys and girls because of the hormonal differences, but really, there is such wild variation, I don't know if I would ever feel comfortable stating a hard fast description of what a girl is other then by stating what body parts the person has.

 

So how do you define boys and girls, and what does it mean to you if you hear someone say they don't feel like their gender?

 

I completely understand preferring one gender over another in relationships, and I'm not trying to start a debate here. I am just honestly wanting to understand more.

 

I would support my child regardless of whether I really understand or not. Just putting that extra bit out there.

[Slache]

I don't know, but I'm tired of everyone making a big hullabaloo out of it. If one of my kids does something untypical of their gender, like John's favorite color being pink or Mary preferring cars to dolls, people will comment 4 times out of 5. "Do you think he's gay?" No. I think he's a toddler. And people need to stop putting pressure on 12 year olds to define themselves. They're 12. They're hormonal. They're busy. Leave them alone.

 

ETA: I just realized that this could easily come across as a nasty reply to your post and I didn't mean it that way. I just think too much emphasis is placed on kids defining themselves and growing up, and too little is placed on finding themselves and being kids.

[MedicMom]

My kids are 4 and 2.

they have no real concept that boys and girls are "supposed" to do different things.

 

Of course they live in a household where Mommy fights fires and can cut apart a car with hydraulic tools, and Daddy cooks dinner.

 

So who knows how they will turn out.

[sunflowerlady]

Someone once posted a visual here that was called something like The Gender Bread Person". It was an educational visual aid that I found extremely informative and helpful.

 

Maybe someone could repost it or you could do a search.

[Mergath]

This will give you a good overview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

[catz]

I think this is an interesting diagram with all the pieces that are thought about when thinking about gender and identity.

 

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Genderbread-2.1.jpg

 

I really  don't think there is a huge trend in making exploration a big deal in young kids.  I guess I live in a very GLBTQ friendly area, but I do not see kids pigeon holed no matter what kind of exploration or behaviors they show as a young kid.  I don't see 12 year olds forced to chose something.  I see kids living authentically NOW.  My dd had a phase early on where all she wanted to wear was her brother's hand me down clothing and carry around her brother's star wars characters.  Some of her first words were the names of those Star Wars characters.  She would carry C3PO around quite obsessively.  The following year I couldn't get her into anything but pink or purple and NO PANTS.  Kids have phases.  That is normal.  If you have a happy child that crosses typical gender lines in some areas, that's perfectly great and fine and carry on.

 

Some kids can go beyond having a phase and get the point of working with doctors and psychologist and may receive a gender dysphoria diagnosis.  The kids that might receive a diagnosis may have led to that because of extended depression, anxiety, anger management, self loathing that is uncontrolled because they feel aren't able to live as their true selves.  Their parents may or may not have allowed them to explore this publicly.  Even kids that are diagnosed cannot do anything in the way of hormones until at least they approach puberty, and the earliest steps they might take are reversible.  I personally know a couple kids living through this - one young child and one teen.  It is FAR from an easy road and not one would chose.  I also know a 14 year old boy who just came out as gay.  He's physically very mature.  His father has struggled with this mightily.  My own 14 year old isn't interested in girls at all to this point from what any of us can tell.  ETA - my point being, the exact age or time when a child makes or announces or comes out these types of self discoveries can vary widely. 

 

ETA - the stats are that over 50% of those who ID as transgendered attempt suicide by age 20.  I think the ramifications of NOT allowing your child to live authentically as who they are can be much more dire than having a gender curious child want to explore for a year or 2 and then changes their mind.  I absolutely agree adults should not be pigeon holing children. 

[Tanaqui]

When children are in their preschool years, that's when they start formulating their gender identity. Gender identity is basically "what you feel like inside". As part of this, you often see that they are the "gender police" - little girls go through a princess stage, insist that every girl HAS to wear pink, refuse to read a book about bugs. Boys, likewise, might go through a trucks stage, throw a tantrum if asked to use a pink toy, and say loudly that books about princesses are FOR GIRLS. This is not because girls are innately drawn to pink and sparkly items, nor is it because boys are innately drawn to violent play and vehicles. They get their ideas about How To Be A Boy and How To Be A Girl by looking at the world around them. Little girls copy the behavior of other little girls and grown women in their culture, and little boys copy the behavior of other little boys and grown men, and they both pick up and internalize all the messages they get in the media about what's appropriate for each gender.

 

And then hopefully, as they grow up, they get a more nuanced view of the whole thing.

 

For most children, the person they feel like inside happens to match their genitals, and they have no problem acting like all the other kids of their apparent sex/gender.

 

Things can go a little screwy in two ways. First, you can have the strong-willed child who really hates the things, behaviors, attitudes, or stereotypes associated with their gender and doesn't want to play along. Their gender does match, but they're more or less non-conforming. Second, you can have a child who is willing to identify with their gender... but the person they feel like inside doesn't match their body.

 

ALL children start developing their gender identity at a young age. There's nothing strange about transfolk doing so at three or six. And often times these kids will be miserable. They'll assert "I'm really a boy" and instead of getting acceptance or at least indulgence they'll be shut down, hard. This is hurtful for a child - it's like if they came up to you and said "I really am a kid, not a dog" and you said "No, you're not", again and again and again.

 

All the research suggests it's better to just go along with your kid. It might be a stage, but it probably isn't, and in the end what they'll remember is whether or not you loved them for who they are.

 

What we told the girls is this: "People usually have either a penis and testicles or a vagina and a vulva. Usually, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. Sometimes somebody who feels like a girl has a penis, or somebody who feels like a boy has a vulva. That's pretty unusual, but it does happen. The important thing is that if somebody TELLS YOU they are a girl or a boy, you call them that. That's just being polite." This explanation isn't perfect, because it ignores the existence of people who are agender (don't particularly feel male OR female) or otherwise don't fit into the gender binary at all. However, as an initial explanation goes, I think it's not too shabby.

 

Gender identity isn't really related to sexual orientation. Gender identity is the person you are inside. Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to.

 

[Dory]

When children are in their preschool years, that's when they start formulating their gender identity. Gender identity is basically "what you feel like inside". As part of this, you often see that they are the "gender police" - little girls go through a princess stage, insist that every girl HAS to wear pink, refuse to read a book about bugs. Boys, likewise, might go through a trucks stage, throw a tantrum if asked to use a pink toy, and say loudly that books about princesses are FOR GIRLS. This is not because girls are innately drawn to pink and sparkly items, nor is it because boys are innately drawn to violent play and vehicles. They get their ideas about How To Be A Boy and How To Be A Girl by looking at the world around them. Little girls copy the behavior of other little girls and grown women in their culture, and little boys copy the behavior of other little boys and grown men, and they both pick up and internalize all the messages they get in the media about what's appropriate for each gender.

 

And then hopefully, as they grow up, they get a more nuanced view of the whole thing.

 

For most children, the person they feel like inside happens to match their genitals, and they have no problem acting like all the other kids of their apparent sex/gender.

 

Things can go a little screwy in two ways. First, you can have the strong-willed child who really hates the things, behaviors, attitudes, or stereotypes associated with their gender and doesn't want to play along. Their gender does match, but they're more or less non-conforming. Second, you can have a child who is willing to identify with their gender... but the person they feel like inside doesn't match their body.

 

ALL children start developing their gender identity at a young age. There's nothing strange about transfolk doing so at three or six. And often times these kids will be miserable. They'll assert "I'm really a boy" and instead of getting acceptance or at least indulgence they'll be shut down, hard. This is hurtful for a child - it's like if they came up to you and said "I really am a kid, not a dog" and you said "No, you're not", again and again and again.

 

All the research suggests it's better to just go along with your kid. It might be a stage, but it probably isn't, and in the end what they'll remember is whether or not you loved them for who they are.

 

What we told the girls is this: "People usually have either a penis and testicles or a vagina and a vulva. Usually, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. Sometimes somebody who feels like a girl has a penis, or somebody who feels like a boy has a vulva. That's pretty unusual, but it does happen. The important thing is that if somebody TELLS YOU they are a girl or a boy, you call them that. That's just being polite." This explanation isn't perfect, because it ignores the existence of people who are agender (don't particularly feel male OR female) or otherwise don't fit into the gender binary at all. However, as an initial explanation goes, I think it's not too shabby.

 

Gender identity isn't really related to sexual orientation. Gender identity is the person you are inside. Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to.

 

again though, If my dd were to say, "I feel like a boy." I'd wonder what she thought feeling like a boy meant. Does that simply means that she has some mental definition of what boys are and feels that she lines up with that better? Or does she wish she had a penis and feels her body has cheated her out of those parts? Or is it that she sees that society thinks that girls are supposed to dress and act in a certain way and she doesn't fit that?

 

I remember for most of my childhood I hated being a girl, but it was because of the imbalance of power I saw around me and that boys and men were given more power then girls and women. I didn't think there was any difference other then men being stronger and having a penis.

[Ravin]

again though, If my dd were to say, "I feel like a boy." I'd wonder what she thought feeling like a boy meant. Does that simply means that she has some mental definition of what boys are and feels that she lines up with that better? Or does she wish she had a penis and feels her body has cheated her out of those parts? Or is it that she sees that society thinks that girls are supposed to dress and act in a certain way and she doesn't fit that?

 

I remember for most of my childhood I hated being a girl, but it was because of the imbalance of power I saw around me and that boys and men were given more power then girls and women. I didn't think there was any difference other then men being stronger and having a penis.

 

The human brain is very complex, and what a child means when they say "I feel like a boy/girl" may change with time. Some children experience body dysphoria very early on, as young as they realize boys and girls generally have different bodies. Before puberty, those differences are actually not very significant to a child's life, beyond whether they can easily stand to pee or not.

 

Research shows that there is biological differentiation between male and female brains--not in an absolute way, but across a spectrum (just as there is a spectrum in the differentiation of genitalia, such that some people are born with some intermediary of the standard equipment). The points in gestation when the brain is exposed to hormones that program biological sex are different from the points in gestation when the gonads/genitals are exposed to hormones that program biological sex. Consequently, in some people, if the hormone balance gets off, they may be quite clearly either male or female-brained, but be born with intersexed genitals. Likewise, if the balance is off the other way, a mismatch between the brain's sex and the gonads/genitals can occur with normal-seeming genitals. When that happens, a person is likely to be transgender.

 

The genetics of sexual differentiation are not as simple as XX = girl and XY = boy, either.

 

Many transgender people seem to have brains that are hardwired for the sex opposite the other parts of their bodies. Since we look between the legs instead of at the brain to assign a sex to a newborn, a mistake is occasionally made--the brain is far more important than the gonads in determining one's sex/gender.

 

People who try to essentialize biological sex to dismiss transgender identities tend to disregard how complex biology is.

 

And all I've touched on here is biological sex. Gender is also a social construct associated with the biological sexes, and that social construct is just that--a construct, which varies from one culture to another (though some patterns tend to be very common, usually connected to the realities of biological necessity involved in childbearing). There is nothing inherently male or female about colors, occupations, or even parenting roles. All that stuff is determined by culture--learned human behavior.

[Dory]

The human brain is very complex, and what a child means when they say "I feel like a boy/girl" may change with time. Some children experience body dysphoria very early on, as young as they realize boys and girls generally have different bodies. Before puberty, those differences are actually not very significant to a child's life, beyond whether they can easily stand to pee or not.

 

Research shows that there is biological differentiation between male and female brains--not in an absolute way, but across a spectrum (just as there is a spectrum in the differentiation of genitalia, such that some people are born with some intermediary of the standard equipment). The points in gestation when the brain is exposed to hormones that program biological sex are different from the points in gestation when the gonads/genitals are exposed to hormones that program biological sex. Consequently, in some people, if the hormone balance gets off, they may be quite clearly either male or female-brained, but be born with intersexed genitals. Likewise, if the balance is off the other way, a mismatch between the brain's sex and the gonads/genitals can occur with normal-seeming genitals. When that happens, a person is likely to be transgender.

 

The genetics of sexual differentiation are not as simple as XX = girl and XY = boy, either.

 

Many transgender people seem to have brains that are hardwired for the sex opposite the other parts of their bodies. Since we look between the legs instead of at the brain to assign a sex to a newborn, a mistake is occasionally made--the brain is far more important than the gonads in determining one's sex/gender.

 

People who try to essentialize biological sex to dismiss transgender identities tend to disregard how complex biology is.

 

And all I've touched on here is biological sex. Gender is also a social construct associated with the biological sexes, and that social construct is just that--a construct, which varies from one culture to another (though some patterns tend to be very common, usually connected to the realities of biological necessity involved in childbearing). There is nothing inherently male or female about colors, occupations, or even parenting roles. All that stuff is determined by culture--learned human behavior.

 

I guess I'm just stuck because all I see gender is, is the genitalia. All the wild differences in the brain are what really matters. I mean, if someone was more male mentally and looked and acted in ways that were considered by society to be male, I would just kinda shrug and say so what. The variety of humans out there means that some girls will act and feel like that. I guess I've just never seen that as not being a girl too.

 

I guess then, I have just been seeing gender as their sex, and nothing more then?

[Guest submarines]

I struggle with this as well. What would be the brain differences between a girl who identifies as a girl but has characteristics we typically associate with boys and a girl who thinks she's a boy?

[Btervet]

I struggle to understand what it would feel like to not feel like my body matched my gender, but that is because my body does match my gender. 

 

I have very few traditionally female traits. I fit in much better with males than females. When it comes to socially constructed gender, I'd be a closer match to male stereotypes than females. However, I feel female, and always have. So for me, there is clearly a difference between gender identity (am I a boy/girl) and social stereotypes (boys like trucks, girls like princesses). I can't exactly explain what it means to feel female, but I know I do. I would assume that transgender people also feel their gender, regardless of social constructs or their biological sex. 

 

I do think it can be really hard to understand if your personal experiences have never separated the two. I know I struggle to understand, but I still obviously believe people when they say their gender and biological sex don't match. There is a big difference between a tomboy and a transgender male.

[Mergath]

I struggle to understand what it would feel like to not feel like my body matched my gender, but that is because my body does match my gender.

 

I have very few traditionally female traits. I fit in much better with males than females. When it comes to socially constructed gender, I'd be a closer match to male stereotypes than females. However, I feel female, and always have. So for me, there is clearly a difference between gender identity (am I a boy/girl) and social stereotypes (boys like trucks, girls like princesses). I can't exactly explain what it means to feel female, but I know I do. I would assume that transgender people also feel their gender, regardless of social constructs or their biological sex.

 

I do think it can be really hard to understand if your personal experiences have never separated the two. I know I struggle to understand, but I still obviously believe people when they say their gender and biological sex don't match. There is a big difference between a tomboy and a transgender male.

This is how I see it, too. The things I like to do, colors I'm attracted to, even the people I'm attracted to have no bearing on the part of my brain that tells me I'm a woman. I'm bisexual and attracted to men and woman, but that is completely separate from how I view myself. I think a lot of people have trouble wrapping their minds around that if it's the first time they're thinking about gender identity.

[Ravin]

I struggle to understand what it would feel like to not feel like my body matched my gender, but that is because my body does match my gender. 

 

I have very few traditionally female traits. I fit in much better with males than females. When it comes to socially constructed gender, I'd be a closer match to male stereotypes than females. However, I feel female, and always have. So for me, there is clearly a difference between gender identity (am I a boy/girl) and social stereotypes (boys like trucks, girls like princesses). I can't exactly explain what it means to feel female, but I know I do. I would assume that transgender people also feel their gender, regardless of social constructs or their biological sex. 

 

I do think it can be really hard to understand if your personal experiences have never separated the two. I know I struggle to understand, but I still obviously believe people when they say their gender and biological sex don't match. There is a big difference between a tomboy and a transgender male.

 

The brain mismatch can go deeper than things we associate with typical behaviors--many of which are culturally moderated/determined. You are exactly right that the outer trappings aren't what it's about when you enter transgender territory. I know a number of trans women who are basically tomboys--they still like quite a few "typical guy things" and don't feel the need to dress up in a skirt and lipstick everyday. There's a difference between "female" and "feminine" and between "male" and "masculine." Deep down, there's a sense of physical wrongness involved in being transgender. That's what's called "gender dysphoria." The hormone biochemistry one's brain expects is not what the endocrine system produces, for one thing. Just hormone therapy alone can make a big difference for a lot of transgender people, with respect to things like depression.

 

The brain is the determining factor for who we are. Bodies can change. They can be maimed, they can be altered, they can be atypical in development. Sometimes they need fixing. And it's so much easier to fix the body than the brain! When something is wrong with a person's body, we fix it if we can and try to help them cope if we can't. That is exactly the approach taken with medical transition for transgender adults (and, less commonly, some adolescents): fix what can be fixed, physically, and help the person learn to cope with what can't be fixed.

 

If you think of it as "the brain is the baseline and the body is where the problem lies" then transgender identities make more medical sense.

[Tanaqui]

I guess I'm just stuck because all I see gender is, is the genitalia. All the wild differences in the brain are what really matters. I mean, if someone was more male mentally and looked and acted in ways that were considered by society to be male, I would just kinda shrug and say so what. The variety of humans out there means that some girls will act and feel like that. I guess I've just never seen that as not being a girl too.

 

I guess then, I have just been seeing gender as their sex, and nothing more then?

 

More or less, yes, that's what you've been doing.

 

The truth is that genitals are almost never important in day to day life. If you meet a young child who introduces themself as "Jamie", you don't ask them to drop their trousers so you know if they're a girl Jamie or a boy Jamie. You make your guess based on outward clues, which you know could be right or wrong. :)

 

I suspect that in addition to the spectrum of gender identity there is a spectrum of, well, gender caring. I bet some people - cisgender or otherwise - care a heck of a lot more about being male or female than others do. For those people who don't care much at all, the idea of this feeling being super important can be a little baffling. I get that.

[gardenmom5]

a book you might find interesting is "why gender matters" by Dr. Leonard Sax.  after years of his patients parents telling him he should write a book - he finally did.  He pulled in research from all over - including having some scientists/specialists in their fields review the pertinent chapters.

 

 

It gives a whole new meaing to the "10 things only women understand"  - the difference between bone, ecru, cream, off-white . . . . .  when you know that there is a physiolgoicaly difference in the eyeball between men and women.  the number of cones vs rods are different.  men are wired to see motion, and women are wired to see texture.    you can give the eyeball to the pathologist running the study and he'd tell you if it was a man or a woman - based on the number of cones and rods.  there will be differences within the group - but across the group the differences hold.

[Dory]

a book you might find interesting is "why gender matters" by Dr. Leonard Sax.  after years of his patients parents telling him he should write a book - he finally did.  He pulled in research from all over - including having some scientists/specialists in their fields review the pertinent chapters.

 

 

It gives a whole new meaing to the "10 things only women understand"  - the difference between bone, ecru, cream, off-white . . . . .  when you know that there is a physiolgoicaly difference in the eyeball between men and women.  the number of cones vs rods are different.  men are wired to see motion, and women are wired to see texture.    you can give the eyeball to the pathologist running the study and he'd tell you if it was a man or a woman - based on the number of cones and rods.  there will be differences within the group - but across the group the differences hold.

 

Thank you, I'll look that up.

 

ETA: I'm finding just the product description on Amazon rather disturbing. "boys are more aggressive; girls are more shy" ? I grew up in a world that did not believe in gender fluidity. I was a rather aggressive girl. competitive. I didn't have a shy bone in my body as a kid. It was taught to me. It wasn't who I was naturally. I have a little boy who is soft and gentle. He is sensitive and shy. I have had to work very hard with him to help him handle himself socially. From what I've seen, it's horribly damaging to push that boys have to be pushy, aggressive, harsher people, and girls have to be meek, shy, gentle people. Soft gentle boys are not unmanly.

 

Also, as for seeing colour, my youngest ds can name more colours then I can.

[go_go_gadget]

Thank you, I'll look that up.

 

ETA: I'm finding just the product description on Amazon rather disturbing. "boys are more aggressive; girls are more shy" ? I grew up in a world that did not believe in gender fluidity. I was a rather aggressive girl. competitive. I didn't have a shy bone in my body as a kid. It was taught to me. It wasn't who I was naturally. I have a little boy who is soft and gentle. He is sensitive and shy. I have had to work very hard with him to help him handle himself socially. From what I've seen, it's horribly damaging to push that boys have to be pushy, aggressive, harsher people, and girls have to be meek, shy, gentle people. Soft gentle boys are not unmanly.

 

Also, as for seeing colour, my youngest ds can name more colours then I can.

 

The color thing has to do with the fact that some of the genes for the color-seeing cones in the eyes are on the X-chromosome, so women have a chance of getting two copies. It's not a guarantee, so it isn't true for all women. It's the same reason men are more likely to be color-blind (if their one chance at those cones is faulty). 

 

Totally with you on the behavioral stereotype concerns, though.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have no real clue, but I am SO thankful that my kids can for the most part be themselves.  My 9 year old boy, for example, adores MLP, pink, sparkly, etc.   He seems to have picked up on the fact not everyone would think that was cool, but at home he can be who he really is.  It makes me pretty sad that stuff like this is such a big deal for some people . I almost think it's easier to be a girl because worst thing anyone might say is you are a bit of a "tomboy", but for the most part I don't think that would invoke rage and disgust for most people.  But a boy..he's only supposed to like certain things and suck it up.  I've even experienced that attitude here on the board and it makes me sad.

 

I don't have any sort of particular feeling that says to me "I feel like a girl/woman".  I just don't.  But then I've never walked in a boy's/man's shoes so who knows maybe it's different. 

 

My favorite color is green.  I hate pink.  Both my boys love pink.  My mother adored pink and bought all pink stuff for me.  I never cared for it.  But whatever it is just a color. 

[SKL]

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.  :)

 

I have a person close to me who was frequently referred to as "all boy" during most of his growing-up years.  He grew up to be very big and strong and the girls would swoon for him all up and down the street.  Imagine everyone's surprise when he came out.

[LucyStoner]

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. :)

 

I have a person close to me who was frequently referred to as "all boy" during most of his growing-up years. He grew up to be very big and strong and the girls would swoon for him all up and down the street. Imagine everyone's surprise when he came out.

This all boy sterotype speaks to the stupid cultural bias we have that gay men are somehow less manly or less men than straight men. My brother is married to a very stereotypically "man's man". I know a lot of gay men like my BIL. I also know a lot of straight men like my husband- who are less stereotypical in their hobbies, strengths and weaknesses. They are all "all boy."

[LucyStoner]

It was actually my brother transitioning that made me question and discard a lot of my previous notions of gender as nothing more than a meaningless social construct. Clearly there were other gender differences if this was something so important and critical to his well being.

[Dory]

This all boy sterotype speaks to the stupid cultural bias we have that gay men are somehow less manly or less men than straight men. My brother is married to a very stereotypically "man's man". I know a lot of gay men like my BIL. I also know a lot of straight men like my husband- who are less stereotypical in their hobbies, strengths and weaknesses. They are all "all boy."

 

Yes!! Again, the definition of what a man is seems so oddly, narrowly defined and doesn't match up with the reality of what I've seen. Can a man not be a man and like other men? Is a woman not a woman if she likes other women? If a soft, gentle nurturing man not a man? I get frustrated at the odd, narrow definitions of manhood and womanhood.